Sounds like the same story my buddy game me when he testdrove a Mazda MX3 with the dealer. Took a hairpin, 90 degree turn at 70. Able to take 0.88 gs in the corner! Also, I believe it is the same on the highway.
Hmmm new Mini same as the old MX3 without the quality?
While I'm definitely going to go test drive the Mini-S before I make a purchase, I have to admit, I've heard that exact same story with more cars than I can count.
There have been reports that the C230 and ML have been driving overall MB quality down.
I've heard of only one problem that begins to make me concerned, namely the gas sender failures that are reportedly tied to a supplier change being sensitive to US Oxy-fuel chemistry.
There are also some squeak-n-break problems that have been reported, but these seem to be associated with the optional sunroof. Since I didn't get a sunroof, they are of no consequence to me.
Personally, I've had my C230K for 6 months now and it now has 5K miles. My only attributable problem to date is a burned out courtesy light for the driver's sunvisor's vanity mirror; not a big deal. I also have an unattributable problem in that my cup holder won't retract, but that's because I broke it.
Insofar as websites that document someone's pet peeve complaints, that's merely an application of a new medium to an old habit. For example, there's a guy who's got a "Lemon" parked on a flatbed across the street from the MB dealership in Milford, DE. He's been there nearly ten (10!) years. I see him every time I go visit my parents. Nothing new about people who simply can't let go.
And IMO, the story related at http://www.troublebenz.com/ kind of looks that way to me. This guy's complaining to the dealer about rock dings on his doors & tailgate, which is hardly something they can control. It just takes one trip through the parking lot with the salt spreader truck's spray wheel misadjusted to do a lot of damage (I've seen an SUV's rear window shattered by just such an event). I'm afraid that this guy will never be satisfied no matter what is offered; it would appear that they're trying to lose his business so as to cut their losses.
FWIW, I had major problems with my Saab. One key thing is to know how to write an effective customer complaint, and by me doing so, they coughed up over $2K to help pay for out-of-warranty repairs. I fully admit to not searching every page of this slow-loading MB complaints website, but I didn't see a single example of a well written, clear and articulate customer complaint in any of the pages I read.
Handling was nice, interior was overdone but tolerable, I thought it was sluggish performance-wise, low end torque is really lacking. My GTI (even stock) blows an S' doors right off. I am keeping tabs on aftermarket performance modifications for the S as it would definately benefit from upping the HP by 50 or so. A lot of the companies that modifiy VW's are turning their attention to the MINI. I was on the MINI S waiting list at my local dealer for a year and a half before it was available in the U.S.. I was #14 on the S waiting list the day my dealers doors opened and was offered an Electric Blue S about a month after the S became available. I passed and got my $1k deposit back - I was not that impressed. A MINI S will be on my compare list in a couple of years when I'm in the market for my next Hot Hatch. My list will include:
Golf V 4Motion GTI BMW 1 Series Audi A3 - not confirmed they'll import it MINI S C230K WRX And whatever else may be comparable
I'll want to keep total investment of the car and modifications to $30k tops - I want to be able to modify it to 300 HP and have rear or all wheel drive to be able to handle that kind of performance.
I was really impressed with the C230K it is a quality piece through and through. Nice and roomy and excellent performance. It really feels like a Benz. I doubt they are all that trouble prone, probably typical first year design problems that are probably already worked out. The main reason I didn't get one is it's increadably expensive to tweak - aftermarket performance modifications cost a bundle. Plus aftermarket support for the GTI is awesome, I'd have over $30k is a base C230K to get the type of performance my GTI has for $22 to $23K. The C230k was a close second to the GTI on my last compare list - MINI S was a distant third.
They quote surveys done by respected automotive groups (JD Powers, etc.) on the quality issue. Hey, if it means anything, I have talked to owners of the C230 at an autoshow, and they were raving how smooth it was, and how quick it was (reason the powertrain was rated highly of the C230 in these surveys as well).
Finally, squeeking brakes really do not have anything to do with the quality of the car. There are many sprays that can quiet this.
I'm very picky about my cars and wouldn't give the GTI a second look. It's only 'marginally' quicker than the Mini S (despite the very tall 1st gear on the Mini S) and the GTI handles like a pig in comparison. There's no question which one is more refined. The Mini S is light years better in nearly every respect, especially the suspension, gearbox, and steering. The only hot hatch in the same league as the Mini S might be the Audi S3, but that's not available in the US. Don't take my word for it, check out C&D. The GTI finished 3rd in a 3-car comparo vs. the Civic Si, and SVT Focus. Enough said.
Muffin man said, "While I'm definitely going to go test drive the Mini-S before I make a purchase, I have to admit, I've heard that exact same story with more cars than I can count." ===== Muffin_man....Test one with DSC (Dynamic Stability Control)...I guess what I'm reading means there is computer control to help you take a corner FAST and attempt to break some laws of normal car physics. I'm just learning about it now and its not normal in most cars besides BMW's. If you couple that technology with some fundamentals about this car and the history of this car, you will find that your other comparisons are limp.
===== RickRover...most of the cars you are talking about are much more than $23K when all is said and done with half the features of the MINI "out the door". I'm sure that most and definetly the GTI is faster than the MINI-S. And slightly less than wonderful performance is pretty typical with a supercharger at low revs because of how they work. If you want to spend endless $$$'s, try adding a cheap bottle of N(O) in the truck to the supercharger on the MINI.
But, you know the biggest thing is that this car is FUN and DIFFERENT and that says more than what 100 less than boxy GTI's could say. I'm pretty sure that the GTI is going to be one of the fastest cars you've got there...but if you don't care about expense you should add the Honda S2000 to your list cause at least that car looks sweet.
Here's the Edmunds comparisons for the vehicle class your looking at...the fastest cars are still the Z28 and Mustang hands down. And, if you want after market, I can't think of 2 better cars...So if speed is all that matters, you need to look at those two cars.
"But, you know the biggest thing is that this car is FUN and DIFFERENT and that says more than what 100 less than boxy GTI's could say"
Personally I find a 1.8t GTI more "fun" than a Cooper (haven't driven an S yet) so to each his own. With all the people I see buying Minis and talking about how different the car they drive is, I wonder if a GTI purchase would actually be more "different." And if it's boxy, it's the most gorgeous boxy car I've seen, so to each his own I guess.
What's up with this need to be "different" anyway? If I like a car, I don't care if it's the same car everyone else likes.
They quote surveys done by respected automotive groups (JD Powers, etc.) on the quality issue.
On the JDP survey, McNews reported: "... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems."
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone.
First off, with the increase in electronics in all cars, this is the #1 growth area for problems. My wife's Audi has been in the shop probably a half dozen times in the past 2 years and every single time, its been an "electronic" problem (typically some sensor) and not a "mechanical" one.
Second, one of the nuances of the German car industry is that they have had a culture of craftsmanship for decades: a craftsman would "fine tooth comb" every car built and thereby assure low defect rates. The subtlety here is that between the basic assembly jobs were looked down upon (because they weren't a true craftsman) and because they had a repairman at the end of the production line to fix their errors, their assembly quality really was pretty poor. This changed in the late '80s/90's, when the German car industry realized that they were pricing themselves out of the market. They recognized that that craftman fixing things at the end of the line was a very high cost contributor, so they sought to reduce/eliminate it. Part of their response was to bring in consultants who were experts in production quality and efficiency, namely the Japanese. IIRC, every single German car manufacturer has *very quietly* had them in to their factories to make changes (including Porsche). This is a big cultural change for them, and there will inevitably be some teething pains. But the benefit is that there's now a MB available for Finally, squeaking brakes really do not have anything to do with the quality of the car.
"First off, with the increase in electronics in all cars, this is the #1 growth area for problems. "
I totally agree, the more systems you add that can go wrong, the more chance they can go wrong.
Interestingly enough, my dad's Lexus with 80K miles, and all sorts of bells and whistles and electronics has only had fuse go in respect to the front signal light in the time he has had the car.
Another words, there are much more areas for cars to go wrong, but there are better engineering practices and tools to prevent these items from breaking in a reasonable amount of time.
"They squeak? News to me."
- Just commenting on one of the problem areas you quoted being associated with the MB.
"On the JDP survey, McNews reported: "... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems."
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone."
So you agree with me, in the entry level luxury market, the C230 has been a black sheep for MB in terms os quality issues.
"First off, with the increase in electronics in all cars, this is the #1 growth area for problems. "
I totally agree, the more systems you add that can go wrong, the more chance they can go wrong.
Yes, there's that element, but there's also the "learning curve" reliability issue for new stuff, and a lot of the electronics in cars today are still low on the relative maturity curve. It doesn't help that the automakers want to avoid the expensive of using MILSPEC grade electronics, too.
One piece of news on this front is that the automakers have learned that automotive 12v DC systems are pretty bad for modern electronics, and has been contributing towards their reliability problems. This is why the Automakers have been researching alternative power systems, and it looks like they're agreeing to move to a new (IIRC) 42v power standard. Reportedly, that change will be in new cars by ~2005, at least in hybrid (mixed power) form.
- - -
"On the JDP survey, McNews reported: '... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems.'
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone."
So you agree with me, in the entry level luxury market, the C230 has been a black sheep for MB in terms of quality issues.
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that it shouldn't be a terrible shock to anyone that most reliability problems on any new car today is more frequently related to electronics and not Engine/Drivetrain.
Insofar as the question of if the C230K is a MB "black sheep", that's really a loaded question, because it is a conglomerate that has to do with how well its been performing, how well its customers expected it to perform, and how well MB expected it to perform. Only the first of these can be objectively measured, and even then, care must be taken to be similarly objective in measuring significance.
Expectations are a funny thing. I'm reminded of a coworker who loved his car and praised its reliability to high heaven ... in no small part because he was able to forgive the car for having two complete transmission failures as only being a "minor" problem.
In this regards, anyone who's expecting "something for nothing" has unrealistic product expectations.
So there is a good chance for there to be more bugs than some of the more established luxury entry level vehicles. Even so, I was just pointing out that the C230, in its infancy has had reliability problems and bugs. There is a chance these bugs will be fixed, and thus bringing the quality of the C230 up to other vehicles made by MB, but as it stands now, there are quality issues with it.
Another thing to keep in mind, the ML series has been out since '98 and continues to be hampered by the same reliability problems and bugs (see Consumer Reports, even though this issue has been mentioned in other car magazines).
No need to get all huffy because someone doesn't think the MINI is the end-all be-all hatchback. . In deciding on the GTI I took many things into account - bottom line I wanted the fastest, best handling hatchback I could get for around $23k and I got it with my GTI. Granted in stock form the GTI had some areas that needed addressed, all of which the aftermarket has solutions for.
I've read the comparison tests, the main area the GTI fails is the soft suspension. They rave about material quality, engine performance, safety features, etc. Any stock vehicle is a compromise, it's manufacterer builds what will sell. For some reason VW puts an overly soft suspension on the U.S. GTI - VW even offers Eibach sport springs in their GTI accessorie catalog that are covered by the new car warranty. Bottom line here are the areas I didn't like about the stock GTI and what I did to address them - this was all planned out before I drove it home, most were done before it had 2k miles on it:
Suspension - To tighten it up I installed Neuspeed racing springs, upper front stress bar and 25mm rear sway bar. Whenever the original struts/ shocks wear out I'll install a set of Bilstiens. This suspension is very aggressive, I live in the sunbelt so potholes are not an issue. Sport springs aren't nearly as aggessive as the racing springs and are a great compromise. My GTI will easily hang with any MINI S in handling - easily. That's with the 17" all season Michilin Pilot sports it came with - I can't wait for them to wear out so I can put stickier rubber on it as well (I'm doing my best :-) All told I have $700 in suspension upgrades so far - including installation. As tight as this suspension is it still isn't punishing at all, just VERY controlled, no lean and extremely neutral.
Shifter - It's a little on the rubbery side, not too bad, but the throws are a little long too. Spent a little over $100 on a Diesel Geek shifter - there are a lot of after market shift linkages on the market for VW's, this is by far the best - www.dieselgeek.com. Simply amazing transformation very nice, tight snick, snick shifter, beyond perfect in every way.
Engine performance - Out of the box the turbo GTI has one of the sweetest engines of any car in this class - 180 HP stock walks all over the competition. But why stop there when you can easily get another 60 HP out of it so it literally stomps all over everything in it's class at 240+ HP. APR ECU upgrade - again, lots of choices here, APR is by far the best www.goapr.com $500, another area that boosted engines benefit from is better breathing in and out. In- K&N air filter in the factory box $50(a must), Neuspeed turbo air intake - allows 70% more flow into the turbo ($230), Out - Neuspeed turbo downpipe ($200) and Eurosport low restriction exhaust ($450) (not loud at all, nice mellow low rumble very, very nice) all prices installed.
So bottom line is about $2,300 in aftermarket tweaks for an excellent handling, increadable performing, blast to drive, little beast - I love this car. It really can't be compared to anything stock in this forum. I paid (after haggling) a little over $20k for my 2002 GTI with luxury package and 17" wheels - so $23k for this GTI as it sits - amazing value for this kind of all around performance. It will absolutely run circles around a MINI S in every way.
I actually had a friend take me on a 90 degree turn, DSC flashing ride in a 330ci, but only at about 45. I can't imagine at 65, but I think if a salesman had the nerve to pull that kind of stunt on me, I'd have to buy the car.
"In fact, the Cooper exudes such an immense sense of stability that you can go into a corner at a much higher speed, toss it around, and the car steadily tracks the road with confidence. Our slalom test revealed that the Mini can thread through the cones with moderate understeer and keep a blistering average speed of 67.6 mph, besting any current BMW, any Ferrari, and most Porsches. The skidpad test showed the modest steady-state grip of the Cooper's winter tires, with the car exhibiting heavy understeer and barely holding on at 0.79g. Just imagine what lower-profile higher-performance standard 15-in. dry-weather tires would do to improve the Mini's cornering grip."
"blistering average speed of 67.6 mph, besting any current BMW, any Ferrari, and most Porsches."
Hmmm - From Road and Track - Mazda MP3 - 68.5 mph.
I guess the Mazda MP3 is some time of god in terms of handling! Mike, you may want to either go find a dealer who might have one left, wait for the Mazdaspeed Protege to come out, or just buy a used MX3. Then you can have the ultimate handling in automobiles.
Here is another interesting comparison. A Hyundai Tiburon V6 at 65.2 mph outperforms a BMW M5 at 64.7 mph! Man so I guess all those people buying the M5 for $70K on up are just wasting their money when they can get a Tiburon for under $20K that clearly out performs it!
Yes, I think very highly of that slolom time, NOT!
But the issue for me was resolved yesterday when I showed my wife the websitepics (360s and such) and she decreed that such a thing would not get parked in our driveway. Oh, well. Guess I can skip that test drive.
Questions for the Mini-mes out there.
How long does it take to get used to the speedo in the center?
How does one get the national flags on the roof? I was palying around with the build-your-own area of the site but couldn't find how to select that and what the cost might be.
Mikey - did you notice what I did to my suspension? Totally transformed it for the track - it will run circles around any stock MINI - granted the MINI will have a more comfortable ride, but I prefer go cart/ tight handling charicteristics with absolutely no lean or sway. This is my preference, it's definately not for everyone - to each his own. I also like a LOT of power and 240 HP in a Golf has me grinning from ear to ear every time I drive it. I've modified a lot of cars I've owned, mostly 3 series BMW's - this Golf is by far one of the most entertaining vehicles I've ever owned.
Now I'm looking forward to modifying a Golf V 4Motion either the 2.0 liter turbo (stock 200 HP) or a 3.2 VR6 (stock 240 HP) in either case it would be a larger turbo to bring the 2.0 to 300 HP or add a supercharger to the 3.2 for over 300 HP, in either case I'd be looking a $4k in just the engine modifications alone.
Just a little history - last year when I was in the market for a car when I was on the waiting list for the MINI S, I was also on the list for an E46 M3 at the same BMW dealer. I did a ton of research and comparing what exactly I wanted this car for. I know how I am - I would have been very reluctant to take the M3 to the track beating on it, plus after the price of admission doing modifications to it would be a stretch. After a few months of exploring my options MINI S, M3, GTI etc. etc. and considering I'd have to use the M3 has my daily driver - I ended up with an X5 3.0 for my daily driver and the modified GTI for my weekend track/ autoX/ blast around in car. After a year with both, the X has 6k miles on it and the GTI has 11k - I drive the X only when I have clients to shuttle around, the rest of the time I'm in the GTI.
Why does it surprise you that your heavily modified GTI has tighter suspension that an unmodified Mini? If your GTI runs that well just imagine what you could do with a much tighter and lighter car like the Mini? You could argue that there is greater aftermarket support for the VW, but it has also been out for a long time. I'll bet the market for go-faster mini parts will grow to equal the VWs in less time than it took the VW after-market to get established.
"blistering average speed of 67.6 mph, besting any current BMW, any Ferrari, and most Porsches."
Hmmm - From Road and Track - Mazda MP3 - 68.5 mph. --- You can ignore the slolom test and all the other tests...and surely you can put $5-10K into your car and eventually turn it into a better car. But 67.6 is with a "PLAIN-JANE" Cooper and with crappy, large, all season radials because that's the only car they could get to test. I suspect the S will easily surpass both the Cooper and the Mazda.
The Cooper S is not the "fastest" car and I'm sure its not the "most" agile car...but I got $60K BMW options for just $21K.
In an accident, my car decides "how" to deploy its "6" SIX different air bags and how much to fill each one, disconnects the battery, turns off the engine, unlocks the door, and turns on the hazard lights while I'm checking for my body for injury.... You got quite a bit more money to spend my friends.
I guess I could wait for the version that calls the police coming out next summer but I'd rather lease and upgrade later thank you.
Its ok, I understand you got a lot of money in your car and you want to defend it. I have another car too and I'll decide later if I need to sell it.
How long does it take to get used to the speedo in the center? --- Well I don't take deliver for another 8 weeks...but hell I don't look at the speedo when in its in front of me... lol
How does one get the national flags on the roof? I was palying around with the build-your-own area of the site but couldn't find how to select that and what the cost might be. ---- Its a dealer "add-on". Basically a big sticker. I'm sure each dealer charges something different. I have a sun roof so I can't do the flag bit...
The flag is a big sticker? I don't like that idea too much. What about the rally stripes on the hood, are they decals too?
I'll check back with you in 8 weeks to see if the center speedo is annoying in reality as it looks in the photos. Don't need to encourage more back driving commentary from the co-pilot, as it were.
I just saw that with the nav system the speedo goes back to the steering column, but you lose the temp gauge. Just can't win.
is no problem. You can use it on the test drive and don't notice it as a problem after a few days of ownership. The tach is right in front and pretty soon you know what speed you're going (too fast usually) just by looking at the tach and knowing what gear you're in.
Yep, flags and stripes are decals. Supposed to be a good "new kind" of decal, but who knows?
A Mazdaspeed Protege would kill a Mini S in the slolom. I never really gave much credence to slolom tests anyway. They rely way too much on human error and impreciseness.
That's so true about slalom tests- I like to AutoX, not that good at it yet. It is mostly skill - I've seen a guy in a Dodge Shadow beat a C5 Corvette on the track.
Want an interesting read? click on New below select the MINI and the Consumer Rating on the right - Lots of interesting reading there - the unhappy ones are REALLY unhappy. I've never noticed this feature here before - then check out the GTI and/ or Golf Consumer Rating :-)
I think this MINI hype is about to die down real quick, I'm glad I wasn't blinded by the hype and cuteness and saw it for what it is - too small, too slow and way overdone - almost cartoonish, it does handle really well out of the box though.
but to each his own. He is also 60+ years of age, and has it done up like you would not believe. From what I have heard and read, it is a blast to drive, and handles extremely well. The only thing is, I could not convince my parents to get into it regardless of crash tests and safety features. They would want me to rent a car if I was to pick them up at the airport! It just looks way too small.
For comparison's sake I checked them out on the Altima and found much more agreement. Seems a lot of Mini buyers had inflated expectations and their negative comments reflect their disappointment. The comments about engine cut outs are disturbing. It will be interesting to see what CR has to say in a few years.
When I went to the Mini board, they were thrilled with the car and hyping it like no tomorrow. Of course I was reading the board right after the Mini came out, and have not read it since.
I haven't followed the real mini thread much to have a feel for the current approval rating.
There still seems to be a substantial faction of folks who are in love with the car.
Elsewhere on Town Hall I've seen people comment about the worthlessness of anecdotal evidence, but when you read the customer comments it seems everyone trusts their own anecdotal evidence to be the Truth.
Somehow I had missed the whole customer comment section before, so I looked through the ones that pertain to the cars that interest me. There are people who will never buy a Honda product again because of a problem with an RSX. Another praises the impeccable build quality and technical excellence of the car.
I looked through the RSX, Altima and Matrix section in addition to the Mini. The ranges of scores is much smaller for the other cars when compared to the Mini. The Altima, almost universally panned for its interior had a low score of 5 or so and most seemed to be high 8 and low 9s. In contrast the mini has two camps the 9 and 10 crowd and the ones. Not like any other car that I looked at. Love it or hate it. You're not allowed to be neutral.
But many people report on these websites that most of the problems have been taken care of. Still, BMW lately has not had a great deal of success with build quality with completely new models. The X5 has also had its share of quality problems.
The Mini is small, handles very well, will have a very harsh ride to some, and comes with many features. As a result you will either love it for its uniqueness, great handling, and zip, or hate it for its size, ride, and other factors. It is a niche car.
something that keeps me wary. Time and again I have read glowing reviews of new models only to see those reviews sour after the teething troubles of the cars become apparent.
I think in the Mini's case inflated expectations are a prime factor in the lows marks given by the disaffected reviewers.
BTW, we can close this thread now. I have found out what the best hot hatch really is.
Give me a break....you people can't be that stupid. These internet surveys are worthless. One moron (and theres quite a few on this board) could put in 60 negative reviews under names like intro, phender, era97ick....
You are right they are funny to read, smoke coming out of the engine, and such. Obviously there's quite a few people that feel bad in their ugly GTI box, getting their butts handed to them by a street legal Go-Kart.
I think I'll put some negative ones in the GTI reviews...what do you think? Can you find which ones are me?
Here's a link to the 'faults and fixes' thread on the mini2.com forum. It's far more specific and credible. I'm aware of the reported problems but don't think these are a big deal. Still plan on getting the Mini S in November.
The specifics of the consumer reviews are not what is interesting. It is the polarity of the views for the mini. There are no blasé comments. Look at any other car and you will see a spread of reviews that reflect a range of opinions. In the case of the mini, there seems to be no middle ground. People seem to love it or hate it, while with other cars there is a a spread of ratings.
Your posts exemplify this trend as well. You are firmly pro-mini and that's fine. It would seem there are more of you than the anti-minis. But where are the fence-sitters? I don't see any.
"something that keeps me wary. Time and again I have read glowing reviews of new models only to see those reviews sour after the teething troubles of the cars become apparent."
- So true. Have seen new models get heaped on with praise by car magazines, only to be cast aside when the next new "hip" vehicle comes out. Makes me scratch my head.
"Give me a break....you people can't be that stupid. These internet surveys are worthless. One moron (and theres quite a few on this board) could put in 60 negative reviews under names like intro, phender, era97ick....
You are right they are funny to read, smoke coming out of the engine, and such. Obviously there's quite a few people that feel bad in their ugly GTI box, getting their butts handed to them by a street legal Go-Kart.
I think I'll put some negative ones in the GTI reviews...what do you think? Can you find which ones are me? "
- Sounds mature, unbiased, unpartial, and realistic to me! LOL! Minimike - I have not driven or rode in a Mini, but have heard it is a blast to drive. To assume that your opinion on the car is the only one that counts is ridiculous. Also, since it is a new model, new division, and in a new factory, there are expected to be initial problems with the car. This is especially true from a manufacturer that has a reputation of having problems on first releases, but then to correct them later.
One last comment, Minimike - so you would prefer to have the Mini over a Porsche 911 (not including costs)?
The specifics of the consumer reviews are not what is interesting. It is the polarity of the views for the mini. There are no blasé comments. Look at any other car and you will see a spread of reviews that reflect a range of opinions. **** Actually, almost any car I check is for the most part "just" positive things. But, you are right there seem to be a lot of people "jealous" of the mini....
I'm not pro-mini per se....I just have driven one. Most of the people commenting haven't. You can read those comments and find that most are "made-up". So, granted, there are some people really jealous of the mini.
- Sounds mature, unbiased, unpartial, and realistic to me! LOL! Sounds like you got my point...credit yourself with a few clicks above moron
Minimike - I have not driven or rode in a Mini, obviously
To assume that your opinion on the car is the only one that counts is ridiculous. No, the opinion of someone who has never driven the car would certainly be more valuable
Also, since it is a new model, new division, and in a new factory, there are expected to be initial problems with the car. This is true but the problems really only boil down to 3 issues, squeeky seats (well in general the seats seem to have a lot of issues), Fuel irregularities, some leak roofs reported, and the obvious shift linkage problems. I had a Honda Accord once, the supposed reliable car and things where falling off that car every day, we went through 3 radios and about 10 recalls....I have never had any car besides a Toyota without problems.
One last comment, Minimike - so you would prefer to have the Mini over a Porsche 911 (not including costs)? Since we are talking about LaLa land, I'll take a Lamborghini. That car will past everything except a gas station and a service repair station.
You testdrive a Mini, now any comment below god-like refering to the Mini is made up. If the person does not love the Mini, and does not feel it is the most superior coupe on the planet, they are obviously jealous of the car. These assumptions you made reeks of immaturity.
The opinions that I give about driving characteristics and performance come directly from car magazines, which you freely quote to show the virtues of the car. You can not have it both ways - the car is great because xxx magazine says so, your information from magazine XXX does not count since you never drove one. I have stated the reason I have never drove one is because I have no interest in the car anyway. For me, it is impracticle (not enough space for every day use), seems too small (especially with a curb weight starting around 2300 lbs. (C&D)), I do not like the interior (yes, I have see it in person), I am turned off by the exterior looks, and have issues with quality and maintenance with a completely new model, built in a completely new factory, from a completely new division of BMW. Another words, I have not interest in the Mini. If this is me being jealous, then I guess I am a very jealous person.
hahahaha.. When I graduated from high school Jimmy Carter was president, do you know who he is? Anyway, I'm specific talking to you....it sounds like you have a solid understanding why you don't like the car. I think there are quite a few kids on this board though.
Like you said in an early thread the mini is my 3rd card so I don't really care about practicality. And, my company is going to lease it for me.
If I was looking for practicality I would get a Volkswagen Phaeton 4MOTION W-12
"I have stated the reason I have never drove one is because I have no interest in the car anyway."
I am not trying to start a flame war, but if you have no interest in one of the most significant hot hatches to come our way maybe since the last CRX, what are you doing on this thread? Do you like any of the Hatches we are talking about?
Its more like a mini sedan. It doesn't even belong in the group of cars you are comparing it to. You've got some hatchback boxes, a mini sedan, and a couple of real sports cars in there. Why not just compare every car to the Mini instead of limiting it to those few? Most of the cars on your list for me have a rather "tired" look...the only other car in the list I would ever consider is a Celica.
I came to this list because I was looking at the Mini and you posted this on the Mini Discussion Town Hall. Don't post it on the Mini Town Hall if you don't want me to talk about it. If you go post it on the Civic Si Town Hall, you certainly wouldn't hear a peep out of me...
IS a hatchback. You can't go making a new category "German-Redesigned compact British cult cars built in Oxford with german pieces" and declare your favorite to be the winner.
The mini is a polarising car. A lot of people find it interesting, stylish, fashionable, fun to drive blah blah blah. There are others, though apparently smaller in number, who hate it because it is too small, too quirky, too fashionable, too much Mr. Bean.
To say that these folks are somehow jealous of a car is mistaken. How can a person be jealous of a car.
Within my family, I predisposed to like the mini because it is different and my taste in cars is more european anyway. My wife thinks it is a box and claims that it would make me Austin Powers and my son Mini-me. She even calls it the Mini-me car. Now if Martha Stewart or Oprah drove one, we might get a different tune out of her.
I have my own concerns about the mini, and would want to wait until say, the third model year to see what CR has to say about it before I go plunk down money for the car.
IS a hatchback. You can't go making a new category "German-Redesigned compact British cult cars built in Oxford with german pieces" and declare your favorite to be the winner. I just did. Its no more of a hatchback than my SUV is. My SUV has a hatch and the seats fold back by the way.
No way, the mini will never be fashionable. Its way to off in left field to be fashionable and accepted by mainstream like the PT or Bug. Also, they will never make as many and their tiny factory can only put out 1/12 what these other manufacturers can. They'll raise the price first.
Comments
Hmmm new Mini same as the old MX3 without the quality?
Yes, it was.
FWIW, one RWD hatch thats available new today is the Mercedes C230K. Base is $26K. Add the 17" wheel package (~$800) and you're set.
-hh
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/03/18/mercedes.htm
http://www.troublebenz.com/
(thanks from gekko2 on the "Lexus vs. Mercedes and BMW: Who wins in Quality, Value, and Service?" board
There have been reports that the C230 and ML have been driving overall MB quality down.
I've heard of only one problem that begins to make me concerned, namely the gas sender failures that are reportedly tied to a supplier change being sensitive to US Oxy-fuel chemistry.
There are also some squeak-n-break problems that have been reported, but these seem to be associated with the optional sunroof. Since I didn't get a sunroof, they are of no consequence to me.
Personally, I've had my C230K for 6 months now and it now has 5K miles. My only attributable problem to date is a burned out courtesy light for the driver's sunvisor's vanity mirror; not a big deal. I also have an unattributable problem in that my cup holder won't retract, but that's because I broke it.
Insofar as websites that document someone's pet peeve complaints, that's merely an application of a new medium to an old habit. For example, there's a guy who's got a "Lemon" parked on a flatbed across the street from the MB dealership in Milford, DE. He's been there nearly ten (10!) years. I see him every time I go visit my parents. Nothing new about people who simply can't let go.
And IMO, the story related at http://www.troublebenz.com/ kind of looks that way to me. This guy's complaining to the dealer about rock dings on his doors & tailgate, which is hardly something they can control. It just takes one trip through the parking lot with the salt spreader truck's spray wheel misadjusted to do a lot of damage (I've seen an SUV's rear window shattered by just such an event). I'm afraid that this guy will never be satisfied no matter what is offered; it would appear that they're trying to lose his business so as to cut their losses.
FWIW, I had major problems with my Saab. One key thing is to know how to write an effective customer complaint, and by me doing so, they coughed up over $2K to help pay for out-of-warranty repairs. I fully admit to not searching every page of this slow-loading MB complaints website, but I didn't see a single example of a well written, clear and articulate customer complaint in any of the pages I read.
-hh
Golf V 4Motion GTI
BMW 1 Series
Audi A3 - not confirmed they'll import it
MINI S
C230K
WRX
And whatever else may be comparable
I'll want to keep total investment of the car and modifications to $30k tops - I want to be able to modify it to 300 HP and have rear or all wheel drive to be able to handle that kind of performance.
I was really impressed with the C230K it is a quality piece through and through. Nice and roomy and excellent performance. It really feels like a Benz. I doubt they are all that trouble prone, probably typical first year design problems that are probably already worked out. The main reason I didn't get one is it's increadably expensive to tweak - aftermarket performance modifications cost a bundle. Plus aftermarket support for the GTI is awesome, I'd have over $30k is a base C230K to get the type of performance my GTI has for $22 to $23K. The C230k was a close second to the GTI on my last compare list - MINI S was a distant third.
Finally, squeeking brakes really do not have anything to do with the quality of the car. There are many sprays that can quiet this.
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Muffin_man....Test one with DSC (Dynamic Stability Control)...I guess what I'm reading means there is computer control to help you take a corner FAST and attempt to break some laws of normal car physics. I'm just learning about it now and its not normal in most cars besides BMW's. If you couple that technology with some fundamentals about this car and the history of this car, you will find that your other comparisons are limp.
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RickRover...most of the cars you are talking about are much more than $23K when all is said and done with half the features of the MINI "out the door". I'm sure that most and definetly the GTI is faster than the MINI-S. And slightly less than wonderful performance is pretty typical with a supercharger at low revs because of how they work. If you want to spend endless $$$'s, try adding a cheap bottle of N(O) in the truck to the supercharger on the MINI.
But, you know the biggest thing is that this car is FUN and DIFFERENT and that says more than what 100 less than boxy GTI's could say. I'm pretty sure that the GTI is going to be one of the fastest cars you've got there...but if you don't care about expense you should add the Honda S2000 to your list cause at least that car looks sweet.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/47901/article.html
Personally I find a 1.8t GTI more "fun" than a Cooper (haven't driven an S yet) so to each his own. With all the people I see buying Minis and talking about how different the car they drive is, I wonder if a GTI purchase would actually be more "different." And if it's boxy, it's the most gorgeous boxy car I've seen, so to each his own I guess.
What's up with this need to be "different" anyway? If I like a car, I don't care if it's the same car everyone else likes.
Mike
On the JDP survey, McNews reported: "... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems."
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone.
First off, with the increase in electronics in all cars, this is the #1 growth area for problems. My wife's Audi has been in the shop probably a half dozen times in the past 2 years and every single time, its been an "electronic" problem (typically some sensor) and not a "mechanical" one.
Second, one of the nuances of the German car industry is that they have had a culture of craftsmanship for decades: a craftsman would "fine tooth comb" every car built and thereby assure low defect rates. The subtlety here is that between the basic assembly jobs were looked down upon (because they weren't a true craftsman) and because they had a repairman at the end of the production line to fix their errors, their assembly quality really was pretty poor. This changed in the late '80s/90's, when the German car industry realized that they were pricing themselves out of the market. They recognized that that craftman fixing things at the end of the line was a very high cost contributor, so they sought to reduce/eliminate it. Part of their response was to bring in consultants who were experts in production quality and efficiency, namely the Japanese. IIRC, every single German car manufacturer has *very quietly* had them in to their factories to make changes (including Porsche). This is a big cultural change for them, and there will inevitably be some teething pains. But the benefit is that there's now a MB available for Finally, squeaking brakes really do not have anything to do with the quality of the car.
They squeak? News to me.
-hh
I totally agree, the more systems you add that can go wrong, the more chance they can go wrong.
Interestingly enough, my dad's Lexus with 80K miles, and all sorts of bells and whistles and electronics has only had fuse go in respect to the front signal light in the time he has had the car.
Another words, there are much more areas for cars to go wrong, but there are better engineering practices and tools to prevent these items from breaking in a reasonable amount of time.
"They squeak? News to me."
- Just commenting on one of the problem areas you quoted being associated with the MB.
"On the JDP survey, McNews reported: "... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems."
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone."
So you agree with me, in the entry level luxury market, the C230 has been a black sheep for MB in terms os quality issues.
I totally agree, the more systems you add that can go wrong, the more chance they can go wrong.
Yes, there's that element, but there's also the "learning curve" reliability issue for new stuff, and a lot of the electronics in cars today are still low on the relative maturity curve. It doesn't help that the automakers want to avoid the expensive of using MILSPEC grade electronics, too.
One piece of news on this front is that the automakers have learned that automotive 12v DC systems are pretty bad for modern electronics, and has been contributing towards their reliability problems. This is why the Automakers have been researching alternative power systems, and it looks like they're agreeing to move to a new (IIRC) 42v power standard. Reportedly, that change will be in new cars by ~2005, at least in hybrid (mixed power) form.
- - -
"On the JDP survey, McNews reported: '... better than competitors for engine performance, braking and transmission but "significantly worse" in interior controls, electronics and heating and cooling systems.'
This should not be a terrible shock to anyone."
So you agree with me, in the entry level luxury market, the C230 has been a black sheep for MB in terms of quality issues.
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that it shouldn't be a terrible shock to anyone that most reliability problems on any new car today is more frequently related to electronics and not Engine/Drivetrain.
Insofar as the question of if the C230K is a MB "black sheep", that's really a loaded question, because it is a conglomerate that has to do with how well its been performing, how well its customers expected it to perform, and how well MB expected it to perform. Only the first of these can be objectively measured, and even then, care must be taken to be similarly objective in measuring significance.
Expectations are a funny thing. I'm reminded of a coworker who loved his car and praised its reliability to high heaven ... in no small part because he was able to forgive the car for having two complete transmission failures as only being a "minor" problem.
In this regards, anyone who's expecting "something for nothing" has unrealistic product expectations.
-hh
Another thing to keep in mind, the ML series has been out since '98 and continues to be hampered by the same reliability problems and bugs (see Consumer Reports, even though this issue has been mentioned in other car magazines).
In deciding on the GTI I took many things into account - bottom line I wanted the fastest, best handling hatchback I could get for around $23k and I got it with my GTI. Granted in stock form the GTI had some areas that needed addressed, all of which the aftermarket has solutions for.
I've read the comparison tests, the main area the GTI fails is the soft suspension. They rave about material quality, engine performance, safety features, etc. Any stock vehicle is a compromise, it's manufacterer builds what will sell. For some reason VW puts an overly soft suspension on the U.S. GTI - VW even offers Eibach sport springs in their GTI accessorie catalog that are covered by the new car warranty. Bottom line here are the areas I didn't like about the stock GTI and what I did to address them - this was all planned out before I drove it home, most were done before it had 2k miles on it:
Suspension - To tighten it up I installed Neuspeed racing springs, upper front stress bar and 25mm rear sway bar. Whenever the original struts/ shocks wear out I'll install a set of Bilstiens. This suspension is very aggressive, I live in the sunbelt so potholes are not an issue. Sport springs aren't nearly as aggessive as the racing springs and are a great compromise. My GTI will easily hang with any MINI S in handling - easily. That's with the 17" all season Michilin Pilot sports it came with - I can't wait for them to wear out so I can put stickier rubber on it as well (I'm doing my best :-)
All told I have $700 in suspension upgrades so far - including installation. As tight as this suspension is it still isn't punishing at all, just VERY controlled, no lean and extremely neutral.
Shifter - It's a little on the rubbery side, not too bad, but the throws are a little long too. Spent a little over $100 on a Diesel Geek shifter - there are a lot of after market shift linkages on the market for VW's, this is by far the best - www.dieselgeek.com. Simply amazing transformation very nice, tight snick, snick shifter, beyond perfect in every way.
Engine performance - Out of the box the turbo GTI has one of the sweetest engines of any car in this class - 180 HP stock walks all over the competition. But why stop there when you can easily get another 60 HP out of it so it literally stomps all over everything in it's class at 240+ HP. APR ECU upgrade - again, lots of choices here, APR is by far the best www.goapr.com $500, another area that boosted engines benefit from is better breathing in and out. In- K&N air filter in the factory box $50(a must), Neuspeed turbo air intake - allows 70% more flow into the turbo ($230), Out - Neuspeed turbo downpipe ($200) and Eurosport low restriction exhaust ($450) (not loud at all, nice mellow low rumble very, very nice) all prices installed.
So bottom line is about $2,300 in aftermarket tweaks for an excellent handling, increadable performing, blast to drive, little beast - I love this car. It really can't be compared to anything stock in this forum. I paid (after haggling) a little over $20k for my 2002 GTI with luxury package and 17" wheels - so $23k for this GTI as it sits - amazing value for this kind of all around performance. It will absolutely run circles around a MINI S in every way.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=45&page=4
(BTW, this is the mini cooper and not even the s)
Talk is cheap...I bought this car today. I take delivery in 8 weeks. I hope to see that GTI...
Hmmm - From Road and Track - Mazda MP3 - 68.5 mph.
I guess the Mazda MP3 is some time of god in terms of handling! Mike, you may want to either go find a dealer who might have one left, wait for the Mazdaspeed Protege to come out, or just buy a used MX3. Then you can have the ultimate handling in automobiles.
Here is another interesting comparison. A Hyundai Tiburon V6 at 65.2 mph outperforms a BMW M5 at 64.7 mph! Man so I guess all those people buying the M5 for $70K on up are just wasting their money when they can get a Tiburon for under $20K that clearly out performs it!
Yes, I think very highly of that slolom time, NOT!
But the issue for me was resolved yesterday when I showed my wife the websitepics (360s and such) and she decreed that such a thing would not get parked in our driveway. Oh, well. Guess I can skip that test drive.
Questions for the Mini-mes out there.
How long does it take to get used to the speedo in the center?
How does one get the national flags on the roof? I was palying around with the build-your-own area of the site but couldn't find how to select that and what the cost might be.
Now I'm looking forward to modifying a Golf V 4Motion either the 2.0 liter turbo (stock 200 HP) or a 3.2 VR6 (stock 240 HP) in either case it would be a larger turbo to bring the 2.0 to 300 HP or add a supercharger to the 3.2 for over 300 HP, in either case I'd be looking a $4k in just the engine modifications alone.
Just a little history - last year when I was in the market for a car when I was on the waiting list for the MINI S, I was also on the list for an E46 M3 at the same BMW dealer. I did a ton of research and comparing what exactly I wanted this car for. I know how I am - I would have been very reluctant to take the M3 to the track beating on it, plus after the price of admission doing modifications to it would be a stretch. After a few months of exploring my options MINI S, M3, GTI etc. etc. and considering I'd have to use the M3 has my daily driver - I ended up with an X5 3.0 for my daily driver and the modified GTI for my weekend track/ autoX/ blast around in car. After a year with both, the X has 6k miles on it and the GTI has 11k - I drive the X only when I have clients to shuttle around, the rest of the time I'm in the GTI.
Hmmm - From Road and Track - Mazda MP3 - 68.5 mph.
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You can ignore the slolom test and all the other tests...and surely you can put $5-10K into your car and eventually turn it into a better car. But 67.6 is with a "PLAIN-JANE" Cooper and with crappy, large, all season radials because that's the only car they could get to test. I suspect the S will easily surpass both the Cooper and the Mazda.
The Cooper S is not the "fastest" car and I'm sure its not the "most" agile car...but I got $60K BMW options for just $21K.
In an accident, my car decides "how" to deploy its "6" SIX different air bags and how much to fill each one, disconnects the battery, turns off the engine, unlocks the door, and turns on the hazard lights while I'm checking for my body for injury.... You got quite a bit more money to spend my friends.
I guess I could wait for the version that calls the police coming out next summer but I'd rather lease and upgrade later thank you.
Its ok, I understand you got a lot of money in your car and you want to defend it. I have another car too and I'll decide later if I need to sell it.
---
Well I don't take deliver for another 8 weeks...but hell I don't look at the speedo when in its in front of me...
How does one get the national flags on the roof? I was palying around with the build-your-own area of the site but couldn't find how to select that and what the cost might be.
----
Its a dealer "add-on". Basically a big sticker. I'm sure each dealer charges something different. I have a sun roof so I can't do the flag bit...
I'll check back with you in 8 weeks to see if the center speedo is annoying in reality as it looks in the photos. Don't need to encourage more back driving commentary from the co-pilot, as it were.
I just saw that with the nav system the speedo goes back to the steering column, but you lose the temp gauge. Just can't win.
Yep, flags and stripes are decals. Supposed to be a good "new kind" of decal, but who knows?
Want an interesting read? click on New below select the MINI and the Consumer Rating on the right - Lots of interesting reading there - the unhappy ones are REALLY unhappy. I've never noticed this feature here before - then check out the GTI and/ or Golf Consumer Rating :-)
I think this MINI hype is about to die down real quick, I'm glad I wasn't blinded by the hype and cuteness and saw it for what it is - too small, too slow and way overdone - almost cartoonish, it does handle really well out of the box though.
For comparison's sake I checked them out on the Altima and found much more agreement. Seems a lot of Mini buyers had inflated expectations and their negative comments reflect their disappointment. The comments about engine cut outs are disturbing. It will be interesting to see what CR has to say in a few years.
I haven't followed the real mini thread much to have a feel for the current approval rating.
There still seems to be a substantial faction of folks who are in love with the car.
Elsewhere on Town Hall I've seen people comment about the worthlessness of anecdotal evidence, but when you read the customer comments it seems everyone trusts their own anecdotal evidence to be the Truth.
Somehow I had missed the whole customer comment section before, so I looked through the ones that pertain to the cars that interest me. There are people who will never buy a Honda product again because of a problem with an RSX. Another praises the impeccable build quality and technical excellence of the car.
I looked through the RSX, Altima and Matrix section in addition to the Mini. The ranges of scores is much smaller for the other cars when compared to the Mini. The Altima, almost universally panned for its interior had a low score of 5 or so and most seemed to be high 8 and low 9s. In contrast the mini has two camps the 9 and 10 crowd and the ones. Not like any other car that I looked at. Love it or hate it. You're not allowed to be neutral.
The Mini is small, handles very well, will have a very harsh ride to some, and comes with many features. As a result you will either love it for its uniqueness, great handling, and zip, or hate it for its size, ride, and other factors. It is a niche car.
I think in the Mini's case inflated expectations are a prime factor in the lows marks given by the disaffected reviewers.
BTW, we can close this thread now. I have found out what the best hot hatch really is.
Peugeot 206!
You are right they are funny to read, smoke coming out of the engine, and such. Obviously there's quite a few people that feel bad in their ugly GTI box, getting their butts handed to them by a street legal Go-Kart.
I think I'll put some negative ones in the GTI reviews...what do you think? Can you find which ones are me?
http://www.mini2.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=b54275b079979853cdbd75e020053820&forumid=16
Your posts exemplify this trend as well. You are firmly pro-mini and that's fine. It would seem there are more of you than the anti-minis. But where are the fence-sitters? I don't see any.
- So true. Have seen new models get heaped on with praise by car magazines, only to be cast aside when the next new "hip" vehicle comes out. Makes me scratch my head.
You are right they are funny to read, smoke coming out of the engine, and such. Obviously there's quite a few people that feel bad in their ugly GTI box, getting their butts handed to them by a street legal Go-Kart.
I think I'll put some negative ones in the GTI reviews...what do you think? Can you find which ones are me? "
- Sounds mature, unbiased, unpartial, and realistic to me! LOL!
Minimike - I have not driven or rode in a Mini, but have heard it is a blast to drive. To assume that your opinion on the car is the only one that counts is ridiculous. Also, since it is a new model, new division, and in a new factory, there are expected to be initial problems with the car. This is especially true from a manufacturer that has a reputation of having problems on first releases, but then to correct them later.
One last comment, Minimike - so you would prefer to have the Mini over a Porsche 911 (not including costs)?
****
Actually, almost any car I check is for the most part "just" positive things. But, you are right there seem to be a lot of people "jealous" of the mini....
I'm not pro-mini per se....I just have driven one. Most of the people commenting haven't. You can read those comments and find that most are "made-up". So, granted, there are some people really jealous of the mini.
Sounds like you got my point...credit yourself with a few clicks above moron
Minimike - I have not driven or rode in a Mini, obviously
To assume that your opinion on the car is the only one that counts is ridiculous.
No, the opinion of someone who has never driven the car would certainly be more valuable
Also, since it is a new model, new division, and in a new factory, there are expected to be initial problems with the car.
This is true but the problems really only boil down to 3 issues, squeeky seats (well in general the seats seem to have a lot of issues), Fuel irregularities, some leak roofs reported, and the obvious shift linkage problems. I had a Honda Accord once, the supposed reliable car and things where falling off that car every day, we went through 3 radios and about 10 recalls....I have never had any car besides a Toyota without problems.
Since we are talking about LaLa land, I'll take a Lamborghini. That car will past everything except a gas station and a service repair station.
The opinions that I give about driving characteristics and performance come directly from car magazines, which you freely quote to show the virtues of the car. You can not have it both ways - the car is great because xxx magazine says so, your information from magazine XXX does not count since you never drove one. I have stated the reason I have never drove one is because I have no interest in the car anyway. For me, it is impracticle (not enough space for every day use), seems too small (especially with a curb weight starting around 2300 lbs. (C&D)), I do not like the interior (yes, I have see it in person), I am turned off by the exterior looks, and have issues with quality and maintenance with a completely new model, built in a completely new factory, from a completely new division of BMW. Another words, I have not interest in the Mini. If this is me being jealous, then I guess I am a very jealous person.
When I graduated from high school Jimmy Carter was president, do you know who he is? Anyway, I'm specific talking to you....it sounds like you have a solid understanding why you don't like the car. I think there are quite a few kids on this board though.
Like you said in an early thread the mini is my 3rd card so I don't really care about practicality. And, my company is going to lease it for me.
If I was looking for practicality I would get a Volkswagen Phaeton 4MOTION W-12
I am not trying to start a flame war, but if you have no interest in one of the most significant hot hatches to come our way maybe since the last CRX, what are you doing on this thread? Do you like any of the Hatches we are talking about?
Its more like a mini sedan. It doesn't even belong in the group of cars you are comparing it to. You've got some hatchback boxes, a mini sedan, and a couple of real sports cars in there. Why not just compare every car to the Mini instead of limiting it to those few? Most of the cars on your list for me have a rather "tired" look...the only other car in the list I would ever consider is a Celica.
I came to this list because I was looking at the Mini and you posted this on the Mini Discussion Town Hall. Don't post it on the Mini Town Hall if you don't want me to talk about it. If you go post it on the Civic Si Town Hall, you certainly wouldn't hear a peep out of me...
The mini is a polarising car. A lot of people find it interesting, stylish, fashionable, fun to drive blah blah blah. There are others, though apparently smaller in number, who hate it because it is too small, too quirky, too fashionable, too much Mr. Bean.
To say that these folks are somehow jealous of a car is mistaken. How can a person be jealous of a car.
Within my family, I predisposed to like the mini because it is different and my taste in cars is more european anyway. My wife thinks it is a box and claims that it would make me Austin Powers and my son Mini-me. She even calls it the Mini-me car. Now if Martha Stewart or Oprah drove one, we might get a different tune out of her.
I have my own concerns about the mini, and would want to wait until say, the third model year to see what CR has to say about it before I go plunk down money for the car.
I just did. Its no more of a hatchback than my SUV is. My SUV has a hatch and the seats fold back by the way.
No way, the mini will never be fashionable. Its way to off in left field to be fashionable and accepted by mainstream like the PT or Bug. Also, they will never make as many and their tiny factory can only put out 1/12 what these other manufacturers can. They'll raise the price first.