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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...
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I talked to the owner and you can drop in a factory fresh 302/5.0l 325 hp stock, with this kit for about $10K. Even though it is a highly modified car, it can, by the owners words pull low 13's to high 12's in the 1/4 mile. Wouldn't you love to pull up next to a Mustang, Camaro or even a Vette and smoke them?
I thought it's a station wagon.....
I, however, definitely call the Protege5 a wagon (or "sportwagon" if you're really picky).
OH, by the way, someone back there mentioned the Saab as not being considered a hatchback. Ya know they do make hatchback (3-door) 9-3 Saabs, right? Unfortunately, that is all changing. They've decided that the new design will be available in sedan form only. They feel the availability of the hatchback is killing sales because it makes them seem low-class. (this is according to an article in the recent Car and Driver)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Infiniti discredited themselves when the last Q45 had a 4.2 liter engine. That's called .. cheating.
But my guess, for the US market, to somewhat differeniate it from the 626, yet still tying into a replacement for the 626...by just leaving out the 26
I know performance gets us talking, but one major aspect of the Hot Hatch is real world usability. It is a balance between being fun and practical that makes them special. Sure the RSX may have an edge on the GTI in the performance realm, but can it haul 4 people or large boxes as easily and comfortibly.
IMO the car that offers the best balance is the WRX wagon. So it may be more of a wagon than a hatch, but it is (just) under 25k, offers blistering performance and can carry a whole lot of stuff. Of course for this comparison the price is very high. If price is a factor I think the car with the best balance is either the Civic Si or the SVT Focus. (I haven't driven the Si yet so I am not sure which I would choose yet)
WRX wagon is the bomb - lots of power and all wheel drive with a lot of aftermarket tunability in a totally usable package.
I have to get out and test an SVT and Si just for grins. I've never been up against an RSX but I'd think a stock GTI turbo would give it a good run since the GTI has so much low end torque, same with the VR6 GTI. Of course my 240 HP turbo GTI would blow an RSX's doors right off.
Wait until the next level of performance for our cars hits in a couple of years. That's when we'll be talking 300 HP and all wheel drive in our little cars, - can't wait.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I heard Alfa will be back for 2004. I wonder how they will define success and how much effort they will expend to get back in over here.
Will they bail in a year or two?
With whom do they partner to get a bunch of dealers set up quickly? I can't see them being as big a deal as the Mini was/is.
Yes, the rumours also state that they will be sold from Saab or Cadillac showrooms. HOWEVER, if from Saab, I think the 147 is even less likely. Nothing like direct competition for the Saab wagon sitting right across the showroom floor. The Spider on the other hand....
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't think the 147 would infringe on SAAB. The 147 competes against the VW Golf. The 156 sportwagon could dent the SAAB wagon sales though. I can't recall seeing a SAAB wagon lately. There might not be a lot of sales to dent.
The 166 is bigger than the SAABs and would attract a different customer.
I dunno, I took a real liking to Alfa while I was in Italy, but I cringe thinking about CR will have to say about their reliability.
I really liked the 156 and might pick up a used one next time I go to Europe. The German TUeV has given the 156 good marks. Of course it has some weaknesses. Autobild, a german weekly, says the 156 has been reliable, with the following caveats:
The weatherstripping around the doors comes loose
The undercoating at the lift points is easily abraded.
The headlights fall out of adjustment for the lowbeams.
ABS sensors are prone to getting wet and causing the warning light to indicate.
If 2nd gear gets scratchy, then the tranny is about to fail.
Brakes are strong but aggressive, sporty driving causes excessive wear.
Paint problems are not unknown, the top layer can flake.
The TUeV summary states "From our examinations, the Alfa has more problems with the headlight adjustment than the average. In other areas the 156 shows its best side and is better than average. The test results for CV boots, brakes and rust on the frame and weight bearing components are exemplary. Here we can give the best grade possible: A+" - Rainer Fass, TUeV Rheinland/Berlin-Brandenburg.
Seems they got the rust thing licked.
Here's a shot of the 147
Anyway, much of this has been talked about over on the Alfa's Return to the US discussion board.
I guess where we're trying to fit it in here is with that 147 and the possibility of adding another Hot Hatch to this category sometime in the future. But its all speculation and really irrelevant at the moment. (I know, I know, we can dream, right?)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But hey, these days that design *must* be sexy, just look at all those creases in the sheetmetal.
The car was an "electrical" nightmare. Its like someone created it without the tinyest bit of an understanding of electricity.
FIAT has improved its game too. Most European manufacturers seem to have had trouble getting the electronics right. Audi is still having some trouble in the A6, or so I hear.
FIAT and Alfa underwent a kind of revitalization in the early to mid 90's kind of like Nissan and Mazda are trying to do now.
The bottom cut-outs of the bumper looks like where the opening for the mouth would good (assuming the bottom jaw-bone is still hinged) with a big tooth in the middle.
Behind the fascia, it sort of looks like a sexy Golf. The fascia is ugly though.
Speaking of Golfs, this is the special edition GTI we should have got.
http://www.carbc.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=15
This is more of a hyper hatch than a hot hatch. It is really hard to read that article though with no paragraphs... ughhh gave me a headache.
But if VW could demonstrate for a while that it can design electrical systems, and maybe, for the American audience (HINT) revive the Corrado... I might very well be there.
I saw two today. They look sweet. Kinda look like a Mini cooper with the scoop higher in the hood and more square in the front.
I think I may have to test drive...
Rabbit, Golf, GTI, even Jetta...the cars all look basically the same....I can't tell the difference until I see the name on the back.
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Rabbit, Golf, GTI, even Jetta...the cars all look basically the same....I can't tell the difference until I see the name on the back."
Well the Golf and GTI are the same car and the Jetta is just a golf with a trunk so it makes sense.
I'd hate to see FIAT lose its brand identity and become another cog in the faceless GM machine. I hate seeing the same product badged differently in different markets. Opel = Vauxhall = Pontiac/chevy. The Isuzu Rodeo was at one time available as the Rodeo, Honda Passport and Opel Frontera all at once. Bleh.
You forgot Saturn and Saab too. What ever happened to companies making their OWN cars?
Saab COULD have been a "hot hatch" until GM got their sedan-loving hands on it. If they buy Fiat, watch that body style disappear. VW and BMW will be the only ones making hatches...oh, and Ford (Focus..ugh!)
I wonder if the BMW 1-series will be considered as a "Hot Hatch?" Hopefully there'll be an M1 version.
VW's estimates are typically very conservative. They claim the 1.8t GTI has a 7.5 second 0-60, whereas magazines typically pull off 6.8.
So a "6.4 second" R32 could easily be 5.7 or better in a magazine test. About equal with a WRX in acceleration, I'd bet, only without you having to burn up your clutch (as much) to do that well.
Mike
VW's estimates are typically very conservative. They claim the 1.8t GTI has a 7.5 second 0-60, whereas magazines typically pull off 6.8.
Hmm, I thought normally, you can't get even close to what the manufacturer says...
Hmm, car and driver has this WRX zipping along with a quite a bit smaller gas hog...
"The clutch drop breaks the tires loose for only an instant, and then the WRX leaps off the line, scooting to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds and through the quarter in 14.1 seconds at 96 mph — both the best of the bunch. Turbo lag, however, rears its head in the top-gear tests where the Subaru trails from 30 to 50 mph."
Saturn at least looks different. Whatever happened to them beating the imports?
Saab still has its funkiness, but I question how long it will last.
GM has a special place on my scorn list. It's not just the whole muddled brand thing, which seems ever more common, it's the models that they have produced over the years. Things like the Fiero and Aztek. Seriously, how can a design team agree on these things? To me GM's product development has always been very short-sighted.
Speaking of hot hatches, anyone here familiar with the opel Tigra? First time I saw one, I thought it was cool. That was when I thought Opel was a real German company. Then I find out that it was a slick looking version of the Corsa (think Ford Fiesta) but was actually slower. People bought them for the looks and got beat at the light by the ugly econobox.
Corsa:
Tigra:
I saw two today. They look sweet. Kinda look like a Mini cooper with the scoop higher in the hood and more square in the front.
I think I may have to test drive... "
Is the MINI the only car on this forum you've tested???
You need to get out and test these cars for yourself - even the one's you don't think you'd ever be interested in - I did - they all have their points. It seems like you do your test drives through magazine articles. Forget what other people think - form you own opinion after driving these cars. The WRX is a sweet car - it's performance and personality trancends it's weird styling. The night I tested the WRX I (Audi/Subaru dealer) I tested Audi A4's, all engine choices with/ without Quattro/ CVT/ etc. etc.. I drove everything at the VW dealer including a TDI (diesel) Golf which I was very impressed with by the way. I even hit a Hyundai dealer and came away with a completly different attitude. I've actually sold 2 Hyundai's because I recommended people include them in their search for a compact sedan.
I'm taking a Civic SI and SVT Focus for a spin in the near future - two cars I have no interest in at all - I won't form an opinion until I drive something for myself.
Last year when I got my GTI I was on the waiting list for an E46 M3 - after test driving everything on the BMW lot - even stuff I never thought I'd be interested in (M5, 740, 530 wagon) I ended up with an X5 3.0 (my 4th Bimmer), then got the GTI about a month later after a ton of test drives and aftermarket research. I was on the MINI waiting list for over a year and a half when the doors finally opened on the MINI dealer. After a couple of test drives in an S I was just not that impressed - just my opinion. I could have had one of the first S' on the lot, I passed, got my deposit back and got the GTI.
Try to form your own opinion - the MINI ain't the only game in town. I am so glad I didn't get one or an M3 for that matter. But that's just my opinion, formed by a lot of test drives and research and analyzing what I will use the car for.
Get out there and test drive everything in this forum - you could end up with something you never thought you'd own and be really happy with it.
When I see that R32 I think Hmmmm:
240 HP + supercharger ($4k)= 320 HP R32 + $32k + $4k = $36k + other inevitable tweaks = $38k = no way
That R32 includes every conceivable option as standard equip. including rain sensing wipers, navigation, auto climate control etc, etc. stuff I would not want in my hot hatch
Car companies are so afraid to stick their necks out, but often when the do they are rewarded greatly. (just look a Subaru selling 3 times the number of WRXs than they had anticipated... it only took them how long to get it over here?)
BTW, how has the GTI been? Any problems or issues?