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Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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Comments

  • brendoy11brendoy11 Member Posts: 2
    Wes!!! I followed your advice and while your soultion to my battery problem wasn't the problem after all it did make me take a closer look at the negative cable on the battery which was also badly corroded. I replaced the cable transmitter and the engine turned right over. Thanks for your insight and helping me save major money since I didn't need to take the car into a mechanic. :shades:
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Steve,

    Where are you? We keep getting these wussy storms down here in the Poughkeepsie area. Lot of ice (like again last night), but not much snow.

    Steve
  • blackbeanblackbean Member Posts: 100
    Hi Steve,
    How many miles since the change over?
    Do you re-check torque right after someone else services the car?
    Thanks,
    Matt
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    Steve - (the bogey, not the fibber :P )

    Well, considering that we have less than 12" on the ground in Fairbanks (and that is total accumulation over 4+ months!), it would not be this part of Alaska. ;)

    Impressive accumulations in New York though. Quite impressive.

    Unless we get some decent and frequent rain this spring and summer, it is going to be a dry summer here. Really the last thing we need, considering all of the pest-stress placed on the forests during the last 4-5 years. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I am glad the suggestion was helpful, even if in an off-handed way!

    I have to wonder how the battery terminals could suffer such excessive corrosion over so little a time. I still have the original cables on my '69 pickup, and they look (and operate) all but perfect 38 years later....
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Matt,

    I think it is around 6k miles since the upgrade. I only run around 8.5k a year on this car, as it is my commuter.

    I'm rather fanatical about torque values. Any time any of my vehicles goes to a shop, they get checked as soon as it gets home. Typically they are way overdone by most places that insist on air tool reinstallation, but I believe that the problems go beyond simple overtorqe. Questionable materials, undersized for the application, etc.

    Steve
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Steve,

    I'm just North of Syracuse. twenty minutes from Parish and a half hour from Oswego (under normal circumstances)days away of late.

    Steve
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Wes,

    It's been a mess here ever since Al Gore invented global warming. Wish he had quit after he invented the internet!

    Steve
  • denver5357denver5357 Member Posts: 319
    Wondering if all you experts can help me figure out something. I write for a living, but I am puzzled.

    In regard to the seat warmers, the '07 manual says to "be sure to turn them off" when exiting the car. Then it says that leaving them on while the engine is not running can result in drawing down the battery.

    In comparison, in the section about the headlights, it notes how the headlights automatically turn off when the key is in "lock" position or is removed, so the battery is not drawn down.

    Now, as far as I can tell by observation, if I leave a seat warmer on and remove my key to exit the car, it turns off, just like the headlights do.

    So, my question is: If the car is not running and you remove the key AND you leave a seat warmer on, does it draw down any power from the battery? Technically the wording in the manual leaves open the possibility of turning the car's electrical system on but not the engine and turning on the seat warmers, but if that is what it means why doesn't it say so (and what numbskull would do that, anyway?)? And if the seat warmers DO turn off automatically when the car is off and the key is removed (like the headlights), why isn't the language the same in the manual?

    I ask all this because we have had our Outback iwagon for a month and it always starts slower in the cold (slower than my 93 Corolla, even). I was so concerned I changed what tested to be a perfectly good battery and put in one with 30% more CCAs, etc. Yesterday my wife took the Outback skiing and when she returned to it 8 hours later it barely started. She had to hit the gas the second try for it to catch. One seat warmer had been left on.

    So is this an electrical issue? A fuel system issue? A seat warmer issue? A Subaru quirk? We're confused and appreciate any insight. Thanks.
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    I can only comment on my particular vehicle. I own an 06 Outback 3.0 and it has seat warmers. Rarely do I ever turn them off before shutting the car off. Mine have been left in the "on" position with the car off for days on end and I have never had an issue.
  • denver5357denver5357 Member Posts: 319
    Thanks. I just talked to the dealer and here is what i was told. Has anyone else heard this?

    1) slower starts is typical of Subarus, 2) they are aware of a problem Subaru's have at high altitudes starting (we live in Colorado), and hope that Subaru of America will issue a fix but so far they have not, 3) if it happens again, try starting the car with the gas halfway down, and if that doesn't work, all the way down (just don't pump). The dealer said they think it has to do with programming in the car's computer chip.
  • snowbeltersnowbelter Member Posts: 288
    Re: Slower starts at high altitude: My 07 requires longer cranking to start that did my 02 Outback, and my altitude is only 800 feet.
  • denver5357denver5357 Member Posts: 319
    Hmm. We live at 8300 feet and the ski resort was 9300 feet, for purposes of detail to anyone following this. There might be an equation, where:

    Degree of cold + altitude = difficulty starting

    The colder it is and the higher the altitude the harder it is to start even a brand new Outback with a new battery. Seems like this should be fixable by SOA.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Your ignition key has several positions. Off allows you to remove the key. In this setting, very few circuits get any power. Subaru is different than most in that even the headlight ckt does not get power in the off position.

    The next click is 'accessory'. Depending on the model, some ckts now get power. Again, Subaru is more conservative than most here as well. You don't get much more than the radio.

    The next click is 'on'. Here you get power to everything, whether the engine is actually running or not. If the engine is off, you get a dash full of warning lights. If you left the heaters on with the key in this position, you could definitely run down the battery.

    For a test, try switching on the seat heaters with the key out. See if they get warm. I highly doubt that they are powered.

    On the subject of batteries, most mfgrs supply the lightest, cheapest, lowest output unit that they can get away with. I recently had an '05 Honda Element loaner that would barely crank below about 15' F. Most replacement batteries above about $60 supply 50% more CCA's than the OEM units. If you actually shopped by specs., you would find that many lawn and garden tractor batteries are close to an exact replacement!

    Steve
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    In a cold start and early minutes of cold running, the ignition/fuel system runs 'open loop'. No exhaust content feedback - purely off of a set of look-up tables. Inputs are temperture sensors, barametric pressure, and the like. It sounds like something is not right in the stored values, and the ECM will eventually require an update from the dealer once SOA figures it out.

    Steve
  • denver5357denver5357 Member Posts: 319
    Thanks Steve. That answer meshes exactly with what the dealer said. Now the question I need to pursue is, how close is SOA to a fix? This isn't a new model so you would think this would have been resolved long ago. That doesn't bode well.
  • denver5357denver5357 Member Posts: 319
    As a final update for now ... I called SOA. They assigned me a case number and wanted to know who my dealer was so they could discuss it. There is no fix, however, and to change the engine programming SOA says they would have to "get EPA approval." So this is starting to smell like one of those "They know there is a problem but it is too big a hassle to fix" deals.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    Regarding the seat heaters - they do turn off like everything else. But, these are electrical heaters, so there is a risk (albeit small) of fire as a result. I think the "turn off the heaters if you are not actively using them" bit is simply a way of absolving the company of liability in the event of a fire. This may sound absurd, but the heaters in my '96 Outback wagon actually burned my rear one -40F day and burned a small "cigarette hole" in the seat. After that, I stopped using the seat heater on the driver seat. But, had I not been in the car when it happened, who knows? Maybe it would have caught the car on fire. Are the newer systems "smart" systems like the passenger airbags such that they will not engage unless X pounds are on the seat?

    Just speculation, of course. Maybe they really ARE worried about battery drain. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • wilkich84wilkich84 Member Posts: 34
    Thanks for the responses. I forgot to mention that the car also has that testy front and rear engine seal problem and needs that costly 90k Mile/timing belt service. I know I should have done the service some time ago but we really never planned on driving the car much for about a year (commuting in another car and summer out of state assignments).

    Thanks for the Salvation Army idea. I will follow up on it. The tax deduction now has supposedly changed so I don't know if I claims as much as folks used to. But it may be better than nothing.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    While the '07 looks like a carryover, the certification might be different. This is just speculation on my part, but some mfgrs did jump thru hoops this last year with their engines. The industry initiated new net horsepower testing using a new procedure. It resulted in some deflation in ratings on some powertrains. It made sense that some makers attempted to offset the loss by doing some recalibration to restore 'lost HP', and that then required recertification by the EPA.

    So yes, at high altitude you could be experiencing an unintended outcome of some fine tweeking required to make the cold emissions numbers while maximizing horsepower. Fixing that now requires nothing short of an act of Congress! Again, this is just my guess as to why you might be told there is a new high altitude issue that cannot be addressed without EPA blessing.

    Steve
  • goosegoggoosegog Member Posts: 206
    I'm a bit behind and sorry if someone else has answered this already. Re the clutch: 2000-2002ish OBs had a poor clutch. It suffered from juddering (especially when cold) and early burnout, as well as making a poisonous stink if you slipped it much. Mine lasted only 50,000 km before it wore out. I was quite ticked off and wrote a letter to SoC but they just said it was normal. (My Mazda 323 lasted 225,000 km with two kids learning to drive on it, and I've been driving manuals since 1965 only ever wearing out one other clutch.) Quite a few folks got them done under warranty, but mine wasn't bad enough to bother me much. The newer clutch has been redesigned in some way and doesn't judder. But I bet it wears out again just as quick.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    But I bet it wears out again just as quick.

    You are likely correct with that assertion. I have, on occasion, burned the clutch on my '69 Chevy trying to nurse it up a slick driveway, or trying to pull 12,000# up that same driveway. But, my '07 Outback's clutch burns on even a slightly delayed release of the pedal. Time will tell (if I keep it), but I have always been rather gentle on wear items so anything short of 100K miles will indicate to me that the construction is just not up to snuff.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is this a MT or AT?

    I may be in the market for a 97-99 Legacy or OB as a project car to drop an STi motor in....

    -mike
  • hermonlandhermonland Member Posts: 9
    98 Outback. My exhaust system is on the outs. On quick inspection last night, it appears that one part of the pipe is disconnected, but held on by the heat shield. i think there is also one other potential hole. i could see exhaust coming from two places in the pipe. Don't know if anyone has had luck fixing problems like this without replacing the whole system.

    Does anyone know a rough estimate of the cost to fix the entire exhaust system? i was quoted almost $900 over the summer (i live in Boston). I have no bearings here.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I suppose it depends on your definition of "entire." If you mean from the headers back, then yes, $900 sounds reasonable for a complete replacement. If you are talking about replacing everything after the catalytic converter, then it seems a little steep, but I am not sure how much labor is involved.

    I am somewhat surprised it is in such poor shape, but I guess those salted NE roads are just taking their toll. After 220K and 11 years on my '96 it still looked/worked perfectly fine, other than a potential cat. conv. issue.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • hermonlandhermonland Member Posts: 9
    Thanks for the information. i had it looked at by a mechanic last summer (2006) and he said i needed to replace the whole system, mentioned $900 as an estimate, so I ran the other way. My brother clamped a loose shield and it has been fine until now. One piece of the pipe separated and is very loud, so i am hoping to find someone to fix that piece, as i do not have the space or tools to do it myself.

    So you think to replace the catalytic converter and pipes should be less? i hope so. one of my friends recommend someone, so i am having it checked out for free, before i commit. thanks.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    The headers and cats are the most expensive parts, not to mention taking the most time to replace. The muffler and tailpipe are cheap parts and quick to replace, so if the problems are occurring down-pipe of the cat, then just have the system cut there and weld on the new parts. I would expect that to be a sub-$500 job - I am not sure how "sub" of $500 as I have not replaced a Subaru exhaust system, but I replaced the system on my old van many years ago and it was something like $150 for the pipe and muffler - I installed it myself. On my pickup, I went the cut-and-weld route from a shop. With muffler, it was about $350. I would have to look at the receipt for the exact amount, but I had tires replaced and some other odd jobs done at the same time. The total bill was just over $1000 (Tires sucked up >$500 of the total!).

    If you put stainless steel parts on there, that will bump the cost up but I am not sure how much - the flip side is that the system will last much longer than plain steel.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • hermonlandhermonland Member Posts: 9
    Thank you for the information, that helps me a lot. I don't do work myself, so knowing what to look is key. I will talk to mechanic to ask him to spare the headers/cat conv. and see if i can replace the pipes.

    thanks again for the information.
  • fordwrenchfordwrench Member Posts: 70
    Well I just got through with a fight with my selling dealer over the clutch judder. Subaru will pick up the flywheel and the labor, I get to buy the disc, plate and bearing. My cost will be $250. I don't like the outcome but I guess it's better than nothing. I just hope something is different with the new parts. I have never burned out or damaged a clutch in 30 years of driving.
  • jillybjillyb Member Posts: 1
    You know the sound that goes off when you open the door and the keys are still in the ignition? I will hear that sound go off randomly when I am driving my '97 Legacy. Door is not open and I have not been able to pin it down to a specific time or cause. Anyone have any ideas?
  • tschofentschofen Member Posts: 2
    I've got the same problem it seems.
    About a year ago, the transmission started to act up. When putting it into Drive, it started to hesitate before engaging. With a quick step on the gas it kicked in. It got so bad, that it didn't even want to engage at all at times for 10 minutes but eventually kicked in.

    A transmission shop looked at it, but at that time it would not happen (They kept it for a day) So we flushed the system and things worked fine. It's back again, but this time intermittently it just doesn't engage for a time. Putting it in rear works all the time.

    I called a transmission shop again and they tell me that in the last year they see this all the time on these Subarus to the tune of 2-3 a month. The say that some transmission seal is wearing off due to some bad design and it they need to take a part the the transmission to fix it ($1200 - $1600).

    The cars' been great up to this point. I noticed some other discussions around similar issues. Anybody have the same problem or has gone through this as well? Is there another approach?

    Thanks...martin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not ideal, but at least you have a brand new clutch now.

    I replaced a clutch on a Chevy Sprint (about $400) and sold a Datsun 210 that had a clutch that was about to fail. Sure enough, I saw the buyer later and he'd replaced the clutch.

    -juice
  • kayzack314kayzack314 Member Posts: 2
    Hi, i have the same problem with my ob. I have the 2000 limited sedan. Does yours backfire a ton when you get heavy on the gas? Did you find out what the burning smell was? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks-Jay Conway kayzack314@epix.net
  • kayzack314kayzack314 Member Posts: 2
    i have a 2000 subaru limted outback w/ 2.5. I hate this car. I just got it and i have tons of problems.
    First- Is the burning smell from a at clutch pack?(car is an auto)It comes thur the vents, i have no leaks that i can see
    Second-Trans is slow to go into drive occasionally. Any solvent solution?
    Third- Biggest problem is when you get heavy on the accelerator, it backfires horribly but not always. Plugs?wires?coil Pack?
    Please help kayzack314@epix.net
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I hate this car.

    Mmmm.... yes. Freshly acquired used cars can often leave that taste in one's mouth. Did you pay a discount price for this car? These problems were likely noted by the previous owner and prompted that person to replace it.

    1. The burning smell may likely be due to gear oil, etc., dripping on hot exhaust components. Could either be that the oil was recently replaced and the smell is residual, or there is a leak that needs attention.

    2. Slow to engage transmission is a hot topic lately - possibly early seal failure? According to other owners it is destined to get worse.

    3. Backfiring. Eech! Sounds like it is running quite rich. So, moving beyond the plugs, wires, and coil, sensors to inspect or replace include the knock, camshaft, crankshaft, oxygen, and airflow sensors. They could be functioning in such a way to not trip a code, but yet cause it to run rich.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • paddy64paddy64 Member Posts: 3
    I have a 99 Outback wagon - high beams work, low beams don't. Both bulbs are illuminated in high beam mode, but when high beams are switched off, no lights.

    Anyone have any suggestions? Many thanks!
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    First rotation notch on the column switch is the parking lights. They work? How about the second notch. Should add the headlamp low beams. Does everything (dash lights included) still work, but not the headlamps? Or is everything dead? Need more details....

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    On my Forester the bulbs have 2 filaments, and that happened to mine. The low bulbs burned out first, so all I had to do was replace the bulbs. Cheap and easy fix.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Have the ATF level checked, possibly even flushed.

    I'm sure the smell is an oil spill. It will eventually burn off, but you could try to clean the area with some Simple Green. Avoid getting any wiring wet, of course, though I don't think there are many near the trans.

    Used cars are a gamble. I got really lucky with my Miata, but prior to that all the used cars I bought had one problem or another.

    -juice
  • babe915babe915 Member Posts: 34
    the owners manual states that the plugs on my 05 2.5i non
    turbo engine should be changed at 30 K and they are not
    platnum. the dealer said change is not needed because they ARE
    platnum plugs and can go to 60K who do i believe, any of you that changed your own plugs maybe can help me with
    this.
  • zeljko52zeljko52 Member Posts: 1
    I have Outback Lmtd 2.5, 130k. Five days ago I noticed backfiring when I was going uphill, when gear was changed, and RPM dropped to about 2000, and when I tried to accelerate. The same repeated at Idle.
    Check engine light is on for some time, and it goes off when fuel qty drops to less than 1/4. When I fill the tank, it comes on. Also, it goes off when the engine is cold.
    With backfiring it started (sometimes) to flash.
    The car is now in garage for 130K check. Timing belt, ignition plugs and cables were replaced, but the problem continued. It looks, people at garage has no idea what's causing the problem.
    Any friendly advice, or literature where I can find more information.

    Thank you.
  • paddy64paddy64 Member Posts: 3
    Yes, parking lights work and dash lights work. High beams work. I imagined it was the low beam lamps, but as I said, both bulbs seem to be illuminated. I am only semi-familiar with the car as it is my wife's.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think its odd that they would use non-platinum plugs as this would seem to interfere with the emissions warranty requirements in the US.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I am almost positive the '99 used the same general headlight assemblies as 95, 96, 97, and 98. As such, the low beam filaments should NOT be on along with the high beams. On my '96, I could "force" them both to be on if I moved and held the high-beam toggle switch about half way between the engaged and disengaged position - this made the lights quite bright, but not recommendable since the extra heat is likely to greatly shorten the life span of the filaments.

    While it is unusual that BOTH low beams would go out in quick succession (did you or your wife notice one out before the other?), I still think I would purchase a replacement set of bulbs and try them before I looked toward a wiring problem.

    Does anyone know if a separate fuse controls marker lamps, high beams, and low beams? Perhaps it is a fuse if there are separate fuses.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    That would be news to me as well. Platinum plugs were specified for this engine even back in '96. The replacement interval was also specified at 30,000 miles. The 07 owner's manual specifies NGK plugs FR5AP-11, which are platinum tipped, at 30,000 mile intervals.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    What year? Odd combo of details & events. Lets see if we can sort thru it.

    First off, continuing to drive with a flashing CEL is potentially very bad for the engine. That indicates a misfire, which could do significant damage. You need to have someone with an OBD2 scan tool read the stored code and, ideally, the snapshot data. Does the CEL suddenly come on when the backfire occured, or upon the first restart after you fill the tank?

    For some problems, the dash light will stay on for up to 40 'drive' cycles, for others just 3. Then after the 4th drive cycle of no re-occurance, the light goes out but the stored data remains. Odd, thought, because I would have thought that a misfire would have locked the CEL on for the full 40 cycles, but maybe not if it is a short enough event.

    Backfire and lights only happens when the tank is full or shortly thereafter? Whatever is wrong happens intermittantly while the tank is pretty full, but does not happen when the fuel level drops. So at low tank levels the backfiring does not occur, no flashing or steady on CEL?? Vapor recovery system problem, purge control, venting issue, perhaps. Try filling the tank only about 3/4 full and see what happens.

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'd just wait til 60k to change them, platinum or not.

    -mike
  • babe915babe915 Member Posts: 34
    thanks guys, car runs good i am going to leave well enough
    alone and wait till 60K for the plugs
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I confess that I did not change the plugs at 30K intervals, though I think I did put three sets in there between 83K when I purchased it up to the end. Twice I replaced them simply because I had the engine out of the car (145K and 193K). First replacement (for me) was at about 110K. Judging by the abuse it took during its prior ownerships... that might have been the first time they were replaced! :mad:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Fibber Steve,

    How do you KNOW all this stuff? I just anoint the hood and call for divine intervention. I'm thinking your way is much more effective though!

    Pastor Steve
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