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Is the RX8 too high maitenence for a newbie, or is it just right as I hope? Thanks everyone!
Learning to shift on an RX-8 - This is the perfect car to learn to shift on, as it shifts so easily. Best part is if you get confused or too busy you don't have to shift. The car can be driven with minimal shifting due to the extremely wide rev. range! Take your time when learning. Drive when there is less traffic until you get comfortable with shifting. It takes time to get your brain "programmed" to the sequences required for smooth shifting. Don't worry or be harassed by impatient drivers if you stall it in intersections. They've all been there once if they know how to drive a manual. Practice the harder parts where there are no cars, such as starting out on an uphill (using the e-brake - but your bf should know what you need to learn). The only other thing I can recommend is professional lessons. Close friends or relatives are not the best teachers - not because they may not know what to teach - but because there are too many other personal factors that will interfere with learning.
As far as the rest, let the engine rev. - run it at least 3k when cruising, that is to say don't putter around below that RPM for long periods. NEVER shut the engine off until it warms up (the temp gauge moves up a bit) or you could get into the "flooding" regime. If you intend to have a "large" dog on the rear seat, check out seat covers. The ones with nice coarse cloth fibres would give the dog good purchase without worry of tearing the fabric.
Follow these and it's a fine car, even for a beginner. It's a very good safe design that has saved quite a few lives so far in "incidents". Even better when you like the looks of it!
I live in Northern Virginia, outside of DC, and lots of people hate having MTs around here, but it seems they are wimping out and have poor cars to sit in traffic with, hard clutches, etc. As someone said here, they prefer to sit with their coffee and feet up rather than drive the car.
Pup seat protector is definitely in order to protect my new investment. I'm really excited, and doing the appropriate research I think. Makes me nervous to get into a totally new car class than I"m used to, but also very excited about the seemingly perfect fit of the RX8 and my needs.
Any other tips and tricks are greatly appreciated. I'll be sure to report back on any purchase here... stay tuned! Thanks guys!
Did I mention how hot this car looks?!
PS: Silver or Velocity Red? I'm a 20-something blonde gal. Hmmmm.
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No bout a doubt it.....velocity red is the color with the spoiler, rotary accents, strakes and ground effects.
:shades:
Aside from a 5-speed Corolla, the RX8 would be one of the easier cars to learn how to drive a stick shift.
I'm sure pathstar would offer his services as a teacher (too bad "cheeze" drives an automatic....since he'd offer lessons, too).
So this morning I was rear-ended by a Neon (ewww) and my poor Jeep needs some work. I think it's time to toss it for an 8 sooner than I wanted! Not my fault or anything crazy, the silly girl wasn't paying attention and her hood crumpled like a Coke can under my spare tire in the back... got me thinking. :sick:
Anyone been in an accident with their 8, or saved by the TCS/DSC? I've enjoyed the safety of the Jeeps I've owned, and don't want to sacrifice the safety end for a hot car. Read the RX8 safety specs, so I know about that... just would like some real world info as to avoiding accidents or how the 8 body handled any fender-benders. :confuse:
If you could have seen my 8, you would have thought no one survived. It was crushed both front and rear. But, the structure held well in protecting me. Aside from burns and bruises on my arms from the airbag deployment and a broken nose, I came away relatively unscathed.
The RX8, on the other hand, was totalled.
I'd say it sacrificed its life for mine and did so commedably.
PathStar - even though he went Ford, I think there is still a little bit of "rotarian" left in GGuy!.......I mean, if his sister worked for Mazda, and not Ford, he would be back in another 8....or 6...or 3......LOL!.......
ok...Bean - ....Red...go with red...love my red...red is sexy...red is groovy....red makes my heart sing......and get tint....super-cool!........and the 18" wheels...and sport package.....and make sure it's red......sweet, sweet red.....
no, about thoses lessons.....well....after trying to teach my sister, I don't think I have the patience....especially at my age.......(GGuy - you need to think about that as well!) but the MT I test drove was smoooooth...you should love it!......
..also, I just bought some Meguiar's NXT Tech Wax...supposed to be really good... .(AutoWeek said so, I believe)...so the when it stops raining on my days off here in So.Fl. I will try it out! If any of you fine folks here have tried it, let me know!
A colleague has a Magnum. Way different car than the RX8.....or, the Mustang, for that matter. The only similarity with the Mustang is the V8. Not a bad ride. Not my cup of tea, but I can see it's appeal.
Magnum has absolutely no similarities to the RX8. Magnum is big, heavy and needs that motor to haul all that wieght with any amount of verve.
I've read lots of good things about the NXT wax. Never used it, though. I've been a Zaino "guy" for many years and like it a lot. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I was in Miami last week for work. Rented a Solara convertible, but it was even too hot to put the top down.
Heading for a cruise out of there next weekend. Need some time off in the worst way.
Another appearence question, on some pics of the RX 8, they these two silver bullets on the vents on the side of the car, (sorry for crappy description) where can you get those? it dosent appear that they come on the vehicle stock. And finally how close is the Winning Blue color to the color of the RX 8 in X2? Thats all the questions I can think of for now. Any help would be greatly appreciated
The manual trans on the RX8 offers about 40 more horsepower than the automatic. Go with the manual-you'll appreciate that decision down the line.
Flooding is not an issue for me. I bought an '05 at the end of April. I came to this board after my purchase and I thought I was doomed to experience countless problems. Don't freak out like I did. I have had zero problems- and the car is a blast to drive. I was disappointed at first in the low end torque. Also, Mazda was claiming 0-to 60 in under six seconds -which is b.s. I was getting to 60 mph in the mid to high 6's. . --It took me awhile to get used to the high winding RPMs--Redline is 9000. The car is quick enough for me--but more importantly--it handles like a dream. You won't win a race against a Mustang-but you will outperform most cars- and you will appreciate the way the car handles and feels. It looks a mini-viper--I love it.
When you start the car- let it warm up before shut down. Its simple--and you will get used to it. The manual transmission offers the ability to give it higher revs- which you must give the car since it has a rotary engine. Check back to earlier posts that involves a person by the name of Pathstar. The guy knows the car inside and out.
Get the manual-performance wise--it is worth it. You get to maximize each gear to its fullest. You'll appreciate when you have to pick up speed in a hurry to get on an expressway/highway or when you need to pass a slow moving vehicle.
Good luck.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/cars/3534.html
Ok grant it the car in the pictures is a little...well, altered. Mazda should try harder to get a 5 star rating all the way around, btw.
Also does anyone know if the horsepower in the auto trans RX-8 can be brought up to the same level as the manual with out destroying the transmission?
Looking soon to be an RX-8 owner.
Depends on how you make horsepower.
The problem with making the tranny 'live' with the 238hp version isn't the horsepower level, it's the rpm level. Automatics and 9k rpm don't mesh real well.
If you made more hp by increasing the torque (by using a s/c perhaps) and keeping a more benign rpm, then I don't see any reason why the tranny would have a problem.
The difference between the "low power" and "high power" engine shows up above about 6000 RPM, and is really evident above 7000 RPM. There are extra intake ports that come into play. These, in essence, allow the torque to continue unabated to 9000 RPM. Torque times RPM equals horsepower. I'm simplifying things greatly here, but this is the essence of the difference.
The automatic transmission Mazda used was not reliable when the engine was reved above 7500 RPM, so they optimized a "renesis" design for use up to that RPM and paired it with the auto. They optimized another version for use with a manual transmission. It is reliable up to 9000 RPM (the engine is the limiting factor in this case). Because HP is torque times RPM, this is the "high power" engine. In North America we see the "high power" engine as the manual and the "low power" engine as the automatic. In other markets you can get the "low power" engine with a 5 speed manual - because it has fewer parts it is less expensive to build and the 5 speed is less expensive, so that combination gave them a lower cost car to market - still having the RX-8 "looks". The current automatic can't handle more than 7500 RPM - and I suspect it's the torque converter not the gearset that is the limiting factor.
So, the answer to your question is, without going to forced intake (supercharger or turbocharger), no, the automatic can't be brought up to the manual level. A turbo on the automatic is possible without destroying the trans. but we don't know the exact limits of the transmission, and adding a turbo to any car is not easy being that the engine is controlled by a computer (the PCM), which is not easily modified.
Anyway I'm waiting for the 2006 specs to come out. A "paddle shifter" that works would be worth the wait. And does anyone have know of performance figures for the Auto vs the Manual? Does the extra torque of the auto make up for the horsepower loss? Is gas milage any better or worse?
Dennis
I would not recommend getting an underpowered car with the intention of trying to boost it to acceptable levels of power. I would think that is a road to disappointment.
If you are crawling in FL traffic all the time - the 8 runs pretty hot (see the new recall for melting gas tanks) and has a pretty weak A/C. Couple that with you not wanting the manual tranny and you might want to look at something else?
Or do like I do - get your wife her own (auto) car and then you can get what you want!
Dennis
My last question on this subject is... Would four "all season tires" work as a replacement for the current summer sport tires on the existing wheels?-- Will that get me through a winter in Chicago, or should I spend the money on the winter tires and wheels.? I have a short two year lease--and I did not realize I would be paying another $1200-$1400 on tires and possibly wheels too. I hate to sound cheap-but I'd like to save a few bucks.
-- Other than this minor hassle--the car is amazing!
I know Pathstar bought the 17 inch wheels to gain better clearance as snow builds up in the wheel well / and I know a majority of people have opted for the Blizzaks LM 22's. Your response to all-season tires would be appreciated--
Thanks.
The RX8 is a great car, but I wouldn't even consider the auto (and I'm a female).
On the flipside to car customer service, just sent in a nasty survey for warranty work on the BF's 2004 Chevy Duramax. That ignorant thing goes to the shop every couple of weeks for some irritating little "thing" or something else. He saw my nice little Mazda package today and said "Damn, I spent twice the amount you did on a vehicle and all I get are recall notices, leaks, rattles and paint peeling off plastic."
I just put Nokian WR (suv) tires on my Pathfinder last fall. They are great - winter and summer. The SUV designation indicates they are a little "stiffer" to withstand the "incredible" weight of the Pathfinder. (4400 lbs).
Dennis
Was I making a comparison of a Mazda to a GM? Hell no lhess. Just a contrast. Mazda, excellent cars GM, good for building artificial barrier reefs. Take it got a yellow one. That’s another think that I’m hoping will reappear for 2006.
Now, that's funny!
I do agree....Mazda needs to get Ford involved with the A/C and to get stronger FoMoCo batteries for the 8.
1. Is the flooding issue merely an annoyance, just something to be careful of?
2. Is everyone getting the bad gas mileage figures I keep hearing about (15mph and less)?
3. There is some chatter about oil lights(coming on), check engine lights, power loss, engine replacement etc. etc. Are these problems isolated or more common?
4.Any other complaints/issues/problems?
5. Looking in Boston area, very few available with Nordic Green Mica, and these only in automatic. Is this an uncommon/rare color or am I not looking had enough?
6. Sales figures I've seen are abysmal for this car. The guy at the dealer I test drove at has left two messages for me asking if I bought something/am I still interested. I suspect a great deal can be had on one of these. Is invoice (or less) not out of the question?
I know this is a lot, so any feedback would help. I guess the quality/reliability issue and fuel (in)efficiency are my main worries with what otherwise seems to be an awesome car that is a great value. :confuse:
But, to address your issues.....
--flooding is only an issue if you shut the car down before it warms up. As long as you get the car up to operating temps, you shouldn't have any issues.
--MPG will be all over the map. The RENESIS does not like to idle. So, if you're in heavy, stop & go traffic all day, you're MPG will be low. After break-in, I consistently got about 16-17 MPG in city driving, and about 21-24 MPG in all highway driving....exactly as I expected.
--I don't think there's anything widespread about warning lights coming on in general, but a good rule of thumb is to check the oil level every 3-4 fill-up (a good habit with any car). The RENESIS is designed to use a bit of oil, so it's nothing to be alarmed about as long as you keep an eye on it.
--I don't know what the sales figures are for the RX8. They came out of the gate "on fire" saleswise last year. I will admit that over the past few months, there seems to be a ton of them on the dealer's lots, though. I don't know if Mazda overestimated the sales, or that sales dropped off that dramatically.
Bottom line, the RX8 is one of the most rewarding driving experiences you can get from a car at it's price (especially at the discounts dealers are offering now). Is it a little quirky? Yep! But, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that offers what the 8 does at what looks like a selling price of about $24-$25K.
I went to the Mazda Gallery in Norwood. I played the whole game, test drive, give all my contact info, wait while the sales guy talks to the manager, confirm I'm really interested again, wait some more, then talk to the manager himself. The sales guy was really nice and the test drive was long and lots of fun and his manager seemed nice enough too, but if you remember the scene in Nemo where Nemo and Dori meet up with the sharks who were swearing off eating fish, that's what the dealership felt like. I don't mind swimming with the sharks, but when I'm the live bait dangling on the hook and they don't bite, what's up with that?
Anyway good luck and lets us know how things go.
First, it looks like Mazda overestimated RX-8 sales in the US. US dealers got a lot of cars for a while there. Here in Canada, we didn't see that, and I haven't seen discounted prices.
Second, if you think you can get $1000 or more below a local purchase, it seems to me it would be advantageous to travel to buy. An airline ticket and hotel stay would cost you less than the savings, and you get a small vacation - and get to drive a new RX-8 back home! What could be better? You would want to "close the deal" remotely, by having them mail you the contract and perhaps the documentation so you can get licenced locally before leaving.
Don't worry about servicing. Dealerships treat the service centres as a separate company. Don't let them convince you that if you didn't buy there, you wouldn't be treated as well! You should be able to get service at any Mazda dealer. Again, shop around until you find one that seems to know what they are doing, and do it to satisfy the customer, not some false sense of "oh well, if we HAVE to".
So, shop around by phone and internet. Close the deal remotely, if you can. Most of us can afford a two or three day vacation to pick up a car and drive it home. Oh, and while doing the research, use it on your local dealers to see if they will come down to the prices you think you can get.
Too bad we can't buy new cars in the US and bring them back into Canada! RX-8s are still selling for US $30,000+ here in Canada.
After several weeks of planning to buy an RX 8 locally, this idea of travelling somewhere to pick it up sounds fantastic. My wife has been asking for a little weekend vacation and we love the southern states. Jetting into Raleigh NC out of Providence RI (we avoid Logan airport in Boston) is easy as pie.
I guess there would be a little bit of work on our part to register the card after we get it back to Boston. I agree, the dealers don't care where you bought it come service time.
OK, folks send me the ZIPs, ZIPs that work with good dealers for CarsDirect, Intellichoice, Cars.com and Edmunds.com and any others where Internet negotiating can be done successfully. Thanks. I'll give feed back as the process progresses. This could be fun.
Thanks again PathStar.
I guess my real problems then are can I as an individual do the following things:
1) Get a dealer to give me a firm price that is firm and legally binding upon them for some specific period of time for a Black RX 8 AT.
2) Obtain said price via electronic e-mail alone without ever once visiting their dealer location or talking to any representative over the phone.
3) Have contract documents snail mailed to my Boston address so I can have a lawyer look things over for hidden out of state risks and such.
4) Travel to the dealer with a cashiers check in hand and drive the car off the dealer's lot.
I know folks have done this with new and used car purchases for years now. Is Mazda going to be very different with this method of doing business?
Thanks for your help.
1....your going to be limited to NY, CT, VT, MA and Calif....some of the border states stock Cal em. cars.
2....I ran a locate on the car you want....there is one in the entire Northeast region from VA to ME.
3....price that is firm and legally binding upon them for some specific period of time................
how long? Dealers want you to buy the car and drive away. Anything more than a few days and some dealers will balk.
4...Obtain said price via electronic e-mail alone without ever once visiting their dealer location or talking to any representative over the phone
.........Somebody has to do the quote and the delivery process. Which is fine but nothing slows down a sales process like email only communications. Car dealers just don't sit in front of a computer all day waiting and hoping for the email to show up. Especially when you need the answer to a question quickly.
5 ..Have contract documents snail mailed to my Boston address so I can have a lawyer look things over for hidden out of state risks and such.
........I understand your thinking here but it's one more thing to delay the process. Dealers arent fans of mailing contracts. How can they confirm your identity? With all the identity theft going on (dealer are huge targets) to do everything via mail and no contact sends up all the red flags.
I'm starting to see why the dealers arent jumping up and down to make a sale, This sounds more like a project than a car sale.
I have a few more questions. Have you made an offer to buy the car from any dealer? If so how much? Did they say no way and walk away or did they countrer offer??
1) Cal emissions might be the show stopper outside of the Northeast.
2) One dealer told me they could get the base model with the Sport Pkg. but then you and two other dealers convinced me it just ain't gonna happen.
3)...price that is firm and legally binding upon them for some specific period of time...........
I have no problem putting down a marker to hold a deal open for a bit, I've thrown hundreds at deals only to walk away. Hopefully a dealer would take my money for a few days extra while I shop the deal around. Generally I'm a good tipper, I don't want to treat people badly. I'd really like to do what I've been doing with my Saturn dealer where I've purchase four Saturns over a decade now, keep on buying from the same folks.
4...Obtain said price via electronic e-mail alone without ever once visiting their dealer location or talking to any representative over the phone .........
I'm guess just three or four messages tops before a commitment is made on my part.
5 ..Have contract documents snail mailed to my Boston address so I can have a lawyer look things over for hidden out of state risks and such....
Yep I guess this part is the weakest link in the process simply because the craziness of the online environment. Kinda hoped the CarsDirect, Edmunds, Cars.com and IntelliChoice would provide a clean safe and simple process, but it looks like all the systems simply blast e-mails all over the place and NOTHING else.
Better fuel mileage (by a BUNCH), does not use oil, a LOT better resale value, more reliable, cheaper to insure (for me, may be different for others), and heck - it is a convertible.
The 8 has a back seat that can be used for 2 more folks in a pinch and fixed roof, but for a sunny day car you can't beat the S.
With the S I get 22-24mpg around town, 26 racing around the back roads, and 28mpg of a trip (all with the top down). So far with the 8 I have gotten over 20mpg only on a interstate trip, and I am getting 15mpg or so around town. Of course, it is new so that may improve some as time goes on - but most folks report that it does not. This is probably the #1 complaint about the car - a small tank and terrible economy. I sold a 394hp sedan that got about the same mileage as the 8 gives me. That is my choice, but the poor mileage does hurl. If you pick up the latest issue of Car and Driver they have a long term update on their RX-8. Poor mileage and a lot of oil usage were the main gripes. One reviewer remarked "So this is why no one else makes a rotary".
While I love my 8, if I had to pick one it would be the S - no question about it. But that is me, you have to get the one that talks to you the best.
As was pointed out, flooding is not an issue if you warm the car up before you stop it. But if you forget (or someone else is moving your car) then there could be a problem. Rotaries use oil, so you have to check and top it up a lot - more so that a piston car, but that is part of the "Deal" if you have a rotary. Nordic green is not a very popular color and I am told is being dropped for the 2006 model year. Dealers got stuck with a LOT of left over 04s for most have not ordered as many 05s so the choices do not SEEM as good at a lot of dealers as they did earlier.
If you are picking just on mileage, resale, and reliability the choice is easy. But if you like the 8 more and you need the extra space then there is nothing "wrong" with buying one. Just go into it with your eyes open to the issues so you are not surprised down the road.
Dennis
No news to report on the manual trans. cars. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!
The only official thing we've heard from Mazda so far on the 2006 units is the colour chart.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The S is good for a couple if you are going to end up where you start. Otherwise the RX8 has plenty of room and enough zoom-zoom-zoom to be a lot more versatile and usable.
QUESTION: If the 06's don't change much will the discount prices still apply (not including the old model year depreciation, of course)
But if you had to choose one and don't play golf (what a way to waste a perfectly good walk in the woods?) the S is by far the better "Deal". My wife and I have enough room for a weekend in the mountains without too much trouble - but the drop top wins ALL the comparisons for me. Well, that and the better reliability, resale value, fuel economy, etc
I ASSUME that Mazda will increase the incentives as the year goes along - just like they did last year. At first tied to (maybe overpriced) MAC financing then later just "have at it". I do not think there will be as many left overs to pick from this time as last since most of the dealers ordered far fewer cars. Also harder to find a loaded up car or one with Nav, since those are the ones they mostly got stuck with last year - and chose not to re-order for 05. You get a car now for best selection or play "Dutch auction" with it later. The longer you wait the fewer cars to choose from but the less you are likely to pay.
The 06 AUTO cars should be nicer, so the left over auto 8s should be really hard to move (and are generally not very desirable anyway). Once the 06 changes have been firmed up then we will see how desirable they are and how quick the 05 prices fall. I know if you want titanium gray or nordic green you need to look at an 05 or 04, since those are not supposed to be available colors in 06.
Dennis
Tough luck for all those folks who bought the 04 and 05 autos. As Dennis said, they were not popular anyway and now with the 06 offering so much more hp's, those resale numbers will likely hit rock bottom.
The horsepower is only up 16 - it would feel like a minor increase to the "seat of the pants" dyno. The important change is the extra two gears, allowing better use of the limited rev. range! The torque curve is also changed - perhaps flattened a bit but broadened out. Unless the numbers being thrown around in the rumors are due to the 6 port being used. I'd doubt this, but "we shall see". In October, at the latest.
So the AUTO cars really take a hit on the resale value since the 06 will have 2 more gears and 16 more ponies.
Dennis
If you are willing to fly down and drive back there are dealers in KY and GA that will make you a similar deal (assuming they still have cars). I bet you could find a dealer in the MA area that would deal, though. What about Boch Honda in Norwood? Aren't they the (self proclaimed?) "largest Honda dealer" ? Their web page shows 7 S2000s in stock.
An RX-8 with touring would invoice right at $28k - so if you purchased it at invoice it would be just $2k less. Currently there IS a $1k MAC incentive so if you finance with MAC and purchased at invoice it would be $27k. To be fair (apples to apples) if you compare an 8 with leather seats the difference would be less - the invoice on a GT is just over $29k - or $28k with the rebate. At times the required MAC financing can be at a really high rate, but you can always take the rebate then refinance the car later
So right now, the difference between the two cars is not that much. Of course, I paid about $600 under invoice for my 8 - which would make the difference a little more
Sure, if you wait Mazda will almost be sure to put larger incentives on the 05 8s to move them out. The peak on the 04s was $3,250 (varied by region) before they just gave the dealers $4k off the top with no MAC financing strings attached.
Any fixed roof car is likely going to be safer in a crash than a drop top - extra air bags or not. The Bose stereo in the 8 is a LIABILITY rather than a bonus. The S has a standard DIN sized stereo and standard sized speakers. I spent about the same for the accessory MP3 player for the 8 (replaces the single disc CD with a MP3/CD player) as I did for the high end Pioneer stereo CD/MP3 player I put in the S. I then had to spend another $90 or so to add an aux in to the stereo in the 8 for my XM radio - on the Pioneer stereo in the S this was a $20 cable.
With the 8 you can't easily replace anything - the stereo, the speakers, etc. With the S you can.
I think the 8 looks "richer" (with a leather interior) than the S both inside and out. I have the optional NAV in the 8 and I love it (but it is expensive) - this is not available in the S.
Not counting the oil, if you drove 12k in a year paying $2.50 a gallon for premium (required in both cars) it would take 800 gallons in an 8 at 15mpg and cost $2000.00. In an S it would take 522 gallons at 23mpg and cost $1,305. So you would save back nearly $700 of the extra you paid for the S in the first year. That assumes those mileage figures (which is what I currently get commuting to work), $2.50 for premium, and 12k a year (which is a lot more than I drive).
The 8 only goes back to 2004, but you can check current "book" used values here, KBB, NADA, etc for a 2004 S VS a 2004 8 and get an idea about resale value (hint: if Mazda can't sell them new w/o incentives then you would have to discount a used one to sell it).
Anyway, I have my cake and eat it too - so I don't have to choose. They are similar in "spirit" - a light, great handling, tossible, high revving car. One has a better track record and drop top (which is the best part) the other is a little "shaky" but has a fixed roof and 4 seats. If you don't have a winter car to drive, then the 8 would make more sense (along with 4 snow tires). Heck, I picked up an old Subaru Legacy AWD for cheap for snow days so I don't drive EITHER car to work when it snows :surprise:
Sounds like the 8 is the one talking to you. Be sure to test drive USED sample of both so you can redline them on an engine that has been broken in. Neither motor shows its true colors until the tach sweeps past 4-5k. Nothing WRONG with choosing the 8 - just go in with your eyes wide open to the oil and gas consumption issues.
Dennis
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/aug/04cars.html