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1. Toyota Sienna CE (you get Toyota reliability and all, just without the bells and whistles of the higher end models, plus, at $24,000ish I think they represent a pretty good buy)
2. Pre-Owned Ford Freestar SES because they depreciate like a rock, you get not great mileage but certainly better mileage than the Sedona (17/23) and you get some features like the fold flat third row that you can't get on the Sedona. Also, CR says that the Freestar/Mercury Monterey have "average" reliability, whatever that means. Used Freestars on our side of the border in my area are around $15,000.
3. Mazda MPV LX because it's not terribly expensive and the other posters here seem to like it
And Finally...
4. If your budget allows, I would recommend the Honda Odyssey LX. You get Honda quality (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not so great) all the latest safety features and a split folding third row.
You might find a dealer or other body shop that is able to test such a retractor. There may also be independent experts that can even verify a failed retractor after a crash. A google search for something like "seatbelt lawyer" would probably turn up numerous agencies with expertise and referrals if you believe injuries were caused by a related defect.
In any case, I guarantee that the normal operation of your seatbelts is to lock the retractor in a crash. If yours didn't lock in a crash where they should have locked, then it is most likely an uncommon defect or a broken mechanism. If there was any kind of widespread problem of this nature that covered a whole model year of a poplular vehicle (or more), there would be much more publicity and many more deaths and serious injuries than from the Gen3 seatbelt buckle release problem.
Are you trying to convince yourself that the Kia Sedona was a wise purchase?
Read the Kia Sedona Problems Forum and see how well Kia honors their 10/100,000 warranty. Even if they did fix the "piece of junk" for free without giving you the run-around, How often can you bring it to the dealer, how many days can you go without use of your vehicle?
Why are there so many new 2005 Kia Sedona's still sitting on the dealers lots with give-away pricing and huge warranties?
I just bet if its your kids face you would have trouble MOVING ON yourself. and no Im not trying to convince myself about a Kia, don't you care if there are seatbelts that are useless, I just bet your kids who have to ride there care. I already KNOW the seatbelts are useless been there and learned by wrecking ours.
Consequences IF THE RETRACTOR DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY, IT WILL NOT ADEQUATELY PROTECT OCCUPANTS IN THE EVENT OF A CRASH.
Corrective Action DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE SEAT BELT RETRACTOR. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN AUGUST 20, 2001. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT DAIMLERCHRYSLER AT 1-800-853-1403
Hmmm they must of recalled it secretly cause this is the first Ive heard of it Just found this surfing the net.
Wasn't your daughter in a rear seat?
The fact is, YOUR seatbelts in YOUR van were faulty. And I agree, it is very likely that you'll never know if your seatbelts are faulty until you have an accident. It's possible your jerk-type seat-belts could break right at the point of impact. Who knows. You can only protect yourself to a certain extent, the rest is luck or lack thereof. I'm sorry your vehicle was defective and your daughter was hurt. Sometimes poop happens and it sucks, but passing on false imformation isn't going to help anyone. If anything, I'd recommend anyone with a vehicle over a few years old find out how to test your seatbelts to see if they're working properly.
The manufacturer will know the exact models, years and serial numbers affected. You should call that number to verify that yours was one of them. For example, this one appears to only affect MY 1999 vehicles.
If you found it on the NHTSA website, it clearly wasn't a "secret" recall. In fact, the recall stated that owner notification began on August 20, 2001. If your model was affected and you weren't notified, it was probably an issue with lost mail or an incorrect address.
Incidentally, one reason you may have different retrator types in your vehicle is because you probably have pre-tensioners and/or force limiters in the front seatbelt systems but not the rear ones. It may simply be cheaper or easier to use a different retractor system when a pre-tensioner is present.
Given your claims and conviction, I strongly suggest you find an experienced law firm that deals in vehicle safety issues. Discussing the details here might not be a great idea if you have a legitimate lawsuit and the vehicle manufacturer was at fault.
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I think all the new vans have 5 stars
You can get a Sienna CE for well under $25,000. A nicely equipped LE is well under $30,000.
"If every van I tested seatbelts work first jerk why don't the Dodge caravan do the same as all others on the rear straps?"
As has been explained numerous times in various forums, there are different types of retractors. Sometimes, different types are even used in the same vehicle. Being able to lock the retractor with a jerk is only a valid test of one type.
That said, the switchable locking retractors in the Odyssey and Sienna can come in very handy for child restraint installation. Between the seatbelt mechanisms and locations, carseat installs in the third row of current generation Chrysler vans also tend to be more difficult than the others, in my experience.
MSN Autos does not perform crash tests. You need to go directly to www.safercar.gov and www.iihs.org to find explanations of the testing done in the USA.
All vehicles sold new are designed to have working seatbelts, that includes the Dodge vans.
"If every van I tested seatbelts work first jerk why don't the Dodge caravan do the same as all others on the rear straps?"
Ummmm, perhaps because they have a DIFFERENT TYPE OF LOCKING MECHANISM?????
A seatbelt which passes a 'jerk' test tells you two things:
First, that it has a centrifugal-type of locking mechanism in the reel. Second, it is apparently functioning.
A seatbelt which fails a 'jerk' test tells you NOTHING. Zip. Nada. You can't make ANY conclusions about a seatbelt which fails this test.
Enough already.
You failed to mention in all your posts about seatbelts if the air bag(s) deployed in your crash? I'm assuming your DC was a '91 or newer. Just curious that in 35mph frontal crash, the air bag should have deployed.
Some how I survived over 55 years of driving and a lot of those years were without SEAT BELTS, Air Bags, Stability Control, and a lot of other safety things that are on cars nowadays. Maybe it's because we didn't drive as FAST at today's drivers. 'Course, there were fewer cars on the road then, but also many more 2-lane roads, and not many 4-lanes.
Hope your Daughter is improving everyday. I'm sure when it is her turn to start driving, she will remember the accident, and be a SAFE driver.
Regards
Boxwrench
(1) 2007 model Odyssey or Sienna: Are these vans going to have the T & C middle seat fold-away capability?
(2) Any after-market protective liner (or such like)to attach to mid & rear seats for the folded-down seat position?
Purpose is to protect seats when van used to haul materials and they are shoved/pushed into "cargo" space.
Thanks. Mark
For further protection you could also add additional floor mats, I suppose.
On our 1996 Caravan which, of course, does not have any seats that fold into the floor, I used black 36" wide vinyl carpet runner to make custom fit mats for the second and third rows. This approach has the advantage that this carpet runner material can easily be cut with a scissors to fit around the seat supports which holds the mat in place nicely and also provides a "wall to wall" mat that protects the carpet completely, unlike aftermarket and OEM mats which are always skimpy and ill fitting. This vinyl matting material is quite inexpensive as well. Can usually be purchased at most big box hardware/lumberyards like Home Depot, Lowes and Menards.
Consider yourself lucky, like me. Motor vehicle crashes remain the #1 cause of death for kids 1-14 and in age groups all the way to 35. The majority of those fatalities are to unrestrained and improperly restrained passengers.
I used to ride unrestrained as a kid all the time. I survived. Many others didn't. Highway fatalties have dropped slightly over the years, despite the huge increase in vehicles and miles traveled. Fatality rates have dropped significantly since the late 60s. I'm glad I was never involved in a crash when I was a kid or I probably wouldn't be typing now... My kids have a much better chance and would probably survive some very severe crashes that the front seat passengers would not survive.
A faulty shoulder belt retractor is a possibility, but there are other possible causes for the injuries you describe. For example, some types of less common crashes, especially those with vertical motion like a rollover, can actually disengage some seatbelt retractor systems. Another possibility is a passenger who was not wearing a properly fitted shoulder belt at the moment of the crash. Most kids 4-8 [and some older] do not fit adult seatbelts very well without a booster or child restraint. Kids often circumvent an uncomfortable shoulder belt by slouching, leaning or putting it behind their back or arm. Correctly used boosters and child restraints can resolve these issues. Similarly, any slack in the shoulder belt before the crash could have led to injuries. Anything from a retractor with low tension to a shoulder belt that got caught in a booster seat guide can be a factor, too.
It is also a little unusual that lower abdominal injuries were not present, as these are usually the primary type of injury on someone restrained only by a lap belt in a severe frontal crash.
"I don't think its a dirty secret you shouldn't talk about if seatbelts are not working but it seems some do. Any of you guys work for Dodge or something?"
You asked a question and received many valid responses about how different types of seatbelt systems function. If you don't choose to believe them, then your best recourse is to have your seatbelts inspected by an independent expert. If you believe your seatbelts are defective, you should pursue a lawsuit and possibly save other children from harm if the defect is more than an isolated failure.
In that you seem not to trust responses here, I think you would be best served by directing future questions about defects to a lawyer, crash reconstructionist or forensic engineer with expertise in this area. At the very least, you won't have to worry that they are working for Dodge. Plus, they could quickly determine if a faulty retractor was responsible for the injuries or not. A simple tug on the shoulder belt is NOT a conclusive test. You should consult an expert in person if you have doubts or do not understand the issues involved.
Honda/Toyota's loss: it's obviously not worth waiting for a pig in a poke.
Mark
You all are why I cherish info boards.
Mark
A failed jerk test tells you NOTHING unless you know what type of locking mechanism you have. So how do you know it 'failed' the wreck test? You are ASSUMING. It's been pointed out that a large number of factors (principal amoung them being IMPROPER restraint) could lead to a seatbelt 'failure'.
"It failed for us but somehow you think it may magically work for you?"
You DON'T know that it failed. If you HONESTLY believe that there was a defect, why haven't you retained legal counsel?
"Thats a big risk my daughter could have died."
Correct. Precisely my point. Unless you KNOW that the seatbelts failed (and a jerk test will not tell you this), precisely WHO is running the big risk based on an assumption?
If you put your entire faith in seatbelts which lock when jerked (which you appear to have done), but a seatbelt lock malfunction was NOT the cause of your daughter's injuries, then aren't you RUNNING A RISK of the same thing happening again?
I don't work for Dodge, in fact, I would never own a Dodge or Chrysler product due to the various quality problems we had with their transmissions and suspensions over the years. I don't believe that a large, multinational multibillion dollar corporation has sold millions of minivans with rear seatbelts that don't work, or we would have heard about it by now. I believe you had a lemon, or a faulty seatbelt, but I do not believe all Chrysler products (or vans, what have you) have this problem.
I'm a Honda guy, and will be until they screw up, but for now, this horse is dead, and the further you talk about this, the less credible you seem and instead become just a whiny consumer. It would do you good to give this a rest.
By the way, it seems to me you'd have bought a used van with more safety features than your Kia, since safety is a high priority.
Give the issue a rest for a little while; you've made your point, and by now, EVERYONE has read it two or three times at minimum. It's time to move on.
It should be free, it would just involve time, not money (although for most people, time IS money). Call the area rep for Chrysler. I'd be making the Regional reps know that it will take a lot for a civil suit not to be pursued. We can all sympathize with you, but it won't get you anywhere otherwise.
What if Dodge had the same type of locking mechanism as all the other manufacturer's and, after the accident and your daughter's injuries, you jerked on the belt and it worked?
Would you just shrug your shoulders and go on not caring to know why it failed to protect your daughter?
My point is that, at this time, you have no idea if you had a faulty belt or not.
"..my Daughter jerks the seatbelts says "LOOK mom they catch the FIRST jerk everytime" she feels safe now and so do I."
I'm glad you both feel safe in your new van. I hope you enjoy many safe and trouble-free years in it.
You rear ended someone on an on ramp, leaving 15-20 foot skidmarks (from another post)? I can't picture how that would happen..
You have other safety issues much more pressing than the seat belts catching.
Have you ever thought maybe it's misplaced rage, since the seat belts issue could have been avoided completely.
Keep your daughter safe. You feel safer in your new van. Drive safer, too...
temp409, please, PLEASE, realize that TUGGING THE SEATBELTS DOES NOT PROVE A DARNED THING!!!!!. Don't worry about pissing off your dealer The fact that you arent pursuing legal action (something I don't understand, but that's not my call) should make them very happy.
Ask your dealer (or if you prefer, another local dealer) how to contact Chrysler's regional representative. Make sure you tell them you have a lawyer, that will get you more answers (hopefully).
Keep in mind, many lawsuits on the gen III is no different than any other company. Where a product is sold, a defect is possible, and where a defect is, a lawsuit may be close behind.
*****TUGGING THE SEATBELT PROVES NOTHING WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TYPE OF BELT SYSTEM YOU ARE DEALING WITH*****
You don't need a crash test. If you are genuinely interested to know what went wrong, then you need to retain an experienced crash reconstructionist and/or forensic engineer with a highway safety background. They can inspect the seatbelts and retractor system and give you a good idea of the failure without any type of crash testing. You can google those terms to find someone in your area. In case you do file a lawsuit, most of these professionals can also serve as an expert witness on your behalf.
For example, these turned up on a quick search. There are dozens more:
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/
http://www.thecrashlab.com/
http://forensicaccident.com/
http://www.johnmuse.com/
Am I the only one to recognize the irony here? The DGC owners have completely clammed up on this issue, and the most ardent posters attempting to clear the DGC name are.....Odyssey owners? :confuse:
Who'da thunk it?
I went here found a number talked to a VERY nice guy who recorded the phone call he said that a specialist that deals with seatbelt matters will call me tomorrow they were out for the day now. He got the vin number from my van and made a file. Im sure all will be recorded. Thanks to -thegraduate I think that was the best advice, seems like the Christian thing to do to just deal with them first. Maybe now at least the 2007 will have same catching mechanisms in rear as the front. Ill let you know how the call goes tomorrow. What I really want is to see a child size crash test dummy put in the rear in a crash test at about 35 mph and just see what happens I would bet ALOT of money NONE will catch. Should I insist on a recall? if that is the case? I bet they will not do a recall because they didn't for the gen3 case they just pay the people off. I don't want that. I just want them safe for everyone. I loved that van and I told him that and it should be a easy fix if they will only put the same catching mechanism in rear belts of caravans and durangos that they put in the front. Anyway Ill keep ya posted and thanks for listening to all my whineing.
MANY owners of DaimlerChrysler minivans have posted concerning the unfortunate incident and the data they posted has been ignored. Most of the data posted by Odyssey owners has also been ignored. Is there any proof that the child was actually wearing the seat belt properly?
I have grandchildren riding in both a 1999 GC SE and a 2002 T&C LX where their parents put them in either a child seat or a booster seat that is securely fastened. We do NOT drive any vehicle until ALL passengers have properly secured their seat and shoulder belts.
AMEN!!
I also don't drive anywhere unless all occupants are properly buckled up.
Interesting how I'm defending DCX yet I own a 2002 Odyssey EX
Agreed. For those of you just joining us, here's the information that has been reported numerous times over the past several days:
*Temp409's daughter was injured in a crash. She attributes this to faulty seatbelts in her Caravan.
*Her rear seat belts did not catch on the first jerk.
*The effectiveness of seatbelts cannot always be tested by jerking, as they employ different mechanisms for catching.
*The catching mechanism employed by the rear seatbelts in her Caravan is unknown.
*She has filed a complaint with the NHTSA and has contacted Chrysler to begin an investigation.
*The seatbelts on her Kia pass the jerk test and she is happy with her current vehicle.
Now, unless there's something NEW to add to the seatbelt issue, let's get back to the topic, which is Minivan Shopping. I'll be removing any further rehashing of seatbelt issues from this point forward.
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Interesting.
IF this is the case, I wonder why the front seat belts catch when jerked?