"The first Element rolled off the production line at the plant in this western Ohio village early Tuesday evening. The vehicle will go on sale Dec. 19."
I first had the money (although inexpensive) and had a need for a vehicle with all that space. I like the design and look - I would prefer the black on black color scheme. I think this vehicle is going to surprise a lot of people. It would be an excellent vehicle for camping or even transporting material for contractors. I don't think Honda intended the vehicle to be used by families or professional people but with the inexpensive price and the utility it could easily be a company vehicle or small/large family second car!
...and that is the possibility of a CVT automatic transmission.
Don't laugh--the Nissan Murano uses a JATCO CVT that can absorb 240 bhp and also is fully compatible with all-wheel drive. I think Honda should seriously look at putting in the JATCO CVT on the Element, which will probably result in better acceleration and possibly better overall fuel economy.
One thing missing seems to be a moonroof. A skylight over the back seat is in the AWD EX models, but no moonroof is available in front for any Elements. Maybe 2004. The biggest complaint I have read about seems to be slow acceleration with the automatic. The FWD 5 speed is quick enough at 0-60 8.1 seconds, but reviews say the automatics are over 10 seconds and an AWD automatic might be slower still.
0-60 in 10s sounds slow, but in reality is, that is about as peppy as many compact cars or some family sedans people don't complain about. With AWD and auto, Element should do the run in 10s or less.
And on the subject of cargo room compared to sedans, to me it looks like Element will gobble up more baggage than the trunk of almost any car with the rear seats up. This picture, although from a not so perfect angle, gives a good idea of the room behind the seats. Compare the location of the seatbacks and the span of the rear window glass.
I saw that picture earlier, but I think the seats are slid forward or folded in some way. Look at how far back the seatbelts are behind the seats. I haven't seen an photos taken at a clear angle.
Real ugly and it's a four seater. I just cannot imagine that many people are looking for this kind of vehicle. My guess is that this is Honda's Aztec.
I do applaud Honda's decision to make a vehicle with more Utility than Sport. I hope the future brings more squarish vehicles with decent interior space and smaller engines and less compact car soap bars with large v6's and mediocre gas mileage.
...a lot of cargo room in that picture, but there really isn't much. Think it's 27.9 total from floor to ceiling, which isn't really practical space. The "usable" space is much less. Compare that with 35 or so feet in the CR-V and maybe that's a better choice for folks who need to haul stuff and people at the same time. Take the seats out completely or just fold them up and there is tons of room in the Element and it would make a great small cargo van or delivery truck. Perfect, probably, for sales or tech folks who need to carry equipment. Personally, I think the utility aspects of this buggy have been way overhyped. It will be good for hauling people or gear but not both.
"Real ugly and it's a four seater. I just cannot imagine that many people are looking for this kind of vehicle. My guess is that this is Honda's Aztec."
This is a niche vehicle. It isn't marketed toward "many people". It's an alternative to the ordinary mainstream (high volume) vehicle. That's why they are only planning on producing 50K units. By using many components from the CR-V and Accord, Honda is keeping the overhead under control. They won't have to sell 120K per year in order to turn a profit.
Tpat - Ditto. The Element is an either/or proposition. Toting both people and stuff is not its bailiwick. The CR-V is the better choice for that sort of use. Soon we may have the Latitude as another option.
How about crash worthiness? I know late model Honda's score well, but has anyone heard how this vehicle will fare with the door configuration. So much 'meat' in the side is door. No B-pillar. Has Honda conducted any tests of their own?
Honda seems to think that it will earn five star ratings for side impacts. I dunno if they are only quoting models with airbags, though. And, yes, they have one of the most elaborate crash testing facilities in the industry. So far, they have been good at predicting IIHS and NHTSA test results.
I wouldn't expect the independent tests to be conducted anytime soon though. It usually takes a while for the IIHS and NHTSA to acquire a vehicle, test it, and sort the data.
We'll probably only see those results next summer.
I'd be curious to know how much better it does in the IIHS bumper basher, since that was the CR-V's only weakness in all of IIHS' tests. The spare is inside, so it should suffer less damage.
I found this info re: door construction at a Honda SUV forum. Lots of Element info. and photos. Side Cargo Doors: 'The cargo doors are designed for maximum utility and easy load-in with a best-in-class opening size of 55.5 inches. Because the Element does not have a B-pillar (the pillar mounted vertically between the top and the bottom of the vehicle in the middle) loading boxes and other bulky items is much easier than a traditional four- or two-door design. From a safety standpoint, the deletion of the B-pillar is compensated for with a reinforced vertical beam in the structure of the rear door, reinforced lower side sills, and floor and roof cross members. When shut, the base of the doors connect tightly to the body side sill with a hook and catcher system. Overall, the design is anticipated to achieve a five-star side-impact rating, the highest possible from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
The side cargo doors feature an "interlock" safety lever to insure that the front doors always open first. Rear passengers can reach forward and open the front door to exit the vehicle if nobody is in the passenger seat. All seat belts have been specially construced into the design of the vehicle to not interfere with door functionality The front doors offer 3-position opening, and can reach an opening angle of up to 78 degrees. The rear doors use a forged steel gooseneck hinge and can open at an angle up to 90 degrees.'
This vehicle is Honda's Aztek, no doubt. I'm sure some people will look beyond the looks and Honda loyalist will like it but it's a niche vehicle, nothing more.
thomas: welcome, unfortunately the door apparently weighs about the same as the door in Fort Knox. ;-)
Baja's November sales were down. It can be tough for some niche vehicles, too. But you gotta take some risks, I guess. Subaru is doing a cloth version for cheap, and will have a turbo next summer.
Element will hurt Baja further, because I think the same extroverted customers will begin shopping that vehicle.
Oh, I see. You were using the name "Aztek" in place of the word "ugly". Sometimes, I do that too.
I'm not sure what that has to do with being a niche vehicle, though. Niche vehicles are designs that are intended to reach small markets which other mainstream cars do not fill. Subaru has made a living exploiting the niche for AWD wagons, while the rest of the industry made SUVs.
The greatest benefit to competing in a niche is that there is no competition. Or very little anyway. It's also a way to introduce new buyers to the brand. The greatest problem is finding a niche that has a decent market. Subaru's Outback did that. I think the Pontiac Aztek did as well. They just bungled the execution.
I'd be the first to say that the Element is a van not an SUV. However, it does one big thing that a minivan does not...
I wouldn't call Subaru niche anymore. It's a pretty mainstream car company these days. The only nice aspect (if you can call it that) is that all their cars are AWD.
Actually, I think Subaru is MORE of a niche company now than it was in, say, 1994. I mean, consider:
Baja: strange-looking combo of a car and pickup
Impreza WRX: $25,000 oddly-styled compact car with loads of horsepower
I'm not saying those are bad vehicles, just that they are clearly not mainstream. An argument could be made for the Legacy and Forester being "normal cars", but remember what a 1994 Legacy and a 1994 Impreza were like? Much more mainstream (boring, some might say).
The OB was a total Niche vehicle. Then Volvo and everyone else got on board with AWD wagons. Now it's time for subaru to find another niche or my prediction is that they will loose ground steadily til GM sucks them up completely.
I see more Outbacks around than I do some "main stream" models from other companies. Subarus are popular up here with the snow and ice and I only see the company becoming more and more mainstream.
Subarus have been in my family for years (lived in Guatemala). Went head over heels for the Mazda 6 hatch pics on their site. Wife and I were looking at a Pilot...before we split up. But, now that I'll be single? I like that it's boxy and...yes, Aztek-ugly. I want something that doesn't scream "I'm 30, divorced, with two kids!" My only concern is the two passenger back seat; I'm used to seating five. Is the four seat config the only one available? Am I in this "niche"? Should I do something really diferent and get this sexy box? (Sorry that's the divorce talking)
I would suggest you be very certain you want to deal with the quirks of the Element.
You have kids, which I assume you'll have part of the time. You need to decide if the suicide rear doors are something you will want to deal with. Every time you want to let the kids out of the back seat, you will have to get out of the car.
You're stuck with the current seat configuration... that's how it's designed.
This vehicle would be great for me and my wife... we have no kids and a couple of dogs, and only occasionally carry rear seat passengers. I think the suicide doors are way cool, and I like how the rear seats fold. However, if I had to put kids in the back of the car, I would probably be looking at a CR-V.
Hey, if you're single again, aren't you supposed to be shopping for a sexy coupe? ;^)
Dindak - Would you consider the five door hatch market to be considered a "niche"? Vehicles like the Civic over in the UK and JDM markets. I'm not talking about the AWD SUV-wanna be wagons like the Forester, RAV4, and CR-V. Not the sport wagons like the Matrix, Vibe, and Protege. I mean honest to goodness hatchbacks. Is that a niche vehicle?
hatch backs are awesome didn't much care for them untill I stumbled into mine but its great really useful plus I can park anywhere and its so useful I wish honda had brought the 5 door civic hatch here though. A 2 door vehicle is only truly suited for people with no kids though I get by with it but 4 doors would be soo much easier I am especially glad I have no infant
I know if element did not at least have the suicide doors I would not look at it as I have totally turned my nose up at coupes
Looks are subjective. My wife found the Matrix extremely ugly and refused to even test drive it. I like it. The Beetle is way to cute for me. The Cooper is cool but it's a toy.
The WRX was a hit, but lots of people hate the bug-eye look. Now that Subaru has a face-lift ready, people say it's less unique!
Element looks as bad as the Aztek to you, that's the key. I think it's worlds better. I'm sure every opinion will vary.
I don't think Subaru has gone mainstream, they're as quirky as ever. Have you seen the Baja?
I guess what was a niche (AWD wagons) has now become a full blown segment. Subaru has not changed, but the market has, everyone has AWD wagons now.
diploid: actually that's wrong, AMC was WAY behind Subaru, who had a raised AWD wagon way, way back in 1972. Here it is:
The founder of Subaru of America was none other than Malcolm Bricklin, of Yugo fame. I think the first Subarus came over in the '60s. The had the dubious distinction of making the cover of Consumer Reports...along with the word "UNACCEPTABLE". Subaru came a long way in a short time.
I know, isn't that hilarious? It's the one business venture that he started that was profitable. He's trying to bring yet another eastern european car company over here, which will surely fail.
You're probably thinking of the 360. Then again, BMW had its Isetta, and some early Hondas basically had motorcycle engines. Didn't some even have chain drive instead of driveshafts?
I believe actually that neither AMC nor the subaru mentioned above was AWD, rather they were 4wd. AWD wasn't really introduced til the mid-eighties IIRC.
Nope, those are sport wagons. And some even come with AWD. I'm talking about basic economy cars with five doors.
Try the PT Cruiser. Yet they are selling betweeen 12-15K per month. Just because sales are hot, does not mean it isn't a niche. The Aerio might be another.
Comments
Honda Rolls Out New SUV Truck, Element (Newsday.com)
Steve, Host
Don't laugh--the Nissan Murano uses a JATCO CVT that can absorb 240 bhp and also is fully compatible with all-wheel drive. I think Honda should seriously look at putting in the JATCO CVT on the Element, which will probably result in better acceleration and possibly better overall fuel economy.
The biggest complaint I have read about seems to be slow acceleration with the automatic. The FWD 5 speed is quick enough at 0-60 8.1 seconds, but reviews say the automatics are over 10 seconds and an AWD automatic might be slower still.
And on the subject of cargo room compared to sedans, to me it looks like Element will gobble up more baggage than the trunk of almost any car with the rear seats up. This picture, although from a not so perfect angle, gives a good idea of the room behind the seats. Compare the location of the seatbacks and the span of the rear window glass.
I haven't seen an photos taken at a clear angle.
I do applaud Honda's decision to make a vehicle with more Utility than Sport. I hope the future brings more squarish vehicles with decent interior space and smaller engines and less compact car soap bars with large v6's and mediocre gas mileage.
Personally, I think the utility aspects of this buggy have been way overhyped. It will be good for hauling people or gear but not both.
This is a niche vehicle. It isn't marketed toward "many people". It's an alternative to the ordinary mainstream (high volume) vehicle. That's why they are only planning on producing 50K units. By using many components from the CR-V and Accord, Honda is keeping the overhead under control. They won't have to sell 120K per year in order to turn a profit.
Tpat - Ditto. The Element is an either/or proposition. Toting both people and stuff is not its bailiwick. The CR-V is the better choice for that sort of use. Soon we may have the Latitude as another option.
Now if they can only change the dealer's attitude on ALL models...
You don't have to be Gen Y to feel that way.
-juice
So much 'meat' in the side is door. No B-pillar.
Has Honda conducted any tests of their own?
Just because a B-pillar isn't fixed doesn't mean it's less sturdy. The doors on Fort Knox open but they are probably stronger than most walls.
-juice
I wouldn't expect the independent tests to be conducted anytime soon though. It usually takes a while for the IIHS and NHTSA to acquire a vehicle, test it, and sort the data.
I'd be curious to know how much better it does in the IIHS bumper basher, since that was the CR-V's only weakness in all of IIHS' tests. The spare is inside, so it should suffer less damage.
-juice
Side Cargo Doors:
'The cargo doors are designed for maximum utility and easy load-in with a best-in-class opening size of 55.5 inches. Because the Element does not have a B-pillar (the pillar mounted vertically between the top and the bottom of the vehicle in the middle) loading boxes and other bulky items is much easier than a traditional four- or two-door design. From a safety standpoint, the deletion of the B-pillar is compensated for with a reinforced vertical beam in the structure of the rear door, reinforced lower side sills, and floor and roof cross members. When shut, the base of the doors connect tightly to the body side sill with a hook and catcher system. Overall, the design is anticipated to achieve a five-star side-impact rating, the highest possible from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
The side cargo doors feature an "interlock" safety lever to insure that the front doors always open first. Rear passengers can reach forward and open the front door to exit the vehicle if nobody is in the passenger seat. All seat belts have been specially construced into the design of the vehicle to not interfere with door functionality The front doors offer 3-position opening, and can reach an opening angle of up to 78 degrees. The rear doors use a forged steel gooseneck hinge and can open at an angle up to 90 degrees.'
Or Honda's WRX...
Or Honda's Beetle...
Or Honda's Forester...
There are plenty of niche vehicles out there. Some are pretty darn successful.
Baja's November sales were down. It can be tough for some niche vehicles, too. But you gotta take some risks, I guess. Subaru is doing a cloth version for cheap, and will have a turbo next summer.
Element will hurt Baja further, because I think the same extroverted customers will begin shopping that vehicle.
-juice
IMO, the Element looks as bad as the Aztek. Sorry.
In terms of functionality, it looks good but I suspect gimmick as it doesn't do much a mini van can't.
I'm not sure what that has to do with being a niche vehicle, though. Niche vehicles are designs that are intended to reach small markets which other mainstream cars do not fill. Subaru has made a living exploiting the niche for AWD wagons, while the rest of the industry made SUVs.
The greatest benefit to competing in a niche is that there is no competition. Or very little anyway. It's also a way to introduce new buyers to the brand. The greatest problem is finding a niche that has a decent market. Subaru's Outback did that. I think the Pontiac Aztek did as well. They just bungled the execution.
I'd be the first to say that the Element is a van not an SUV. However, it does one big thing that a minivan does not...
It avoids the label, "mommy-mobile".
Actually, I think Subaru is MORE of a niche company now than it was in, say, 1994. I mean, consider:
Baja: strange-looking combo of a car and pickup
Impreza WRX: $25,000 oddly-styled compact car with loads of horsepower
I'm not saying those are bad vehicles, just that they are clearly not mainstream. An argument could be made for the Legacy and Forester being "normal cars", but remember what a 1994 Legacy and a 1994 Impreza were like? Much more mainstream (boring, some might say).
-Andrew L
I really feel for this poor guy
he cant even afford an apartment now that he's bought an element ex
maybe after he gets back on his feet (in about 10 years) he can go back to college after paying his element off. and finish (or start) his education
hopefully he can get some people to donate a bit of pocket change for a can of pinto beans by performing on his bongos
any one else think a can of lucks pinto beans (with a serrated lid popped open) would look more at home on his dash instead of the hula dancer?
well at least he has his own "home" theater
and a hearty box of wheaties that he can call his mom to thank her for if he has enough change left after buying a can of lucks
I wonder if the tire tool can double as a can opener?
-mike
You have kids, which I assume you'll have part of the time. You need to decide if the suicide rear doors are something you will want to deal with. Every time you want to let the kids out of the back seat, you will have to get out of the car.
You're stuck with the current seat configuration... that's how it's designed.
This vehicle would be great for me and my wife... we have no kids and a couple of dogs, and only occasionally carry rear seat passengers. I think the suicide doors are way cool, and I like how the rear seats fold. However, if I had to put kids in the back of the car, I would probably be looking at a CR-V.
Hey, if you're single again, aren't you supposed to be shopping for a sexy coupe? ;^)
but its great really useful plus I can park anywhere and its so useful
I wish honda had brought the 5 door civic hatch here though. A 2 door vehicle is only truly suited for people with no kids
though I get by with it but 4 doors would be soo much easier
I am especially glad I have no infant
I know if element did not at least have the suicide doors I would not look at it
as I have totally turned my nose up at coupes
The WRX was a hit, but lots of people hate the bug-eye look. Now that Subaru has a face-lift ready, people say it's less unique!
Element looks as bad as the Aztek to you, that's the key. I think it's worlds better. I'm sure every opinion will vary.
I don't think Subaru has gone mainstream, they're as quirky as ever. Have you seen the Baja?
I guess what was a niche (AWD wagons) has now become a full blown segment. Subaru has not changed, but the market has, everyone has AWD wagons now.
diploid: actually that's wrong, AMC was WAY behind Subaru, who had a raised AWD wagon way, way back in 1972. Here it is:
-juice
The founder of Subaru of America was none other than Malcolm Bricklin, of Yugo fame. I think the first Subarus came over in the '60s. The had the dubious distinction of making the cover of Consumer Reports...along with the word "UNACCEPTABLE". Subaru came a long way in a short time.
-Andrew L
You're probably thinking of the 360. Then again, BMW had its Isetta, and some early Hondas basically had motorcycle engines. Didn't some even have chain drive instead of driveshafts?
-juice
-mike
That's correct, Mike. Both the Subaru GL and the AMC (half decade later) were true-blue 4WD, and both even had low ranges.
-juice
Try the PT Cruiser. Yet they are selling betweeen 12-15K per month. Just because sales are hot, does not mean it isn't a niche. The Aerio might be another.