That'd be great if Nissan of N.A. brings it here but it could possibly be one coming up fom Mexico. They sell it down there. Just leave us the clunky gas-guzzling X-Terra. LOL.
Dang! Motor Trend just clocked the CR-V (manual) at 8.1 seconds from 0-60. With 200+ horsies, it would probably run it in the low or mid 7's. That's overkill. There are more important things to work on.
More power gives greater potential for towing, but not if the engine isn't the limiting factor. A 200 hp CR-V or Element is still limited by its tires, suspension, transmission, brakes, chassis, and lawyers.
Passing times are not really a problem for the CR-V. We have yet to see if they will be for the heavier Element. Sounds like spending money to fix a problem that doesn't need fixing.
The reality is, most folks want V6s and turbos so they can thump their chests and point at the badges on the car. Oh, sure. That'll sell cars. No question about it. But I still think Honda has better things to do.
You don't see too many carmakers just shoehorning a bigger engine in and turning it loose on the unsuspecting buying public. In today's litigious environment, doing so would spell disaster for any brand.
It's general engineering practice to upgrade all the components you mentioned (minus the skunks) when adding more power underhood.
More power=chest-thumping? Gee, I always thought more power made for a more flexible vehicle. Silly me.
This is from an article from auto world that I saw linked on vtec.net:
"Saturn Corp. is the only General Motors Corp. unit that will use engines and transmissions supplied by Honda Motor Co. Ltd., Ward's learns.
The Saturn Vue will be the sole GM product to use the ultra-low emissions-vehicle-certified 3.5L DOHC V-6, beginning with '04 models. Volumes call for 50,000 units annually for the 5-year life of the contract.
Vue's current GM-made 3L DOHC V-6 will be replaced with the Honda engine and a Honda 5-speed automatic transmission. The Vue will retain its GM-made 2.2L DOHC I-4 as its base engine."
It sure makes one wonder why honda would supply a chief competitor of one of their more popular vehicles (cr-v) an engine and transmission that would surpass the engine in their current vehicle
"It sure makes one wonder why honda would supply a chief competitor of one of their more popular vehicles (cr-v) an engine and transmission that would surpass the engine in their current vehicle"
Note, the contract calls for only 50,000 units. And also consider that Honda is getting a chunk of the profits. I'm sure the profit margin is much lower, but Honda would be making money on two cars in the same segment.
I believe Honda is trading those V6 engines for diesel engines being supplied by GM's affilitate Isuzu to Honda in Europe. Honda is developing their own diesel engines, but not soon enough. Meanwhile, their sales are getting killed in Europe for lack of diesel engines.
Back to the Element. It will sell, because it is a Honda and because it is different than what's out there. But the Element will cannibalize sales of the CR-V, IMO and also is likely to be a lot noisier than the CR-V. Personally, the Honda Stream/Latitude is more to my liking; hopefully, the Latitude will be free of road noise.
"what is the chief reason people bought a ford escape over a crv?"
1) "patrionism" 2) V-6
I am also tempted to say lift-up tailgate without a spare hanging from it, but just look at how the Liberty sells. Even before 0% financing it was a hot seller.
Diploid, Honda employs many americans, in factories and their marketing division, oh and lets not forget the dealers. In addition to this, most of the Ford parts are foreign.
But most american's are either brain washed or just plain dumb and don't realize that there are no more "american" car companies just like there are no more "foreign" car companies.
"what is the chief reason people bought a ford escape over a crv?" - Chris777
A better question might be, "What is the chief reason people bought a CR-V over the Escape?"
So far, the CR-V has sold more units this year than another other vehicle in the small SUV class. That includes the Escape, Liberty, and Vue; all are fresh new vehicles and offer V-6 models. It looks like they underestimated the 4 cyl side of the market. FWIW, Ford is fixing their 4 cyl woes by bumping Ztec and replacing it with a 2.3L from the Ranger.
I agree with Strager on a few things. Honda needs to get a decent diesel into the CR-V for European use. That's one of those more-important-than-an-Acura things I was talking about earlier. And the Element will cut into the CR-V's sales. It will however, allow Honda to move the CR-V slightly upscale and into pricier waters (without making it an Acura).
Perhaps that 2.2 liter common rail turbo diesel to be used in 2003 Euro Accord will be it. This happens to be Honda's first homegrown diesel engine. Power rating is quite good, at 140 HP/245 lb.-ft. The engine was showcased at 2001 Tokyo Motor Show.
I like varmint's idea of moving the CR-V upscale and slotting the Element beneath it in the lineup.
240hp 3.5l V6 in the Vue? With a 5 speed auto? Man, that will lead the class in power and torque. I'm still not convinced the plastic side panels offer enough crash protection, and the seats felt too spongy to me, but I'd have to test drive one just to feel it.
I also can't believe Honda will have enough capacity to sell 50k engines to GM, when the Pilot just arrive and has wait lists.
how confident are you folks that the element will arrive in the 16-21 k price range honda has predicted?
as well as how much are you willing to pay for it and for what features/trim?
also considering hondas current offerings and price ranges on vehicles many price ranges over lap the civic overlaps the accord
however the crv does not overlap the pilot leaving room for a 2k price increase about the same as the price difference between a 4 cyll and 6 cyll accord it would make a nice addition and hopefully the broader selection would make prices cheaper on lower end models like civic and element
Does it say that it's the 3.5L from the Pilot/Ody? It could be the 3.5L from the RL (225hp). Or it might just be a 3.5L block with whatever breather hardware GM decides to bolt unto it. Who knows what that might change?
Chris77 - I'm guessing that the numbers are correct, but only technically speaking. It's likely that the base Element will come in at $16,999 and the top of the line at $21,999. So 17-22 is a more real world figure. Add destination charges to that, as well.
My concern with overlap is how the Element will overlap the Latitude.
You know, I never had a problem with the alpha character name for the CR-V, but I kinda like these new names Honda has been issuing.
Subaru Baja is coming very soon and marketed to the same people as the Element. It has real 4WD and could sleep 4 with a tent in back. Could take a load of manure also.
How about a forum with Element vs Baja? Or better yet Element vs Baja vs Aztec vs bbx vs Matrix. Or Gen Y vehicles. Or vehicles from the cladding fan club. Cladding-R-Us. Conference of cladding. Designers who like cladding.
I doubt it, cause the real gen Y can afford a 16K Element. It can't, however, afford a Baja with a base price of $23,995 - which would cost even more than the most expensive Element.
Baja's price is actually lower than expected. An equivalent Outback Limited costs $2 grand more.
You gotta keep in mind it comes standard with AWD, ABS, leather, moonroof, heated seats, roof rack, 6CD changer, cruise, keyless, power everything, etc.
So a loaded Element, at $21k if that ends up being accurate, will still not be as well equipped as even a stripped down, base Baja.
But I see the demographics differently. Element buyers will be younger, IMO. And despite Honda targeting males, I bet the Baja has even more male buyers.
Sorry for the major spam attack, but this one kinda sounds like fun...
A contact of ours is looking for a group of luxury SUV enthusiasts who would be willing to come to Irvine, CA August 24th from 9am to 3pm for a test drive, focus group and lunch. Participants will be compensated for their time. If you are interested in participating in this event, please send an email with your contact information as well as the model vehicle you drive to: chotti@earthlink.net. Thanks for your consideration!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Been away for a few weeks on a 5000 km road trip to Canada's east coast & back........got a lot of catching up to do! The more I look at the Element, the more I'm starting to like it. It may just suit us when we are ready to buy in 3 years.
However, CR-V and Latitude are also alternatives
we're keeping in mind. And I just read about VW's
"Touran", a Golf-based Stream/Latitude/Zafira competitor.....no word on whether it's coming here though.
Anyway, back to the Element....Varmint, does anyone have actual dimensions yet? How does it compare with the CR-V? You allude to it being heavier, although the vehicle looks shorter overall. What I really want, after seeing tons of them down east, is a spiritual successor to VW's Microbus camper (yeah, I know they still make Eurovan campers but they cost about 60 grand up here.) Honda, how about a camper version of the Element, complete with pop up roof tent (accessible through the big hole you left in the roof!)For sleeping down below, the current "convert the seats into a bed" option doesn't look too comfortable....I'd probably just flip the seats up to the sides and put an airbed in....think a double mattress would fit? How about an "Aztec-like" tent option as well? Or is that too "Aztec-like"?! Anyway, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Suzuki or Nissan.....there's probably some
of your domestic models that would also be easily adaptable to a VW-Style Camper.....price it reasonably and give it descent gas mileage & performance. After all, all those VW's still on the road aren't going to last forever!
Touran reminds me of the first Odyssey. I bet it stays in Europe, US has the Jetta wagon already.
Just read a Baja review in the Washington Times, generally favorable, and they reminded me of a couple of other extras: rear LSD and 16" alloys are standard.
I guess they could de-content one to compete more directly with the Element, but I doubt they will given their efforts to move upscale.
this is from a honda press release on vtec.net that apparently scooped honda themselves? (I didnt see it on the official site)
"Element is available in two trim levels, the entry DX and the fully-loaded EX. The EX models add alloy wheels, ABS, air conditioning, cruise control, power mirrors, audio system and more. "
"EX models features waterproof material on the front and rear bucket seats (front seat only on DX models)."
"The rear seats also lay flat to form a bed with the front seats, or can be removed entirely"
"A large rear skylight (on 4WD models) tilts or removes completely and stores inside the vehicle."
"split rear tailgate bottom opens down - creating room for two to sit - while the upper part of the tailgate opens up and creates a canopy. "
"a 4-speed automatic or a 5-speed manual transmission"
"Real Time 4WD(TM) system is available on both DX and EX models, and 16-inch wheels are standard. "
some interesting and possibly downbeat info if this is indeed a legitimate press release
it would be pretty sweet if you could take the rear seats out entirely and haul stuff if needed
It looks like the 5 speed auto was just a rumor
16 inchers will be nice
I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't want to have to shell out 21k on this thing to get decent options
if element will only ring in at 2 thousand less than a 2wd lx crv why doesn't honda just offer a dx crv? (if element ends up being $16900 with automatic)
i mean a 4wd dx would be cool but separate charges on a/c?
i don't care for matrix but if honda expects this thing to sell at least to myself
I want a dx with auto, a/c, cruise, and power windows and locks. if this cannot be had for around 17 at the most I'm not going to fool with it
its like an accord and a civic why buy a civic if the price is the same?
Chris, I don't think the Element will be the downgrade that you are making it out to be. The Element is the CRV with a different frame and a utility interior where you can hose it down. If they offered waterproof seats in the CRV and a hosable floor I would consider it an ugrade and I would call it an EX-Outdoor or something. It is nothing like comparing the Accord to the Civic.
Comments
http://www.nissan.co.jp/X-TRAIL/T30/0110/INTERIOR/index.html
I hate that center mounted console.
-juice
More power=higher towing/cargo limit and better/safer passing at highway speeds
Passing times are not really a problem for the CR-V. We have yet to see if they will be for the heavier Element. Sounds like spending money to fix a problem that doesn't need fixing.
The reality is, most folks want V6s and turbos so they can thump their chests and point at the badges on the car. Oh, sure. That'll sell cars. No question about it. But I still think Honda has better things to do.
It definitely gets the job done, though. In fact I bet Honda comes out with a 200hp variation only with the next generation CR-V.
-juice
It's general engineering practice to upgrade all the components you mentioned (minus the skunks) when adding more power underhood.
More power=chest-thumping? Gee, I always thought more power made for a more flexible vehicle. Silly me.
What you said....exactly.
You represent the opinions of lots of us, and with more tech savvy, & new info.
Don't stop...;-)
Toss in leather and I bet they'd sell quite well for about $25-26 grand. Remember - loaded up Libertys hit $28-30 grand easily.
-juice
"Saturn Corp. is the only General Motors Corp. unit that will use engines and transmissions supplied by Honda Motor Co. Ltd., Ward's learns.
The Saturn Vue will be the sole GM product to use the ultra-low emissions-vehicle-certified 3.5L DOHC V-6, beginning with '04 models. Volumes call for 50,000 units annually for the 5-year life of the contract.
Vue's current GM-made 3L DOHC V-6 will be replaced with the Honda engine and a Honda 5-speed automatic transmission. The Vue will retain its GM-made 2.2L DOHC I-4 as its base engine."
It sure makes one wonder why honda would supply a chief competitor of one of their more popular vehicles (cr-v) an engine and transmission that would surpass the engine in their current vehicle
unless........
Note, the contract calls for only 50,000 units. And also consider that Honda is getting a chunk of the profits. I'm sure the profit margin is much lower, but Honda would be making money on two cars in the same segment.
Back to the Element. It will sell, because it is a Honda and because it is different than what's out there. But the Element will cannibalize sales of the CR-V, IMO and also is likely to be a lot noisier than the CR-V. Personally, the Honda Stream/Latitude is more to my liking; hopefully, the Latitude will be free of road noise.
1) "patrionism"
2) V-6
I am also tempted to say lift-up tailgate without a spare hanging from it, but just look at how the Liberty sells. Even before 0% financing it was a hot seller.
-mike
In politics, it has been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel! :-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
A better question might be, "What is the chief reason people bought a CR-V over the Escape?"
So far, the CR-V has sold more units this year than another other vehicle in the small SUV class. That includes the Escape, Liberty, and Vue; all are fresh new vehicles and offer V-6 models. It looks like they underestimated the 4 cyl side of the market. FWIW, Ford is fixing their 4 cyl woes by bumping Ztec and replacing it with a 2.3L from the Ranger.
I agree with Strager on a few things. Honda needs to get a decent diesel into the CR-V for European use. That's one of those more-important-than-an-Acura things I was talking about earlier. And the Element will cut into the CR-V's sales. It will however, allow Honda to move the CR-V slightly upscale and into pricier waters (without making it an Acura).
I like that definition of "patriotism"! LOL
The engine was showcased at 2001 Tokyo Motor Show.
240hp 3.5l V6 in the Vue? With a 5 speed auto? Man, that will lead the class in power and torque. I'm still not convinced the plastic side panels offer enough crash protection, and the seats felt too spongy to me, but I'd have to test drive one just to feel it.
I also can't believe Honda will have enough capacity to sell 50k engines to GM, when the Pilot just arrive and has wait lists.
-juice
Lots of built-in profit for Honda, as well.
-juice
as well as how much are you willing to pay for it and for what features/trim?
also considering hondas current offerings and price ranges on vehicles many price ranges over lap the civic overlaps the accord
however the crv does not overlap the pilot leaving room for a 2k price increase about the same as the price difference between a 4 cyll and 6 cyll accord it would make a nice addition
and hopefully the broader selection would make prices cheaper on lower end models like civic and element
Besides, the Liberty already uses a 3.7L V-6. It's also selling quite well, so perhaps GM thinks that more power=more sales.
Chris77 - I'm guessing that the numbers are correct, but only technically speaking. It's likely that the base Element will come in at $16,999 and the top of the line at $21,999. So 17-22 is a more real world figure. Add destination charges to that, as well.
My concern with overlap is how the Element will overlap the Latitude.
You know, I never had a problem with the alpha character name for the CR-V, but I kinda like these new names Honda has been issuing.
Maybe they could give the next CR-V a name? They could just use "Runabout".
On 2nd thought, nah.
-juice
How about a forum with Element vs Baja? Or better yet Element vs Baja vs Aztec vs bbx vs Matrix. Or Gen Y vehicles. Or vehicles from the cladding fan club. Cladding-R-Us. Conference of cladding. Designers who like cladding.
-mike
You gotta keep in mind it comes standard with AWD, ABS, leather, moonroof, heated seats, roof rack, 6CD changer, cruise, keyless, power everything, etc.
So a loaded Element, at $21k if that ends up being accurate, will still not be as well equipped as even a stripped down, base Baja.
But I see the demographics differently. Element buyers will be younger, IMO. And despite Honda targeting males, I bet the Baja has even more male buyers.
-juice
-mike
My guess is street prices will not be too far from a loaded up Element, both around $21-22k.
-juice
LOL I'm sure it would be well attended.
J/K - I know some people who legitimately own WRX's, but they're definitely not under 23 years old, which I believe is the cut off age for gen Y.
A contact of ours is looking for a group of luxury SUV enthusiasts who would be willing to come to Irvine, CA August 24th from 9am to 3pm for a test drive, focus group and lunch. Participants will be compensated for their time. If you are interested in participating in this event, please send an email with your contact information as well as the model vehicle you drive to: chotti@earthlink.net.
Thanks for your consideration!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
However, CR-V and Latitude are also alternatives
we're keeping in mind. And I just read about VW's
"Touran", a Golf-based Stream/Latitude/Zafira competitor.....no word on whether it's coming here though.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020816-2.htm
Anyway, back to the Element....Varmint, does anyone have actual dimensions yet? How does it compare with the CR-V? You allude to it being heavier, although the vehicle looks shorter overall. What I really want, after seeing tons of them down east, is a spiritual successor to VW's Microbus camper (yeah, I know they still make Eurovan campers but they cost about 60 grand up here.) Honda, how about a camper version of the Element, complete with pop up roof tent (accessible through the big hole you left in the roof!)For sleeping down below, the current "convert the seats into a bed" option doesn't look too comfortable....I'd probably just flip the seats up to the sides and put an airbed in....think a double mattress would fit? How about an "Aztec-like" tent option as well? Or is that too "Aztec-like"?! Anyway, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Suzuki or Nissan.....there's probably some
of your domestic models that would also be easily adaptable to a VW-Style Camper.....price it reasonably and give it descent gas mileage & performance. After all, all those VW's still on the road aren't going to last forever!
Touran reminds me of the first Odyssey. I bet it stays in Europe, US has the Jetta wagon already.
Just read a Baja review in the Washington Times, generally favorable, and they reminded me of a couple of other extras: rear LSD and 16" alloys are standard.
I guess they could de-content one to compete more directly with the Element, but I doubt they will given their efforts to move upscale.
-juice
I would have signed up already but Kirstie only said
Participants will be compensated for their time.
and nothing about air fare! Now I suppose I could argue that my time spent in airports is very valuable!
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
"Element is available in two trim levels, the entry DX and the fully-loaded EX. The EX models add alloy wheels, ABS, air conditioning, cruise control, power mirrors, audio system and more. "
"EX models features waterproof material on the front and rear bucket seats (front seat only on DX models)."
"The rear seats also lay flat to form a bed with the front seats, or can be removed entirely"
"A large rear skylight (on 4WD models) tilts or removes completely and stores inside the vehicle."
"split rear tailgate bottom opens down - creating room for two to sit - while the upper part of the tailgate opens up and creates a canopy. "
"a 4-speed automatic or a 5-speed manual transmission"
"Real Time 4WD(TM) system is available on both DX and EX models, and 16-inch wheels are standard. "
some interesting and possibly downbeat info if this is indeed a legitimate press release
it would be pretty sweet if you could take the rear seats out entirely and haul stuff if needed
It looks like the 5 speed auto was just a rumor
16 inchers will be nice
I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't want to have to shell out 21k on this thing to get decent options
if element will only ring in at 2 thousand less than a 2wd lx crv why doesn't honda just offer a dx crv? (if element ends up being $16900 with automatic)
i mean a 4wd dx would be cool but separate charges on a/c?
i don't care for matrix but if honda expects this thing to sell at least to myself
I want a dx with auto, a/c, cruise, and power windows and locks. if this cannot be had for around 17 at the most I'm not going to fool with it
its like an accord and a civic why buy a civic if the price is the same?
I don't think the Element will be the downgrade that you are making it out to be. The Element is the CRV with a different frame and a utility interior where you can hose it down. If they offered waterproof seats in the CRV and a hosable floor I would consider it an ugrade and I would call it an EX-Outdoor or something. It is nothing like comparing the Accord to the Civic.