Gas-Electric Hybrid Vehicles: Features you'd like to see.

rfruth · December 2001

Here is more info about the Civic hybrid from Yahoo honda hybrid group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-hybrid/ - snip -

The 4th cylinder belongs there. The engine size is 1300 cc. Apparently it may be an Insight engine with another cylinder. It has variable cam timing and also a "lean burn" mode. The dash looks like an Insight in instrumentation. Possibly different colors in the bar graphs. (green and blue?)Trunk size appears to be deep in height and the dimensions appear to be the same size as the trunk lid. The battery and electronics are located behind the rear seat. Max power

is at 5700 rpm. --- In honda-hybrid@y..., "insight_472" <insight_472@y...> wrote:

Not much to report as the car was locked-up tight, there was no informational display, and there were no brochures. Hood was up, but we know what the Honda hybrid system looks like, and we have seen the photos at links posted by various members of this list. Under hood space is a bit cramped compared to the Insight. Anybody know what that fourth cylinder is for? Tires are same as DX and LX models. Dunlop SP20 FE 185/70R14 87S M+S. Max pressure 0kPa/51psi. Treadwear 320, traction A, temperature B. Gotta love that 51psi. I wonder what tire pressure Honda recommends for the various models.The outside mirror housings are moveable. Standard Civic outside mirrror housings are fixed. The antenna is roof mounted, centered just behind the windshield. The antenna mount rotates up and down (flat on roof). On the other Civics the antenna is built into the rear window. The equipment level has LX and EX features, but no moonroof. I didn't check to see if the hybrid has the rear stabilizer bar that is standard on LX and EX models. The VIN plate was not on the car. Under hood stampings and stickers showed a non-standard VIN, probably indicating a non-production car. The displayed car had the automatic transmission. Civics have large trunks. The trunk on the hybrid was locked so I couldn't see how much space is lost to the IMA battery and electronics. There was a Civic GX on display. On this model the trunk is only as deep, front to back, as the trunk lid. Ouch.

The salesman who sold me my Insight was working the show. He told me that Honda has indicated a February/March timeframe for Civic Hybrid delivery. He didn't know if the manual transmission will be available then. He told me they think the hybrid was locked because the guy who dropped-off the car took the keys with him when he left for California that morning.For the last two years the Insight on display was locked. This year Honda had it open. Do they or do they not want to sell hybrid vehicles ? Dan Smith

robertsmx · December 2001

Hybrid Civic's 1.3 liter I-4 engine is completely new design, including the basics. It was introduced with Honda Fit, http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/fit, a subcompact hatchback. The light and compact engine is a 2valve/cylinder SOHC design with iDSI (intelligent Dual Sequential Ignition) for clean emissions and low end power delivery with exceptional fuel efficiency (54 mpg). It is rated at 86 HP @ 5700 rpm, 88 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm. http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/fit/200106 has the link to factbook on the vehicle (including some pretty description of the iDSI engine) if you can get the text translated into English (I use Altavista's Babelfish translation facility).

This engine was slightly modified for use in Civic Hybrid, http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/civic-hybrid, including use of 'variable cylinder' technology. During deceleration, one of the four cylinders actually shuts off.

robertsmx · December 2001

This picture shows the interior of the Civic Hybrid,
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/05_p02.jpg

The gauge cluster,
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/05_p03.jpg

The trunk-I,
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/05_p05.jpg

The trunk-II,
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/03_p03.jpg

The packaging-I,
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/03_p02.gif

The packaging-II
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/civichybrid/200112/img/03_p05.jpg

This page shows the specifications (29.5 km/liter!),
http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/civic-hybrid/grade-data

marcb · January 2002

this interesting article..

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/mann0102.asp?p=0

on a another note since the honda civic HEV is coming, wouldn't it be interesting if we started a topic in the sedan section? personally i believe the HEV civic is a potential a hit.

cyranno99 · January 2002

robert - nice pictures. I hope that the hybrid Civic would be successful here.

marcb - you should have warned us that it's a long article... still it's good. Yeah, I read that Toyota broke even with the Prius when people thought that it might be a dent in Toyota's bank account.

catam · January 2002

Let me get this straight a Regular civic can be bought for around $13000. The new Hybrid Civic will come in "under $20,000". So for sake of arguement lets be optimistic and assume 19,000. Thats $6,000 mor for esentially the same vehicle, minus some trunk space, that gets optimistically 10-15 MPG better combined economy. Lets do the math: A standard Civic at a combined low estimate of 35MPG, after 100,000 mi you would have used about 2857 gallons of fuel at an estimated cost at $1.50/gal of $4285.50. The hybrid Civic should get 50MPG, after 100,000 mi you would have used 2,000 gallons of fuel at an estimated cost of $3,000. Thus you will need to drive about 466,744 miles before you recoup the initial cost difference.
Don't get me wrong I think hybrids have a definite future in auto's, they just have a long way to go before they actually save any money.

daysailer · January 2002

An interesting article was published in the IEEE Spectrum last year and can be seen at the link below.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/pubs/spectrum/0301/hev.html

cyranno99 · January 2002

well... you can say the say the same thing about SUV... do you really need something that costly... as stated in another thread. BTW, this is the wrong thread to argue about whether hybrids are worth it.

Ok.. the economics of ANY new technology is questionable... enough said... go to the other thread and pose the same question, if you want.

catam · January 2002

Which other thread are you talking about?
Also, this is not the same as the SUV vs. car discussion. You are talking about 2 essentially identical vehicles, just with different forms of power. The hybrids are just offering a fuel mileage benefit. The main rationale for persuing this benefit would be to save money. As I pointed out, it does not come close to saving money yet.

amorales · January 2002

300 mi on a charge would be nice. Would allow for long commutes during the week. Then on the weekends we may enjoy our Hot Rods, muscle cars, bumblee rice burners (FAST AND FEROCIOUS), monster trucks, V8 engined minis, vans and SUVS, Pontiac AZTEK GTO included.

daysailer · January 2002

The Insight has a 650-700+ mi range and the Prius 530-600+. Either is much more than my bladder can withstand.

amorales · January 2002

Richard,

Thank you for great data. I must agree with your second statement. 2 hours is about my limit.

Regards,

Andy

A Babyboomer who loves vehicles, all vehicles. Am loyal to none, if i find a vehicle that suits me, i will buy it regardless of make, origin of design or manufacture

cyranno99 · January 2002

do you understand the point of this thread? It is to find out which features that you want to see, not that you don't want to see those vehicles. The other thread, if you had bother to look, is whether or not hybrids are ready.

catam · January 2002

The feature I most want to see an a hybrid vehicle is a sticker price that can justify them.

cyranno99 · January 2002

are you the kind of person who opposes technological progress every step of the way? I am curious since you don't seem to realize that new technologies usually have a cost barrier to overcome.

catam · January 2002

I think Hybrid vehicles are going to become quite commonplace in the coming years, and I think they do offer some nice benefits. They will probably be a reasonable stop gap until fuel cells become an automotive reality. However, right now I just don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to buy a one. I realize new technology always as an initial price issue. Do you remeber $700 VCR's and $500 microwaves. I do. But I sure didn't buy one until the technology was proven and the price had come down.
My point is simple, if you have to be one of those who drives a hybrid now, just realize you are paying a severe cost premium for a vehicle with lower performance, and less usable space.
If your willing to make that sacrifice good for you, personally I have better things to do with my hard earned money.

daysailer · January 2002

I am an engineer, after all, but any product, no matter how technologically interesting, must best serve my needs within my economic framework for me to choose it. I can not afford to use the purchase of a car to make a statement, environmental or otherwise. Perhaps in another life.

cyranno99 · January 2002

yes, I know, but it takes people who loves high-tech gizmos that the rest of us will have a chance for lower prices. Someone has to buy a high-end computer now for it to become a low-end computer in the future, I think that you know what I mean.

robertsmx · January 2002

Some people like horsepower, some like ride, some like what these cars could offer, now! Its for them.

marcb · February 2002

well, take a look at this proposed tax feature!

rfruth · February 2002

According to this article http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/49260/article.html (thanks Edmunds) EBD (electronic brake distribution) comes on the Civic hybrid, is this currently used on other vehicles ?

robertsmx · February 2002

Has it.

rfruth · March 2002

NiMH seems to be the default battery type (not sure what the hybrid Escape will use but it "is designed to last the life of the vehicle") have heard that GM Ovonic is doing prototype testing on a new hybrid-specific nickel-metal hydride battery, do you (anyone) think NiMH is the best available technology at this time or are manufactures doing the el cheapo thing ? Since the battery - packs (not the usual 12v) have a long warranty I'd assume the manufactures have faith in them.

rfruth · March 2002

Here is some info from honda.com regarding Civic hybrid http://www.hondacars.com/civichybrid/index.html

Kirstie_H · March 2002

We're looking for any woman who has recently bought or driven a hybrid car.

If you fit this description and care to share your input on the subject, please contact Kristen Gerencher at kgerencher@marketwatch.com or Jeannine Fallon at jfallon@edmunds.com by noon EST Tuesday, March 19.

robertsmx · March 2002

Acura DNX will be showcased at NYAS.

Kirstie_H · March 2002

Don't forget tonight's Town Hall Chat, 5-7 pm PT/8-10 pm ET. Tonight's topic -- Why my next car will/won't be a hybrid.

Hope you can make it!

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Edmunds.com

rfruth · April 2002

Today my plain ole 00 gas Civic hatch took a metal filing cabinet no problem, even a large sedan would have had trouble with this so a hybrid HB would really fit the bill, yea the Insight is a hatch but the hatchback area isn't that large hope its beefed up !

robertsmx · April 2002

Now I am trying to imagine Civic Hybrid with five doors, the model that Honda sells in Europe/Japan.
The 5-door Civic

marcb · April 2002

i didn't know honda had 5 door civics overseas.

coming from a van, i've been heckling toyota to make a hybrid matrix in this boards as a 5 door is the minimum i'm willing to go down to cut on gas.

bring it over here honda - quick! before any other automaker beats you. or better yet, since the civic shares the honda's global small car platform with the these other models, just bring in a hybrid mobilio or a hybrid model X and i'm in heaven!

marcb · April 2002

a hybrid honda fit/jazz would also be just as nice!

daysailer · April 2002

Looks like a current incarnation of the Honda "City" of the early '80s, although much heavier at nearly 2200lb. But at 500lb less than a Civic hybrid it's a great improvement. With fuel economy comparable to a hybrid and utility greater than a current Civic, why suffer the cost and complexity of a hybrid?

Bring the Fit to north America, Honda!

marcb · April 2002

even a non hybrid honda fit is good enough for me to consider, hybrid die hard fan that i am. and thnx daysailer, i actually thought i was nuts to think it looked great (had this site bookedmarked for quiet a while now).

assuming there isn't one already, maybe we should start a topic here in edmunds somewhere and see if there others that could be interested also?

marcb · April 2002

Just created a topic on the Honda Fit/Jazz in Edmunds.

Anyone interested to comment on the Honda Fit/Jazz click here.

daysailer · April 2002

I think that we're in the minority (particularly here at Town Hall) and I doubt that there's sufficient market in the US, unless the current trend in gas price continues long term. In the '80s I'd hoped to see the City in the US, but it didn't happen. A pitty that the US appetite for clumsy leviathans seems unsatiable while nimble, useful, economical vehicles are difficult to sell!

robertsmx · April 2002

Will fit the slot under Civic nicely. There may not be a huge market in terms of profits, but something to be considered especially when civic has been moving upwards.
A great alternative to Echo/Spectra/Accent, even Cavalier.

As an interesting side note, the gasoline engine in Civic Hybrid (1.3 liter SOHC iDSI 8-valve I-4) first appeared in Fit, and Japanese mode of rating fuel efficiency gives it 23 km/liter (54 mpg).

marcb · April 2002

It should be a great alternative to the Echo/Spectra/Accent/Cavalier. Actually since it is packaged as a tall station wagon and has more space than the Focus SW, it should be grabbing market from the Matrix/Vibe, Aero, Focus SW, and VW SW's too. So daysailer if this is the market we are looking at, we might not be in the minority that much.

robertsmx, it's funny that in Euro/Asia the 1.3 engine is good enough to power this craft alone. But boosted with electric power in the Hybrid Civic, Americans are complaining. Oh now wait i know daysailer, it's that dang innefficent battery we have not improved in decades. Maybe our techies should start looking at nature to solve this mystery - start dissecting amazon electric eels, fireflies or something..

daysailer · April 2002

The hybrid Civic has a 500lb penalty relative to the Fix so it REQUIRES "boost". The question is whether the boost is sufficient.

Re batteries, I've not said that they are "inefficient", nor have I said that they've not been improved. I HAVE said that their energy density is orders of magnitude less than gasoline and therefore not an adequate replacement - it's not a mystery, I'ts a physical reality.

robertsmx · April 2002

In Europe/Asia, even 2.0 liter engine can be a big deal. While in Europe, I read about Passat being sold with 1.6 liter gasoline engine delivering 100 HP. Even now, VW sells Golf with 1.3 liter diesel getting 75 HP, and these cars are heavy.
IMO, however, Honda should fit the Civic Hybrid powertrain in Jazz and bring it over, with base (non-hybrid) trims as well. Even with the weight penalty (about 60-70 lb. in Civic), Jazz will barely top out at 2300 lb. fully loaded, and may be cheaper for more people who would like to have a hybrid, besides beating the Civic in performance as well as fuel efficiency. Jazz offers a good growth potential for Honda in the lower end of the market.

marcb · April 2002

daysailer, i was just being funny :-) i pop in here once in a while and actually miss a lot of other peoples post.

robertsmx, i believe the same way too. and i would consider a non hybrid Jazz if nothing else came, but would still prefer a hybrid version. Coming from a van, I would probably be saving so much to downgrade to a Jazz the hybrid premium wouldn't even matter. which probably explains why i am so keen on a hybrid system in a smaller cheaper package - i'm spending the money already so don't really care. and i would never consider downsizing also unless the difference in gas consumption is significant (as in at least cutting down to a 3rd of my current). to me, it's just not worth it. so something like a jazz or a hybrid is what i'm looking for. the environmental benefits comes only 2nd.

rfruth · April 2002

Hmm, Honda switching to Sanyo from Panasonic EV Energy Co.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20020413a8.htm

rfruth · April 2002

03 Toyota Matrix hybrid http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml I'm in hog heven !

marcb · April 2002

thanks rfruth - thats the best news i've heard in a while! Now I have some real choices to make when my lease ends in 2003. Just hope they're in by the end of this year so any dealer price gouging will not be too bad next year. Better yet, Toyota keep a tight reign on their dealers on the hybrid prices.

I also hope Toyota provides a 2nd more modest model for the rest of us. Air, power windows/locks with security/remote functions, and a cd player are the only options I'd select to keep the hybrid affordable. Climate control, premium electronics, leather, plood and other gimmicks just drive hybrid prices beyond what most people can buy. By all means provide one for the affluent buyers, but give the poorer Joe's like us a means to get a hybrid.

rfruth · April 2002

The hybrid Matrix has been removed from the above mentioned fueleconomy.gov web site, I knew that was too good to be true, on another front keep hearing about the hydraulic powertrain - snip - (08:49 April 23, 2002) - The EPA says it has developed a hybrid powertrain capable of achieving 70 mpg in a mid-sized sedan such as the Ford Taurus. The car uses a conventional internal combustion engine attached to a pump to compress gaseous nitrogen in high-pressure tanks. Releasing the pressure pushes hydraulic fluid through a hydraulic motor, which turns the wheels.

marcb · April 2002

post and informed the site to remove it asap... dangit, and i was pretty excited about it already. maybe toyota will incorporate the hybrid estima vans technology on the upcoming redesign of the toyota sienna. i heard it's going to be released in 2 versions (short wheeled and long). on the other hand it would probably end up too expensive. oh well, if no hybrid fits my needs by next year then i'll just buy my current gas guzzler at lease end (or get a dirtier fuel miser diesel jetta wagon).

rfruth · May 2002

Just what I want (not) Microsoft in my car Microsoft's Automotive Technology Fuels New Volvo In-Car Computers [5/1/02] Microsoft Corp. announced at the ITS 2002 (Intelligent Transportation Systems) America annual meeting that Volvo Cars of North America LLC new line of vehicles contains advanced in-vehicle computing systems fueled by Microsoft technology. Microsoft's real-time embedded operating system,
Windows CE, powers the navigation devices in the 2002 Volvo S60, S80, and Cross Country models. The Windows Powered solution promises to provide Volvo motorists with safe and easy access to navigation systems in their cars.
Rob (Windows ME at home) Fruth

rfruth · May 2002

http://www.taxplanet.com/taxnews/energy042502/energy042502.html

rfruth · May 2002

It would be nice if the hybrids had a low tire pressure warning system - one that actually reads individual tire pressure, like the system in the Corvette.

daysailer · May 2002

for any car (about $250 from TireRack, IIRC).

The manufacturer's page is: http://www.smartire.com/fl/na/products/

rfruth · May 2002

May 21, 2002 BY BILL KOENIG BLOOMBERG NEWS Washington -- Gasoline-electric hybrid cars will be eligible for tax U.S. credits now granted to electric vehicles, the Internal Revenue Service said, a move that may boost sales of vehicles sold by Honda Motor Co. and Toyota Motor Corp. http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirkl21_20020521.htm

Gas-Electric Hybrid Vehicles: Features you'd like to see.

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