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As for your anger, I think it was natural given all the anti-Neon vitriol. Edmunds is supposed to be a site for enthusiasts, not a junior high school playground. Posts like yours are bringing this thread back to intelligent dialogue about engineering and performance.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the SRT performs on the racing circuit.
"embrace the lowest educated and minorities"
Definitely Democrat. A significant interest in empowering those without huge chunks of change to buy power!
You haven't been paying attention then. I think the LEAST I've seen an 03 Cobra dyno at is 355 at the wheels, which, figuring in 15% drivetrain loss, works out to around 405-410 at the crank. I've seen numerous bone stock cobras dyno at 365+, around 420 at the crank.
Heres one dynoing 363 at the wheels bone stock.
http://www.grcperformance.com/images/03cobraheaders.jpg
Even more impressive is the big gains it makes from simple mods. The 388 at the wheels was with just FMS headers and MAC cold air. Close to 450 HP at the crank with 2 simple, cheap mods. And swapping out the SC pully will bump you well over 500 HP.
Re-read my post.
You're also on the verge of a complete humorectomy. Report away, laddybuck!
What the devil does a Cobra have to do with SRTs anyway, judas? Just curious.
And this little smoker is coming in at $20K. Can a straight GT Deluxe at $22K really blow it away?
But Dodge is claiming under six to 60, and given the racing history of Neon ACRs, we already know they stick like glue. We'd have to see a track showdown on stock models to convince me that the pony can kick it.
Added advantage: I've ridden in the back seat of a Neon before. Of course it ain't no Maybach, but it beats the knee-crunching butt-buster in a 'Stang fer shur!!
Very appealing is what I call a sedan you can legitimately take to the track (not that I do) AND haul a couple young'uns in!
The sales pitch for the SRT-4 is then something like: "Serious contender at a 20% discount!"
;-)
If anything, I would think Subie parts might be more expensive, but as I've never purchased any, that's just speculation on my part!
I don't see ADMs lasting that long on SRT; maybe six months. I suppose if someone's just gotta have a pocket rocket and can't wait, then there is serious benefit to going the WRX route today.
If only I could stand to LOOK at the darned things! ;-)
I still like them. I think what differentiates an enthusiast from a non is that the enthusiast will tolerate mishaps in reliability if they get a car they really love to drive. Neon is one of the very few American cars I would consider buying.
Thanks Shifty, you pegged it! That explains why the Neon is so appealing. It's a true utility player. Can be almost anything you want it to be. For small change too.
As for the WRX vx. SRT question, it's a great one and I hope a magazine decides to take up the competition in a comparison test soon. Road & Track has already made some remarks in favor of the SRT, and not just based on the price advantage. Here's a link:
http://roadandtrack.com/reviews/firstdrives/articleDisplay.asp?articleID=390
Interesting comparison to the Datsun 510, and this is exactly how I see the Neon...an everyman's BMW. For that reason, I have always thought the Neon carries on the tradition of the BMW 2002. That's the car I would compare it to, but unfortunately for the Neon, the two do not compare in terms of respect and dominance of their respective eras. The Neon has not been well-marketed by Chrysler, and that's too bad.
Such a fumble right on the goal line. I'm not sure the Neon can ever come back, even with the SRT. I suppose if the car really hit a home run, maybe the past can be forgotten.
As you can tell, this Missed Opportunity for an American product really bugs me!
Because of Dodge's "fumble" the American WRX or Si is the Mustang GT... which isn't a terrible thing, really. It's hard just to type this, but Dodge could learn a thing or two from Ford in this area.
Rose-colored glasses on one end and a mud-filled boot at the other!
No doubt about it, Neon had teething pains that took a solid three years to overcome. '95-'97 MYs encountered a number of difficulties, the head gasket among them. But from the '98 MY on, improvements have been well-noted, and the issues sphinx alludes to just aren't realities any more.
And the early and continued success of the Miata based principally on reliability is a ridiculous notion. Miata owners would likely have suffered re-glued trim or a head gasket replacement willingly, perhaps even glowingly.
The American-automobile-manufacturer-blows-it-again aspect really bugs me, too. It's amazing how stupid management-by-counting-beans can be, because there's no connection between finance and marketing in these decisions. In other words, market an excellent R/T from the start, market it in enthusiast publications and through racing publicity, and then offer it in limited quantities....and then watch people line up and pay MSRP for the thing, not demanding 0% financing and rebates. Then watch as the brand image of Dodge (and at the time, Plymouth) becomes truly distinctive and exciting, with a made-in-USA twist that would even work in Europe, where it would be a niche import product.
So, I've been debating buying a new little runabout for myself. Would I buy another Neon? Sadly, no. A Sentra, Impreza or Protege are on my list, though.
Would I buy a bigger Dodge / Chrysler product for my family, ala Grand Caravan/Durango/Pacifica? Sorry, no.
-Jason
My FX-16 had 250K miles on it when I sold it and it is still running last I heard. It revs to 7500 rpm and I simply changed the oil and filter ever 4-5K miles. Aside from regular maintenance that thing was trouble free. I would put that car in a similar satsu to the BMW 2002 and Datsun 510.
I still own my SE-R with 140K miles and it still revs freely to 7500 rpm. This car rocks. It is so fun to drive and cheap to maintain. I am keeping this car until I turn it into a second race car.
The Neon simply does not measure up in reliabilty to these two cars. It might be fast and cheap, but one thing it is not is reliable. I really do not consider a car realiable if it does not give you 100K trouble free miles. And all of us should not accept anything less from any car maker.
Personally I think the 2003 Cobra is also a great bang for the buck car, I'm glad it is delivering as promised. There isn't much else for under $34,000 new that delivers that much, just as there isn't anything else under $20,000 that delivers as much bang as the Neon does.
Here's another question. I have seen those lists of HP per dollar but I think those lists are flawed. they don't look at all vehicles and they don't take into account rebates and such. So here's the question; what current vehicle has the most HP per 1000 dollars based on MSRP after standard current rebates? What one has the most Torque per $1000?
The 2002 z-28 (if there are any left) has $2000 off it's $23430 base MSRP and 310 HP w/ 340 ft-lbs. So it gets a 14.47 for HP/$$ and 15.87 for torque/$$. I can think of something better at 18.16 on HP and 19.74 on torque, anybody know what it is? or can anybody think of something better?
The Neon is still in production, but the SE-R is not. Nissan never could focus and has blown a number of opportunities. If it weren't for Renault, Nissan would probably be bankrupt right now. Chrysler became a fine manufacturer in the 90s...styling and profitability were world class. As for reliability, the pre-2000 Neon was one of Chysler's few reliable cars, ex-trim problems. The post-2000 Neons are safe and reliable. Not as reliable as most Japanese cars, but also more fun to drive and better-looking than most Japanese sedans.
Renault did bail out Nissan, but the net result has been perfect. Carlos Gohsn has turned Nissan around and it is making profits now. The Z is back and you get the COTY with the G35. The Altima is selling like hotcakes. The Altima, Z, and the G35 are the hottest cars in the market right now. Nissan is on a roll, they are indtroducing one hot car after another.
And we won't talk about the Q45 and M45.
madeover their entire line.
Dohn't understand the seat controls on top of the seat bolsters. Never seen that before. I hope it goes away quickly.
Oh, and as long as we are still way off topic... the answer to my best hp/$$ quiz is the new 2003 Hemi Ram. The 1500 ST stickers at under $19,000 with the Hemi, and there is (at least) a $2000 rebate. So $17,000 for 345 HP and 375 ft-lbs. The only true 1/4 mile run I have seen has it at 14.8 @ 93 mph but that is a single run, uncorrected, new motor, lots of wheelspin on a truck with full options including the heavy 20" wheel package. There will be stock Rams in the low 14's for sure. Not bad for $17,000, then add a $4000 Kenne-bell and make 515hp even better! I decided to go this route rather then the SRT-4, but by the time I actually ordered the Ram I ended up checking off lots of options and went with the Quad Cab, so it will be just under $26,000. Hopefully it will be here by April at the latest, I can't wait! Until then I'll have to stand by to defend my 2nd choice the SRT-4.
As far as the G35 being hot...I guess is depends on what you define "Hot" to be then.
Chiming in the G35 discussion, the Infiniti is a great car, but the interior in particular leaves me feeling cold about this car. Compare the interior to a BMW coupe's, and they're in different leagues. Also, I believe the G35 was rolled out originally without a manual transmission, which took the wind out of its sails in the enthusiast market...which is after all its target market. I happen to like Infiniti, and once owned a 1995 G20, which was a fabulous, underrated car. (Yes, I have a habit of seeking out underrated cars, like the Neon).
The next-generation Infiniti was a huge disappointment. I drove one on the Forbes estate in Inifiniti's big rollout party (great party, lousy car). The car looked more generic and cheap inside and lacked the classic styling that I liked about the first G20, the car did not feel as dynamic, and there was no improvement in horsepower. What I'm getting at is Infiniti once had a fantastic, distinctive brand image of performance and quirkyness (like the clock in the center of the dashboard)...the cars had soul. Then they tried to copy Lexus, with disastrous results. I think Infiniti is getting back on track, but G35 interior lacks the soul of the early cars like the first Q45.
I'm wanting a new car next year, and am looking at the EVO and STi. Of course, I'll be 25 in a few months, so my insurance should nose dive...
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/ Those glh cars can still be found for under $1k if you get lucky or want one thats been driven into the ground but most go for a bit more than that. The 86 omni GLHS on the other hand is one of the numbered cars that Shelby built and those go for around $4k in decent shape and every now and again you will see a low mileage real clean one in the $10k range. The 87 charger GLHS cars go for a little more. I am a little biased since I own a hopped up 89 Dodge Caravan turbo that will take most imports aslong as its in a straight line .
Anyway I wouldn't buy an srt-4. Not that I think there is anything wrong with it, it's just not my style. I'd rather spend another $1k or 2 and get a Mustang GT and have a v8 and rwd. The srt just has a little to much of that punk street racer look for me and at 27 I just don't go for that crap. I am sure the 25 and under crowed they are shooting for will eat this thing up though. With all the young kids running around with massive amounts of money blown on their civics and crap I doubt there will be a problem finding people that can afford it and are interested in it.