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Well, the facts are out. The reliability projection for the Sienna is about 30% above average, while Odyssey is about 10% below average. This info is on p.31 of the April, 2001 issue of Consumer Reports.
This doesn't tell the whole story, however. In responses to e-mails, CR has replied to me (and another poster on this forum) that the power doors account for many of the problems. This seems to be validated by the fact that the problem areas on the Odyssey (p.82) for '99 and '00 are "Hardware" and "Electrical". Though Sienna does better, it is interesting to observe that these are its worst two categories also. For some, it may also be worthwhile to note that Odyssey gets top rating in categories like "Engine, "Cooling," "Ignition," "Transmission," "Suspension," "Exhaust," "Body Rust," and "Paint/Trim."
Second, the '99 Odyssey is rated below average, while for '00 it climbed to average. It is possible that the numerous recalls in '99 account for some of the negative reader responses, or that Honda has made improvements.
Finally, one can also consider what "Average" reliability is for Consumer Reports. For 2000 MY vehicles, the average is 20 problems per 100 vehicles. That's 0.2 problems per vehicle, which isn't all that much worse than 0 problems per vehicle. At this level, variations between cars are not as significant as compared to U.S Makes for 1980, where the rate was over 1 problem per vehicle on average.
In summary, if Reliability is by far your biggest concern, the Sienna is probably the better choice. On the other hand, if you look at the details in the Consumer Reports data, you'd probably find the absolute number of problems per vehicle is still very low, and the trends show it is likely to be even lower for 2001 model year vehicles, and maybe lower yet for the LX model without the power sliding doors. It is also noted that the '95-'98 Odysseys (which lack power sliding doors) all rate above average in reliability.
Personally, I wouldn't fret the difference (and I didn't). Both Odyssey and Sienna are safe vehicles with low problem rates. Instead, take a test drive, and decide based on comfort, ride, cargo room, flexibility, etc. It should also be noted that CR rates Odyssey better overall than Sienna, and also rates Odyssey safer in its new Safety Assessment. Here again, the differences are slight, and probably not worth exaggerating.
good luck!
What difference does it make if your car is rated less reliable by Consumer Reports, CR. CR use to list the differences in reliability between one rating and another in dollars per year of repair cost so you could see the difference. That difference use to be about $100/yr between one rating and another, but the difference should be less now, as cars have become more reliable. My calculations below indicate that $100 is still about right.
Consider that you can buy a 7yr/100/0 warranty on the Odyssey for $900. Since they make money on the warranty the repair costs must be less then 900/4 = $225/yr. The first 3 years are covered by your new car warranty. You can figure the dealer and the Honda company together must both make a profit on that $900 and you can consider that to be the interest they collect on your $900.
The 2000 Odyssey is rated as average reliability by CR. Average as listed by CR as an average of 7% "Trouble Spots", better the average is an average of 3.5% "Trouble Spots", and much better then average is 2% or less so figure 2-1%= 1.5% on average.
So the maintence cost for an above average car is $225 x3.5/7=$113/yr and for a much better then average car is 225x1.5/7= $48/yr.
So therefore the 2000 Odyssey is costing 225-113 = $112 more in maintence cost per year then an above average reliability car and 225-48 = $177 more then a much better then average reliability car per year. Looking at the ratings on cars in the 2001 April issue of CR I see that very few cars have a much better then reliability rating
In fact for mini vans the only vans rated at above average reliability are the 2000 Mazda MPV at much better then, and 2000 Toyota Sienna at better then.
So you can figure that a 2000 Mazda MPV mini van will cost you about $177 a year less then an 2000 Odyssey mini van and a 2000 Toyota Sienna will cost you about $112 less in repair costs per year. Now you have to decide on the other qualities of the cars also to make the comparison complete.
To drive a car 12,000 miles a year probably costs you, I would guess, about 35 cents per mile and probably more then that, or about $4,200/yr. I know it use to cost that a number of years ago, but I don't have the latest figures. So you have to decide how much of a difference that $112 to $177 per year will make to you compared to the total cost of the car per year.
"this is all a shell game..." okay where is the extra space taken from if it is all a shell game.
Where is the extra 11.5 cu ft of rear storage over the 26.6 cu ft of the Sienna get "maximized at the expense of others." Where does the extra leg room get taken from, or the head room?
You are usually a voice of reason. Are you losing your edge? The Sienna is a fine vehicle but, it isn't the right choice for everybody. If it was the right choice for you why are you all of the sudden attacking the Odyssey and not supporting people making the best choice for their needs?
BTW the Sienna handled better in my opinion but at my 6'4" and carrying needs it does not fit the bill for me.
Some owners of every brand are pleased, others are miserable. I have 2 good friends w/ Montanas - one hates theirs, one has had zero problems. Unfortunately, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Like lottery tickets, on average everyone gets a few pennies ($1 mil jackpot divided over several million players) but in reality one or a few clean up while every one else gets zero. For cars - a few get problem vehicles while everyone else does OK. Question is what %-age of buyers get those problem cars.
I realize you gave a high limit on the numbers, but I suspect they are at least a factor of two high. Remember, the dealer is still making some profit at this level, and I bet the company is making a lot of profit. Intellichoice also does a 5 year maintnenance cost projection based on extended warranty costs. For the Odyssey LX and EX, repair costs are projected to $571 for 5 years, or $114/year. Maintenance costs were $675 over 5 years. For Sienna models, repairs were $631 (or $126/year). Maintenance was $1,461 over 5 years. These numbers are from the 2001 Intellichoice book, available through cars.com.
Though I still think the repair costs are high, consider some additional info on maintenance costs. I reference Jack Gillis' 2001 Car Book page 45. He lists preventative maintenance costs for the first 50,000 miles and then other repairs which may happen in the first 100,000 miles. Of course, these are not listed to probability of failure, but equal for all cars. Still, they give an idea of expenses for different makes.
The categories are Preventive Maintenance, Water Pump, Alernator, Front Brake Pads, Starter, Fuel Injection, Fuel Pump, Struts/Shocks, Timing Belt/Chain and Power Steering Pump.
Respectively, the costs for Odyssey are:
990,324,232,92,405,205,365,398,266,262.
For Sienna:
1033,305,573,98,322,286,384,408,282,518.
Overall, they rate Odyssey average, and Sienna very poor. The costs are based on flat-rate average manual repair times at a labor rate of $50/hr and include some average of parts costs.
I have little doubt Sienna is more reliable than Odyssey, but in the end I doubt the differences in CR are nearly as significant as their charts make it appear, or nearly as significant as they were 20 years ago....
Odyssey LX- $31,639 (Best in Class)
Odyssey EX- $34,415 (A Best Value)
Sienna CE- $33,009 (A Best Value)
Sienna LE- $33,755 (Best in Class)
Sienna XLE- $36,117 (Best in Class)
LX and CE were in the lower price class, while the others were in the higher class. Pontiac Montana was also a Best Value for the higher class. Please see Intellichoice for how they calculate their numbers and equip vehicles.
Yes maintenance costs need to also be considered. You have done a very good job of showing a detailed picture of what the actual total costs are projected to be.
I completely agree with your last paragraph: "I have little doubt Sienna is more reliable than Odyssey, but in the end I doubt the differences in CR are nearly as significant as their charts make it appear, or nearly as significant as they were 20 years ago...."
Cars have become much more reliable as the years have gone by. I think that the difference between a car rated by CR as above average versus average, in reliability, is probably not significant. The total vehicle costs are the ones to give the most weight to and CR does not provide that data. I would probably stay away from a vehicle listed as much worse then average, in reliability, by CR
Maybe we can get someone in Calif to write to the Zone Offfice there and ask the same question, "my 2001 Ody
oil filler cap says to use 5W30 but my Owner's Manual says to use 5W20. Which is correct for a vehicle driven in California?"
That might answer the messages regarding using 5W20 in the hotter climates.
I received this from a Honda ST1100 motorcycle email list I subscribe to and thought some of you might find it interesting.
www.lathi.net/honda-faq/vtec.html
BTW, I just joined the forum. I'm not a current Odyssey owner but hope to start the process of buying one around the end of April or early May. I'll be looking for a white LX.
Drive Safe,
Steve R.
- by moving seats to maximize a given row's measurements, then taking away the space to maximize the next row's, etc. Consumer Reports, which does not have an ax to grind or a purchase to justify, sets up front seats comparably across vehicles (40" of leg room) and then measure how much space the second row has behind the first. When it did that with the Ody and the Sienna, it discovered that surprise ! both had the same leg room in the middle seat. This matches my own impressions when I sat in the second-row seats in both vehicles. The difference is in the third row: there is no question that the Honda has more leg room in the third seat. And there is no question that it is a much wider vehicle. Head room is also manipulated. CR and Edmunds measured front head room within a 1/2" of each other, CR says that secomd row headroom is identical, while Edmunds says that the Sienna is .7" higher. What do these numbers mean ? About the same as "binkybill"'s advert: not much. I am 6'1", and both vans were just fine in the headroom dept. for me.
'You are usually a voice of reason. Are you losing your edge? The Sienna is a fine vehicle but, it isn't the right choice for everybody.'
Of course not. Actually, our country, our children, and our grandchildren would be much, much better off if all of us had just a little more respect and consideration for the future and drove much smaller and mopre efficient vehicles.
'If it was the right choice for you why are you all of the sudden attacking the Odyssey and not supporting people making the best choice for their needs?'
I am not attacking the Odyssey. I am disagreeing with adverts passed off as information. Two completely different things.
If you're shopping only based on probabilities, without concern to the types of problems, or costs involved, then Sienna and MPV are your best bets according to CR. These are both great vans that will appeal to many people, but I don't think reliability is a key differentiator in the long run.
"I am sure you will be quick to defend Dodge/Chrysler". I have in the past. Can't say that I would always do so in the future, though. I'm reasonably sure I've never touted Odyssey's reliability over any of the DC vans. There hasn't seemed to be much of a difference either way. Personally, I've always thought "Honda Reliability" has been overrated, mostly for the reasons given in the previous post.
On the other hand, if you do catch me touting Odyssey in forums specific to other models (and you won't), you can be sure I'll be expecting to see evidence supporting the other model.
No, it was an accurate statement.
"and makes one wonder why grplavloff continues to frequent Odyssey topics when he clearly has no interest in the Odyssey and feels compelled to knock it and Ody owners' comments about it at every opportunity...."
Now *that* is "absolutely untrue and grossly misleading." I have a lot of interest in the Odyssey. And the market dynamics of it are fascinating. And while there are an average of 20-30 posts here per day, I've posted here a total of perhaps 10 times in the last three weeks. Do the math, son !
I think that you missed the context of my statement. I was referring to your conversion of reliability percentages to average problem cost per owner. The issue is not average cost but the probability of incurring a cost.
Otherwise, I agree with you, which is why I included the Caravan on my list.
I can tell you the roof seems a might low in the Sienna and I don't get that feeling in the Odyssey. Leg room is better for me too. How come leg space may measure larger in one vehicle but not feel as accommodating? Is it the seat height?
Last time I checked CR is not considered an "advert." Now I don't necessarily agree with their test methods and results. At least CR tells you what their test methods and criteria are.
What is the shell game with the rear cargo space?
I don't know, but over the years of buying cars I've run into this a number of times: cars that supposedly had more leg room seemed to be more cramped than some cars that supposedly had less. I'm sure that seat height has something to do with it. Part of it, I suspect, is that each one of us has a different ratio of leg vs trunk vs arm lengths, and I'm sure that that is a factor as well.
That's why the thing to do is to just try the cars and forget the propaganda.
'"Last time I checked CR is not considered an "advert." '
I didn't accuse CR of being an advert. They're not perfect, but I'll take their word over that of any salesman here (or anywhere, for that matter...) I was referring to "Binkybill"'s numbers.
What is the shell game with the rear cargo space?
None that I know of.
That's interesting, because extended Toyota's extended warranty costs are cheaper than Honda's.
One thing that really got me in your list: the $500+ alternator. The Sienna (...and Camry...) alternator whistles. I guess that's why it costs so much...
BTW, I was talking to someone who works for Toyota yesterday and asked about the next Sienna. After the obligatory "I can' t talk about that kind of stuff" got a smile and this reply: "Bigger and less expensive." Good idea. Any targets come to mind?
Are you trying to "sell" yourself ?? Since you are a self-confessed CR reader, I assume that you looked at those little ratings bars in the minivan review table. The Odyssey's is, to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps 3% longer than the Sienna's. How do you extrapolate "a lot more things to like" from that ?
I know there seems to be alot of confusion, and various recommendations concerning oil weights, dino versus synthetic and so forth.... but as the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!". We've had no problem with our '90 VTEC with that oil, it has never leaked a drop, still doesn't burn oil, nor overheat in 120 plus temps. with the Air on, for over ten years! As it turns out, that's the oil that dealership uses in Palm Desert. I'm staying with tried and true, and besides.... that's what it says (now) in _my_ manual. (grin).
Also, I would never use Pennzoil. I bought a new boat in the eighties with a Mercury Outboard and had it back to the dealer in Lake Havasu 3 times the first month. The third time the dealer asked if I was using Pennzoil and he said that was the problem. He further stated that the Mercury Outboard owners manuals use to state "do not use Pennzoil", but they could no longer say such because of law suit threat. Anyway, I quit using it and never had a problem again... so if their outboard oil sucks that badly... I wouldn't ever try their new "5W-20". I know it's different oil for different applications.... but if I get burned by a bad product I won't try that brand again, and conversely... if I've had good results from a product, I'll stay with it. Plus it will be more convenient to be using the same oil in both our Accord & Ody.
I'm sure Ody owners won't be all using the same brand or even the same weight or type as each other, but I'm confident that the same oil & maintenance routine on our Ody will give similar results as our '90 Accord. Who could ask for more.
Best Regards,
Skybolt
"By moving seats to maximize a given row's measurements, then taking away the space to maximize the next row's." And just who told you that Honda measured legroom this way?
Why not listen to the manufacturer not a guy who likes to buy bulk 10w30 because they can make more profit. 10w30 is not even a choice in the 01 HOnda's owner's manual.
Now I admit Honda went to 5w20 to raise CAFE. A simple change to 5w20 could have given Honda a 1 mpg increase across the board with no investment.
Now, the question is--does 5w20 suck in hotter temps?
Anyhow, I would love to see the 5 speed MDX bolted to the Odyssey in the future. This may be a real possibility in new production plant in Alabama. Great performance and better fuel economy.
INKY
thanks.
if you search the archives, you'll discover that i was |<--this-->| close to buying a sienna last summer. i would have to say that i'm VERY familiar with it. you know, the odyssey IS 7 inches longer than the sienna (and NO, i'm not making that up!) so those inches have to show up somewhere! and, regarding the sienna's turning radius, 2-3 feet IS a big difference just like a mere 3" is a HUGE difference where legroom is concerned. okay, you're right that i did exaggerate in that not EVERY u-turn becomes a 3-point turning exercise but close to it. perhaps it's just a pet-peeve of mine...i feel the same way every time i drive my sister's '92 accord...an usually large turning radius and it bugs the heck out of me.
-blinkybarney
Also, it does state in _my_ manual to use 10W-30. (grin) Plus, the label on the engine of my 2001 Ody also states "10W-30". Any fantasized "warranty problems" by using such, would be a "slam dunk" law suit in my favor (and I already have Pre-Paid Legal coverage ;-)
10W-30 is the proper oil for my engine's environment, use your dealer's high profit 5W-20 if you wish... I'm sure your engine will last through your warranty just fine on it. :-)
Best Regards,
Skybolt
I have bought and used only Pennzoil in the cars I have owned and driven during the past 40 years.
I have never had a problem with any of the engines in these automobiles including several that reached and exceeded 100,000 miles.
For example, a Mazda RX3 and Mazda RX4 wagon that was used to pull a 19 foot I/O motorboat and trailer. A 1983 Honda Accord which I still own and now has 182,000+ miles, a 1961 Plymouth and 1951 Ford.
I have lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, Fresno, and Denver so there has been quite a variety of temperature and geographical regions that I have experienced.
I do not think it is the brand of oil so much as changing the oil and filter on a regular basis. I do that maintenance about every 4000 miles.
Incidentally I also used Pennzoil in the motor of the boat I owned. I also had no problems with that engine for the 6 years I owned the boat.
Thanks,
Jim d.
Re: 2002 Odys---if Honda follows its other mid-model update formula, changes to Odyssey will be mostly cosmetic to front grille and taillights, a couple of new colors, and, more than likely an EX-L version with factory leather. No new sheet metal until the next generation Ody -- MY2004.
I looked up the specs for both Sienna and Odyssey and found out that their fuel consumption (city/highway) are about the same at 19/24 mpg and 18/25 mpg respectively.
Since the Odyssey has a bigger engine (3.5L vs 3.0L) and is over 350lbs heavier (4288lb vs 3932lb), it can only be concluded that the Odyssey is a more efficient vehicle than the Sienna. So which car company is hurting our country and our children and grandchildren here?
The VTEC engine was first introduced in the 92 Civic in this country, as far as I know. Isn't that right?
I have no problems with CR's conclusions, just your misrepresentation of them. Folks here seem to have difficulties separating the consumer goods item from the ego from the advertising. You are right, I was right: we are talking about machines, nothing more.
No one did. I was trying to give Honda the benefit of the doubt.
Actually, your exaggeration may not be that far off for someone who is doing deliveries (kids or goods)& the like in the Sienna: It's turning radius, depending on whom you believe, is somewhere betw 40 and 44 feet. I believe that most of the side streets in my area are right around that width.
I would hope that your answer would be the same as mine, "both." Else you would be claiming that a 10-ton truck with a diesel is a "more efficient" vehicle for perambulating about than your Ody.
Check List for Odyssey
Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
I need to get a toddler seat for our van. Can anybody give me advice on which seats fit the best in the Odyssey with the latching system?
The Fisher Price model is more expensive, and has a few more features. I opted for the Cosco, and posted a review here:
http://www.ninfra.com/wwwboard02/messages/3070.html
Some more links on Minivan and Child safety here:
http://www.caviller.com
I have listed mine on numerous sites and the local paper. I believe I will get around $25k for my 2001 so the 2000 shouldn't be too far behind. If you would like to discuss further you can email me at brian.n.jones@wcom.com.
Brian
(1). On the first day the malfunction happened:
It was 100% repeatable on that day. Later on in
the same day, it was up and down. Sometimes
worked fine with minor inconvenience. Symptoms:
- Operate using the buttons on the remote key
and on the control panel:
When closing the door, the door closed first and
then retreated a little bit after a very long
beeping. The door indicator for that door would
then light up.
- Operate using the inside door handle:
No action regardless ignition on or off.
- Operate using the outside door handle:
No action when ignition off.
If ignition was on, It behaved similarly as
those buttons on the remote key and the control
buttons.
(2). On the second day:
After the child safety lock was turned ON and
then OFF, the door seems recovered for
everything, including inside and outside door
handles and buttons on the remote control and on
the control panel. But even after this recovery,
a CLEAR sound, "Dong," can be heard at the very
end of the right side door closing. The sound
did not exist before. There is no such sound
from the left side door closing.
(3). The first service, 2 weeks after the
malfunction:
After more than 4 hours service, technician said
the ground was open and he claimed he fixed the
problem. But after I checked the door, the
sound, "Dong," was still there, very clear. And
one more problem showed up. The door maked
"zi--- zi---" noise when it slided during both
opening and closing. Obviously there was no more
4 hours available that day. Therefore another
service was arranged.
(4). The second service:
After 2 hours service, the noise during door
sliding was minimized. But the sound, "Dong,"
is still there, very clear. They said it was the
door locking. But there is no such sound on the
left door. And I never heard this sound on the
right door before the malfunction happened.
The malfunction of the power door totally ruined
my confidence towards Honda vehicles. Every time
you tell service people that the power door have
problem, they will show very uncertain what might
be the problem and how long they need for
repairing. Money may be not the only trouble to
owners. Chunk of time you need to prepare. This
is horrible.
I had at least 3 different problems between the 2 power sliders on my '00 EX. After trips to the dealer w/o results, I wrote to Honda and spoke to service manager at dealer - they called their "tech line" where Honda folks guide the dealership service folks through repairs. Seems like they should have good experience on the door problems by now.
Get it all in writing (warranty repairs) and write a letter to Honda after every unseccessful repair, keep going back to the dealer as necessary. Check your state's lemon laws. Power sliding door problems are safety issues (do not close all the way, sometimes won't open) and can be an issue for resale (imagine door malfunctions while you demo the van to perspective buyer...), both of which, in my state, qualify for lemon law actions (along with a number of other criteria witin the first year of ownership). Overall, this is a very good vehicle, but Honda should disgraced at the frequency of door issues (the Achillles heel of this van), and should be bending over backwards to be sure every dealership knows how get these doors right on the first try.
Good luck.
Source: Me (Own 2001 LX)