I doubt too many people who buy large SUV can actually afford them. They are in what I call "payments world" They were sold this large SUV because the lease was $XXX/month, not because it was a $40K vehicle.
I think when you define inflation you can not say that a Snickers bar cost $0.05 in 1973 and it costs $1.50 in 2003. In 1973 minimum hourly wage was somewhere in the $1.50 region. People who were making $30K a year were middle class, and houses in NYC area were in $30-40K region. Fast forward to 2003, minimum hourly wage is $5.75 or something, houses in NYC area are $400K and up. Yeah in the 60-early 70's a gallon of gas was $0.20. First of all, it was before the energy crisis, and secondly, it was not as pure as it it is these days. It may have been a simple distillate of crude oil, these days gasoline has tons of additives to make it burn cleaner, to clean the insides of the engine and not to hurt the catalytic converter. Speaking of which, before the EPA mandated catalytic converter, all of gasoline contained lead, to lubricate engine internals. But anyway, the only way to thwart people from buying large SUV's is through your local police department. SUV's are classified as trucks, they do not have to go for emissions like trucks, I think the local police department should ticket SUV drivers for: driving on Parkways, for driving in the left lane, for driving on streets that prohibit truck traffic, SUV's should obery the posted truck speed limits, SUV's should be charged truck rates for going over bridges and tunnels, and they have to stop at the weigh stations when they cross state lines. Local police ans state troopers should be enforcing the law!!!!! Petition your local sheriff, attorney general, ect.
Cops, who themselves drive gas guzzler Crown Vics, will not stop the SUV craze, because there are no laws being broken. Unfortunately, the law doesn't say anywhere that a light truck (not an 18 wheeler) can't be driven in the left lane or go over a bridge. Bridges usually have a weight limitation not a SUV vs. passenger car restriction. Same goes for weigh stations. Nice try, but not the answer. Put a $3/gal surcharge on gas and watch the SUV owners start buying VW Golf diesels. There's no other way. In Europe there are very few large SUVs for this very reason.
Good thing we live in America where we have the freedom to buy SUV's and Trucks. Also, Trucks make up almost half or more of the vehicles sold nowadays, so your "solution" to the SUV problem would not work. Each Police department would have to add hundreds of officers to make a dent on traffuc stops.
I am guessing you do not have a family and therefore do not need an SUV to haul your "stuff". Also, I notice you live in the Bronx. That local is not ideal for large SUV's.
In Europe there are very few large SUVs for this very reason.
Also because the urban areas all predate cars and don't all have streets or parking that can accomodate the leviathans. When I was stationed in Italy there was a guy who had brought over his prized full-size chevy truck. He barely drove it because most days he couldn't fit it down the street lined with little cars.
I don't know why SUVs are considered family vehicles now. Not that many familes really need to tow a bow or go off-road. The family vehicle used to be, and still is for some of us, the station wagon (goes nicely with along my MINI Cooper for fun, commuting and short trips).
A station wagon often gives you the same or more passenger and cargo room with better gas mileage and you can get a Subaru or other AWD solution if you often drive in snow. Better rollover characteristics too so the only time they are less safe than an SUV is when they are hit from the side by other SUVs and most good wagons come with side curtain airbags now which help a lot in that situation.
95% of people who buy SUVs have no real need for them. They live in a free land where they are allowed to buy them and it is their free choice but they don't need them. We don't need not hatches either -- we could all drive unfun vehicles for less money so we are pots calling the kettle black for complaining about their gas mileage and cost but I think SUV vs. station wagon is more wasteful than hot hatch vs. basic commuter hatch.
Europeans have just as much freedom as Americans. I said there are few big SUVs in Europe because they are costly to fuel. BUT, you can still drive whatever you like there - nobody is stopping you. If you want to drive a Hummer in Europe and pay $100 to fill the tank, you can! In fact, BP (British Petroleum) would probably love you for it. The gas tax revenue generated, would pay to undo the damage caused by the SUV in the first place. Tax on gas in Europe is about 85% of the cost of a gallon (sold in Liters). The basic cost of the fuel itself is about the same as in the US and is set by world oil prices.
If Americans have so much freedom, why can't I go out and buy a military tank and drive it on the street?
You could argue that Europeans have MORE freedom because their choice of vehicles is much larger than in the US. VW, for instance only sells in the US a small portion of what they make and sell in Europe. What about the Civic Type R, can't get one here, you can get one there though.
Just to kinda steer back on topic, there's a bunch of "hot hatches" that are available in Euro, but not here. Performance versions of VW's Polo, the SMART Roadster coupe, Ford's performance Focus (one step ABOVE the SVT mind you...what is it, the Cosworth or something?) are the ones that pop off the top of my head.
The VW Polo would be an interesting vehicle here in performance form (I think they make a GTI version in Europe, but I don't know off the top of my head). And for all I know (Haven't checked) GM might have a "hot hatch" of some sort over there too.
That tank thing is the most absurd thing I've ever read. Come on now, we both now that without regulation bumpers and airbags, you're never going to get a tank registered. A Bradley maybe, but a tank?
I highly doubt that people need 9 people seating capacity for a family of 4 (2 parents and 2 children) Most of the times I see SUV's, they are driven by a one female parental unit with the child strappe din the car seat in the middle of the rear seat. Are you telling me that she could not have fit the car seat and baby in an Accord, or Protege5? What about Cute-utes? A CR-V can haul 5 people with their luggage, while getting 25-28 mpg.
The reason they don't have SUV's in Europe is not the gas prices alone. They are taxed annualy based on the engine displacement. So a big haulking V8 will cost $2000 a year in taxes. I believe CT is the only state in the US that has annual property tax on cars. It is based on the value not on displacemnt, but still I paid $600 last year. An owner of a $50K vehicle, be it SUV or luxury car, pays about $1500-2000 a year. Now if they started charging tax beased on engine displacement, then we would have some sort of correlation to Europe.
Fish8, I used to live in The Bronx, and still visit as my family still lives there. You would not belive the number of white Escalades with gold rims and gold trim I see there, on top of the white Suburbans, and white Navigators. They are the worst, they all have aftermarket HID's that are out of focus, and when they are either approaching toward you of from behind, there is no where to hid from the piercing light.
I really hope the rising prices just force SUV's to stay home. Price increase from $1.60/gal to $2.00 changed my weekly gas allownce from $13 to $15. I bet you SUV owners are going to feel it when their credit card bills come in at the end of the month.
The real reason I hate large SUV's is that I can't see past them. When I was taught how to drive I was always told to look ahead, not right infornt, but ahead. To anticipate the un-expected. I was behind Hummer the other day. The only way I could see ahead was by lowering my head to see through under the Hummer.
I agree about trying to look around an SUV. It is a royal pain. I also agree that if all you need to carry is 1 child and none of the "extras" a full size SUV is not necessary. But, if you have children you will know what I mean, there is much more to carry than a child. Stroller, toys, pack 'N play etc.......
Believe me, we used to have a 1998 Accord and there was no way we could lug all our crap around. So, my Wife wanted a Tahoe and we bought one. And so far we/she loves it. Before my son was born, I looked at SUV's and thought the exact same thing as you. Why does anyone need that much car.
People need/want flexibility and capacity of a minivan, but since the image of the minivan is domesticated, dowdy, frumpy, stale, whatever, they opt for the SUV because it means they are independent, in control, have an active lifestyle etc. Nevermind that the facts of their lives aren't going to change. They aren't going to suddenly get into biking, hiking, rollerblading, base jumping, or any other outdoorsy activity simply because they bought a behemoth.
Instead of bling bling escalades, we need some sporty minivans like they have in Europe.
I TOTALLY agree with you. Minivans are more practical and consume less petrol. But, my Wife is the primary driver and therefore we bought the Tahoe. But, I am glad to say, my 2.0 Jetta tries to make up the difference is MPG.
you folks need to move this over to the "i don't like SUVs why do you" topic. Its a real hotbed for exactly this discussion.
That's why I won't even go into the fact that my wife's 8-passenger SUV gets almost the same mileage my sedan does as well as most minivans. You can read it all over there in past posts.
Besides, if all of us here were about saving gas, we wouldn't be looking at "hot hatches," we'd be getting their more economical counterparts. "Down with the gas-sucking Si and up with the Civic Hybrid!!"
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
No, I don't have kids. You have to have a wife to have kids first, lol
Minivans are not feul thrifty at all. They may best the SUV's by a gallon or two. I mean Ford windstar is rated 17/22 or something. It is as heavy as some lighter SUV's.
I agree, this is not the forum for "Ihate SUV's" So I will stop.
I was at the Honda dealer recently helping my sis buy a CRV. We did alot of sitting around because the F&I office was severely backed up. Anyway, I tried a few cars on for size while I was waiting. Sat in the S2000 (for the dozenth time or so), the Si, and the Accord coupe (actually drove this one with the 6-speed). I was suprised to find that I fit better in the S2000 than the Si (although neither would be suitable for more than an hour at a time for me). I don't get it. I am able to stretch my legs out just a hair further in the s2000. Now, granted, I can actually tilt the seat back in the Si, but it either needs a little more seat travel or it needs a tilt feature on the seat bottom. Really silly IMO.
oh, but I did find the civic gave more headroom than the Accord coupe. Again, i just don't get it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm just starting to look around for something to replace my '95 sedan. Since the wife has a great minivan ('03 MPV) that we love, we have the room for moving the kids (2 + 1 on the way). I'd like some advise on models to consider.
I'd like something fun to drive, that's good (doesn't have to be great) on gas, and has an auto tranny. My wife doesn't drive a stick, and teaching her could be the beginning of the end to a beautiful relationship. No need to rock the boat, so the auto tranny is a must-have. This car would be for my commute and for errands.
I'd prefer 5-dr over 3-dr, and more room in case I have to transport all 5 of us, but these are preferences. My price range is $18k - $24k. Drove both the Highlander & Forester and liked them, but they lacked something I can't pin down. My initial list includes:
Mini Coop (not "S", which doesn't come with A/T) VW Golf (had a '89 that I hated to sell, but it had a stick) Mazda Protoge5 (should I wait for the "3"?) Focus (SVT doesn't come w/ A/T) Rio 5-dr Elantra 5-dr Civic SI Vibe/Matrix '04 Prius Lexus IS300 (has more room, but could be used to meet price range)
Have I overlooked any? I'd appreciate help narrowing the field.
did you try out the Forester XT? That would be quicker than pretty much anything else on your list. The handling isn't stellar out of the box, but for a little over $100 you can get a beefier rear anti-roll bar that makes a tremendous difference (did this on my wife's previous Forester).
I would suggest waiting for the Mazda3 before settle on a Prot5. IMHO the 3 is much better looking in the pics I've seen and you also don't want to get hit with the harsh depreciation the prot would most likely take once it is no longer available.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
what about wagons? Mazda Protege5, Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon, Suzuki Aerio wagon, Subaru Impreza (WRX or not) wagon, Ouback, and like mentioned before Forester XT. Mazda may be releasing Mazda6 wagon soon. Then there are front drive or AWD CR-V and Element, as well as RAV4
Owned it for about 3 weeks now.Very econo-box like but a cheap and a solid car well built Japanese car
.I turned down the Civic SI hatch for it and saved 10K in the process.Not half as fast but just as much if not more fun.
Gas mileage is better than I expected and a real saving at the pump helps pay for increased insurance costs.Like Red Rose tea though it is only available in Canada
Yaris/Echo, Scion, Ion, and Mini have one thing in common: Centrally mounted dashboard. I understand that it may be benefitial to some, but not to me. It is weird to have a steering wheel come out of the dash with nothing around it. It is un-natural, to me, to look to the right for the speedo and tach.
I am not sure that Echo is more fun. It may provide bigger adrenaline rish due to low traction provided by those skinny tires :-)
So you aren't looking at nothing. It is a nice big tach, and that the only instrument you really need in a hot hatch (it has the computer and a few idiot lights on it too). Good drivers with manual trannies know their speed from their RPMs and gear selection anyways.
Once you are used to a centre mounted speedo, it is no worse than others. And it is great for doing road rallies where the navigator can read the speed and distances without having to mount an auxilliary unit.
Don't knock central instruments until you've tried them for more than a 10 minute test drive.
I saw your post a few days ago in the our new 2004 Echo Hatchback discussion, and meant to say this there. We look forward to hearing more about your ownership experience. Happy motoring!
I think that the Honda Civic Hatch Si,the ZX3 Focus, and the Golf GTi and some others, are just little bitty station wagons. I love em. Maybe even little bitty Mini vans. Either way I think that these are the best vehicles available today, and these vehicles represent the smartest transportation modules around. When they grow 4 doors they are too ugly to consider. (ZX5) etc. etc. Anyone agree??
I thought that the Echo was a whiz car, but the center gauges threw me for a loop. Did you get used to them? Do you have an automatic? I looked at this car and walked away when I saw the center gauges. I get 36mpg hiway with my RSX auto, and about 24 in town, plus it has enough power, but it cost a lot more than the Echo. How does it drive, handle, stop? I never took the time to drive one.
snakerbill- You may also want to copy/paste your questions about the Echo in our new 2004 Echo Hatch discussion. Weelz may be more likely to see it there. Thanks for your participation.
Comfort is personal. Test drive both, don't just take our word for it. Some seats are great for some people but awful for others. Test them for yourself.
Hi All, looking into buying a new GTI (1.8T) or the Civic Si. Any comments? I've been hearing a lot of stuff about VW's shady reliability. Many have said that it could be good or bad and is inconsistent. They are about the same price, hatches, etc. Would appreciate any input. Thanks!
***This is cut-and-paste from my post after buying the car about a month ago, but it still applies.
So my wife goes out last Saturday and gets herself a new GTI 1.8T. I had my eye on a Mini CooperS, but after driving her car and looking into the even more muscular VR6, I was hooked. I just picked up my Silverstone Grey VR6 yesterday, and I'm in love with this car. A few notes about the two:
- Both the 1.8T and the VR6 are exceptionally quick cars from 1st gear to last (5th for the 1.8T, 6th for the VR6). The VR6 is a bit smoother, though, and purports a higher top speed of 146 mph, vs. the 1.8T's "modest" 135.
- Whether you get the 1.8T or the VR6, you should definitely spring for the upgrade packages. Luxury (Monsoon sound system, Sunroof), Leather (Leather, plus heated seats and windshield cleaning fluid), and Technology (onboard computer, auto-dimming rearview mirror, Automatic Climate Control, and rain-sensing intermittent wipers), are all worthy additions. My wife has just the Luxury, which is a must-have. The Leather and Tech make a world of difference in this car, though. The entire thing feels SO luxurious (and for under 25K).
- About the leather: I recommend the black over the grey. The reason is, the grey gets you matching grey interior panels below the dash and on the door. This mix of dark and light colors tends to make the interior look cheap. It's NOT cheap, though, and the black leather keeps all surfaces the same tone, which really makes the whole car look great.
- The only real benefit of the Monsoon sound system is that you'll have hookups for eight speakers (6.5" mid plus .5" tweeter X 4) when you replace them all. The sooner you do this, the better, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a "Ghetto Rattle" car stereo advocate, but I do like a nice, deep tone, and these speakers don't do it. In case you're wondering, I'm going with the same setup as in my last car: MB Quart Discus Series (www.mbquart.com) all the way around, plus a 10-inch sub, also MB Quart Discus, in the back and two Alpine amps to power them all.
- Despite what you may have read about cupholders in previous models, rest assured that the 04's on sale now include relocated holders (they're in the center console now, next to the parking brake lever). The previous location was, indeed, stupid. The current set-up is just fine.
- That being said, though, you should know that the armest/center storage bin, while scoring points for having an "Up" and "Down" position choice, isn't placed very well, and shifting with it in the "Down" position is a bit awkward. When it's in the "up" position, you're almost always going to smack it with your elbow if you're reaching back at all. Not too bad, since it's the only problem I have with these cars yet, but I'm picky, and it's a pain.
I'll update in a few weeks, but these cars are incredible. Regardless of which of the two GTI's you choose, you'll be really happy with the engine performance and handling. Spring for the upgrade packages, and you'll smile every time you open you car door to take a drive.
*** With regard to your specific choice, I thought I'd let you know that I test-drove the Civic SI before buying my GTI, but I didn't think it was all that impressive. Sure, it was quicker than the "normal" Civics (including the '01 LX that my wife traded in for her GTI 1.8T), but in comparison with the GTI, it just felt awfully bland. If you're looking for a fun-to-drive car with great options to go with the nice standard line-up, I'd definitely choose the GTI. Oh yeah, and it's got SIX airbags, in case you get into too much trouble with all the flying around you'll be doing.
Thanks for the load of info. Sounds like you are a past VW owner. Any problems or issues with reliability? I guess I'm sort of hungup on that point since I know car reliability can be something that comes around to kick a car owner in the rear sort of thing.
A) I'm willing to bet you can get an Si for at least $2500 less than a GTI 1.8T, and a lot, lot less than a VR6. Mutarijim got his for some amount under $25k, and no doubt it is a great car, but that is a lot of money, in a very competitive group. About $7k more than you could get an Si for.
Think about what kind of performance is important for you - for that price you could be driving a Evolution RS.
If you are into modifying your car, a revhard turbo is $3400 installed (if you are in Los Angeles, install not included elsewhere), and will put you into the low/mid 13s.
I like the handling, shifter, and seats, much better on the Si.
C) Either GTI is markedly faster than the Si, so if straight line is your thing, the Si is the wrong car. (unless you want to add a turbo)
D) The GTI does come with nice leather and bigger wheels - but for the price, I'd rather pick my own wheels, and I prefer grippy cloth seats (like the Si) to leather seats (in a sporty-type car) anyway.
I think the GTI (both versions) are great touring-type cars. Powerful, and comfortable. I don't think they are the best handlers, and they are pretty expensive.
How much did you end up paying for it? One can get Acura TSX for a little over $25K these days, with all the luxo goodies. I would jump on it my self, but there is no TSX available without leather. Slip covers do not interest me. I do like the Si's suede seats for their grip.
A VW Golf for $25K is a little pricey for "Peoples car." Now, an Audi A2 (or 3, whatever the Golf in Audi disguise is) for that price is a good deal.
VW's have good ergonomics and the 1.8T is a brilliant engine. However, VW reliabilty and customer service is notorious for a good reason. Why have VW's sales plummeted in 04? Word of mouth on their horrible build quality and arrogant customer service. As the former owner of a GTI and a New Beetle, I can attest to both.
Have you looked at the Focus SVT, Acura RSX, or Mazda 3S hatch? They are all much better handlers and much more fun than anything in VW's stable.
I paid 24K for my VR6 fully loaded, and my wife got her 1.8T for 21.5K. That being said, I'll acknowledge right now that 90% of Americans (including the 5-10yr olds) have better negotiating skills than I do. Also, be sure to check what they're offering for financing. June was 1% APR month for all GTI's, so that really helped out a lot. Don't know what's in store for July, but it's worth looking into.
One other thing, with regard to comparable cars: I traded in a 2002 Protege'5 (the new 3's predecessor) when I got my new VW. The P5's handling was indeed wonderful for such a reasonably priced car, but the 130HP engine was to the VR6 what my golf game is to that of, say, Tiger Woods. Granted, they bumped the 3 hatchback up to 160HP, but that's what the Civic SI is pushing, and I've already said how that compared. Initial build quality in my VR6 is better than good, as far as I'm concerned. Matter of fact, it's in better shape after a month than my P5 was (I'd already gotten an annoying door rattle at that point). Anyway, for what it's worth, I don't regret a thing, and I love driving my car every single time I get into it. Hope this helps...
Comments
I think when you define inflation you can not say that a Snickers bar cost $0.05 in 1973 and it costs $1.50 in 2003. In 1973 minimum hourly wage was somewhere in the $1.50 region. People who were making $30K a year were middle class, and houses in NYC area were in $30-40K region. Fast forward to 2003, minimum hourly wage is $5.75 or something, houses in NYC area are $400K and up. Yeah in the 60-early 70's a gallon of gas was $0.20. First of all, it was before the energy crisis, and secondly, it was not as pure as it it is these days. It may have been a simple distillate of crude oil, these days gasoline has tons of additives to make it burn cleaner, to clean the insides of the engine and not to hurt the catalytic converter. Speaking of which, before the EPA mandated catalytic converter, all of gasoline contained lead, to lubricate engine internals.
But anyway, the only way to thwart people from buying large SUV's is through your local police department. SUV's are classified as trucks, they do not have to go for emissions like trucks, I think the local police department should ticket SUV drivers for: driving on Parkways, for driving in the left lane, for driving on streets that prohibit truck traffic, SUV's should obery the posted truck speed limits, SUV's should be charged truck rates for going over bridges and tunnels, and they have to stop at the weigh stations when they cross state lines. Local police ans state troopers should be enforcing the law!!!!! Petition your local sheriff, attorney general, ect.
I am guessing you do not have a family and therefore do not need an SUV to haul your "stuff". Also, I notice you live in the Bronx. That local is not ideal for large SUV's.
Also because the urban areas all predate cars and don't all have streets or parking that can accomodate the leviathans. When I was stationed in Italy there was a guy who had brought over his prized full-size chevy truck. He barely drove it because most days he couldn't fit it down the street lined with little cars.
A station wagon often gives you the same or more passenger and cargo room with better gas mileage and you can get a Subaru or other AWD solution if you often drive in snow. Better rollover characteristics too so the only time they are less safe than an SUV is when they are hit from the side by other SUVs and most good wagons come with side curtain airbags now which help a lot in that situation.
95% of people who buy SUVs have no real need for them. They live in a free land where they are allowed to buy them and it is their free choice but they don't need them. We don't need not hatches either -- we could all drive unfun vehicles for less money so we are pots calling the kettle black for complaining about their gas mileage and cost but I think SUV vs. station wagon is more wasteful than hot hatch vs. basic commuter hatch.
If Americans have so much freedom, why can't I go out and buy a military tank and drive it on the street?
You could argue that Europeans have MORE freedom because their choice of vehicles is much larger than in the US. VW, for instance only sells in the US a small portion of what they make and sell in Europe. What about the Civic Type R, can't get one here, you can get one there though.
The VW Polo would be an interesting vehicle here in performance form (I think they make a GTI version in Europe, but I don't know off the top of my head). And for all I know (Haven't checked) GM might have a "hot hatch" of some sort over there too.
Most of the times I see SUV's, they are driven by a one female parental unit with the child strappe din the car seat in the middle of the rear seat. Are you telling me that she could not have fit the car seat and baby in an Accord, or Protege5? What about Cute-utes? A CR-V can haul 5 people with their luggage, while getting 25-28 mpg.
The reason they don't have SUV's in Europe is not the gas prices alone. They are taxed annualy based on the engine displacement. So a big haulking V8 will cost $2000 a year in taxes. I believe CT is the only state in the US that has annual property tax on cars. It is based on the value not on displacemnt, but still I paid $600 last year. An owner of a $50K vehicle, be it SUV or luxury car, pays about $1500-2000 a year. Now if they started charging tax beased on engine displacement, then we would have some sort of correlation to Europe.
Fish8, I used to live in The Bronx, and still visit as my family still lives there. You would not belive the number of white Escalades with gold rims and gold trim I see there, on top of the white Suburbans, and white Navigators. They are the worst, they all have aftermarket HID's that are out of focus, and when they are either approaching toward you of from behind, there is no where to hid from the piercing light.
I really hope the rising prices just force SUV's to stay home. Price increase from $1.60/gal to $2.00 changed my weekly gas allownce from $13 to $15. I bet you SUV owners are going to feel it when their credit card bills come in at the end of the month.
The real reason I hate large SUV's is that I can't see past them. When I was taught how to drive I was always told to look ahead, not right infornt, but ahead. To anticipate the un-expected. I was behind Hummer the other day. The only way I could see ahead was by lowering my head to see through under the Hummer.
Believe me, we used to have a 1998 Accord and there was no way we could lug all our crap around. So, my Wife wanted a Tahoe and we bought one. And so far we/she loves it. Before my son was born, I looked at SUV's and thought the exact same thing as you. Why does anyone need that much car.
Dudka: Do you have any children?
I think we are getting a little off topic.....
Isn't that the crux of the SUV "problem?"
People need/want flexibility and capacity of a minivan, but since the image of the minivan is domesticated, dowdy, frumpy, stale, whatever, they opt for the SUV because it means they are independent, in control, have an active lifestyle etc. Nevermind that the facts of their lives aren't going to change. They aren't going to suddenly get into biking, hiking, rollerblading, base jumping, or any other outdoorsy activity simply because they bought a behemoth.
Instead of bling bling escalades, we need some sporty minivans like they have in Europe.
That's why I won't even go into the fact that my wife's 8-passenger SUV gets almost the same mileage my sedan does as well as most minivans. You can read it all over there in past posts.
Besides, if all of us here were about saving gas, we wouldn't be looking at "hot hatches," we'd be getting their more economical counterparts. "Down with the gas-sucking Si and up with the Civic Hybrid!!"
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Minivans are not feul thrifty at all. They may best the SUV's by a gallon or two. I mean Ford windstar is rated 17/22 or something. It is as heavy as some lighter SUV's.
I agree, this is not the forum for "Ihate SUV's" So I will stop.
oh, but I did find the civic gave more headroom than the Accord coupe. Again, i just don't get it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'd like something fun to drive, that's good (doesn't have to be great) on gas, and has an auto tranny. My wife doesn't drive a stick, and teaching her could be the beginning of the end to a beautiful relationship. No need to rock the boat, so the auto tranny is a must-have. This car would be for my commute and for errands.
I'd prefer 5-dr over 3-dr, and more room in case I have to transport all 5 of us, but these are preferences. My price range is $18k - $24k. Drove both the Highlander & Forester and liked them, but they lacked something I can't pin down.
My initial list includes:
Mini Coop (not "S", which doesn't come with A/T)
VW Golf (had a '89 that I hated to sell, but it had a stick)
Mazda Protoge5 (should I wait for the "3"?)
Focus (SVT doesn't come w/ A/T)
Rio 5-dr
Elantra 5-dr
Civic SI
Vibe/Matrix
'04 Prius
Lexus IS300 (has more room, but could be used to meet price range)
Have I overlooked any? I'd appreciate help narrowing the field.
I would suggest waiting for the Mazda3 before settle on a Prot5. IMHO the 3 is much better looking in the pics I've seen and you also don't want to get hit with the harsh depreciation the prot would most likely take once it is no longer available.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mazda Protege5, Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon, Suzuki Aerio wagon, Subaru Impreza (WRX or not) wagon, Ouback, and like mentioned before Forester XT.
Mazda may be releasing Mazda6 wagon soon. Then there are front drive or AWD CR-V and Element, as well as RAV4
Also, some of you may find this new Hatchbacks discussion interesting: Microvans: Fad or wave of the future?.
And let's get back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch. Thanks! ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
.I turned down the Civic SI hatch for it and saved 10K in the process.Not half as fast but just as much if not more fun.
Gas mileage is better than I expected and a real saving at the pump helps pay for increased insurance costs.Like Red Rose tea though it is only available in Canada
I am not sure that Echo is more fun. It may provide bigger adrenaline rish due to low traction provided by those skinny tires :-)
Once you are used to a centre mounted speedo, it is no worse than others. And it is great for doing road rallies where the navigator can read the speed and distances without having to mount an auxilliary unit.
Don't knock central instruments until you've tried them for more than a 10 minute test drive.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Skinny tires nyuck nyuck nyuck......
I bought it for the gas mileage anyway not the prestige
Peace.
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
Thanks
The Mercedes C230K also has a superior back seat. Costs a bit more, though...
-hh
So my wife goes out last Saturday and gets herself a new GTI 1.8T. I had my eye on a Mini CooperS, but after driving her car and looking into the even more muscular VR6, I was hooked. I just picked up my Silverstone Grey VR6 yesterday, and I'm in love with this car. A few notes about the two:
- Both the 1.8T and the VR6 are exceptionally quick cars from 1st gear to last (5th for the 1.8T, 6th for the VR6). The VR6 is a bit smoother, though, and purports a higher top speed of 146 mph, vs. the 1.8T's "modest" 135.
- Whether you get the 1.8T or the VR6, you should definitely spring for the upgrade packages. Luxury (Monsoon sound system, Sunroof), Leather (Leather, plus heated seats and windshield cleaning fluid), and Technology (onboard computer, auto-dimming rearview mirror, Automatic Climate Control, and rain-sensing intermittent wipers), are all worthy additions. My wife has just the Luxury, which is a must-have. The Leather and Tech make a world of difference in this car, though. The entire thing feels SO luxurious (and for under 25K).
- About the leather: I recommend the black over the grey. The reason is, the grey gets you matching grey interior panels below the dash and on the door. This mix of dark and light colors tends to make the interior look cheap. It's NOT cheap, though, and the black leather keeps all surfaces the same tone, which really makes the whole car look great.
- The only real benefit of the Monsoon sound system is that you'll have hookups for eight speakers (6.5" mid plus .5" tweeter X 4) when you replace them all. The sooner you do this, the better, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a "Ghetto Rattle" car stereo advocate, but I do like a nice, deep tone, and these speakers don't do it. In case you're wondering, I'm going with the same setup as in my last car: MB Quart Discus Series (www.mbquart.com) all the way around, plus a 10-inch sub, also MB Quart Discus, in the back and two Alpine amps to power them all.
- Despite what you may have read about cupholders in previous models, rest assured that the 04's on sale now include relocated holders (they're in the center console now, next to the parking brake lever). The previous location was, indeed, stupid. The current set-up is just fine.
- That being said, though, you should know that the armest/center storage bin, while scoring points for having an "Up" and "Down" position choice, isn't placed very well, and shifting with it in the "Down" position is a bit awkward. When it's in the "up" position, you're almost always going to smack it with your elbow if you're reaching back at all. Not too bad, since it's the only problem I have with these cars yet, but I'm picky, and it's a pain.
I'll update in a few weeks, but these cars are incredible. Regardless of which of the two GTI's you choose, you'll be really happy with the engine performance and handling. Spring for the upgrade packages, and you'll smile every time you open you car door to take a drive.
*** With regard to your specific choice, I thought I'd let you know that I test-drove the Civic SI before buying my GTI, but I didn't think it was all that impressive. Sure, it was quicker than the "normal" Civics (including the '01 LX that my wife traded in for her GTI 1.8T), but in comparison with the GTI, it just felt awfully bland. If you're looking for a fun-to-drive car with great options to go with the nice standard line-up, I'd definitely choose the GTI. Oh yeah, and it's got SIX airbags, in case you get into too much trouble with all the flying around you'll be doing.
Think about what kind of performance is important for you - for that price you could be driving a Evolution RS.
If you are into modifying your car, a revhard turbo is $3400 installed (if you are in Los Angeles, install not included elsewhere), and will put you into the low/mid 13s.
C) Either GTI is markedly faster than the Si, so if straight line is your thing, the Si is the wrong car. (unless you want to add a turbo)
D) The GTI does come with nice leather and bigger wheels - but for the price, I'd rather pick my own wheels, and I prefer grippy cloth seats (like the Si) to leather seats (in a sporty-type car) anyway.
I think the GTI (both versions) are great touring-type cars. Powerful, and comfortable. I don't think they are the best handlers, and they are pretty expensive.
A VW Golf for $25K is a little pricey for "Peoples car." Now, an Audi A2 (or 3, whatever the Golf in Audi disguise is) for that price is a good deal.
Evolution RS
Mazdaspeed Miata
RX8
Subaru WRX
Acura RSX-S
Acura TSX
MR-2 Spyder
Cooper S
SRT-4
Celica GT-S
Have you looked at the Focus SVT, Acura RSX, or Mazda 3S hatch? They are all much better handlers and much more fun than anything in VW's stable.
Good luck with your purchase.
One other thing, with regard to comparable cars: I traded in a 2002 Protege'5 (the new 3's predecessor) when I got my new VW. The P5's handling was indeed wonderful for such a reasonably priced car, but the 130HP engine was to the VR6 what my golf game is to that of, say, Tiger Woods. Granted, they bumped the 3 hatchback up to 160HP, but that's what the Civic SI is pushing, and I've already said how that compared. Initial build quality in my VR6 is better than good, as far as I'm concerned. Matter of fact, it's in better shape after a month than my P5 was (I'd already gotten an annoying door rattle at that point). Anyway, for what it's worth, I don't regret a thing, and I love driving my car every single time I get into it. Hope this helps...