Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

firstov · January 2004

Thanks for the finding, Matt ! I'll try to adjust the mirror in my LLBean.
The huge blind-spot makes me mad sometimes when turning right.

c_hunter · January 2004

Yeah, I noticed that and also got excited! Even on my previous Outback with the regular mirror, it felt like looking out an armored car sometimes, and that mirror definitely gets in the way. I was overjoyed when I found I could swing it up and out of the way.

So, tell your wife there are other idiots out there too.

Craig

dcm61 · January 2004

If you push the mirror up too high, the sunvisors will hit the mirror. Been there, done that. :-)

DaveM

blackbean · January 2004

Dave - thanks for pointing that out - I didn't think of that. I checked and it doesn't hit the driver's side at all (probably because I have the mirror ALL the way up) but the passenger side sun visor can only go to vertical (or half way) - that should be too much of a problem, as my wife is used to my having a "system" for everything and will roll her eyes when I tell there is yet another "car rule"! :-)

wpgilbe · January 2004

I have a 2.5 month-old 2004 Outback Wagon with 3200 miles on the odometer. Last week, with my family in the car, (and within a 5 minute period) the transmission suddenly failed and a fire ignited underneath the car. I did not see it, but luckily, a state trooper noticed it and pulled me over to alert me. The fire underneath smouldered for a couple of minutes before extinguishing on its own. The dealership now has the car and Subaru Corporate is starting to do the usual thing, dancing around to avoid saying that it is a product defect. No word yet on the cause of the flames. Has anyone had a similar situation with this car? There are no active recalls for it. Obviously, this could have been MUCH worse.

hypov · January 2004

Subaru Corporate is starting to do the usual thing, dancing around to avoid saying that it is a product defect.

Patrick-

A colleague of mine always have this saying, "Seeing is believing".
Until they get to inspect the vehicle physically, they can't agree or disagree with your contention or state that there is a defect.

Have you considered that you may have picked up road debris that is combustable?

-Dave

ateixeira · January 2004

The tranny failure may have been a result of the fire. Let's see what the dealer finds. At least they're looking at it.

Honda has had 7 cases of fires in CR-Vs, and they were letting the insurance companies pick up the tab, calling them a total loss. Lawsuits have forced an investigation.

Keep us updated, call 800-SUBARU3 to get a case open, and work with the dealer, sharing any other symptoms you might have noticed. My guess is Subaru will be a lot more responsive that Honda has been so far.

-juice

c_hunter · January 2004

Glad you're all OK.

Subaru should be working very hard to make things right. If they're not, then I would be very disappointed. I think it's important to get all the facts and make a good analysis, which will take a couple days I'm sure. In the meantime, I hope they're taking care of you.

This is certainly not a common problem with any Subaru so I will be very curious to learn what happened. I can see how a mechanical defect in the transmission would cause fire, but you'd probably "hear" it first. In other words, if there was a part rubbing or a some sort of friction issue, I suspect fire would be the last warning, preceded by the sounds of catastrophic mechanical failure (think spoon in the garbage disposal).

I think most car fires are engine related, or due to a blown tire carcass cooking itself to death on the rim (seen it happen due to siezed wheel bearings). Transmission fire is a new one for me, but is certainly conceivable.

Keep us posted.

Craig

gearhead4 · January 2004

approximately 6 weeks ago, I posted a note regarding a piston slap problem on my 2003 Legacy.

I took the wagon in to my local Subaru dealer who stated that SOA suggested replacing pistons #2 and #4.

The pistons were replaced last week, and I am pleased to report that there is no more unusual noise at cold start up (here in Chicago, we have experienced some very cold mornings).

Jim w

gearhead4 · January 2004

The only thing that makes sense to me is a ruptured transmission fluid cooling line spraying trans fluid against the hot catalytic converter.

What I don't understand is, how could the transmission fail and yet you would still be driving. Did the state trooper see you stalled on the side of the road?

Jim W.

c_hunter · January 2004

That's a good theory too. It would have to be an add-on cooler, since they are not standard equipment. If that was involved, it's definitely a suspect. Could have been leaking, which would eventually cause the transmission to malfunction.

Anybody know the combustion characteristics of auto transmission fluid? Will it flame up or just smoke?

Craig

ateixeira · January 2004

There isn't a tranny cooler, but auto Foresters at least do have engine oil coolers.

Any how, we're just taking stabs at it, the dealer should be able to tell what's wrong given it didn't burn completely.

-juice

fibber2 · January 2004

Most automatics have a small cooler buried in the radiator, with 1/4 to 5/16 steel and rubber lines running between them. But I have never looked on my OB to see it this standard practice is indeed used.

Steve

wpgilbe · January 2004

The car drove fine for 8 miles until this occurred. From the time that the trooper passed me and he says that he saw flames, I drove another 1/4 of a mile and the transmission seemed fine - I did not hear any mechanical failure. At that point, I turned. Coming out of the turn and accelerating, the engine revved high (like in neutral) and the transmission began to engage and disengage repeatedly. I then pulled to the side of the road simultaneous to the trooper arriving behind me. When I stopped, I noticed heavy smoke coming through the dash and air vents. The trooper told me that when we passed in the road, there were significant flames underneath my car. I have since requested more detail from him in a report, but I have not yet received it. The car had leaked transmission fluid, as evidenced by the splash of it all over the rear of the car.

I have a case # with Subaru America, and after much fighting with them, they have provided me with a rental car while they assess my car. The dealership has been a disappointment in their handling of this. Subaru is telling me now that there was no evidence of road debris or puncture and that it was possibly a seal failure and almost definitely a manufacturers issue. I will point out that this car sat in my driveway only 10 minutes earlier and there was no evidence of fluid leak on the driveway, which leads me to suspect catastrophic failure of a seal if that was indeed the case. Nevertheless, the car has never been serviced and is completely OEM.

subaru_team · January 2004

Hi. I think I'm aware of your case but I have a different name on the file. Please be assured that all of the appropriate folks are involved. I'm sure they will do their best to resolve this situation to your satisfaction.

Patti

squeezedlemon · January 2004

I am looking for advice as to whether it is advisable to use tire chains on my 96 Legacy Outback as an alternative to Nokian WR2 4 season tires or snow tires. I would rather get a set of all-season tires like Michelin Hydroedge and use chains occasionally. I expect to be living in Portland, OR and as I am not a skier and I expect to only occasional encounter extreme conditions in the foothills and mountains of the North West. My concern is that the car has 140 K and while the tranny has been working fine I don't want to push it over the edge. Any experience or opinions out there on this?

My reluctance to go with the Nokians stems from the fact that I have found that they have few if any dealers to service a warranty issue in the South and SW where I will be traveling in a month or so. Any experience with this manufacturer?

Regards,

Matt

subaru_team · January 2004

Insert appropriate corporate disclaimer here (not that we "recommend" these blah, blah)

We've heard good things about the following company and their Z-Chains. They claim to work well on the Outback and we haven't heard any complaints about them. The company is SCC Tire Chain Company. They can be found at SCC-Chain.com

That's if you want to go with chains vs. snows. I hope this helps!

Patti

squeezedlemon · January 2004

Does the '96 LOB meet S.A.E. Class "S" clearance requirements? If not what requirement does it meet? Thanks.

Matt

erics6 · January 2004

If you're going to be living in Portland, OR, I wouldn't bother with chains. We seldom get snow and when we do AWD is fine for getting around. I've never used my chains since owning a Subaru, and I go up to the mountains all the time. ODOT excempts AWD vehicles from chain requirements, if they have M&S all-season tires. They do require chains be carried. If chains are required, they usually shut down the road to all vehicles. If you're going to the mountains, just get a set of cheap cable type chains to carry around, and you'll be set. There is suppose to be a chance of some snow this weekend and for the first part of next week.

ateixeira · January 2004

I gotta say it, Subaru is handling this a LOT better than Honda did for Sabrina (check CR-V threads). I'm telling you, to this day they deny any responsibility and haven't even been willing to release any info to her at all.

Her insurance company ate the loss and she was out several thousand dollars to buy a new one.

Don't worry Patrick, we'll follow this case all the way through, I'm very curious to see how different Subaru treats its customers vs. Honda.

-juice

nygreg · January 2004

don't like Honda?

Greg

ateixeira · January 2004

Well, not necessarily, but my 1987 Honda XL250 motorcycle blew its engine on my 21st birthday. Bent valves and cracked carb, $1100 repair bill. And that was in 1989, just two years old. Honda left me in the cold.

They may be reliable, generally, but it's almost like they don't know how to handle the exceptions.

I've followed the CR-V threads since my wife test drove one. Sabrina posted recently and basically got flamed all over the place, people even questioned if she was being honest.

She was the first. Now there are 7 different reports of engine fires, and it's being taken seriously, finally.

Notice that this is the first occurence, and it's already being taken seriously. Loaner car, Subaru took responsibility (for the failed seal), fixing it, etc.

I'm not sure I have the heart to tell Sabrina how badly she got burned (pardon the pun).

-juice

froggy8 · January 2004

My wife pulled into our garage last night in her 2000 Outback with I think about 63K miles on it and said "listen to my car, it sounds like something is boiling". Sure enough. I pop the hood and the coolant in the reservoir was boiling (and was low. The "Check engine" light is on. I filled up the reservoir and the water got sucked into the radiator pretty quickly. We have not noticed oil or coolant leakage recently, but we did notice the smell of burning coolant (did not recognize it as that until now) There are no obvious leaks from hoses. I understand that there have been many problems with head gaskets in these vehicles. My father-in-law thinks that's what the problem is. I am dissapointed as the car has only 63K on it and the powertrain warranty apparently is only up to 60K!

dcm61 · January 2004

Call 1-800-SUBARU3 and start a case. Ask them to have Patti review the case.

DaveM

ateixeira · January 2004

It's covered, they just announced they'll cover them for up to 8 years/100k miles as long as you agree to use an additive.

Do start a case, you may be one of the first to get the new coolant.

-juice

nygreg · January 2004

keep us updated as most failures have been more subtle than yours.

Greg

wpgilbe · January 2004

An update...On Wednesday, I was told by the Supervisor at Subaru America that their people would not touch my car until my adjuster viewed it. Fair enough. My adjuster called me one hour later and told me that he had viewed it. By Thursday afternoon, I had not heard from Subaru, so I called. At that point, they had not even been told by the dealership that the car had been viewed by the adjuster. The Subaru rep expressed frustration with the dealership for failing to notify her, promised to follow up, and get me a report on their findings by Thursday afternoon or Friday morning. By 3:00 Friday afternoon, and after hearing nothing back, I again called the rep. She was unavailable, so I advised the customer service person who answered the phone that I was leaving my office soon and that the Subaru-provided rental car is due back today (if it is not renewed, I lose my deposit)and I requested a call back from someone (anyone) giving me a status report and an extension on the car rental period. I was told that either the Supervisor OR the Team Leader would call me back within a few minutes. That was one hour ago and I have heard nothing. Further, the rental car company just called me and advised that since they have not gotten an extension on the rental from Subaru, they have no choice but to charge my credit card for the deposit.

I am astonished at the apparent lack of urgency in letting me know why my 2.5 month old car caught fire and when this issue will be resolved. If it takes a month to replace my car, I don't care. All I want is someone at the dealership or at Subaru America to even act like this is a big deal to them. It is certainly a big deal to me. I bet that if any of these folks had to scramble to remove their 3 year-old and 2 year-old children from a smoking car like I did, it might get a bit more attention. Unbelievable.

I had hoped that the shoddy customer service was limited to the dealer (in Cumming, GA, by the way). Now, I'm not so sure.

wpgilbe · January 2004

Can anyone please give me a contact at corporate to whom I can take these issues??? I am tired of dealing with "Supervisors" and "Team Leaders" at 1-800-Subaru3 who will not take or return my phone calls. I am completely fed up with this company.

c_hunter · January 2004

I'm very disappointed to hear this, I know I would be extremely upset if it happened to me. I expected Subaru to be more responsive.

A couple years ago, a friend's Mac PowerBook overheated and started smoking. He called Apple and they escalated it right up the line. They sent out a courier to retrieve his damaged PowerBook (for examination by engineering) and gave him a brand new one the same day. They were totally on top of the situation. If anything, he was more impressed than ever. Whether it was out of concern for danger or fear of legal issues, at least Apple was on the ball.

Your case is far more severe than a smoking laptop, and it boggles my mind why Subaru is dropping the ball here. If I were you, I probably would be talking to a lawyer and would not buy another Subaru. As you mention, it's understandeable if it takes a while to resolve the issue, but they should be keeping you updated on progress. I'm sorry to hear they are dropping the ball.

Craig

lfdal · January 2004

I would have expected Subaru to treat you much, much, better than they have. Subaru's have their faults, as do all cars, but the biggest item in their favor is the support network that seems to have gone totally out to lunch in your case.

Hopefully they'll get their act together on Monday and make arrangements to reimburse you for your rental expenses. Not to mention straightening out your Outback

Best of luck to you.

Larry

grahampeters · January 2004

G'day

Things don't sound too good, seen from Patrick's perspective. However, we do not know the other sides (and there may be multiple ones) to this story. How about backing off and letting the investigation occur speedily and with balance.

As a Loss Adjuster, I know only too well, that fires, even where the initial interpretation seems obvious, frequently arise from non-obvious causes. For example (and I suspect this is not relevant here) a lot of vehicle fires here in Australia come from dry grass, cardboard or packaging debris caught around exhaust heat shields.

Whilst the delay in responding is irritating, how about thinking of the perspective from Subaru's staff who are probably trying to gather information from their dealer, possibly the adjuster and other sources. In general, it is reasonable to expect a phone response in 24-48 working hours from a call. If you expect more urgent response, I can guarantee that you will only be delayed ultimately.

Patrick has acted very sensibly in reminding Subaru that he may lose his deposit if there is a delay in renewing the loan car contract. It would be churlish of Subaru to rely upon any breach in this subsequently. There is not much more he can do for the present except aggravate matters.

In short, cool it.

Cheers

Graham

subaru_team · January 2004

While I do not share our information on this site, as Graham stated, there is often more to the story. I'm not saying that "Patrick" is wrong, just that I have been looking at the case and we are doing everything that we can. While we may not be meeting expectations from the customer's point of view, there are some other factors that can contribute to perceived delays. He will be well taken care of. I can commit to that.

Patti

subarusaleshou · January 2004

Not to minimize or take anything away from a serious situation but it just kills me when practically the first words from someone is to hire lawyers. What has happened to us and where are we headed when what should be the last resort becomes the first thought?

I truly hope this works out quickly and satisfactorily but don't turn it into litigation before the dust can even settle. Let it be worked on and hope for a satisfactory outcome first.

c_hunter · January 2004

I agree with Graham and Patti, but also recognize the need for Subaru to keep in touch with Patrick, even if it's only to say "we're still working on it". Some of my best customer service experiences have come in cases where the provider keeps me updated and in the loop. Even if it's bad news, it always feels good when they are on the ball. It really impresses me, and I think it's a good way to do business. On the flip side, I've become extremely annoyed when the ball gets dropped.

My eyes were really opened when building our house a couple years ago. As many of you know, you run into a wide range of customer service levels when building a house. There were cases where we were in constant communication with contractors who were clearly out to take care of us, and other cases where it was like pulling teeth to get any response out of people, whether it was a yes or no. Some contractors are really out to earn your business, while other seem like the could care less (they either have plenty of other business or are lazy). I grew to really enjoy working with the good guys (to the point where we paid them extra for doing such a great job). The bad guys won't get my recommendation, even if they eventually got the job done.

At NASA, we went through "total quality management (TQM)" training many years ago. It was mostly baloney, but we did learn the value of recognizing the customer, putting ourselves in their shoes, and trying to serve them the right way (the way we'd want to be served). It might seem odd for NASA to think of customers, but really, the customer is just the "other guy", whether it's an engineer down the hall working on a design for you or an industry colleague who needs your data or results.

The good news here is that we all trust and respect Patti, and her word goes a long way. If she says the situation will be well taken care of, we can believe it. Patti has taken good care of many of us and our families, so Patrick, try to keep your sanity while it gets worked out. I know Patti will make sure Subaru does the right thing.

Craig

subaru_team · January 2004

on this one and I appreciate your confidence in us. It's funny in a way - we've had other situations posted here where the "right thing" was done, and that frequently doesn't get posted. The majority of folks here post their feelings on outcomes, but I can honestly say that there have only been 3 cases (to the best of my memory) in a number of years here where the customer's were not satisfied with the outcome. In each of these cases, there was so much more that happened that wasn't shared. You rarely see someone post that they were in some way responsible for the problem.

Anyway, Craig - I appreciate your understanding and support. I won't let any of you down.

Patti

ateixeira · January 2004

Patrick: take a deep breath and just document everything, keep receipts, etc. I'm sure they will take care of you once they figure it all out. My guess is they haven't yet, but they will.

To be honest they could be better in communicating with you, my guess it they hadn't concluded anything yet so there wasn't much to tell you.

Please do stick around and let us know the outcome, good or bad. I think Patti's correct here, we hear the complaints but when something gets resolved the owner is happy and just disappears.

Like I said, I'm following this case with interest.

-juice

ladywclass · January 2004

for my opinion

srb48 · January 2004

I took my '97 in yesterday for its 60k mile service. I'd been experiencing a rubbing noise when I made either a right- or left-hand turn, and I asked them to check this out too. They found that BOTH rear wheel bearings were going bad. The total for the visit was just under $1000. I've never had to replace wheel bearings on a modern era (from 1972) car, and I usually keep cars for 8 to 10 years. The service manager said that he'd seen the problem before, but wouldn't comment further. I sent SOA an email, but I don't expect much help. Has anyone had a similar problem, or can anyone shed some light on this?

Steve

subaru_team · January 2004

we can do. It's really unusual to hear about a failure like this in a Legacy. I'm assuming you don't have Added Security, so I don't know if we'll be able to help 100%, but we'll try to do something. I hope you provided your dealer name!

Thanks!

Patti

c_hunter · January 2004

I don't know hard it is to replace Subaru bearings, but $1000 seems way too expensive to me. I've done bearings on other cars, and it was under $100 in parts and 2 hours of labor tops (and I'm an engineer, so it takes me longer to do things!).

Craig

mjansen1 · January 2004

Anyone have a recommendation for tires? 75K on the Firestones (16" 225 R70)and time for them to go. Plan on going to Les Schwab. Thanks.

stever · January 2004

Around here it seems like Les just has house brands and Toyo. I got Toyo's for my minivan but it's too early to rave or rant.

Steve, Host

srb48 · January 2004

Craig, sorry I wasn't clearer. The cost for the 60k service and the bearings was $894. The bearing replacement for both wheels was $600 of the total. That still seems high, but it's been 35 or so years since I've done it. I was looking at the new GT with the H6 engine option when I comes out in May, but now I'm not so sure.

Patti, thanks for any assistance you can provide. You're correct; I don't have Added Security. I don't think that was around in '97, just the garden variety extended warranty, and every Subaru owner I talked to, and there were many, talked me out of that. The dealer's name is Neil Huffman Subaru, and I've really been happy with their service. I'm more unhappy with the car than the dealer. If you need any more information from me, please let me know.

Thanks,
Steve

dcm61 · January 2004

$600 for both rear bearings sounds about right. I had the left rear bearing replaced in my '96 OBW at around 75k miles and it was about $350 / $375 with a 4 wheel alignment.

DaveM

srb48 · January 2004

Thanks, Dave. Maybe its just normal wear and tear on an AWD vehicle. Though I'm surprised that Subaru doesn't have some kind of wheel bearing check on their maintenance schedule. Patti seemed to think that 60K was kind of low for this kind of failure, so I'll wait and see what SOA says. At least I know that the price isn't out of range.

Thanks,
Steve

c_hunter · January 2004

I've only done it on cars with 90-120K miles.

Craig

blackbean · January 2004

Hello All,
I just installed the rear differential protector on my Bean. It was a really easy install (less than 30 minutes). My only question, should I have put some thread-lock or something on the bolts? The front nuts (supplied with the part) just barely cover the threads and there is no lock washer or anything. I torqued to 55 ft/lbs as specified, but wonder if they might loosen up over time???
Thanks for any advice.
Matt

emmanuelchoke · January 2004

If the fasteners aren't self locking, thread lock sounds like a good idea. If not, drive the vehicle and check the torque, see if it's staying tight.
Thanks for the mirror tip, used it on the Legacy.

c_hunter · January 2004

How many threads engaged? If it's at least 4 turns, I wouldn't worry. Chances are, the mounting holes are shallow anyway. But if it makes you feel better, Locktite can't hurt, just make sure you get the kind that's not permanent in case you ever need to get the bolts off!

I would have expected the bolts to have some thread lock on them already, it would have looked like blue, yellow, or gream paint dabbed on the tip of the bolt.

Craig

ateixeira · January 2004

Steve: it is rare on a Legacy, in fact they fix Foresters and Impreza wheel bearing by using Legacy parts!

But unheard of, no. We had a 626 before our Legacy, and a front wheel bearing went, to the tune of $900, for a single bearing. So both for $600 seems downright cheap to me.

Matt: I installed the same thing on my Forester, 4 years later it's still tight. I just torqued them to spec, exactly as you did.

-juice

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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