That's right. Edmunds pays me a commission on every post I make. Krispy Kreme(fancys), Cokes, lattes, White Castles(sliders) and chocolate SUV'S for everyone!!
March was a good month for Jipster.
2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
My garage is expanded a bit: 2004 Nissan Armada 1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo 5MT (converted to a race car) 1990 Nissan 240sx (beater) soon to be replaced by 2008 Legacy SpecB
Then I just picked up a 33ft Baja Cig Boat with twin 502s
I recently went to test drive minivans, not expecting the new 2008 models to have arrived yet. As I sat to test drive a 2007 TC, I noticed a shiny new model on the floor that I mistook for a Pacifica because of its SUV-looking front. I was delighted to find it was actually the 2008 TC. Finally a minivan a man would not be embarrassed to drive compared to the current crop of egg-shaped mommy-vans. The dealer knocked back an MSRP over $26K for a 2008 TC LX with 24H option package (175 HP motor, Stow N Go, adjustable pedals and cruise control) to a cash price of $25K plus local tax and license, for a vehicle that looks like a $50K extended Armada, especially in color black. Obviously, the TC LX has much less horsepower and interior refinements and passenger seat comfort as a $50K SUV, but I can live with that to save so much money. The new lifetime powertrain warranty on Chrysler and Dodge only sweeten the deal. I think retro SUV-looking minivans will win back a lot of SUV buyers based on sheer value and versatility.
As a long time minivan fan, I'm glad to hear that. I've only seen the photos of the new Town & Country/Caravans, and I'm hopefully not going to be in the market for a few years. But it sounds like there still will be a market in a few years! For a while there I was beginning to wonder. :shades:
The photos that I've seen sort of remind me of the shape of my '89 Voyager - I always liked that body style.
Maybe I misunderstood your post but you did buy the 08, right? Please post some pics on your CarSpace page.
No, I have not bought yet because the dealer won't sell his only 2008 TC test drive car and showroom centerpiece. First time I ever drove a test car right off the showroom floor. Plus I want to also test drive 2008 GC SXT K which dealer also quoted at $25K cash. It has better 197 HP engine and power doors. I'm waiting for his inventory of black 2008 TC/GC stock to come in, he estimates, in October. Also, although it is very unlikely, I want to try to lower the cash price if possible. But I think these new SUV- looking minivans will probably sell at MSRP if there is a rush on them. At least I have a written quote to rely on for awhile. But I did not leave a non-refundable $2K deposit the dealer required to hold a vehicle for me, so it is first come, first served.
Transcript of a secret meeting of the marketing execs of an unnamed auto maker:
Big Cheese: Folks, things are getting desperate here. Sales of our minivans have dropped by 250% over the last year. What is going on?
Little Cheese: Well, boss, you see, there is a big consumer backlash against the moniker "minivan". It used to be that minivan said "practical", "sensible", and "trendy in that 'I-am-so-secure-that-I-dont-need-to-use-my-car-to-prove-my-coolness' way". However, now people associate them with "soccer moms" and "suburban ennui". People just don't want to buy them anymore.
Big Cheese: So what can we do? We are losing sales to all of those big old 4x4 off-roaders! Please tell me that you have a plan to win back customers!
Little Cheese: Well, boss, the first thing that we have to do is to get rid of the name "minivan" and replace it with something more cool.
Big Cheese: Hmmm... interesting... What do you suggest?
Little Cheese: Well, since SUV's are all the rage, let's one-up those SUV's with something even cooler of our own.
Big Cheese: Interesting. Keep going.
Little Cheese: First, we will wipe the name "minivan" from our consciousness and replace it with "CUV"... CROSSOVER UTILITY VEHICLE. It conjures up images of those rugged SUV's going through the mud and all, but it adds a little twist.
Big Cheese: That's it? People won't be fooled by a name change if we are still selling the same looking vehicle.
Little Cheese: You are right, of course. That's why we need to make some cosmetic changes. The sliding door is out. Sliding doors just scream minivan. Instead, we will replace it with a standard swinging door that you find on your SUV.
Big Cheese: Keep going....
Little Cheese: Next, we will raise the roof a little bit to give it a more aggressive, rugged profile. Maybe we will even throw in some bigger tires just to enhance the effect. Of course, we can't raise the roof too much overwise we might scare off the safety and gas mileage buyers. Finally, we will offer a twist on the four wheel drive called "All Wheel Drive". It won't be enough for actual offroading, but people will get that warm and fuzzy feeling that maybe they could run through the mud every once in awhile, even if they never end up doing it in practice.
Big Cheese: You are a fricking genius. We will rebrand the minivan as a CUV, and make some minor changes just to convince people that we did more than change the name, and viola... instant sales!
Grab the last 2 months' of Car & Driver. Compare their test results of the Buick Enclave with the Toyota Sienna.
Handling is similar, but the van is a whole bunch faster, *big* difference too, yet it does 3mpg better at the pump, all for about 2/3rds the cost.
The Enclave has more goodies but those can be added to the van (even AWD), and it would still cost less.
Funny how station wagons were the trend, then they became old news when minivans arrived, then vans became old news when SUVs arrived, now SUVs are falling out of favor with the arrival of crossovers. I wonder what's next?
Over this past weekend, I went to a local car show where various dealers were showing off some of their newer models. Since I will be in the market for a larger family vehicle, I took this opportunity to sit in a new of the vehicles on my short list. Up until now, my wife and I were thinking that we would get some sort of three-row crossover vehicle. However, after attending the carshow, things might have changed.
Here is a summary of my thoughts after viewing various vehicles. Note that I didn't actually drive any of these vehicles (this is an auto show after all):
Buick Enclave: This was the nicest vehicle that we looked at that is still within our price range. Unlike a lot of other vehicles in this class, the third row seat was actually useable, and there was still room to spare in the back with the third row in use. The interior definitely had an upscale, luxury feel to it. For family use, it seems like the captain's chairs are more practical, due to the pass through between the chairs. Otherwise access the third row with a carseat installed is impossible.
Mazda CX-9: This is supposed to be the best performer on the road, but in terms of "utility" it was pretty disappointing. Second and third row were cramped, and the space behind the third row was TINY!
Toyota Highlander: Again, not much utility with this one. Second row as okay, but the third row seems like an afterthought. There was hardly any room back there, and the back of the seat was practically up against the rear windshield.
Hyundai Veracruz: I was actually impressed by this one. My expectations were low based upon the nameplate, but it definitely had a luxury feel inside. Again, the only downside was the disappointing third row (are we sensing a pattern here?).
Honda Accord: Yes, this vehicle isn't a family hauler, but I was impressed at the spaciousness in the new model. On the inside, it felt bigger than many large sedans. The third row seemed like it could hold three adults comfortably, and the trunk was immense!
Honda Pilot, Ford Taurus X: Unfortunately, these models were not represented at the show, so I could not compare.
Finally, I come to the Chrysler Town and Country....
Let me say again that I wasn't intending on getting a minivan. My wife has always said that she won't be caught dead driving one, and while I don't feel as strongly, I never really warmed to the idea either.
However, my son who was with us, spied the Swivel and Go seating with the table in the middle, and he just have to take a look. We went inside, and after looking at SUV's it was pretty apparent that an SUV would be a compromise for what we are looking for (and a more expensive compromise at that!).
The sliding doors and the Swivel seating makes it easy to load and unload passengers. The second and third row is quite roomy compared to the SUV's we looked at. Plus there is a lot more space behind the third row for all of the stuff that a family needs.
In addition, there are so many convienence features that the SUV's don't have. There is a center console the slide from the first row to the second row. Instead of contorting to pass juice and snacks to the back seat, you can load up the console and slide it back. You have the aforementioned Swivel seats which make loading and which allows for conversations between the second and third rows on long family trips. You have a conservation mirror that is concave so you can see everything going on at a glance. You have a freaking 20 gig hard drive entertainment system. You have removable floor panels that opened up to extra storage. You have TWO glove boxes. And don't get me started on all those cupholders!
The bottom line is that the T&C pretty much is designed from the ground up to be a FAMILY UTILITY VEHICLE (FUV), which is what we are looking for. When you compare the T&C side by side with the Highlander, etc, it really hits home about how much of a compromise an SUV, or even a CUV really is. Really, the only thing that the SUV/CUV has that the T&C didn't have was AWD.
Out of curiousity, I priced out both a T&C and an Enclave with options that I would want to get. The T&C was something like $5K less, and even then it had a lot more features than the Enclave.
So here is the bottom line...
Minivan: Uncool, but more utility and more cash in the pocket.
CUV/SUV: Cooler, has AWD, but with less family utility (ironically enough), and more expensive.
I still want to look at the Taurus X and the Pilot, since I didn't get to see them. And of course, I still need to do the whole test drive thing!
Thanks for the info on the Sienna. I didn't realize that it had AWD. To be honest, this whole minivan thing is new to me. If I am actually going to consider minivans, I would definitely look at the Sienna and the Odyssey, since they seem to be the market leaders in the segment.
Not really, Fitzmall has both Toyota and Chrysler and both top out at about $37k.
Toyota is the only van to offer AWD, and that alone is worth $2000. Both really let you load them up - the sky's the limit!
You can get a Sienna like mine, cloth seats, 6CD changer, trip computer, both power sliding doors, for about $25-26k. Leather, DVD entertainment, backup camera, and GPS navigation push the price up to about $33k.
Beyond that you're just showing off. HID headlights, power folding 3rd row seat, laser cruise control, run-flat tires, AWD, etc.
So you have to be pretty extravagant to get the price up over $33k.
I would NEVER pay over $ 30,000 for a minivan when a nicely equipped Odyssey EX, Grand Caravan SXT, or Town & Country Touring can be purchased for well under $ 30,000.
I did NOT include the Sienna because one can NOT get separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in the Sienna LE and the Sienna XLE is NOT available without buying overly expensive additional options. :sick:
We considered the 2006 Sienna XLE until we learned that one can NOT buy the XLE without extra, too costly options. :shades:
You're ruling out the Sienna LE because of one very minor issue, dual zone auto climate control? Why don't you just aim the vents strategically?
If you can live without that (not a major sacrifice) you can buy a van like mine for $25,427. You get a trip computer in place of the dual zone ACC. Plus a tow prep package, cross bars for the roof rack, 3rd row windows that open with power controls (Ody's don't even open at all), a 3rd row that can tailgate, plus puddle lamps.
My LE pkg 3 is better equipped than the Ody EX, without a doubt.
You don't get VCM fuel savings on an Ody until you step up to the EX-L. So Honda forces you to buy a luxury item (leather) to save on gas. If you're poor, too bad, you can't afford it.
That's far more backwards than Toyota not offering two zones on the LE.
We can NOT aim the heater vents at the floor to direct more heat toward me and cool air toward my wife. Lack of dual zone control is NOT an issue in the summer when the A/C is running but summer lasts only 3 to 4 months each year.
WHY do luxury vehicles have separately controlled temperature for driver AND front passenger? We never missed it until we had it on a less expensive Town & Country LX and now do NOT have it on our more expensive Sienna LE.
The T&C also had a BETTER trip computer than our 06 Sienna LE and a complete roof rack. The roll down 2nd windows are a gimmick and source of wind noise that makes our Sienna noisier on the road than was our 02 T&C LX.
The Sienna is a VERY nice minivan with the most cargo space behind the 3rd row, VERY comfortable driver's seat, attractive interior, and good fuel economy with power comparable to the Chrysler 4.0L V6.
We KNEW we would miss dual zone temp in Sienna and Trip Computer in the Ody but realized we made the wrong choice shortly after we got the Sienna. :shades:
So your interested in the T&C? Did you get a chance to look at the Grand Caravan? I was just looking at one of their pamphlets the other day and saw they included 35 new and improved features on this years model. I personally think it looks a little better than the T&C too. I would take a good look at it if your serious about going for a minivan.
The GC and T&C are corporate twins, so I suspect that they are pretty much the same vehicle, other than the styling. I think I remember reading that the suspension is tuned differently on each, though, so maybe that's another difference.
I'll certainly test drive both if and when I get serious about buying a new ride.
I'm sorry, that's all I meant was to give them both a test drive. I'd be interested to see how they both handle compared to one another. Either way, I'm a little bigger fan of the front end on the Caravan. I think it looks pretty good-- for a minivan :-)
Wow....good to see that the topic went back to real comparisons, as opposed to shills bashing SUVs.....
I like the utility of both my minivans, and my two SUVs.
I really think car companies should come out with flexfuel minivans and SUVs.....with hybrid engines. By flexfuels I mean either Ethanol 85 , or Diesel that can take 100 % biodiesel....
add a hybrid engine to that...and you can see that the mpg would go up.
Just so you know, the "base" 3.3L V6 engine on the '08 Grand Caravan/Town and Country can run on E85. Of course, here in the Northeast US, you can't buy E85 anyway, so it is a non-issue.
To be honest, I wouldn't give up my sliding doors! I've been in too many tight spots where some jackleg has parked too close to my van, and I've had to walk through the van via the sliding door. Plus, I like the extra cargo room in the back anyway. I have found that my Sienna has a pretty deep well in the back that holds my scrapbooking tote quite "well", pardon the pun! Besides, with gas prices the way they are now, I don't think I could afford an SUV. More power to those of you who can, though! :P
hansienna had bad timing and bought his van before many incentives were in place.
Today you can get a much better deal, $28k for a Sienna XLE sounds about right, and Honda has $2000 on the hood of the leftover 2007s so those are a bargain.
It's all about the timing.
Chrysler/Dodge now have 2nd row windows that open, too. They're still more quiet than the outgoing models.
I have a 2004 Oddysey - and before that 2 town and countrys-
My Oddysey is now on a month to month lease and I am looking for something new. We don't use the third row that much but do need it sometimes for kids friends.
Any suggestions on a minivan or SUV that gets decent mileage has a cheap factory lease in NJ right now can still fit 2 people in the way back with seat open and store a fair amont of cargo with the seat closed
I looked at the Tribeca but the fit seems pretty tight in the third row and there isnt much cargo room.
Well, you never regreat having the kind of space a minivan offers.
Just yesterday the 4 of us were out with some friends from out of town, and offered them a last-minute ride to the airport. So we had 6 people and 3 bags. No problem with tons of room to spare.
You just never worry about it. There's always room.
To be fair we could probably have squeezed in to the Tribeca. It would not have been as comfortable but it was only a 45 minute or so drive.
I need advice on an upcoming purchase. I currently drive 98 Chevy Venture. We have four children (13,12,10 & 8 yrs old). This year I started driving them to a school over 50 miles away each day. We live in west-central Indiana and as a native Floridian I am finding it quite a challenge to drive in winter weather. I am considering an AWD Toyota Sienna, but I just finished reading the postings regarding the run-flat tires. (It seemed most people hate them). I am also not sure about the no spare tire thing. I really love the ease of a minivan with 4 kids, but I want the safety of an AWD vehicle. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should take a look at?
The stability control and traction control systems available in many of the newer FWD minivans will give you a ton more security than the Venture you're driving now. To give you an example just this past week I helped a friend move and their new place had a very long steep cement driveway that was covered with ice. I went up it with my Odyssey and I felt the van slipping, but the traction control kicked in and the wheels started spinning alternately. I crawled right up the hill no problem. I'm absolutely sure some of my past FWD vehicles without traction control would have spun out.
AWD is nice, but you give up mileage. Some nice ones are the Mazda Cx-9, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, GMC Arcadia, Saturn Outlook.
I still wouldn't give up on the minivan. You'll have more space and better mileage and as long as you stay on roads will take you anywhere an AWD will.
You can replace the tires with conventional tires when the time comes, and a full-size spare does fit in the well in the back, though you will no longer be able to fold the 2/3rds section of the 3rd row.
That should not matter - with 4 kids that seat will be occupied all the time anyway.
Also, you can stand up that tire and cover it with gray carpeting, if you want to get creative. That would still block one side of the 3rd row from disappearing, but the Sienna's 52" wide cargo area is at least 4" wider than any other minivan sold today, so you'd still have plenty of cargo room, even with the tire in that spot.
The spare goes under the car, and the AWD driveline occupies that space. So no room for a spare under the van. To be fair, though, Toyota is the only minivan maker to even offer AWD as an option.
FWD with TRAC and VSC should be adequate, mine only really struggles to climb hills. With the long wheelbase, weight shifts back, and the front tires spin.
If you live around lots of hills, or gravel/dirt roads, or think you need the extra inch of clearance, go with an AWD model. If not, FWD should be OK.
Is there any problem with the Venture? If not, just get yourself 4 steel rims and 4 snow tires. I lived in Canada for many years and used Blizzak snow tires. These tires work really well in snow and ice. Unless you drive off road, you really don't need 4 wheel drive. Just my opinion. Good luck.
Thank you for all the good advice. My Venture has over 160k miles on it and has had a variety of problems in the past year. I no longer feel comfortable taking it on long trips, but I did put good tires on it in September. Our small town is often not plowed early in the morning when I have to head out with the kids for school. I think I will have to settle for a FWD van (either Odyssey or Sienna) or move up to an SUV. I did notice some come with the captains chairs in the second row, so that may work in lieu of a minivan. I am going to test drive the Toyota Sequoia and GMC Arcadia in the next few days. I will let you know what I decide.
With 4 kids at 8 y.o. +, plus unplowed roads, I'd say go for either the Sienna AWD, or the GM trio (Acadia/Outlook/Enclave soon to add the Chevy Traverse, which looks pretty good to my eye). With both of those, you have a free lane in the middle to get back to the 3rd row, which at least one of your kids will be using day after day after day ...
People complain about the run-flats, but to be honest with you, in your situation (50 mile rural (right?) school commute, with winter, I'd say I might actually want run-flats! You'll be going through the tires (though check Consumer Reports' report on their Sienna run-flat usage: they're getting good wear by making sure they keep air pressures right), but I would think it's a worthwhile investment.
If the Sequoia's in your price range, take a look at the Mercedes GL class also.
There are a few things you should consider. Your kids are aging. They probably won't want another minivan because minivans are not "cool" for high school kids. Soon they are going to start to drive also, and they will probably be driving whatever you buy. Consider safety since 16-18 yo have lots of accidents. Consider cost because if they do total the car - you are not as disgusted. Your insurance is about to double when they get their license - consider the price to insure the new with teenaged drivers in the house. Even if you say they won't drive a certain car - the insurance companies will still charge to insure your teenagers as drivers of the new vehicle. Kids like to drive SUV's over minivans and they are a little easier to control and smaller. Watch SUV roll which effects minivans also.
I would advise keeping your Venture. That van had a good engine and transmission. Unless repairs get really expensive - it would make a great "beater" - especially in the snow. Your kids can learn to drive on it also. You won't get much trade in for it with that high of mileage, and you won't be able to buy another car for the amount of your trade in, so just keep it for a backup vehicle. You will soon have a third driver in the house. The Venture can also double down as a cargo van now that it is a beater. I did not think I trusted my high mileage van on long trips but was forced to. It has been great and reliable. I think people distrust more than they should. If you got 160K out of it something must have been working well in the first place. Some new cars have more problems than the old one they replaced.
Lots of people right now are liking their Ford Freestyle and Acadias. If you want a good deal you out to consider one of those Pacificas AWD with the lifetime powertrain warrenty. They are being discontinued so they will probably get great rebats in the summer, but the AWD's will go first. Consumer Reports loves the Highlander if it is big enough for you.(though I think CR is retarded).
I'm waiting for hybrid versions to come out before purchasing an AWD SUV.
At least the 2007 and later Siennas have actual tire-pressure sensors in each wheel. 2006 and earlier models just used the ABS to sense a rotational difference in the tires to tell that one was more flat. So if they lost air uniformly, the old system was useless.
The 2007-2008 Siennas have individual sensors in each wheel, even the spare. So a light flashes on your dash to tell you if any tire is low.
That will keep the run-flats aired up all the time.
Comments
-mike
Hey, since you're buying, I'd like a latte, please!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
-mike
Yes, but the Jipster can afford it!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
That's right. Edmunds pays me a commission on every post I make. Krispy Kreme(fancys), Cokes, lattes, White Castles(sliders) and chocolate SUV'S for everyone!!
March was a good month for Jipster.
-mike
And....without an SUV, I guess that means you don't drive in the city any more....those potholes, you know :-P
And you're a host now...gone over to the dark side. Have they issued you the gold delete key?
My garage is expanded a bit:
2004 Nissan Armada
1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo 5MT (converted to a race car)
1990 Nissan 240sx (beater) soon to be replaced by 2008 Legacy SpecB
Then I just picked up a 33ft Baja Cig Boat with twin 502s
-mike
I guess that Baja prob uses a little more gas than my sailboat. What does it get, 30 inches/gal? :=)
The Baja you feel back there as it's 9000+lbs on the trailer
The baja gets 3-4mpg at 50mph actually which isn't bad considering. If I push it to 75mph I get .75mpg-1mpg
-mike
I guess you need an SUV, not a MV.
At least we're back on topic now :=)
-mike
How I Drive a Minivan and Live With Myself
The photos that I've seen sort of remind me of the shape of my '89 Voyager - I always liked that body style.
Maybe I misunderstood your post but you did buy the 08, right? Please post some pics on your CarSpace page.
Of course prices vary by region, and perhaps supply is not as plentiful there yet.
Non-refundable deposits are nuts, and a $2k one is really crazy.
http://www.chrysler.com/en/2008/town_country/index.html
2008 Dodge Grand Caravan brochure pages are not numbered but list the 4.0L V6 at same 251 hp and 259 lb ft without rpm data.
Big Cheese: Folks, things are getting desperate here. Sales of our minivans have dropped by 250% over the last year. What is going on?
Little Cheese: Well, boss, you see, there is a big consumer backlash against the moniker "minivan". It used to be that minivan said "practical", "sensible", and "trendy in that 'I-am-so-secure-that-I-dont-need-to-use-my-car-to-prove-my-coolness' way". However, now people associate them with "soccer moms" and "suburban ennui". People just don't want to buy them anymore.
Big Cheese: So what can we do? We are losing sales to all of those big old 4x4 off-roaders! Please tell me that you have a plan to win back customers!
Little Cheese: Well, boss, the first thing that we have to do is to get rid of the name "minivan" and replace it with something more cool.
Big Cheese: Hmmm... interesting... What do you suggest?
Little Cheese: Well, since SUV's are all the rage, let's one-up those SUV's with something even cooler of our own.
Big Cheese: Interesting. Keep going.
Little Cheese: First, we will wipe the name "minivan" from our consciousness and replace it with "CUV"... CROSSOVER UTILITY VEHICLE. It conjures up images of those rugged SUV's going through the mud and all, but it adds a little twist.
Big Cheese: That's it? People won't be fooled by a name change if we are still selling the same looking vehicle.
Little Cheese: You are right, of course. That's why we need to make some cosmetic changes. The sliding door is out. Sliding doors just scream minivan. Instead, we will replace it with a standard swinging door that you find on your SUV.
Big Cheese: Keep going....
Little Cheese: Next, we will raise the roof a little bit to give it a more aggressive, rugged profile. Maybe we will even throw in some bigger tires just to enhance the effect. Of course, we can't raise the roof too much overwise we might scare off the safety and gas mileage buyers. Finally, we will offer a twist on the four wheel drive called "All Wheel Drive". It won't be enough for actual offroading, but people will get that warm and fuzzy feeling that maybe they could run through the mud every once in awhile, even if they never end up doing it in practice.
Big Cheese: You are a fricking genius. We will rebrand the minivan as a CUV, and make some minor changes just to convince people that we did more than change the name, and viola... instant sales!
Grab the last 2 months' of Car & Driver. Compare their test results of the Buick Enclave with the Toyota Sienna.
Handling is similar, but the van is a whole bunch faster, *big* difference too, yet it does 3mpg better at the pump, all for about 2/3rds the cost.
The Enclave has more goodies but those can be added to the van (even AWD), and it would still cost less.
Funny how station wagons were the trend, then they became old news when minivans arrived, then vans became old news when SUVs arrived, now SUVs are falling out of favor with the arrival of crossovers. I wonder what's next?
Here is a summary of my thoughts after viewing various vehicles. Note that I didn't actually drive any of these vehicles (this is an auto show after all):
Buick Enclave: This was the nicest vehicle that we looked at that is still within our price range. Unlike a lot of other vehicles in this class, the third row seat was actually useable, and there was still room to spare in the back with the third row in use. The interior definitely had an upscale, luxury feel to it. For family use, it seems like the captain's chairs are more practical, due to the pass through between the chairs. Otherwise access the third row with a carseat installed is impossible.
Mazda CX-9: This is supposed to be the best performer on the road, but in terms of "utility" it was pretty disappointing. Second and third row were cramped, and the space behind the third row was TINY!
Toyota Highlander: Again, not much utility with this one. Second row as okay, but the third row seems like an afterthought. There was hardly any room back there, and the back of the seat was practically up against the rear windshield.
Hyundai Veracruz: I was actually impressed by this one. My expectations were low based upon the nameplate, but it definitely had a luxury feel inside. Again, the only downside was the disappointing third row (are we sensing a pattern here?).
Honda Accord: Yes, this vehicle isn't a family hauler, but I was impressed at the spaciousness in the new model. On the inside, it felt bigger than many large sedans. The third row seemed like it could hold three adults comfortably, and the trunk was immense!
Honda Pilot, Ford Taurus X: Unfortunately, these models were not represented at the show, so I could not compare.
Finally, I come to the Chrysler Town and Country....
Let me say again that I wasn't intending on getting a minivan. My wife has always said that she won't be caught dead driving one, and while I don't feel as strongly, I never really warmed to the idea either.
However, my son who was with us, spied the Swivel and Go seating with the table in the middle, and he just have to take a look. We went inside, and after looking at SUV's it was pretty apparent that an SUV would be a compromise for what we are looking for (and a more expensive compromise at that!).
The sliding doors and the Swivel seating makes it easy to load and unload passengers. The second and third row is quite roomy compared to the SUV's we looked at. Plus there is a lot more space behind the third row for all of the stuff that a family needs.
In addition, there are so many convienence features that the SUV's don't have. There is a center console the slide from the first row to the second row. Instead of contorting to pass juice and snacks to the back seat, you can load up the console and slide it back. You have the aforementioned Swivel seats which make loading and which allows for conversations between the second and third rows on long family trips. You have a conservation mirror that is concave so you can see everything going on at a glance. You have a freaking 20 gig hard drive entertainment system. You have removable floor panels that opened up to extra storage. You have TWO glove boxes. And don't get me started on all those cupholders!
The bottom line is that the T&C pretty much is designed from the ground up to be a FAMILY UTILITY VEHICLE (FUV), which is what we are looking for. When you compare the T&C side by side with the Highlander, etc, it really hits home about how much of a compromise an SUV, or even a CUV really is. Really, the only thing that the SUV/CUV has that the T&C didn't have was AWD.
Out of curiousity, I priced out both a T&C and an Enclave with options that I would want to get. The T&C was something like $5K less, and even then it had a lot more features than the Enclave.
So here is the bottom line...
Minivan: Uncool, but more utility and more cash in the pocket.
CUV/SUV: Cooler, has AWD, but with less family utility (ironically enough), and more expensive.
I still want to look at the Taurus X and the Pilot, since I didn't get to see them. And of course, I still need to do the whole test drive thing!
I feel like I could have written the same thing. I even liked the Veracruz, just as you noted.
I totally agree - with crossovers you give up affordability and space for what basically amounts to "image".
The sportier crossovers tend to be the smaller ones - Tribeca, Infiniti FX, Murano, and the CX9, among the ones I test drove.
Toyota is the only van to offer AWD, and that alone is worth $2000. Both really let you load them up - the sky's the limit!
You can get a Sienna like mine, cloth seats, 6CD changer, trip computer, both power sliding doors, for about $25-26k. Leather, DVD entertainment, backup camera, and GPS navigation push the price up to about $33k.
Beyond that you're just showing off.
So you have to be pretty extravagant to get the price up over $33k.
I did NOT include the Sienna because one can NOT get separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in the Sienna LE and the Sienna XLE is NOT available without buying overly expensive additional options. :sick:
We considered the 2006 Sienna XLE until we learned that one can NOT buy the XLE without extra, too costly options. :shades:
If you can live without that (not a major sacrifice) you can buy a van like mine for $25,427. You get a trip computer in place of the dual zone ACC. Plus a tow prep package, cross bars for the roof rack, 3rd row windows that open with power controls (Ody's don't even open at all), a 3rd row that can tailgate, plus puddle lamps.
My LE pkg 3 is better equipped than the Ody EX, without a doubt.
You don't get VCM fuel savings on an Ody until you step up to the EX-L. So Honda forces you to buy a luxury item (leather) to save on gas. If you're poor, too bad, you can't afford it.
That's far more backwards than Toyota not offering two zones on the LE.
WHY do luxury vehicles have separately controlled temperature for driver AND front passenger? We never missed it until we had it on a less expensive Town & Country LX and now do NOT have it on our more expensive Sienna LE.
The T&C also had a BETTER trip computer than our 06 Sienna LE and a complete roof rack. The roll down 2nd windows are a gimmick and source of wind noise that makes our Sienna noisier on the road than was our 02 T&C LX.
The Sienna is a VERY nice minivan with the most cargo space behind the 3rd row, VERY comfortable driver's seat, attractive interior, and good fuel economy with power comparable to the Chrysler 4.0L V6.
We KNEW we would miss dual zone temp in Sienna and Trip Computer in the Ody but realized we made the wrong choice shortly after we got the Sienna. :shades:
I'll certainly test drive both if and when I get serious about buying a new ride.
As for the Honda, you can get a 2007 Odyssey EX-L with tons of features, leather, moonroof and heated seats for $26k right now.
So...both are well under $30k, even the Sienna XLE. Not sure what the problem is...
I like the utility of both my minivans, and my two SUVs.
I really think car companies should come out with flexfuel minivans and SUVs.....with hybrid engines. By flexfuels I mean either Ethanol 85 , or Diesel that can take 100 % biodiesel....
add a hybrid engine to that...and you can see that the mpg would go up.
while maintaining your safety margin...
Today you can get a much better deal, $28k for a Sienna XLE sounds about right, and Honda has $2000 on the hood of the leftover 2007s so those are a bargain.
It's all about the timing.
Chrysler/Dodge now have 2nd row windows that open, too. They're still more quiet than the outgoing models.
My Oddysey is now on a month to month lease and I am looking for something new. We don't use the third row that much but do need it sometimes for kids friends.
Any suggestions on a minivan or SUV that
gets decent mileage
has a cheap factory lease in NJ right now
can still fit 2 people in the way back with seat open and store a fair amont of cargo with the seat closed
I looked at the Tribeca but the fit seems pretty tight in the third row and there isnt much cargo room.
I just want to lease this vehicle
thanks
Subaru has good residuals so lease deals are pretty good. Ask Car_Man in the Tribeca lease thread for details.
Right now Honda has HUGE incentives on the Odyssey, so if you are bargain shopping the best van deal out there, IMO, is with Honda.
I have a Sienna, but the 2007s are gone, and 2008 prices do not match Honda's clearance pricing on 2007s.
Seems to me that a minivan still wins that race.
I felt a bit like the overloaded Home Depot guy the other day creeping along the back roads with this pile of wood (with my wife riding shotgun):
Just yesterday the 4 of us were out with some friends from out of town, and offered them a last-minute ride to the airport. So we had 6 people and 3 bags. No problem with tons of room to spare.
You just never worry about it. There's always room.
To be fair we could probably have squeezed in to the Tribeca. It would not have been as comfortable but it was only a 45 minute or so drive.
AWD is nice, but you give up mileage. Some nice ones are the Mazda Cx-9, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, GMC Arcadia, Saturn Outlook.
I still wouldn't give up on the minivan. You'll have more space and better mileage and as long as you stay on roads will take you anywhere an AWD will.
That should not matter - with 4 kids that seat will be occupied all the time anyway.
Also, you can stand up that tire and cover it with gray carpeting, if you want to get creative. That would still block one side of the 3rd row from disappearing, but the Sienna's 52" wide cargo area is at least 4" wider than any other minivan sold today, so you'd still have plenty of cargo room, even with the tire in that spot.
The spare goes under the car, and the AWD driveline occupies that space. So no room for a spare under the van. To be fair, though, Toyota is the only minivan maker to even offer AWD as an option.
FWD with TRAC and VSC should be adequate, mine only really struggles to climb hills. With the long wheelbase, weight shifts back, and the front tires spin.
If you live around lots of hills, or gravel/dirt roads, or think you need the extra inch of clearance, go with an AWD model. If not, FWD should be OK.
People complain about the run-flats, but to be honest with you, in your situation (50 mile rural (right?) school commute, with winter, I'd say I might actually want run-flats! You'll be going through the tires (though check Consumer Reports' report on their Sienna run-flat usage: they're getting good wear by making sure they keep air pressures right), but I would think it's a worthwhile investment.
If the Sequoia's in your price range, take a look at the Mercedes GL class also.
I would advise keeping your Venture. That van had a good engine and transmission. Unless repairs get really expensive - it would make a great "beater" - especially in the snow. Your kids can learn to drive on it also. You won't get much trade in for it with that high of mileage, and you won't be able to buy another car for the amount of your trade in, so just keep it for a backup vehicle. You will soon have a third driver in the house. The Venture can also double down as a cargo van now that it is a beater. I did not think I trusted my high mileage van on long trips but was forced to. It has been great and reliable. I think people distrust more than they should. If you got 160K out of it something must have been working well in the first place. Some new cars have more problems than the old one they replaced.
Lots of people right now are liking their Ford Freestyle and Acadias. If you want a good deal you out to consider one of those Pacificas AWD with the lifetime powertrain warrenty. They are being discontinued so they will probably get great rebats in the summer, but the AWD's will go first. Consumer Reports loves the Highlander if it is big enough for you.(though I think CR is retarded).
I'm waiting for hybrid versions to come out before purchasing an AWD SUV.
The 2007-2008 Siennas have individual sensors in each wheel, even the spare. So a light flashes on your dash to tell you if any tire is low.
That will keep the run-flats aired up all the time.