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Toyota Tacoma vs. Ford Ranger, Part XII



  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    I guess it wasn't you that made that quote. It was something I had heard some of the Ford guys say in regards to the Ranger's absence in the off road comparos that I love so much :) That quote seemed like a lame excuse so I was just trying to show how dumb it sounds. I understand you don't offroad much, and thats great. Im looking into getting a GPS real soon (Garmin Legend). Any advice. Thanks for keeping this civil, everyone.
  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    No one hear ever said that a locker was the best all around axle setup. IT IS NOT. That is why it comes with a package labeled "TRD OFF ROAD package." THE LOCKER IS THE BEST AXLE SETUP FOR OFF ROAD. There is not way to refute that. I will agree, an LSD is the best for running to the mall and the occasional trip to the beach and will HELP off road. The torsen even has a bigger usage band (there I said it). However, you can't tell me that an LSD is a more appropriate setup on a truck that has "OFF ROAD" written on the side. Someone please tell me why this idea of mine is so hard to understand. I would love any questions so I can explain my point further.
  • issisteelmanissisteelman Posts: 124
    There is absolutely no question that the Tacoma TRD off road package is the BEST (and I do mean best) off road package currently offered for pick up trucks. All dealers will tell you this (Ford dealers included, if they are being honest) and all magazines I've read thus far say it as well. For anyone to say otherwise is ludicrous. This is simply a fact that (I believe) no intelligent person would refute. TRD is a GREAT off road package, period, end of story. In fact, I do a lot of offroading here in God's country and I now wish that I had paid a little more to get the TRD package (although my truck has performed very well without it).

    Take care..........Steelman.
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    I know this question has been posed before with a variety of responses, but does anyone know if it's possible to order a Tacoma with a limited slip? I mean, I know you could always get one aftermarket, but I thought I read somewhere that it was available from the factory if you "special order" it.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    I have picked apart this TRD package over and over again in past posts months back.
    I would be foolish to say a locker is not best for offroading. But, most owners, I can easily say at least 95 percent of them would not even know when or how to use a locker in what terrain.
    Facts show over 90 percent of 4x4's barely touch even a gravel road. This package is expensive for some Bilstein shocks/springs and a locker.. For aftermarket you can do better, much better.
    Try comparing the cost of changing the clutches in my LSD to replacing your locker, whew! what a difference.
    Sad, you don't know my background obviously. I live in the Northwest, visit the Cascades, MT Hood, MT St Helens, Tillamook Natl Forest, to the deserts around Bend, Three Sisters area. I own a 1998 Ranger S/C stepside with a 4.0 (offroad pkg) I put on some LT265 all terrains. My Ranger has never let me down, and I have been into some pretty tough spots. I have a friend who owns a TRD and have been able to go anywhere he can. My Ranger has been reliable and dependable. I can now consider myself a long term owner. I am thousands ahead of the typical Toyota owner, I paid less, thousands less upon initial purchase. I will be in the market again in about 2 years. I want that new 4.0 the RAnger has to offer!
  • plutoniousplutonious Posts: 799
    1998 Ranger? My 1998 Tacoma TRD SR5 (V6, Ex-cab, 4x4, 3.4 V6, PW, PL, tow package, manual transmission) was $22,500 out the door. Sticker was $24,890. Did you really pay "less, thousands less?" At the time of sale, there was a $1000 rebate.

    Are you really thousands ahead of me at this point? Look at your local auto-trader or wheel-deals and compare our trucks. The Toyotas have really held their value.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    TRD package includes the alloy wheels with BFG 265s, the most expensive wheel option on Tacoma. That is where the most cost is. If you don't go with TRD, you need to pick the wheels: steel, chrome or alloys.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    Heck, I just paid $19,400 for a FULLY loaded 2002 Ranger XLT, which has several features not even available on a Tacoma (unless you wish to spend even MORE on a Limited). Sticker was about $26K, before all the discounts & rebates.

    So even if I could have bought a new 2002 Tacoma for what you paid for your '98, I'm at least $3000 ahead.

    I paid $22K for my '99 Tacoma (just like yours, except with an auto trans). According to the ads in the Denver Post, its worth about $17-18K now. '99 Rangers are selling for about $15-16K, about a $2K difference. Using only my simple math, it still looks like the Ranger is a better deal, at least for those of us who live in the Denver area.
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    Scorpio took the words right out of my mouth. try buying alloy wheels aftermarket and see what they cost. I would guess at at least $200 each. and those tires would be around $100 each as well. (and don't forget about the spare) all of a sudden the price of the TRD package doesn't look so bad. in fact, if anything it's a bargain.
  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    Well first of all you have told a little bit about your background and that you have offroaded quite a bit in an area I would kill to even be able to visit. Lucky you. I knew that you realized that lockers were helpful.

    The only problem I have with what you said earlier was that you stated that the TRD package was a waste of money. I HATE it when people say that. I have never put down Ranger reliability. If you did any very tough offroading, i.e. actually lifting a tire, you would see how much better a locker would perform. Other than that, you are exactly right, lockers aren't for everyone. That is why they MOSTLY come in an OFF ROAD package. Don't forget, though, you can get one by itself for $400, very competitive with aftermarket lockers that aren't even selectable.
  • plutoniousplutonious Posts: 799
    Let's not forget what happened to the economy, though. In 1998, the stock market was sky-high, tech industry was booming and people were buying vehicles. I honestly don't think I would have saved that much in 1998 had I bought a Ranger instead. I'm sure the deal on your 2002 Ranger was influenced by the stock market crash and 9/11 - two things which didn't affect my purchase.

    But even if I could have saved, I didn't want a Ranger. I've driven them, and I simply like the Tacoma better. I wanted what the TRD offered, and Ford STILL doesn't make anything comparable.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    You're making a pretty big assumption, with no basis of fact to base it on. I will concur that the overall decrease in current automotive purchases had something to do with both 9/11 and the "dot.bombs" that crashed the market. But, there's NO way you can extrapolate that Rangers cost more in 1998 than they do today. The only way I could even come close to accepting that "logic" is if some 1998 Ranger buyers are able to substantiate your assumption. I seem to recall cpousnr (Dennis) paid about $18.5K for his well-equipped Ranger, but I can't recall if its a '97 or '98. Anyway, that's still substantially less than you paid. Whatever.

    BTW- After owning TWO Tacomas, and now a Ranger, I'm much happier with my Ranger after two months of ownership than I was after two months of owning my new '99 Tacoma or my new '95 Tacoma. I only kept the '99 for eight months, it irritated me so much. Since I primarily drive on paved roads, the TRD package was a nuisance, NOT a blessing. I wanted the TRD for off-roading, but in my opinion, a TRD Tacoma is NOT a good paved-road truck.

    Some things I really like about my Ranger that aren't even available on the Tacoma:
    1) Four-spoke steering wheel, leather wrapped. I HATED that "one-spoke" Tacoma wheel. No place to hook my thumbs.
    2) A clock I can see, that didn't cost extra.
    3) Electric mirrors (only avail on Tacoma Limited).
    4) The third and fourth doors.
    5) Truly comfortable bucket seats (I heard Toyota finally improved theirs???).
    6) An MP3 player (also plays CDs).
    7) A five-speed automatic transmission.
    8) A security system that didn't cost extra.
    9) The no-cost bed liner.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    $19,600 for a fully loaded Ranger XLT 4x4 4.0 in 1998. When I priced way back then a Tacoma comparably equiped would have run me $22,800. I remember this because I was interested in the Tacoma until I saw the prices they wanted for them..
    Plain truth of it is I am a Toyota fans worst nightmare... A Ranger owner that uses his Ranger as a true 4x4, who paid thousands less, who has never had any problems with their Ranger..
    I am living proof that is perceived quality/reliability advantage is just that... perceived.. Both of these trucks are capable, reliabile and quality built.. Both are good trucks..
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    "Four-spoke steering wheel, leather wrapped. I HATED that "one-spoke" Tacoma wheel. No place to hook my thumbs."
    -the last Taco I test drove had a 4 spoke wheel...

    "Electric mirrors (only avail on Tacoma Limited)."
    -not true, this is readily available on SR5's.

    "An MP3 player (also plays CDs)."
    -who cares, just go aftermarket. :)

    "A security system that didn't cost extra.
    The no-cost bed liner."
    I'm pretty sure you still paid for it. -nothing is really free.

    "The third and fourth doors."
    -I couldn't agree more.

    Toyota definitely made some changes since the '99 model year, so my arguments might be moot. And yes, the seats are a lot better now.
  • allknowingallknowing Posts: 866
    Really Vince, they're all liars!!! I guess Toyota makes fewer trucks because they spend too much time and money buying off virtually every publication that rates small trucks. We all know that Toyota doesn't really have better overall quality now don't we. Cunsumer Reports etc. is simply making up all of the data showing that the Tacoma has fewer problems than the Ranger. Yeh, you're their worse nightmare and you'll take care of them!!!!.
    By the way, the Ranger is a good truck but at the same general quality level as the Tacoma....nobody believes in fairytales here.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    we have been around in this room for years now...
    Look right here at Edmunds and compare data of past Tacoma's and Rangers, also visit and thier reliability data shows you different. The Ranger is not as unreliable and of poor build quality as you want to believe in YOUR MIND. Like I said, I am a Toyota fans worst nightmare.. A Ranger owner with miles on his truck and NOT ONE PROBLEM.. paid thousands less, can go anywhere a Tacoma can, use my Ranger as a real 4x4 in the Cascade range and deserts of Eastern Oregon....
    You just go on believing what you want and justifying the extra 2-3K most Tacoma owners spent for that preceived reliability/quality advantage..
    By the way.. Whats up with this Toyota sludge/engine issue??
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    to my '99 Tacoma SR5. I haven't been to a Toyota dealership since 2000. I'm glad to hear that Toyota finally upgraded some of the Tacomas really bad points (wheel & seats).

    Indeed, I know nothing is really free, but the liner, security system and all the other stuff were part of the $19.4K I paid for the Ranger, not something "added-on" by the dealer after the sale (a typical Toyota trick) for extra money. Sure, you can go after-market for ANYTHING. I spent over $3000 on things for my Tacoma that it didn't come with (total Tacoma investment of over $25K). The point is that I don't feel I NEED or WANT to spend additional monies on the Ranger, except for the better tires I already purchased. To each his own.

    Again, in my opinion, the new "toothy" grille on the newer Tacomas is a major turn-off. It reminds me too much of John Elway (check it out), and I'm not a Broncos fan. That being said, I believe it was Scorpio who posted pics of his late model Tacoma in all-over silver that actually looked pretty good. Best Tacoma I've ever seen, and I have yet to see any similar monochrome Tacomas around Denver.
  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    Well I think that is a question on a lot of people's minds. Why? It seems to me that you don't hear as much about it b/c folks realize that owners were more at fault than Toyota. Just MO. However, I think Yota is doing some sort of recall. Does not affect the first truck, though, I am pretty sure.

    And not to stir up trouble, but your truck with an LSD can not go ANYWHERE a locked truck of any kind can. Maybe anywhere in the area you wheel. But, again, lift a tire and tell me what happens. I couldn't resist. Other than that, I am very happy you have had good luck with your truck. I think most people know that Rangers have good build quality, I do. However, Tacomas also have a great reputation in the same arena. That's one reason why this debate keeps going, both trucks are good.
  • plutoniousplutonious Posts: 799
    "You just go on believing what you want and justifying the extra 2-3K most Tacoma owners spent for that preceived reliability/quality advantage.."

    What about styling and performance? IMHO, the Ranger is ugly and is always the underdog in any performance comparo with the Tacoma. I hate the fact that Rangers don't have headrests - I'm tall and want a headrest in case I get rear-ended. I think it's a joke that on every Ford truck, the shock absorber/bracket hangs well below the rear axle, vulnerable to damage. I think the Ranger's styling is juvenile, with that hood buldge and cheesy plastic molding on top of the bed rails...etc.

    You should be comparing FX4s to non-TRD Tacomas, as they're similarly equipped and the price difference will probably be negligible. How can you compare any of the Ford Rangers to the TRD and say the Ranger is cheaper when Ford makes nothing like the TRD?
  • allknowingallknowing Posts: 866
    You know as well as I do that I haven't said that the Ford had poor quality. The Ranger is a great truck, however, it simply is still below the general quality level of the Tacoma. That's why the Ranger is never rated as good as the Tacoma in overall quality by any consumer publication. They do, however, rate the Ranger very well and I'll agree with that.
    As for the alleged sludge problem, all I know is that it doesn't affect any Tacoma engine so I haven't bothered to research the issue.
  • But he brings up Ranger's looks, headrests, and shock absorber placement on the rear axle.

    1. The "bulgy" hood is only available on the Edge. I think it looks like a cowl induction hood, and at 1" or less, it hardly bulges.

    2. The ranger head rests go to about 8 inches below the roof.

    3. Shock absorbers, not this old argument. How about the door locks you don't like either? Like how they unlock automatically when you open the inside door handle, or how they are hidden from view when locked(what a good visual indicator). Back to your qualm, the shock absorber isn't the lowest place, the lower edge on the rear differential is. So if you are driving so your shock absorbers are in danger, so is your general rear differential pumpkin.

    Don't believe me? See below...

  • tbundertbunder Posts: 580
    i hate to say it, but you're wrong on your hood comment. all 2001 and newer rangers have the bulged hood. this is to make way for the SOHC 4.O engine. it is higher in the intake area. yeah, its the same old stuff from pluto. didn't we rehash the shock placement about six months ago?

    pluto- how many times do i have to tell you- the FX4 is just a regular off-road ranger with some BFG tires, a front susp. skidplate, a torsen lsd, the bilstein shocks, and a rear towhook. and fyi, those "cheesy platic moldings" on the bed rail top is protection for the bed rails when you *read* WORK YOUR TRUCK. we understand why you wouldn't like these, since toyota wouldn't ever include something like these in the standard price. as far as the appearance, both trucks are cool (not the old design like you have, just '01 tacos and newer) but the ranger has it all over the toy in looks. it has a way cooler front end, along with better lights and towhooks. i sense a little jealousy with the aging of your truck.

    the FX4 is basically the truck i had sans the torsen rear lsd and bilstein shocks. i bought the FX4 front skidplate and 31 BFG's. all other susp. components are identical. yeah, its sad ford doesn't equip their regular off-road pkgd. trucks with better tires, but one can buy very good tires and still have a lot of cash left over compared to a tacoma price.

    sad- if its the customer's faults that their crappy toyota engines were locking up on them, why is toyota footing the bill? you need to do some more in-depth research. you'll find that these engines were engineered to such standards that they inadvertently built these engines to do this. they screwed up on the design.

    and also, why do you say that a lsd cannot go where a locked rear can go? you do understand that on a lsd when one wheel spins, the other one locks in? when your locked rear has one wheel off the ground, you have only one wheel powering you. what's the difference? ill tell you. the lsd is automatic, the locker you have to engage. both will get the job done off-road. its just a matter of opinion and what particular area off-road you're talking about. if you're climbing steep hills, the locker will probably be the sure bet. but for slow trail crawling, the lsd will be just as good- cuz at some point or another, the locked axle will only have one wheel powering it just like a lsd has when it has one wheel up and the other one locks in.
  • plutoniousplutonious Posts: 799
    ANY false bulge on a hood in an attempt to make it look "sporty" is plain stupid, IMHO. JUST like those fake scoops on the tasteless Mustang's sides, posing as brake cooling ducts. CHEESY. I guess the Ranger's design is aimed at a lower denominator...

    I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't measure my headrest from the stupid roof. If it doesn't go up the back of my head, it's worthless. End of story.

    Shock absorbers - the less you have hanging exposed, the less there is to damage. PERIOD.

    And the Ford's disappearing lock knobs is a farce. They pinched pennies by cutting an inch off the stupid knob. You should be able to unlock a door by not having to physically open it from the inside or fumbling with keys.

    I would venture to say I've put in far more miles on Fords than you have in Toyotas. Actually, I've put in more miles in Fords than Toyotas. No way, no how will you convince me Ford makes the superior product.
  • plutoniousplutonious Posts: 799
    I'll agree the plastic bed rails protect the bed - but do they really have to be several inches high (Ranger)? Face it, that's simply a styling issue, not workability issue. I had the option of buying my truck with two kinds of bedliners - over the rail, and under the rail. I chose under the rail because it's so hot here the over-rail liners warp and leave big visible gaps.

    Jealousy??? I personally think the 1998 Tacomas were the best looking. To be honest, I don't like the new Tacoma grills or how many Tacomas have that molding running down the sides. Mine's just pure white with no funky grill or side molding. Everyday I'm asked what my truck payment is and I tell them "paid for, it's a '98." They can't believe it, because it looks brand new. And with just over 50K miles, I think it's just getting broken in...if you want to see EXACTLY what my truck looks like, go here
    Only difference is my truck doesn't have the bug guard and has BFGs.

    Nah, I don't have a case of truck envy, tbundy. In fact, my next vehicle will be some kind of sports coupe. But the Tacoma will stay. What do you think of the new 350Z or BMW 325 coupe?
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Is it just me, or did tbunder claim a while ago that FX4 was "specifically engineered" to traverse deep waters, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, and was definitely NOT like FX4 package on F150? you are starting to say "Oh, but it is just some tires and shocks".

    If it's Firestones' fault for making crappy [non-permissible content removed] tires that kill people, why is Ford footing the bill?

    rick5: Personally, I despise the "And it comes standard with the truck, so you don't have to pay a dime!" tactic that any dealer will use. Why do I want a plastic liner when I know that I'm going to use Herculiner or Line-X/Rhino to spray the bed? Just like you, I don't feel a need to spend additional money on my Tacoma (yes, the pics were mine), but I'm going to. Good spray liner, different tires (ones I have work fine, but I want more aggressive tires). It's a pain in a butt to sell off the parts later. It seems to me that Fords' approach is "Big Brother (in this case Ford) knows best what people need, and that is why our trucks come with wide range of conviniences that many soccer moms find attractive". Thanks, but no thanks. I like the choice not to buy what 1 million baseball dads and soccer moms thought would be great in a truck (these are the same people who are driving SUV industry to [non-permissible content removed]).
  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    means LIMITED slip. Hence, when one wheel is lifted ALL power goes to the lifted wheel. Where an LSD adds grip is only when both tires have marginal traction. That's just a fact. A locker means NO slip. Hence equal power goes to each one. The only way to lose all traction is to lift both tires. Think of it this way, an LSD is sort of like AWD where as the locker is like 4wd. You can probably find some inaccuracies in this analogy, but its close. AWD transfers a percentage of torque to the front or back axle when the other slips, but not all of it in most cases. 4wd transfers power to both ends no matter if one is slipping or not. Granted AWD is nice, which would you rather have on your trail rig? I've never seen a rockcrawler with AWD or LSD. Have you?

    You obviously have never wheeled with a locker. I understand you are just trying to add to the debate, but there is really no sense in arguing over this proven fact anymore. It is so stupid. LSD= better on wet roads and slippery conditions. Locker= better in extreme (read off-road) conditions with next to no traction. With all due respect, what do you not understand? I would be more than happy to keep on explaining because it might be something others want to learn about, too. I'll say it again: A locker is th only appropriate axle setup on a truck that has a sticker that says "off-road" on the quarter panel. LSD's are the best all-around setup, thats why they come on Rangers, minivans, and sports cars alike.

    And by the way, the locker is just as automatic as picking your nose. Push the button and it engages either then or as soon as slippage occurs, no matter what.
  • tbunder--->Actually the "power dome hood" is only found on XLT and Edge models. It is not on the XL's. From the front portion of the hood, ther both look similair, but the rear and middle of the hood shows it all. There is a crease in the middle of the power dome hood, and it is raised about 1 inch in the style of a cowl induction hood.

    plut--->It is not a matter of me giving up. It is a manner of two opinions in disagreement. Do not plan on winning any argument if both sides are fairly well set in their ways.

    Even thought the fake brake vents are annoying to you, they are 1. Styling ques to the early mustangs, and 2. Quite easily made functional with aftermarket kits.

    "Shock absorbers - the less you have hanging exposed, the less there is to damage. PERIOD."
    I'll remember that on my commute to work. Better watch out for those potholes! Exclaimation point!

    "They pinched pennies by cutting an inch off the stupid knob. You should be able to unlock a door by not having to physically open it from the inside or fumbling with keys."
    Why do you want to unlock the door, and not open it if you are on the inside?
    If you are on the outside, just click the remote unlock button. You're gonna be needing the keys if you plan on starting the car anyways.
    Besides it's a security issue to. If you crack your windows to allow the cab to not heat up during the summer day, then what is to stop someone with a coat hanger to open them? Nevermind, you are right, it is just a conspiracy by Ford to save 20 cents per vehicle.

    Finally, put the same miles in a Ford as you have in a Toyota and then compare. How come for someone who always berates Ford, you put more miles on them?

    Scorpio--->You would think it would not take 2 university degrees to venture a question without researching it first. Ford vs Firestone.

    Is it just me, or does this forum repeat the same stuff about every 6 months.

    Question 1)If Firestone did exactly what they were told to do, why is the plant that produced the in question tires no longer in operation?
    2) If Firestone provided tires matching quality and performance specifications as Ford requested, then how come Goodyear has only 2 tire separation incidents, vs the 1183 Firestone incidents?

    Ford is footing the bill, because Firestone was dragging their feet, placing blame on the Explorer, not their Decatur plant tires. All the while the chances for more Ford owners to get in tread separation accidents and injury increased.

    Ford fixed the problem, gave everybody new tires by Goodyear, and no more issues. If there were still problems, wouldn't the media have jumped on this by now?

    Anybody else who still believes Ford is to fault for Firestone tires, is nothing more than sheep following the media shepard. Automatons.
  • tbundertbunder Posts: 580
    that stang is probably the most intelligent dude on this forum. (seriously)

    he proved me wrong, i wasn't thinking of plain xl's.
    he proved pluto wrong, who really needs to unlock the door without opening it, and who wants something sticking up that some punk can just grab on to with a coat hanger and rip off your stuff?
    and who really needs clearance higher than your punkin on the rear axle?

    and yes, he always has his facts straight. his firestone explanation is spot on. and i also noticed that no one is debating the toyota thing. fact is, there is nothing to debate. toyota screwed up on the design of the engine.

    and scorp, this is from me. yes, the FX4 pkg. on ranger is more hardcore than f150. and yes, it basically boils down to the shocks and tires between the regular off-road pkg. and the FX4 pkg. the FX4 has one additional skidplate up front, and yes i forgot, it has modified air intake to help it be more waterproof. but the big things are the shocks and tires- assuming you have a lsd from ford.

    sad- you need to do some research on the torsen and ford lsd. they are engineered for one wheel in the air "traction"- straight from a torsen engineer. why do you think all the power would be transferred to the wheel up in the air when wheeling and getting off-centered? a lsd distributes power to the wheel that has the most traction. one wheel slips, the other one is locked in. this would be the one that is still on the ground. but if you read my post, you'll see that i do not say the lsd is best, i say that is the best on certain terrains. depends what you're doing. climbing hills, or just cruising trails. but ive never been stuck with any lsd.
  • saddaddysaddaddy Posts: 566
    the LSD is not best, and Im sorry if I put those words in your mouth. However, no LSD in the world gets power to the proper wheel when one is in the air. I just don't believe that it was engineered specifically for that purpose. Hehe. If it does, then its not an LSD, its a locker.

    Here is why this doesn't make sense. Sure, when one wheel is in the air, some torque is sent to the grounded wheel, but not enough to actually move the vehicle using the one tire. If the torsen is really a locker, then I rest my case, but that would be the ONLY way that it would actually work with one wheel in the air. Plain and simple.
  • issisteelmanissisteelman Posts: 124
    For you Ranger fans who believe that a Ranger is a better quality vehicle than a Tacoma all I have to say is dream on. You folks are having a pipe dream. If you really believe that, I want what you are smoking. Also, if you truly believe that, I have a couple of bridges here in northern NE that I can sell you dirt cheap. You pro-Ranger fanatics really make me laugh. I'm beginning to think that you people actually believe that a Ranger is better quality. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Of course, OJ Simpson believes that he didn't commit the crime, but we all know the truth. I think you Ranger fanatics have a serious case of OJ-itis.

    I'll see you in the nastiest, mudiest places on earth.........Steelman.
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