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I recently picked up a Z and wanted to get some opinions on how I did on my deal.
I had a 99 Pathfinder which was 23,000 miles over what I was allowed. At 15 cents a mile I owed close to $3500. The dealer bought my truck from the leasing company for $14,000. I was done making all payments on the car.
I picked up the Z for $3000 down, with tax and all the other costs i paid $3700 at time of purchase. I leased it for 5 years with a warranty covering all 5 years for $485 a month.
It is an enthusiasts model, chrome silver.
So how did I do? My buddy is telling me I got hosed.
Congrats soupsoupad on a new Z. Your gonna love it. Based on some simple figures, your going to pay about the same as MSRP. $ 29,100 lease payments plus $ 3700 down= $ 32,800. However, you will get hosed if you run up the miles like you did on the Pathfinder. And, after 5 years you still don't have the car. You were out about the same cash as if you were to pay the over mileage fee. Even if you were out some, you soon will forget about it with the blissful drive of the Z anyway. Don't worry about it, but watch that mileage.
and congrats on your new 350Z! I second luckyme's suggestion to not worry about it at this point.... Just enjoy your new car. We look forward to hearing about your ownership experience. Please keep us posted. Happy motoring!
A word to the wise....let the buyer beware...check that 350Z paint job real close. We first saw our potential 350Z shortly after it was stripped of its protective wrapping and was in the wash bay, adhesive marks and all, having just been delivered off the truck. We had noticed some very light "smear marks" (small 1/8" to 1/2" wide very light smear marks or light stains covering a 14 to 18 inch length) on one of the fenders and was told by the dealer that all that would be gone after it had a bath and was detailed, ready for sale. Sounded reasonable. We look at it again after prep, and it was still there, and would not wipe off. Since the car was going to receive an additional paint sealant protectant application, we were told that the prep process would eliminate any other adhesive or surface markings prior to application. We pointed it out a second time to the sales person, the sales manager, mentioned it to the dealership owner, had the service manager look at, prior to the sealant application, and they all came to the same conclusion, no one knows what it is. Possibly a reaction of the protective plastic material with the standard clearcoat finish, or a flaw in the factory painting process or inadequate prep prior to final application of paint or the clearcoat. After sealant prep and application, you guessed it, it's still there. Needless to say we are not real happy about this, but being a reasonable person I have an expectation that Nissan will make good on their product and their warranty for defects in workmanship. We took the vehicle to our local Nissan dealer service/paint & body experts, and they didn't have a clue, and were more interested in who was going to pay to fix it. We had our name, number and VIN put down on paper numerous times with an explanation that the area Nissan Rep would contact us to check it out and POSSIBLY authorize it to be refinished. We are still waiting for the phone to ring. I would have expected a little more attention to resolving this than what we are presently receiving, and am in the process of getting my ducks in a row to ensure my interests and investment are protected. Outstanding car, but this starting to give a bad taste, and some concern for things to come.
For those of you that have taken ownership, it would interesting to find out if anyone else is experiencing this, and what has been done to resolve it by Nissan. Our Z is Black and am wondering if it is only on that color line or if it appears in any of the other colors. I must say that in the bright of day, the overall magnificence of the vehicle takes your attention away from the detail, but upon close examination it becomes visible, and very irritating. The casual observer would probably never detect it or chalk it up to some road dirt that needs to be wiped off. Will eventually post some pictures of this troubling situation. I'll keep you posted.
Sorry to hear about the mess, sabre. I haven't heard of this before on any of the Z boards I frequent, but certainly there are going to be some mistakes in/on a complex machine ....
Certainly Nissan will fix your car. But it sounds like the paint people are a little bit anal. You might consider getting the SM and owner of the dealer ship involved since you mentioned showing the flaw to them. In any case, be as aggressive as possible in getting the zone mgr to approve.
You may not want to hear this at the moment, but ... perhaps I have more experience than you but I would have done the following: 1) I wouldn't pay for paint protectant as they can't add anything to clear coat better than wax, which I can do myself; 2)they don't get to deliver the car until it is repaired to my satisfaction; 3) if delivery is accepted, I'd want a letter from the zone mgr., sales mgr., someone with authority, stating that it would be fixed by some deadline I select, to my satisfaction, or my sales price would be redeemend in full.
Sorry if I'm rubbing salt into a wound ... I don't mean to. But you can file the experience (and the hassle) in your memory banks for future reference the next time you buy anything costing more than a day's salary.
Good luck. Keep us posted. If you have to play rough, you might list the names of all involved and post it here, print it off to show them the bad publicity and give it to them along with a copy of your attorney's card.
Just traded in my 1997 M3 for a new Z, which should arrive by Jan 2003. Since I had a 95 300Zx TT before, I think I probably will not be disappointed with the car. However, after my purchase at MSRP, the dealer took my trade at about 20K and a $1000 deposit. After the purchase, I priced out the car again at home and found the price I paid is $500 more than MSRP. After giving a call to the dealership, I was told that it is a "Marketing Initiative Cost" adding to ALL cars sold by Nissan. Since I was quite busy and the amount was small, I believed him. However, recently, I was curious and called Nissan's Customer service to inquire where this is indeed a standard charge. The rep told me that since the dealers are private they can charge anything the like ?! He was not at all helpful. However, the charge is not a standard for all dealers. But during my negotiation, I was told that the car will be sold to me at MSRP. So is the addition $500 a markup? The catch was the paper I signed did not have the options itemized and I did not catch the $500 extra. I have been used to dealing with BMW and Mercedes dealers in the past couple of years and all of them have been very honest and upfront. I am quite upset and fear that the quality of service from Nissan will be much worst than my experience with BMW. I was thinking of spending the extra 13K now for a M3 knowing that I would not have to deal with poor business practice of the Nissan dealer and customer service. My question is they now have my $1000 deposit plus $19000 of the trade in (since they insisted that I trade the car in on the spot but did not give me the money). Am I obligated to get my money back? The BMW dealer said that Illinois law(I live in Chicago) requires them to give me the entire amount back. The dealer I worked with was in Lisle. They are supposed to be a "CUSTOMER FIRST" dealership, which is a top customer service dealership, but I think otherwise. Sorry for the long post but I am expecting to have a long fight to get my money back
M3 vs. Z. Well if $ isn't an option I think the choice is obvious to me.....opinions may vary. If people are lining up at Nissan Dealers like they claim they shouldn't have any problem selling the Z you ordered.
Should be interesting....keep us posted on this one.
Mpower338, Sorry to hear about your dilemma. I've had a few really bad experiences with auto purchases. In '98, I discovered I was paying $2k above MSRP on our first leased auto, a Pathfinder. Welcome to money factor and all that lease jargon. They fixed that the next day when I made a lot of noise. The SM blamed the salesguy and cited that they want to keep customers with excellent credit so that they can lower the money factor.
Two years ago, I drove by a Honda dealer and saw two still-hot Odysseys. After sticking by my MSRP-only rule for the Navi EX model, they relented and we proceeded to the Finance guy. He then promptly went about pulling the fudge over our eyes, all tired now on top of the ad-hoc situation and my wife and kids who I summoned over. He told us about how banks like to reward people like us with super credit with freebies. Bottomline, he snowed us for an extra $1k which I discovered as soon as I got home and pulled out my HP calculator. Again fixed tomorrow after threatening with complaints to BBB, owner e.g. I looked at the Finance guy eye to eye who had, the night before, talked about his kids and ours, and blatantly told us that these figures are correct and that I don't need to do my own calcs since I don't have my PV/FV table. Moreover, as part of the credit app, he knows I have an MBA and that I will do my homework albeit late. Again he blamed the 'discrepancy' on the SM since they normally sell the Odyssey above MSRP.
You are right in that BMW don't play these tricks except that they may not give you the best rate which you need to check with BMW Financing. Buying our 540ai SP was hassle-free and subsequently our x5 4.4 SP was smooth. I was recently reminded of the sales tactics when I had to bring in my daily driver, a '01 Maxima for its service. The sales guys as well as the SM pounced on me for just sitting in the 350z. Instead of getting a brochure and info on accessories, I end up having to give them my info so that they can hassle me in the future. Very disappointing since I need a sportier daily runner. If only the M3 is not overpriced and more available.
Good luck getting BMW customer service at a Nissan dealership. It's not going to happen.
Makes me wonder why Volkswagon is going to try to sell $40,000+ cars at their dealership with the same schmucks that sell $20,000 cars daily...the quality of sales and service will not match the cars. If that was true, Toyota dealers would sell Lexus and Honda would sell Acura.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Here would be my take:
1. Dealers are free to charge whatever they want. That's why the "S" in MSRP stands for "suggested". It is up to the buyer to negotiate the actual price. Since you signed a sales contract for X dollars, I don't think you have much legal recourse, but if you had a conversation prior to the paperwork that said that the car was being sold for MSRP, then I'd have a conversation with the sales manager (and the dealer owner if necessary) explaining that the extra fee was slippped in and you didn't catch it.
2. Yes the $500 fee was additional markup. Everything over MSRP is. There are no hard and fast rules about what dealers will call additional fees over MSRP. Some will call it regional advertising fee, overhead, additional markup, market adjustment fee, etc. Many times they'll attempt to slip these fees in at the last second during the financing and paperwork step. Again, there is nothing illegal about charging over MSRP and sometimes the market will support it. It is up to the buyer to negotiate a final price.
3. You really shouldn't have traded your old car before you took delivery for the new car. You are now completely at their mercy as they have $19K of value and you have nothing. I hope they make timely delivery and the car is in good condition. If they don't you have very little recourse. They love this deal because they can sell your car now and get $19k+ without having to pay for the new car. There are two ways of handling a trade-in for a car to be delivered in the future: 1) you can just put a refundable deposit on the new car and negotiate the deal when the new car arrives; or 2) you can negotiate the deal now but let the dealer reserve the right to re-appraise your vehicle when the new car comes in - this is fair as market conditions can change, or the car could have many more miles, have been involved in a collision, etc. Of course, if they re-appraise and you can't reach agreement on the new value, then you can back out and get your deposit back.
4. It is truly absurd that they even requested that they put cash into the deal after taking possession of your old car. You essentially made a $20K deposit on a new car. This is truly absurd.
5. $19K for a 97 M3 seems awfully low to me. I think you agreed to $2K-$3K less than the wholesale value.
All in all, I'd say you made a very poor deal.
I doubt you have any legal recourse. You understood the terms and agreed to them. Water under the bridge, live and learn. I would go in and attempt to get the $500 back. They are making so much on this deal, I would think they'd be willing to do this for you. After this, I'd just get your new car and enjoy it. Life's too short to worry much about this sort of thing.
The dealer insisted that there is a "marketing assessment" which is a 2% charge on the invoice. He also insisted that I will pay exactly the price on the Nissan Sticker. I have already contacted Nissan USA and waiting for their response. I found out that they sold my M3 for $21,000. Which is close to what I would think it retails since I been to 5 dealers and all gave me around 18000 to 20000. The funny thing is, when I threatened to back out of the deal, he said I am fixed and cannot get my trade in back... but later when I got tough, he said that I can, but not the $1000 deposit. They were also saying that they don't know what to do with the car I ordered... what happenned to I can sell all the Zs I get?! I just don't enjoy the experience. I remember when I ordered the MINI and backed out of the the deal when I decided to get a more practical car as my daily driver ( a Jetta) ... they refunded my deposit with no question asked.
I will never buy another Nissan product again and stick with BMW or Mercedes....
I'm always very wary when I go into anything but a high end dealer. Here's another BMW story:
Last year when I leased my X5 I was undecided between an new X5 and a slightly used E46 M3 that they had on the lot. We kicked around lease numbers between the two. We decided on the X5, negotiated a price then plugged it into a lease, signed the papers and drove out. The next morning I get a call from the dealership to come in and resign the papers because they'd accidentally left the higher M3 lease factor in the computer and my lease payment was $45 a month less. They had a BMW mug, mousepad, X5 keychain, polo shirt and baseball cap all waiting for me for the inconvenience of having to come back.
On the bright side, you won't deal with the sales dept. after the delivery. My experience with local Nissan stores is that the service departments are quite good while the salesmen are stupid, liars, or both. (More on that below.)
Is it time to turn the tables a bit? Here are several things I'd do to call their hanky panky. Print off this discussion; display the bad publicity for them to see. Show them copies of two posts you plan to make -- one will compliment them on relenting and taking you back to ground zero, where you should be anyway. The other will show their name and confirm their greed and customer unfriendliness; also have in hand the letter you have composed to the local newpaper, an outline of the call you will now make to the BBB, and the results of your initial call to your family lawyer who plans to drop a note to the state's atty. general, cc: the dealership and cc: Nissan.
YOu can follow through or not, depending on how you decide to go. Without the clout of bad publicity, and some sort of a hardball bluff like this, you really are (imo) stuck in the position that markjenn described.
By the way, read the earlier posts from today: don't accept the car unless it is exactly what you've ordered and is perfect.
On the lighter side: I stopped at the local dealer today to see a silverstone performance model on the floor. The sales mgr was by himself as his elves were all in a training meeting. So I looked at the car and heard the following. Don't trust any of it since he is the head liar and there is at least one overt lie (for which I went ahead a contradicted him with numbers, and he even had the #%^*s to blush) and it is questionable if he has a clue what he's talking about anyway:
1) They have two orders still out, but their allocation has been increased. [Does this mean demand is down?]
2) They have an Enthusiast model they will let me drive, as it is in prep, tomorrow if I can go back in when "my" salesman is available. ["My" salesman is an even bigger moron and I disclaim all personal relationships with him. I'll try for the ride, if it's not raining too hard, but not tomorrow as I certainly don't want to look anxious.]
3) The Infiniti G35c costs nearly $10,000 more. [I told him I wanted to drive the two cars before I decided which I liked better.]
4) Except for two extra seats there are no differences between the two cars. [Not if you've had a lobotomy.]
5) An order now will arrive in January. [Quite a big move up from the March they were saying last week. Come to think of it, he didn't say which year.]
6) Leather Nissan seat covers, which look exactly like the black Touring seats, or one other in two tone gray/silver (or white), are a dealer installed option selling for ... ummm ... $975. [I'm interested in having the Nissan "accessory" upgrade installed on a track.)
7) This leather accessory will eliminate the possibility of having the air bag option installed. [I've seen this elsewhere.]
8) The passenger seat bag switch is available now from Nissan, but you have to have the proper govt. paperwork. [Makes sense.]
So you can believe what you want. I wouldn't believe any of it without separate confirmation. If you get it, please post the back up, so we know.
JWilson1, Thanks for the input on our paint plight. Last night we got a call from JD Powers survey folks regarding the Z purchase, and not having any gripe with the dealer, we passed on the paint issue on this Nissan product. We were told we would be contacted by a company rep very shortly. This afternoon we were advised by our local dealership that an inspector for Nissan wants to look at the vehicle as soon as possible. At least we are seeing some movement.
We would NEVER pay for sealant or any other dealer pack item, however, we made it part of the deal along with a few other odds and ends, since no one is negotiating below MSRP this week. We got exactly what we wanted for our trade, and a few perks, now we just need to work through the resolution of the issue, which I feel will happen.
I have taken a very close, well lighted look at the "flaws". From what I can see, the staining or discoloration is well below the clearcoat. There is obvious depth from the surface down through the clearcoat finish before you get to the problem. Is it the paint? Was it a lack of attention to make sure the surface was clean prior to applying the clear finish? Don't know, but there is no way I can tag the dealer for this, nor would I want to. They prep'd the car, but, unless you are looking at every square inch at a very close range you would not see the flaws. They are standing behind the sale with no pushback on making it "right". They will even reapply sealant once the fix has been made and the work has cured, no charge. We have purchased six Nissans from these folks since February of this year (a 3.5 Altima, (2) SE-R's, a Spec V, a 2.5S Altima and the Z. No one in the area could even come close to their deals, and trade values. Very satisfied. This is truly a manufacturing problem that Nissan will have to make good on. I agree, we need to establish a completion time. Everyone was onboard with the problem as soon as we arrived at the dealership on Monday. The dealership owner, the service manager, the sales manager and sales person. Even with the paint flaw, I don't think my wife will want to part with it now...she has had that Z bonding experience!!! I will post the outcome.
is throwing more than 2000 down on a lease a bad idea other than the fact it lowers your monthly payments? figuring you are putting more money into a car you arent necessarily buying is one way to look at it. the flipside i've heard is that it buys you more equity into the car putting you in a better position to trade the car as the lease goes on.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with putting more money down on a lease, but it sort of defeats one of the main purposes of the lease - not having capital tied up. There are even lease deals now where you pay off the entire lease upfront and don't make another payment. Whether it is a good deal all depends on the numbers.
I don't usually lease, but if I do, I'm doing it to keep absolutely as much money in my pocket as I can, so I'd go for lowest initial fees I could swing.
Marketing Assessment is a legitimate charge on the invoice; however, you should only be charged this fee if you negotiated a price based on the invoice. If you negotiated a price based on MSRP, you should not pay it, as it is not mentioned anywhere on the window sticker.
is throwing more than 2000 down on a lease a bad idea other than the fact it lowers your monthly payments? figuring you are putting more money into a car you arent necessarily buying is one way to look at it. the flipside i've heard is that it buys you more equity into the car putting you in a better position to trade the car as the lease goes on.
I believe putting ANY money on a lease is sorta silly they have a set residual value, so you only get lower lease payments. If you have 2k now and this will only save you $20 a month, why not hold onto the 2k? You get interest from the money and as time goes by your lease payment will seem lower as $350 today will be feel like less money in say 2004. The 2k can also go toward something that will get you more money...home improvements, investments, etc.
For those who have tried the auto versus a manual tranny, is the auto that much slower? I dont know how to drive a manual, but I guess I would be willing to learn. Some say it is silly to be driving a sports car like the 350Z with an auto ... I dunno, what do you all think?
Another question if I do get the manual, will it be a pain to drive in traffic?
That's what they call lowering the monthly with your own cash, isn't it. Well, I think it's a terrible idea and I'd be a nervous wreck if I did it, though I understand the charm of lower payments and the fact that loads of people do it.
I'd be nervous because I've just paid $XXXXXX thousand dollars, either in cap cost reduction or even paying the entire lease off (so with no further payments, delightful!)... only to drive out of the dealer and get run over by a Navigator or Suburban. (Freshalloy has some enchanting pix of what the Z looks like after it's been totalled.) Now: the insurance the lease company insists you pay for in your lease agreement now pays off the residual for the lease. But you don't see a penny of your $$$ used to lower payments again. You lose the whole wad.
As they say, stuff happens, and if it happens to you, you're probably a little better off if your money at least is in the bank.
As much as I hate to admit it, automatic transmissions have made such great advances that there really is minimal loss in performance. It's just the dinosaurs like me that keep manuals around so we can feel like we are really driving the car. Go ahead, get the auto, I'm sure the car will still be a blast to drive.
The 350 auto actually also has a Manual Mode, so you can shift yourself in-case you want to play with the stick. You bump the stick up and down (or forward and back) to shift gears. Similar to some Chrysler cars such as PT Crusier.
bought my first auto, because of a new commute every day in heavy traffic, but believe me, I already miss the stick! There is just no comparison.
OTOH, I think the satisfaction and fun of having ths stick would be lost on someone who learned it just to drive a certain car, so for you the auto would be just fine I am sure. This car is going to be hecka fast either way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Very nice car in terms of design and style. Looks like it's going 100 miles and hour even while it's standing still.
The show had the Touring model on display and tons of people gathered around it. It was a copper-like (forgive my poor color description) color painted on the Z and looked gorgeous.
This time, it was a Touring model with the manual transmission and power seats. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to drive the car. I had the same problem I encountered with the Enthusiast model's manual seat - it still doesn't go back far enough. For the heck of it (and to see if the lack of space was just my imagination), I went and sat in a BMW 325 and WOW!!! - the seat went back at least 2" farther than it needed.
What a shame Nissan couldn't make this car to accomodate a 6'2" driver better. One of the original 240Z's requirements was that it fit a driver of this height. What a disappointment - especially considering plastic molding and a speaker behind the seat is responsible for the lack of space. What a screw-up!
What a shame Nissan couldn't make this car to accomodate a 6'2" driver better. One of the original 240Z's requirements was that it fit a driver of this height. What a disappointment - especially considering plastic molding and a speaker behind the seat is responsible for the lack of space. What a screw-up!
Sounds to me like you have odd proportions as I know people over 6 foot who are buying G35s and 350Zs. 42 inches of leg room and 38 inches of head room translate into a car that should fit people over 6 feet. My guess is you have a shorter inseam and longer torso than most.
jaquino, just my opinion in the matter. I have a 350Z Enthusiast with the automatic. I have owned several manuals, and in sporty cars. As mentioned, if you want to drive, and I mean "drive", then a manual is probably a better choice. But for the majority (98%) of the time, I really prefer the automatic. The manual tranny is somewhat cumbersome in traffic, and most driving in the city. My Z is a blast to drive on backroads, highway, city or wherever with the automatic, and this tranny is great. Someone who wants to drag race may have a slight edge with the manual, but who really cares ??? Who's racing these things anyway. If you want a Z, with an automatic...GO FOR IT. You won't be disappointed. And you can even manage to conveniently sip a nice stainless thermo mug of java while you cruise along the boulevard smiling at the gaukers.
You have the exact model and tranny that I want to get, thanks for sharing . I originally thought to get a manual and save some bucks, but I do drive in traffic and your logic makes perfect sense. I would hate to feel I made a mistake in getting a stick down the road, especially for a costly vehicle like this. And being 30 years old, I too could care less about street racing.
One question though, how is the manual mode on your auto? I had tested a Passat 1.8T with auto a couple of months ago and the thing took a whole second to shift to the next gear when using the auto-stick. Is the 350Z any better?
Also, I know the auto-stick is a toy... do you even find it useful? I only see using the thing maybe to downshift when going down a steep hill.
But as far as 30 being "over the hill" please know that I'm looking at one with the specific intent of using it for autoX and rallying, just as I've done for many of my almost 60 years.
As a matt4er of fact, I also have an auto, in my Acura, a fine road car. The reviews of the automatic in the Z are very good; apparently it is quick both up and down, but keep in mind that statement includes "for an automatic." If you want to use torque out of the normal power band you can always use the select shift, which will letyou take the gear all the way to red line if you insist.
I did not know that autos were being used in Auto-Cross events, I always thought all drivers used the stick. Nice comment about the "over the hill" thing hehehe. I did not mean to make a blanket statement that being 30 means a person will not want to race, I guess I should have prefaced that with me losing interest in racing (specifically racing the guy next to you at a stop-light) when I turned 30. I got a chuckle out of that though hehehe.
Thanks for the info on the auto too! I did not know that you could redline it, most auto-sticks will shift to the next gear if you even approach the redline.
In response to your question, jaquino. I find the auto-stick somewhat of a toy, since I am not a very aggressive driver. What I mean is that I do not push my cars to the redline as a typical acceleration method. It is nice to use from time to time, but 99% of the time it is in drive. I only have about 700 miles on the Z, so I am still in the break-in period, which I try to follow the suggested 4000 RPM max during the first 1200 miles. It is my understanding that the Z will allow you to run the engine on up without auto shifting when you are in the auto stick mode. I also have an 02 Mercedes C230 Kompressor coupe with the auto stick, which seems a little slower than the Z auto stick. As far as auto transmissions go, the Z is mighty fine in auto mode, and fairly responsive in the auto stick, although I must say I have not tested it in high revs. It is nice to know of a 30 year old looking to get a 350Z, and not run the piss out of it. Thats a bit refreshing, and will be a nice car for the used car buyer down the road too. I have sold a few "sporty cars" and the buyers were delighted to see the pristine car, and liked the fact that they had not been thrashed. It helped get a good $ for the car, and usually sold to the first looker. By the way, I am 40 now. At 30, it would have been real cool to have a car like the 350Z. Enjoy this opportunity.
I created a misunderstanding. Sorry to take my turn on that:
The "it" I'm referring to is a 350Z but for autoX it will be a manual -- when I'm not in traffic I much prefer shifting for myself. Old-fashioned some say. It's the Acura that's an auto.
As to your question if automatics are used for autoX. Certainly. They're not competitive, but autoX is mostly for fun and you'll see some of everything especially from competitors who decide to see what the family bus will do. A person on one of the boards here -- forget who -- says he ran his X5. I've seen a Caprice out there: picture a fish out of water! One person wanted to do a VW bus but it couldn't pass the safety inspection which, if you'd like to give autoX a try, isn't very sophisticated but it is common sense and pretty exacting in its requirements. Cheap fun, unless you decide to try to win a class.
Lukyme: Thanks for the info, it looks like the auto will be plenty good for me. I have not seen an auto in person, most of the Z's in my area are of the manual variety so I really have not been able to test drive one. You have been very helpful and I appreciate it. I tend to keep my RPMs in the 3000 or less range... but I think the Z will be plenty fast even at that low RPM
JWilson: A VW bus trying to Auto-X, now that just cracked me up hehehe. It would be amusing to see if the guy actually passed the safety inspection LOL. Please post pics if you happen to see these kinds of things, that would be just hillarious!
I made the rounds at the dealerships during the pre-production sale days this past summer. After hitting three Nissan dealers, I decided to wait until the car became more available before giving it any serious consideration. Well, one of those dealers called yesterday stating they had the model I was interested in (silver/black leather/six speed) in stock and available.
As a follow-up to our paint issue on a Black 350Z (touring/auto/aero) - when the side of the car was illuminated by drop light, flashlight or the flash of a camera, the leopard spots appeared on the right front fender area. Everyone agreed that it appeared to be between the clearcoat and the paint. Maybe buffing "burn through" prior to clearcoat application. Our local Nissan dealer was quite helpful (even though they did not sell us the car) and contacted the area Nissan inspector, to come make a determination. Within 6 calendar days of the first notification, the inspector checked it out with his trusty inspection penlight and told the Nissan paint and body guys what to do. If it worked, everyone would be happy, if it didn't it was a refinished quarter panel courtesy of Nissan. We were very fortunate that, for whatever reason, the adhesive compound use to hold the protective material to the car had not been completely removed, even though it was washed twice, buffed, rubbed, and anything else that could be done was, but yet it did not go away, and appeared to be under the clearcoat. The fix was to apply some heat to the areas, which allowed the material to evaporate. IT'S GONE. NO MORE LEOPARD SPOTS anywhere!!! We continue to monitor to ensure that the fix is permanent and there is no damage to the clearcoat. Could have been a lot worse. Our next project is to solve the "driving on slick roads, and snow" Looks like a trip to TireRack is in the cards now. We found that with ANY precip near freezing or a light dusting of snow makes the car a bear to handle over 10MPH. Even at that speed, and going into the manual mode to downshift the rear end would try to come around. Anyone else know of some reasonably priced wheels and tires that are on the market that they have had success with????
I'm very happy your problem with the paint resolved itself so successfully. And it gave me a chance to learn something today other than how much food I can still down ....
The tires are a problem. Tire Rack has a note up when you search -- you've probably already seen this -- that asks you to call them to speak with a technician re: winter tires. This is because there are none, according to all of the "experts" who've done the homework on freshalloy.com. So you have to do some adjusting and make some compromises. Once again, maybe we can all learn from your experience -- please post the results for us and let us know what the rest of us are in for.
Finally, a question: where is the switch for the VDC ... to turn it off, I mean?
Any update on how much dealers are now charging on Z's? Is it over, at or below MSRP? There seems to be quite a few cars now available or atleast it appears that way.
Went to a local Long Island dealer today, 4 Zs in the showroom (all locked, I could not sit in them), 2 on the lot, all unsold. Rather then offering to open one, the salesman's first words were "there is no markup on these cars, all selling at MSRP". That's when I asked him if the cars were locked because they were already sold, "no" was the answer. Based on this experience, with winter coming, they will be discounting these cars by the spring I'll predict.
Aside from that, the car is very nice, they should have a sequential manual gearbox for it.
I think those sequential gearboxes are too expensive. I'd rather see Nissan put its development money into a turbo version of the Z.
Actually the SMGs on the BMW and MR2 do not cost that much. The more commonplace they become, the more the prices will drop. Within 10-15 years I can't see many companies still making the old fashion manuals or automatics (CVTs will replace autos, no doubt).
Apparently our touring model is not worthy of a VDC switch. We have the TCS switch, it is an automatic "on" feature unless you shut it off and can be reset by restarting the car. The manual call for "either a VDC or TCS" system.
Regarding snow tires....we are located near a TireRack warehouse, along the Indiana Toll road, about 7 minutes from work and 40 minutes from the house. I did notice the "call" notification on their page when sizing tires for the Z. We are looking for Bridgestone Blizzaks and low cost wheels, unless someone can talk me out of it or make a better recommendation. Not interested in speed or how pretty they look, just how well you can maintain control and braking in snow and icy roads. We also have to tire the son's Spec V, which is also a real treat on the road with any type of precip. bbm
Thanks sabre, but where is the switch you mention?
I think marketing would get in the way of offering an SMG at this point. Maybe in the next generation Z, but this one is supposed to be, above all, retro.
I was looking through some Z forums and I found this guy on zcar.com claiming a 0-60 time of 5.8 seconds for his automatic. For me thats incredible, considering the best time for this car is 5.4, and thats on a manual!!! I usually expect most autos to be at least 1 second slower than a manual.
What do you guys think? If this is true then the Z has a pretty impressive auto.
Comments
I had a 99 Pathfinder which was 23,000 miles over what I was allowed. At 15 cents a mile I owed close to $3500. The dealer bought my truck from the leasing company for $14,000. I was done making all payments on the car.
I picked up the Z for $3000 down, with tax and all the other costs i paid $3700 at time of purchase. I leased it for 5 years with a warranty covering all 5 years for $485 a month.
It is an enthusiasts model, chrome silver.
So how did I do? My buddy is telling me I got hosed.
Based on some simple figures, your going to pay about the same as MSRP. $ 29,100 lease payments plus $ 3700 down= $ 32,800. However, you will get hosed if you run up the miles like you did on the Pathfinder. And, after 5 years you still don't have the car. You were out about the same cash as if you were to pay the over mileage fee. Even if you were out some, you soon will forget about it with the blissful drive of the Z anyway. Don't worry about it, but watch that mileage.
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
I forgot to mention I was given 17,500 miles per year, so that should help!
For those of you that have taken ownership, it would interesting to find out if anyone else is experiencing this, and what has been done to resolve it by Nissan. Our Z is Black and am wondering if it is only on that color line or if it appears in any of the other colors. I must say that in the bright of day, the overall magnificence of the vehicle takes your attention away from the detail, but upon close examination it becomes visible, and very irritating. The casual observer would probably never detect it or chalk it up to some road dirt that needs to be wiped off.
Will eventually post some pictures of this troubling situation. I'll keep you posted.
Certainly Nissan will fix your car. But it sounds like the paint people are a little bit anal. You might consider getting the SM and owner of the dealer ship involved since you mentioned showing the flaw to them. In any case, be as aggressive as possible in getting the zone mgr to approve.
You may not want to hear this at the moment, but ... perhaps I have more experience than you but I would have done the following: 1) I wouldn't pay for paint protectant as they can't add anything to clear coat better than wax, which I can do myself; 2)they don't get to deliver the car until it is repaired to my satisfaction; 3) if delivery is accepted, I'd want a letter from the zone mgr., sales mgr., someone with authority, stating that it would be fixed by some deadline I select, to my satisfaction, or my sales price would be redeemend in full.
Sorry if I'm rubbing salt into a wound ... I don't mean to. But you can file the experience (and the hassle) in your memory banks for future reference the next time you buy anything costing more than a day's salary.
Good luck. Keep us posted. If you have to play rough, you might list the names of all involved and post it here, print it off to show them the bad publicity and give it to them along with a copy of your attorney's card.
JW
Should be interesting....keep us posted on this one.
Sorry to hear about your dilemma. I've had a few really bad experiences with auto purchases. In '98, I discovered I was paying $2k above MSRP on our first leased auto, a Pathfinder. Welcome to money factor and all that lease jargon. They fixed that the next day when I made a lot of noise. The SM blamed the salesguy and cited that they want to keep customers with excellent credit so that they can lower the money factor.
Two years ago, I drove by a Honda dealer and saw two still-hot Odysseys. After sticking by my MSRP-only rule for the Navi EX model, they relented and we proceeded to the Finance guy. He then promptly went about pulling the fudge over our eyes, all tired now on top of the ad-hoc situation and my wife and kids who I summoned over. He told us about how banks like to reward people like us with super credit with freebies. Bottomline, he snowed us for an extra $1k which I discovered as soon as I got home and pulled out my HP calculator. Again fixed tomorrow after threatening with complaints to BBB, owner e.g. I looked at the Finance guy eye to eye who had, the night before, talked about his kids and ours, and blatantly told us that these figures are correct and that I don't need to do my own calcs since I don't have my PV/FV table. Moreover, as part of the credit app, he knows I have an MBA and that I will do my homework albeit late. Again he blamed the 'discrepancy' on the SM since they normally sell the Odyssey above MSRP.
You are right in that BMW don't play these tricks except that they may not give you the best rate which you need to check with BMW Financing. Buying our 540ai SP was hassle-free and subsequently our x5 4.4 SP was smooth.
I was recently reminded of the sales tactics when I had to bring in my daily driver, a '01 Maxima for its service. The sales guys as well as the SM pounced on me for just sitting in the 350z. Instead of getting a brochure and info on accessories, I end up having to give them my info so that they can hassle me in the future. Very disappointing since I need a sportier daily runner. If only the M3 is not overpriced and more available.
...R
Makes me wonder why Volkswagon is going to try to sell $40,000+ cars at their dealership with the same schmucks that sell $20,000 cars daily...the quality of sales and service will not match the cars. If that was true, Toyota dealers would sell Lexus and Honda would sell Acura.
1. Dealers are free to charge whatever they want. That's why the "S" in MSRP stands for "suggested". It is up to the buyer to negotiate the actual price. Since you signed a sales contract for X dollars, I don't think you have much legal recourse, but if you had a conversation prior to the paperwork that said that the car was being sold for MSRP, then I'd have a conversation with the sales manager (and the dealer owner if necessary) explaining that the extra fee was slippped in and you didn't catch it.
2. Yes the $500 fee was additional markup. Everything over MSRP is. There are no hard and fast rules about what dealers will call additional fees over MSRP. Some will call it regional advertising fee, overhead, additional markup, market adjustment fee, etc. Many times they'll attempt to slip these fees in at the last second during the financing and paperwork step. Again, there is nothing illegal about charging over MSRP and sometimes the market will support it. It is up to the buyer to negotiate a final price.
3. You really shouldn't have traded your old car before you took delivery for the new car. You are now completely at their mercy as they have $19K of value and you have nothing. I hope they make timely delivery and the car is in good condition. If they don't you have very little recourse. They love this deal because they can sell your car now and get $19k+ without having to pay for the new car. There are two ways of handling a trade-in for a car to be delivered in the future: 1) you can just put a refundable deposit on the new car and negotiate the deal when the new car arrives; or 2) you can negotiate the deal now but let the dealer reserve the right to re-appraise your vehicle when the new car comes in - this is fair as market conditions can change, or the car could have many more miles, have been involved in a collision, etc. Of course, if they re-appraise and you can't reach agreement on the new value, then you can back out and get your deposit back.
4. It is truly absurd that they even requested that they put cash into the deal after taking possession of your old car. You essentially made a $20K deposit on a new car. This is truly absurd.
5. $19K for a 97 M3 seems awfully low to me. I think you agreed to $2K-$3K less than the wholesale value.
All in all, I'd say you made a very poor deal.
I doubt you have any legal recourse. You understood the terms and agreed to them. Water under the bridge, live and learn. I would go in and attempt to get the $500 back. They are making so much on this deal, I would think they'd be willing to do this for you. After this, I'd just get your new car and enjoy it. Life's too short to worry much about this sort of thing.
Good luck,
- Mark
I will never buy another Nissan product again and stick with BMW or Mercedes....
Last year when I leased my X5 I was undecided between an new X5 and a slightly used E46 M3 that they had on the lot. We kicked around lease numbers between the two. We decided on the X5, negotiated a price then plugged it into a lease, signed the papers and drove out. The next morning I get a call from the dealership to come in and resign the papers because they'd accidentally left the higher M3 lease factor in the computer and my lease payment was $45 a month less. They had a BMW mug, mousepad, X5 keychain, polo shirt and baseball cap all waiting for me for the inconvenience of having to come back.
Is it time to turn the tables a bit? Here are several things I'd do to call their hanky panky. Print off this discussion; display the bad publicity for them to see. Show them copies of two posts you plan to make -- one will compliment them on relenting and taking you back to ground zero, where you should be anyway. The other will show their name and confirm their greed and customer unfriendliness; also have in hand the letter you have composed to the local newpaper, an outline of the call you will now make to the BBB, and the results of your initial call to your family lawyer who plans to drop a note to the state's atty. general, cc: the dealership and cc: Nissan.
YOu can follow through or not, depending on how you decide to go. Without the clout of bad publicity, and some sort of a hardball bluff like this, you really are (imo) stuck in the position that markjenn described.
By the way, read the earlier posts from today: don't accept the car unless it is exactly what you've ordered and is perfect.
On the lighter side: I stopped at the local dealer today to see a silverstone performance model on the floor. The sales mgr was by himself as his elves were all in a training meeting. So I looked at the car and heard the following. Don't trust any of it since he is the head liar and there is at least one overt lie (for which I went ahead a contradicted him with numbers, and he even had the #%^*s to blush) and it is questionable if he has a clue what he's talking about anyway:
1) They have two orders still out, but their allocation has been increased. [Does this mean demand is down?]
2) They have an Enthusiast model they will let me drive, as it is in prep, tomorrow if I can go back in when "my" salesman is available. ["My" salesman is an even bigger moron and I disclaim all personal relationships with him. I'll try for the ride, if it's not raining too hard, but not tomorrow as I certainly don't want to look anxious.]
3) The Infiniti G35c costs nearly $10,000 more. [I told him I wanted to drive the two cars before I decided which I liked better.]
4) Except for two extra seats there are no differences between the two cars. [Not if you've had a lobotomy.]
5) An order now will arrive in January. [Quite a big move up from the March they were saying last week. Come to think of it, he didn't say which year.]
6) Leather Nissan seat covers, which look exactly like the black Touring seats, or one other in two tone gray/silver (or white), are a dealer installed option selling for ... ummm ... $975. [I'm interested in having the Nissan "accessory" upgrade installed on a track.)
7) This leather accessory will eliminate the possibility of having the air bag option installed. [I've seen this elsewhere.]
8) The passenger seat bag switch is available now from Nissan, but you have to have the proper govt. paperwork. [Makes sense.]
So you can believe what you want. I wouldn't believe any of it without separate confirmation. If you get it, please post the back up, so we know.
JW
Thanks for the input on our paint plight. Last night we got a call from JD Powers survey folks regarding the Z purchase, and not having any gripe with the dealer, we passed on the paint issue on this Nissan product. We were told we would be contacted by a company rep very shortly. This afternoon we were advised by our local dealership that an inspector for Nissan wants to look at the vehicle as soon as possible. At least we are seeing some movement.
We would NEVER pay for sealant or any other dealer pack item, however, we made it part of the deal along with a few other odds and ends, since no one is negotiating below MSRP this week. We got exactly what we wanted for our trade, and a few perks, now we just need to work through the resolution of the issue, which I feel will happen.
I have taken a very close, well lighted look at the "flaws". From what I can see, the staining or discoloration is well below the clearcoat. There is obvious depth from the surface down through the clearcoat finish before you get to the problem. Is it the paint? Was it a lack of attention to make sure the surface was clean prior to applying the clear finish? Don't know, but there is no way I can tag the dealer for this, nor would I want to. They prep'd the car, but, unless you are looking at every square inch at a very close range you would not see the flaws. They are standing behind the sale with no pushback on making it "right". They will even reapply sealant once the fix has been made and the work has cured, no charge. We have purchased six Nissans from these folks since February of this year (a 3.5 Altima, (2) SE-R's, a Spec V, a 2.5S Altima and the Z. No one in the area could even come close to their deals, and trade values. Very satisfied. This is truly a manufacturing problem that Nissan will have to make good on. I agree, we need to establish a completion time. Everyone was onboard with the problem as soon as we arrived at the dealership on Monday. The dealership owner, the service manager, the sales manager and sales person.
Even with the paint flaw, I don't think my wife will want to part with it now...she has had that Z bonding experience!!! I will post the outcome.
bbm
is throwing more than 2000 down on a lease a bad idea other than the fact it lowers your monthly payments? figuring you are putting more money into a car you arent necessarily buying is one way to look at it. the flipside i've heard is that it buys you more equity into the car putting you in a better position to trade the car as the lease goes on.
any comments?
I don't usually lease, but if I do, I'm doing it to keep absolutely as much money in my pocket as I can, so I'd go for lowest initial fees I could swing.
- Mark
I believe putting ANY money on a lease is sorta silly they have a set residual value, so you only get lower lease payments. If you have 2k now and this will only save you $20 a month, why not hold onto the 2k? You get interest from the money and as time goes by your lease payment will seem lower as $350 today will be feel like less money in say 2004. The 2k can also go toward something that will get you more money...home improvements, investments, etc.
Another question if I do get the manual, will it be a pain to drive in traffic?
Thanks for your input!
I'd be nervous because I've just paid $XXXXXX thousand dollars, either in cap cost reduction or even paying the entire lease off (so with no further payments, delightful!)... only to drive out of the dealer and get run over by a Navigator or Suburban. (Freshalloy has some enchanting pix of what the Z looks like after it's been totalled.) Now: the insurance the lease company insists you pay for in your lease agreement now pays off the residual for the lease. But you don't see a penny of your $$$ used to lower payments again. You lose the whole wad.
As they say, stuff happens, and if it happens to you, you're probably a little better off if your money at least is in the bank.
JW
OTOH, I think the satisfaction and fun of having ths stick would be lost on someone who learned it just to drive a certain car, so for you the auto would be just fine I am sure. This car is going to be hecka fast either way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Very nice car in terms of design and style. Looks like it's going 100 miles and hour even while it's standing still.
The show had the Touring model on display and tons of people gathered around it. It was a copper-like (forgive my poor color description) color painted on the Z and looked gorgeous.
I'm sold on it - now to win the lottery... :-)
What a shame Nissan couldn't make this car to accomodate a 6'2" driver better. One of the original 240Z's requirements was that it fit a driver of this height. What a disappointment - especially considering plastic molding and a speaker behind the seat is responsible for the lack of space. What a screw-up!
No Z for me...
Sounds to me like you have odd proportions as I know people over 6 foot who are buying G35s and 350Zs. 42 inches of leg room and 38 inches of head room translate into a car that should fit people over 6 feet. My guess is you have a shorter inseam and longer torso than most.
JW
If you want a Z, with an automatic...GO FOR IT. You won't be disappointed. And you can even manage to conveniently sip a nice stainless thermo mug of java while you cruise along the boulevard smiling at the gaukers.
One question though, how is the manual mode on your auto? I had tested a Passat 1.8T with auto a couple of months ago and the thing took a whole second to shift to the next gear when using the auto-stick. Is the 350Z any better?
Also, I know the auto-stick is a toy... do you even find it useful? I only see using the thing maybe to downshift when going down a steep hill.
Thanks again!
But as far as 30 being "over the hill" please know that I'm looking at one with the specific intent of using it for autoX and rallying, just as I've done for many of my almost 60 years.
As a matt4er of fact, I also have an auto, in my Acura, a fine road car. The reviews of the automatic in the Z are very good; apparently it is quick both up and down, but keep in mind that statement includes "for an automatic." If you want to use torque out of the normal power band you can always use the select shift, which will letyou take the gear all the way to red line if you insist.
Good luck.
JW
Thanks for the info on the auto too! I did not know that you could redline it, most auto-sticks will shift to the next gear if you even approach the redline.
I find the auto-stick somewhat of a toy, since I am not a very aggressive driver. What I mean is that I do not push my cars to the redline as a typical acceleration method. It is nice to use from time to time, but 99% of the time it is in drive. I only have about 700 miles on the Z, so I am still in the break-in period, which I try to follow the suggested 4000 RPM max during the first 1200 miles. It is my understanding that the Z will allow you to run the engine on up without auto shifting when you are in the auto stick mode. I also have an 02 Mercedes C230 Kompressor coupe with the auto stick, which seems a little slower than the Z auto stick. As far as auto transmissions go, the Z is mighty fine in auto mode, and fairly responsive in the auto stick, although I must say I have not tested it in high revs.
It is nice to know of a 30 year old looking to get a 350Z, and not run the piss out of it. Thats a bit refreshing, and will be a nice car for the used car buyer down the road too. I have sold a few "sporty cars" and the buyers were delighted to see the pristine car, and liked the fact that they had not been thrashed. It helped get a good $ for the car, and usually sold to the first looker.
By the way, I am 40 now. At 30, it would have been real cool to have a car like the 350Z. Enjoy this opportunity.
The "it" I'm referring to is a 350Z but for autoX it will be a manual -- when I'm not in traffic I much prefer shifting for myself. Old-fashioned some say. It's the Acura that's an auto.
As to your question if automatics are used for autoX. Certainly. They're not competitive, but autoX is mostly for fun and you'll see some of everything especially from competitors who decide to see what the family bus will do. A person on one of the boards here -- forget who -- says he ran his X5. I've seen a Caprice out there: picture a fish out of water! One person wanted to do a VW bus but it couldn't pass the safety inspection which, if you'd like to give autoX a try, isn't very sophisticated but it is common sense and pretty exacting in its requirements. Cheap fun, unless you decide to try to win a class.
Best for the holiday.
JW
JWilson: A VW bus trying to Auto-X, now that just cracked me up hehehe. It would be amusing to see if the guy actually passed the safety inspection LOL. Please post pics if you happen to see these kinds of things, that would be just hillarious!
Happy Thanksgiving guys!
Could have been a lot worse. Our next project is to solve the "driving on slick roads, and snow" Looks like a trip to TireRack is in the cards now. We found that with ANY precip near freezing or a light dusting of snow makes the car a bear to handle over 10MPH. Even at that speed, and going into the manual mode to downshift the rear end would try to come around. Anyone else know of some reasonably priced wheels and tires that are on the market that they have had success with????
The tires are a problem. Tire Rack has a note up when you search -- you've probably already seen this -- that asks you to call them to speak with a technician re: winter tires. This is because there are none, according to all of the "experts" who've done the homework on freshalloy.com. So you have to do some adjusting and make some compromises. Once again, maybe we can all learn from your experience -- please post the results for us and let us know what the rest of us are in for.
Finally, a question: where is the switch for the VDC ... to turn it off, I mean?
JW
Aside from that, the car is very nice, they should have a sequential manual gearbox for it.
Actually the SMGs on the BMW and MR2 do not cost that much. The more commonplace they become, the more the prices will drop. Within 10-15 years I can't see many companies still making the old fashion manuals or automatics (CVTs will replace autos, no doubt).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Regarding snow tires....we are located near a TireRack warehouse, along the Indiana Toll road, about 7 minutes from work and 40 minutes from the house. I did notice the "call" notification on their page when sizing tires for the Z. We are looking for Bridgestone Blizzaks and low cost wheels, unless someone can talk me out of it or make a better recommendation. Not interested in speed or how pretty they look, just how well you can maintain control and braking in snow and icy roads. We also have to tire the son's Spec V, which is also a real treat on the road with any type of precip.
bbm
I think marketing would get in the way of offering an SMG at this point. Maybe in the next generation Z, but this one is supposed to be, above all, retro.
JW
I was looking through some Z forums and I found this guy on zcar.com claiming a 0-60 time of 5.8 seconds for his automatic. For me thats incredible, considering the best time for this car is 5.4, and thats on a manual!!! I usually expect most autos to be at least 1 second slower than a manual.
What do you guys think? If this is true then the Z has a pretty impressive auto.