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"Is gross speeding a reason to expect others to clear the left lane for you?"
First of all, "gross speeding" is a matter of your own personal concept of what's okay and what isn't. What you consider to be "gross speeding" might be my idea of "keeping up with the flow of traffic". A lot of it is just perception. Hint, if you find yourself surrounded by 4 or 5 "gross speeders", you just might be the problem . In fact, one might call you a "gross impeder".
"You post is hard to read because there are no spaces. Paragraphs are your friend."
My bad. I guess that makes me wrong.
"I get a sense in your post that you get angry when others don't do what you believe they should do."
Quite the contrary. I live most of my life in the center lane doing about 70 - 75. If and when I come across someone doing 65 in the center lane (not a problem in my book), I move to the left lane to pass. If the person in the left lane is also doing 65, then I have a problem. That's not what the left lane is for, and they are impeding the natural flow of traffic. This tends to aggravate the rest of the drivers on the road, which quickly escalates into group aggression. That's when I, personally, get frustrated (and nervous). By being in their own little world, they have turned the situation into a dangerous one. Given the choice, I'd have them removed from the road long before the people who wish to go 10 - 15 MPH faster than me. They (the speeders) don't bother me. They're predictable, they're almost always paying attention (unlike the LLC), and they're not hindering anyone else.
"It's that anger that I often see in the left lane dominators."
Wow... you sure have me clocked after reading a few posts. 1: I'm not a left lane dominator. I use it to pass. 2: I don't get angry on the road except under extreme circumstances. I can think of 5 or 6 times in the 11 years I've been driving that I've actually been "angry", and it was because someone nearly killed me.
"Typically it's heavy traffic in all 3 lanes, left lane dominator expects a car in left lane to get out of his way so he can move up 150 feet and make the next car in the lane move over and so on down the road."
That might be what's typical for you, but don't project your daily experiences onto me, and then procede to judge me by them. That's not typical in my area. The left lane in my area is rarely heavy. When it is, it's usually because of someone clogging it up going 65MPH about 6 cars up ahead. In front of them, it's usually open road. This is typical FOR ME.
"All this and he gains maybe half a mile in 15 miles of traffic into Cincy."
Now, regardless of each of our individual road conditions, people's motivations should not be your concern, nor should their expected benefit of speeding be your concern. Your concern should be driving safely, predictably, and in a manner compatible with other drivers around you. Going 65MPH in the fast lane might be breaking the law, but far more important is the fact that it's NOT predictable, NOT safe, and NOT compatible with the driving characteristics of the people with whom you share the road.
Something I see discussed frequently is the breaking of two laws. I'm going to refer to this as "BOTL". One guy wants to speed. Another guy wants to sit in the left lane for any number of reasons (because he "can", because he wants to impose the speed limit, because he's situationally unaware, etc). Regardless, there is a law being broken by both parties. Let's face the facts, folks: NO ONE obeys ALL of the laws on the road. Not even the cops. Frankly, it would be impossible to do so... in some situations, it would even be dangerous to do so. That said, we need to examine the effects of these two laws broken. The speeder might be breaking a law, but unless he cannot control his vehicle under the given conditions (weather, heavy traffic, etc), he's not really affecting anyone. Obviously there's a limit to this, but it's safe to say it's above 65MPH. Now, the other guy who's sitting in the left lane at 65MPH, is also breaking a law. A cop could care less that he's going the speed limit. His actions are actually affecting other drivers and are DANGEROUS. In previous postings in this very thread, actual police officers have written that they (and their blue bretheren) have a higher tolerance for speeders than they do for LLC's for the very reasons I've outlined.
Frankly, that's all the evidence I need to justify my position. Call me stubborn. I can live with that.
would be when one car is going significantly above the flow of traffic. For instance, if traffic is moving along at 70-75 but one yahoo decides to weave through at 95-100, then I'd call that "gross speeding"
But then, out on a desolate stretch of highway in the desert where you can see for 5 miles, 95-100 might not be a big deal. It's all going to depend on the road, weather/lighting conditions, visibility, traffic patterns, etc.
But basically, my stand on the issue is that if you want to go slower than the flow of traffic, and you don't have a left turn coming up anytime soon, you simply don't need to be in the left lane.
"For instance, if traffic is moving along at 70-75 but one yahoo decides to weave through at 95-100, then I'd call that "gross speeding""
EXCELLENT point, and I wholeheartedly agree. For the same reasons that LLCs are dangerous, so is someone who is travelling 95MPH in traffic that is going 75MPH. In this case, the speeder is being very dangerous in that he's very unpredictable relative to the rest of traffic, and his driving is not compatible with current conditions.
I really think that this is a key concept that people either forget or simply cannot understand. Within reason ("reason" defined as the local law enforcement's tolerance, as well as weather conditions, traffic conditions, etc), the speed limit isn't so much set by the signs on the side of the road as it is by traffic. If the speed limit is 65MPH, traffic is moderate, weather is good, and traffic is cruising at 75MPH, you can bet that no one is getting pulled over. Now if someone enters the picture at 65MPH, they have changed the scenery dramatically. Even if they just sit in the far right lane, they're still causing a minor problem if everyone else in the right lane was going 75MPH. Now they all have to pass or hit the breaks. All of this creates problems in the other lanes. You can certainly see the chain reaction taking place here... and this is just with someone doing this in the far right lane (but not keeping up with traffic). When you enter a highway, it is your responsibility to match the current driving conditions on the road. If you aren't comfortable with that, you shouldn't be there.
Think about the effects when this person decides to cross 3 lanes into the far left. Now you have mayhem and a bunch of people jammed up with no lane to pass in (safely).
One of the most important rules about highway driving is keeping up with traffic, and not impeding the flow of faster traffic in the left lane(s). Damn the speed limit signs if traffic is going 10MPH faster. Ask any cop; they'll agree.
Now, like Andre pointed out, if the flow of traffic is 65MPH and traffic is *actually* heavy in all lanes, and some twit is weaving in and out at 85MPH, there's a big problem. I'll grin if I stumble upon him a few miles up the road where he's parked on his roof in a ditch against against a sewer drainpipe.
I never intended to write a blank check for speeders... it's all contingent on the current conditions, courtesy, and safety.
Nope. Just makes you a whole lot easier to read this time. Thanks.
Your profile doesn't indicate in what area of the country you drive. Different areas see different patterns of driver behavior.
>he's not really affecting anyone
Tongue in cheek: When I get stopped for speeding, I'll tell the officer that I'm not really affecting anyone..., so you don't need to give me a ticket.
I'm curious what area your interstate driving is in. I found DC area to be pushy but not brazen in their driving. I found Philly morning traffic on the Scuykill sp? Freeway to downtown to be surprisingly courteous. Chicago was nasty.
"Nope. Just makes you a whole lot easier to read this time. Thanks."
Honestly, I could have sworn I used paragraphs the first time... sorry about that.
"Your profile doesn't indicate in what area of the country you drive. Different areas see different patterns of driver behavior."
I live in Hilliard, Ohio and work in Westerville, Ohio. These are to suburbs of Columbus, Ohio, which is surrounded by the 270 outerbelt. Another freeway, 315, cuts the city in half. 71 and 70 both pass through Columbus and intersect 270 in two places. Traffic conditions in certain areas are rough at certain times. 315, for example, is a nightmare at rush hour. 270 has its bottlenecks, but the 20 mile stretch that I drive is pretty good at 7:00 in the morning when I go to work and 4:30 when I go home. The major problems
Since I only travel 270, I'll just refer to that. Traffic in the far right lane is usually traveling 60MPH - 65MPH. The center lane is usually anywhere between 65MPH and 75MPH. Conjestion in this lane is moderate, while conjestion in the right lane is usually rather heavy due to very frequent exits and entrances. The left lane usually travels between 80MPH and 85MPH. These are speeds that keep up with traffic in that given lane. To get a speeding ticket on 270 at these times of day, you need to be hauling and you need to be isolated. 85MPH is 20 over the limit, but if that's what traffic is doing, you're not getting a ticket. If I'm late to work, I'll do 85MPH and use the left lane as necessary (I pass two cops daily), and my first and last speeding ticket was 40MPH in a residential zone when I was 17.
"Tongue in cheek: When I get stopped for speeding, I'll tell the officer that I'm not really affecting anyone..., so you don't need to give me a ticket."
Well, like I said: it's relative . If you're alone in the left lane on 270 doing 90MPH and the center lane is doing 70MPH, you're getting a ticket... no question.
There are numerous speed traps on 270... I go through 2 of them on my way to and from work. The people that get pulled over are the ones who are not matching the flow of traffic, either by going to slow or going to fast. I may be speeding at 85MPH, but if that's the flow of traffic, the cop isn't going to look at me twice. He's waiting for the guy going 95MPH.
On a side note, I've driven in quite a few cities around the country and in Canada. By far, without a doubt, the worst place I've ever encountered in Boston. I've never been so frightened on the road in my life. I was actually a danger to the other drivers because I could not adjust to their conditions. I tried it twice, and used cabs thereafter. Traffic won, I won, and the cabbie won. Chicago wasn't fun, but it was manageable. Columbus driving isn't so much "bad" as it is "nasty". I don't honk my horn unless I have to wake someone from a coma. People have been killed for it around here.
if you're out-of-state they're more likely to pull you over. For instance, back in 2001 I got pulled over in Louisiana for doing 82 in a 70. Sounds extreme, doesn't it? Well, when you add in the fact that I was just doing the flow of traffic (albeit very light traffic at this point), and the highway was straight as can be, it really wasn't extreme.
They just wanted that revenue, because they knew full-well I wouldn't come all the way back down there for the court case!
I went through Louisiana again about a year later, and this time made sure to do the speed limit the whole way through! Or, at least, close to it! :-)
"Columbus driving isn't so much "bad" as it is "nasty". I don't honk my horn unless I have to wake someone from a coma. People have been killed for it around here."
Not to quote myself, but this is a good segue into the topic of Road Rage. Surprisingly, this thread is light on the topic, and since Columbus is notorious for it, let's discuss.
Like I said, I won't honk my horn in this city unless I absolutely have to. With kids and a wife, my primary interest is to get from A to B in one piece. Columbus drivers are famous for cutting you off slamming on the brakes, and then flipping you the bird for look at them cross-eyed for it. If you dare to flip back, you better be prepared for a war. I've seen 75 year old ladies stop their cars on the freeway, get out, and charge 20 year old men. Insane people.
I'm an average-built guy. I'm 5'11", I run 5 miles a day, and I have a pretty diverse background in martial arts (Hapkido, Taekwondo). I'm in excellent physical shape, but I wouldn't dare confront someone from the road. I don't care if the other person is a 95 year old cane-tottin' blue hair. Old ladies and pull a trigger just as easily as I can. There are numerous reports on the news of people getting pulled over and found with knives, guns, brass knuckles, baseball bats, pipes, you name it. You have NO IDEA what other drivers have with them in their cars. No amount of bone-breaking Hapkido training can teach you to dodge bullets.
I can think of once when I actually wanted to physically confront another driver. It was about 7 years ago and I was helping my wife (then girlfriend) move her stepdad's office desk from downtown Columbus to his new office in Dublin. I had a pickup truck (little whimpy 2x4 Tacoma) and this solid oak desk was absolutely MASSIVE. I can't believe the truck didn't snap in half. I couldn't really see out of the rear-view mirror, but I could compensate with the sides and some rubbernecking. I was on 270 and in the far right lane doing 55 - 60. Yes, I was going under the limit but I had a massive load that was difficult to manage, so I did my best to stay out of everyone's way.
Well, some toothless, slackjawed redneck with no forehead cops and attitude with me because I'm going slow. Traffic was moderate (Saturday afternoon), but for some reason, he would not pass using either of the 2 lanes to our right. He was riding my bumper so close I could smell his wife's blood on his beater t-shirt. I tolerated this for about 2 miles, but I was getting very nervous and so was my girlfriend. I tapped my breaks just enough to bring up the lights. This pissed him off to no end. He turns on his brights, resumes the 0.2" distance, and begins swerving within the lane. This is when I lost my temper. I checked to make sure no one was behind him (there wasn't) and I slammed on my breaks as hard as I could. I literally said to my girlfriend "F*** this truck and F*** this desk... it's on!" It was stupid, yes, but I just lost it. Obviously, he had to dart into the next lane (the lane he should have used to pass 2 miles ago) and we just start screaming at eachother. He passes me and of course I know he's going to swerve over on my and slam on his breaks, so I'm down to 40 before he can even finish the lane change. No dice for him. We continue screaming at each other as I move over one lane so I'm not behind him. This guy looks like he's about mid forties, 6'2", and about 270lbs, but I'm ready to kill him. Thankfully, for both him, myself, and my girlfriend, his exit was up and he was gone.
I swear, if he had pulled off to the side of the road, I would have torn his head off and beat him with it. I have never, EVER, been that PISSED OFF and out of control in my entire life. After I had calmed down and stopped seeing red (and tasting blood), I was actually terrified. It occured to me that he and I would have gone at it until was of us was actually dead. I get worked up just talking about it, and this was 7 years ago.
One situation that aggravates the problem is speed limit changes and people's responses. I don't think 270 wavers much more than 65 down to 55 in construction, but in my neck of the woods (161 out east), the limit goes from 65 to 45 in construction.
A 20 mph change is pretty substantial, and of course it seems that half the people respond to it and half don't. So now you have speed differentials of as much as 30 mph.
At any rate, I tend to agree with the primary argument against LLC: preventing traffic build-up should be a primary goal. It's not just a safety issue; it's also a convenience issue to get people from A to B faster.
Finally, I try to give the benefit of the doubt to those going much faster than me. Who are we to judge them? Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding? True, perhaps it is just some obnoxious yuppie late to work who always speeds 15 over the limit. (in that case, he would likely pay the penalty in tickets anyway over time anyway).
But it could just as well be someone on the way to the hospital to attend a family emergency. Or it could be someone whose wife left just him and just got fired and is not really thinking about driving safely. Your refusing to get out of the way could be the LAST thing this person needs right now.
Since we seem to be talking about left lane blockers, I experienced a good one this morning. My commute takes me up US 301 from the Harry Nice Bridge (which traverses over the Potomac River) through southern MD. From the bridge to La Plata is a 13 mile stretch with only one light. Late model F150 decides he ain't going any faster than 63 mph in the left lane. Only problem is there are several vehicles that are going approximately the same speed in the right lane. In the meantime there are several vehicles that want to go faster building up in the two lanes behind these turkeys.
What made it more frustrating is at times the vehicles in the right lane sped up leaving a hole in which 4-5 faster drivers managed to slip through and then get over into the left lane ahead of the F150. Then a van merges into the right lane which Mr F150 decides he will run even with them for the rest of the way into La Plata. Oh wow, we're up to 64 mph!!! I don't think he ever looked in the rear view mirror. What made it somewhat dangerous was there were at least 2 18-wheel empty trash trucks in the mix.
By the way on the subject of LLB's being cited, I have never seen one pulled over for impeding traffic. At least not in the Washington DC area. Most are pulled over for speeding, or aggressive driving behavior.
...with LLCers because they are either clueless or jerks. If you're clueless, you can't be educated, if you're a jerk, you can't have a personality replacement. The only way we could reduce the phenomenon is if police started to (regularly) hand out tickets for doing it, but that's not going to happen this century. So it's kind of pointless to argue about it in the forum, but it's okay to give us anecdotes. ;-)
"One situation that aggravates the problem is speed limit changes and people's responses. I don't think 270 wavers much more than 65 down to 55 in construction, but in my neck of the woods (161 out east), the limit goes from 65 to 45 in construction."
Yeah, I try to avoid 161 at all costs. It's such a hit-or-miss route that I rarely venture on to it... and you hit the nail on the hit with the speed diffs... half the people adjust and half don't. Talk about stress!
"Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding?"
Another excellent point. I had to take my wife to the ER a few weekends ago (gall bladder attack). It was real early on a Saturday morning, thankfully, and I went as fast as I could while maintaining control of the vehicle. I took 270 to 315, and was probably going about 90 - 95 the whole way. If someone had tried tooling with me under these circumstances, I would have spun them out on their quarter panel and explained it to the cops later.
You never know what someone's motivations to speed are. True, they might just be trying to shave 5 minutes from their commute... but they also might be trying to get to their wife/child/etc to the ER before they bleed out.
Emergencies are a tough call. Do you call 911 and wait (ever so impatiently) for the rescue squad unit or take the chance of a nasty ticket and speed them to the hospital?
I was in a similar situation a few years ago when my daugher broke her arm (slipped in the bathroom). Ended up taking her to the hospital myself (doing 80 mph on the way).
Seriously if someone has that type of emergency let the EMS people come and they can handle the bleeding during the trip to the hospital for additonal help. If it's a labor/gall attack, that's different. Pain, but survivable.
Went through 270 toward Cleveland a few weeks ago. If I recall there was a major accident in the multilane swerve and merge to hit the eastbound exit after we went through. It's a road where I found speeding with capital S in the left lane, just like you say. But usually has lots of traffic volume when I've been through, even the time after they finally finished all the construction (how many years did they have construction from I70-I71?).
the other day. The first was in DC. I was at a red light behind a Ford Ranger. Just as the light turned green, and the Ranger took off, a Chrysler Concorde decided to make a right turn on red, right in front of the Ranger, without even bothering to speed up! Ranger almost hit him, and laid into the horn. Finally when he had a chance he shot past this idiot in the left lane.
I forget what the speed limit was, but this guy was only doing like 20-25! If you're going to go that slow, what is the urgency in running a red light just to beat somebody out?! I looked over at the guy as I passed him. Didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary about him. Old enough to know better than to do something like that, but not old enough that senility could be a factor. And from the expression on his face, he didn't appear to have a chip on his shoulder.
The other instance was getting on to Route 50 in Annapolis. There were two lanes that didn't merge into one for awhile, so there was plenty of time. I was in the left lane, the one that ended, doing maybe 55-60. Well, when I'm right on top of him, a nerd in a Chevy Metro decides to come over right in front of me, at like 35 mph! No turn signal or anything! Although cutting over that close a turn signal would've probably only added insult. I laid into the horn and got right up on him. And that getting right up on him wasn't just to bully him...he almost got his nerdy butt knocked into the next area code!
I just don't understand what the obsession is with people that they have to be first! There's an old saying that if you race a train to the railroad crossing, even if it's a tie, you lose. Well, reality check here...if you're in a Metro and trying to race an Intrepid, if it's a tie you lose, too!
I have to agree with whoever said Boston was an awful place to drive - not enough roads and the drivers are the worst. I live and drive in the DC Metro area - traffic is extremely heavy here and there's too many fools in cars. Left lane discipline is non-existent. I get to drive to Columbus once a year, and those big Ohio roads are so nice after the cramped Virginia ones. I have never had a problem with Ohio traffic out there - folks seem a lot more considerate than here.
Stop the whinning about what the speed is. Stop hogging the left lane and pullover when someone comes behind you and flashes. I don't care how many cars are in front of you. Pull over and let the driver clear the left lane of hogs. Speed doesn't kill, not keeping right except to pass KILLS. Look at Germany's auto death rate being within plus or minus 10% of the US death rate, year after year, while having no speed limits on most of the autobahn. Why? LANE DISCIPLINE.
If and when I come across someone doing 65 in the center lane (not a problem in my book), I move to the left lane to pass.
Good..I agree. That is what the left lane is for. For PASSING..... not camping at low speeds.
Likewise, In the right lane, let the 55 mph people camp...it is a little too slow, but at least it will allow slower cars to merge into traffic...and get out of the left lanes...
If the person in the left lane is also doing 65, then I have a problem. That's not what the left lane is for, and they are impeding the natural flow of traffic.
agree also...they should camp in the right lanes.....not impede the flow of traffic....and not use a traffic lane that is supposed to be used for passing only.
This tends to aggravate the rest of the drivers on the road, which quickly escalates into group aggression. That's when I, personally, get frustrated (and nervous).
I agree that most people get upset when a slow guy camps in the left....but I now tell myself to cool it...don't escalate the situation into a more dangerous one. I sometimes get my wife to write down the license plate of the offender...and register a complaint to the CHP highway patrol, who actually sends out a letter to these ignorant but perhaps nice people.
By being in their own little world, they have turned the situation into a dangerous one. Given the choice, I'd have them removed from the road long before the people who wish to go 10 - 15 MPH faster than me
well, I slightly disagree...though I understand your frustration at these clueless people. I tend to think like you...and wish to have the police pull them over . However, the speeders that go 120 mph frequently have little in training nor much experience in high speed driving. Cars handle differently and all dynamics change when you are going 100 mpg, compared to 75 mph....
go to : www.wreckedexotics.com
and you will see the many results of speeding.
I see your point....and agree with the rest of your post....just that we should be careful not to get angry.....even if the guy in the next line is an idiot... Give GRACE....and write down the guys plate number and vehicle and person description....that works for me....
At any rate, I tend to agree with the primary argument against LLC: preventing traffic build-up should be a primary goal. It's not just a safety issue; it's also a convenience issue to get people from A to B faster.
excellent post...I agree, as most of the other great posters do...with what you said.
Finally, I try to give the benefit of the doubt to those going much faster than me. Who are we to judge them? Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding? True, perhaps it is just some obnoxious yuppie late to work who always speeds 15 over the limit. (in that case, he would likely pay the penalty in tickets anyway over time anyway).
very true....give benefit of doubt, and give GRACE....smile and let the cars that need to go faster , pass.
But it could just as well be someone on the way to the hospital to attend a family emergency. Or it could be someone whose wife left just him and just got fired and is not really thinking about driving safely. Your refusing to get out of the way could be the LAST thing this person needs right now.
true again.... I once had a severe tummy ache...thought it was nothing, but started throwing up....fever and discomfort...but waited.
then drove myself to the hospital....was in slight discomfort...but it can't be foodpoisoning....went fast and got caught by the police.... but when I explained to him the reason, he said to take care on the way to the hospital...and asked if I needed an escort..
>That is what the left lane is for. For PASSING.....
I agree. The test I apply for left lane dominators is whether they were in the middle lane of the interstate when there was room for them to use it. Or did they stay in the left lane all the time as they come up from behind just because they shouldn't have to change lanes--if only everyone got out of THEIR lane.
When I see someone moving in an out of the middle lane coming up at a greater speed I make sure to move out of the left lane by speeding up to complete my passing. Courtesy and attitudes is what it's all about.
I've lived/driven in the Boston area all my life, and drive throughout New England regularly. Here's the running analysis: MA drivers: Inconsiderate RI drivers: Inept CT drivers: In LaLa Land (worst left-lane hoggers in the nation). As someone who drives a lot, in many regions, I "crossed the bridge" years ago: I just plain don't let anyone get to me, no matter how ignorant or poor a driver. Turn up the radio and think of floating around in my boat with a big 'ol largemouth bass on the line. Life is way too short to worry about morons.
"speed doesn't kill people, Death kills people!" (okay, they were actually talking guns, not speed, but it's the same principle).
What I'm getting at here is that it's usually not excessive speed that causes an accident, it's somebody running a red light, failing to yield right-of-way, changing lanes without turning. THOSE things are what usually cause the accidents Speed might exacerbate the severity of the accident, but it was the other action that caused it.
Of course, you can argue that had one person not been speeding, then perhaps they might have had time to react to the red light runner, the idiotic lane changer, the moron who pulled out from a side street without looking, etc.
What I'm getting at is that, seriously, it's not just speed that causes accidents. Think about it...if people practiced better lane discipline, learned to stop at stop signs and red lights, not pull out in front of cars that are going faster than them, etc, then it would be safer to speed.
Unfortunately, I don't think the typical American driver will ever evolve to that point though, where their driving becomes skillful enough that it DOES make it safe to speed.
Okay, I'll stifle now. I'm just rambling on, and playing devil's advocate a bit :-)
I have visions of pressing a button on my dashboard and having their car visually explode.
Or maybe one where the vehicle wraps around a guard rail, and have it penetrate it so hard that the sheetmetal is left intact...where it bursts into a huge fireball while having passer-by's/rubberneckers gawk at the beauty of burning metals.
Or one where I wish they are drifting into their sleep and just drive off the road, as their vehicle methodically crosses the grassy median and smashes head on inyo an 18 wheeler with a shiny chrome grill/cow catcher.
Or moments where you just hope one of their wheels explodes at high speed, where they aren't able to counter control the vehicle... where it flips and rolls over no less than 10 times, and ends up hanging by one tire off a bridge with a 100ft drop, overlooking jagged rocks down below, where one snap might spell doom, if the previous 10 cart-wheels didn't.
Yes... I too have pleasants thoughts to pass the time.
If speed kills then the logocal conslusion is that we should all walk. Follow the logic - 50 is a higher speed than 49 so the spped limit should be 49. 49 is a higher spedd than 48 so the speed limint should be 48 and on and on until we walk. The proof that not keeping right kills is that the most dangerous situation is forcing someone to pass on the right becaus you are hogging the left lane. This is merely one condition of why hogging the left lane is very dangerous. The proof is the lane discipline on the autobahn with fatalities within plus or minus 10% of US fatalities and NO SPEED LIMIT.
So, it's dangerous for the speeder to change lanes to pass, but it's not dangerous for the people already in the left lane to change lanes over and then back so the speeder can continue on violating the law?
>autobahn
I don't believe the autobahn is here in the US. Does the autobahn go through downtown Cincinnati? Driving here is different than the autobahn. I55 from far suburbs into downtown wasn't like the autobahn. 76 into Philly from VAlley Forge didn't have many open stetches. Forget the autobahn comparisons; they're not reasonable.
But I have noticed BWM and Mercedes drivers sometimes seem to want to feel like they're driving on an open highway through the wide open forests between major cities. Grin...
It is hard to compare the Autobahn to any highways here in the US. The way that it is constructed - the tickness of the concrete (to prevent pot holes from forming), and the way it is maintained is phenomenal. It is also monitored by a group of people in a control room that watch everything that goes on on the Autobahn via camera, and can send messages to the drivers on computerized message boards along the interstate. My point is that the Autobahn was engineered for high speed driving, whereas highways here in the US are not.
If someone had tried tooling with me under these circumstances, I would have spun them out on their quarter panel and explained it to the cops later.
I guess it is OK to kill/injure people so long as your wife gets the treatment she needs. No wonder people are buying the biggest/heaviest tanks they can afford.
"I guess it is OK to kill/injure people so long as your wife gets the treatment she needs. No wonder people are buying the biggest/heaviest tanks they can afford."
If I'm rushing my wife or child to the ER and some jackass decides to play cop, you can bet your you-know-what I'll do whatever it takes to get there. Would I go out of my way to cause an accident? Of course not. I'm a man who takes the path of least resistance. But lets say we're on a two lane road... I try to pass, and they block me. Guess what: they're going into a ditch and no, I don't give a damn.
This is precisely why only COPS should try to impose rules on the road. It's not your job, and it's not mine. You have absolutely no idea why I'm speeding or trying to pass... not that it's any of your business in the first place.
You are right, it isn't the place of the average guy to try to play cop - that's how people get killed. If someone is driving irratically around me (passing at a high rate of speed, etc...), I just pull out the cell phone and call the cops with the license plate #. I figure that they can go after the driver and determine if the dangerous driving is justified.
You have absolutely no idea why I'm speeding or trying to pass...
And the flip side to that? You have absolutely no idea why he is doing what he appears to be doing. May be he is just distracted.
And, MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, while you are pulling your stunt, it is very possible that someone completely innocent, who just happened to be on the road at the same time will get hurt.
It is just amazing to me that you, presumably WITHOUT any education in high speed driving or impacts, are willing to play GOD and maime or kill someone. Call 911 and sit tight at home.
For travel at 75 mph when cars weighed nearly 3 tons and had drum brakes. Some idiot in the left lane doing 55 mph to keep a person doing 80 from "speeding" isn't doing anything for "safety". That argument is dumb.
"And the flip side to that? You have absolutely no idea why he is doing what he appears to be doing. May be he is just distracted.".
When I say engineered for speed, I am referring to speeds of 85 and up for a continued amount of time. I recently watched a documentary comparing the Autobahn to US highways. The engineering differences were night and day.
But please understand, I in no way support "left lane campers" - I am just saying that the Autobahn cannot be compared to US highways.
And, I made that argument when? My point was that people do not deserve to get killed by a stunt driver when they are simply distracted. Perhaps you disagree.
Tulip, you and I could go 'round and 'round all day on this. I have confidence in my ability to assess situations and make the best decision. You're ASSUMING I would send someone careening into innocent people. In fact, you're making several assumptions. My job as a father and husband is to take care of my family. If Joe Blow is too busy on his cell phone to realize that someone is desperately trying to pass him, then he's in for a rude awakening. I'll certainly make more than one safe attempt... but eventually you need to move on and get to the ER.
Now, regarding 911. You have NO IDEA what the circumstances are of the emergency. Maybe I'm not even AT home. Maybe I don't have a cell phone. Maybe a phone isn't available. Maybe the situation is such that waiting for the ambulance would be a death sentence (and spare me the forthcoming comment on how driving erratically is a death sentence).
The fact is, there are some situations where one MUST get from A to B NOW. If and when I'm in that situation, I will do so as quickly as possible while remaining in control of my vehicle. If someone forces me (read: FORCES ME, LEAVES ME ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE) to run them off the road, then I'll do it.
You seem to think that I'd resort to such a maneuver right off the bat. I most certainly would not. I would exhaust all other options first. But if it becomes apparent that someone needs to be physically moved or my wife (or child) is going is going to die, the decision is obvious. If you disagree, you'll understand once you have kids.
I read in a couple places looking at car accident fatalities and the overwhelming majority (80%) of fatalities happens at speeds of 45 mph or less!!!!
The NHTSA used to routinely publish these statistics, but perhaps it was either pointed out to them that this might be oxymoronic to their long time and term advertising campaign of "SPEED KILLS"
Actually the same agency when the national speed limit was 55 mph, predicted MASSIVE increases in fatalities (and accidents) if the national speed limit was raised to 65 mph.
EXACTLY the OPPOSITE occurred. The national speed limit is at 65 mph and in some areas 70-75 mph is the law. The highway system per mile driven is the safest and has THE LOWEST fatality RATE ever since they have been keeping these records. This is even more stark because: 1. more miles driven 3 more trips are taken by passenger vehicle 4 more drivers 5 more cars 6 higher speed limits.
I don't know where you are from, but in the South and up the East coast, there are hundreds of miles of freeway that can easily support 100 mph cruising. I'm sure you aren't gonna go that speed through a metropolitan area but there are a lot on miles between cities.
Maybe some of us need to actually DO some travelling on the open road and experience some 80-90 mph driving on an open 2 lane highway with light traffic. Nothing is more infuriating than to have to happen upon some idiot who won't complete a simple pass for miles. That's just inconsiderate and my speed is not affecting his "safety" in any way.
...I will do so as quickly as possible while remaining in control of my vehicle. That's the point. You don't know if you will be in control when you deliberately hit someone.
If you disagree, you'll understand once you have kids.
I do and I do. That is why I do not want someone with an attitude like yours to run into my child.
That makes sense to me. I'm certainly not an expert, but it seems to me that absolute speeds are a distant contributing factor to fatalities and accidents in general. Far more impactful, in my opinion, are things like awareness, flow, and consideration:
1. Are the drivers in a given "pack" aware of their surroundings?
2. Are the drivers in a given "pack" doing their part to keep with the flow and allow others to pass as needed?
3. Are the drivers in a given "pack" doing their part to make life easy for everyone around them (signals, keeping right, no cut-offs, etc)?
I think these three things are FAR more important than the actual speed of the vehicles, in most cases (bad weather, severe conjestion aside).
Look at the Autobahn, for example. A prime example of sheer automotive efficiency at work.... and it works because the drivers recognize what it takes to make it work. Last time I checked, they were going a little more than 65MPH .
He had harrassed a adult and was running across the street without looking. I was doing the speed limit and was alert, the kid just ran out in front of my brand new truck. Did $2500 worth of damage to my truck that I was responsible for $500 of. No legal recourse against a minor. Even though he was ticketed.
So accidents are just that...accidents.
Keep control of your kid and I'll keep control of my vehicle. Deal?
"But it's okay for you to play cop and run them off the road so you can do what you wish to do. Isn't that a double standard?"
Terrible analogy. Running them off the road isn't "playing cop". I'm not running them off the road to punish them or to penalize them. I'm doing it as a last resort because I have a passenger who's life is at stake.
I think you misunderstood my posts altogether. I am not complaining about speedig at all. Drive at whatever speed makes you comfortable. My only bone of contention is this: No one has a right to deliberately hit another driver to clear the way even under an emergency.
Because you can. That's why they are blocking the lane anyway. If they can be a jerk, then so can you. I mean maybe you were "distracted" and didn't see then there. LOL.
If the passenger is in a needy state, you're not going to be able administer to their needs, cpr, compression to stop bleeding, helping deliver baby, while driving the car.
I our area we have an EMT squad who be at the door in 90 seconds and will deliver much better care starting two minutes after I call than I could do doing a 10-15 minute drive to 3 different hospitals. Plus they have lights and siren or can administer good medical assistance until a helicopter arrives in approx 8 minutes.
That is the wise person's choice rather than running others off the road. Doesn't seem to be adult-like thinking.
"No one has a right to deliberately hit another driver to clear the way even under an emergency."
Well, then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Under some rare, special, extreme circumstances, I would do it.
"So let's put a few more lives at stake. Excellent point!"
Well, if you ask me, the person who's made it a point to play cop has already made that decision for themselves, myself, and my wife/child. They made the decision, not me. I'm not going to cruise behind them with someone who's bleeding out beside me just because it's safer for THEM. I could give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about THEM at that point.
"If they can be a jerk, then so can you."
I can't say I agree with that... again, I want to emphasize that the actions I'm describing are not meant to be retaliatory, bully-ish, or anything of the sort. It's an absolute LAST RESORT, and certainly not anything I've had to do in the past. My original comments on the matter were in response to another post and not meant to say "if someone screws with me on the road when I'm in a hurry, I'm going to cause a 19 car pile-up". It was a quick comment that was representative of feelings on a rather complex subject.
To justify pushing someone off the road to get to the ER, a lot of things must happen first:
- An ambulance was out of the question, for whatever reason
- My wife's/child's life is in danger
- The other vehicle has made it absolutely impossible to pass/escape.
It's only under these conditions that I would consider such a move... but yes, I make no bones about the fact that I would, in fact, consider it.
"I our area we have an EMT squad who be at the door in 90 seconds and will deliver much better care starting two minutes"
Well that's fantastic... for YOU. I've already said that this all assumes that access to an ambulence doesn't exist. It's a moot point. For one, an ambulence can't be at my door in less than 15 minutes.
But what if we're not at home and don't even have access to a phone? What's your "adult-like", "wise" solution then? Not to be sarcastic and flip, but you're not considering the whole picture that I've described.
Given the choice, I'd MUCH rather have an EMT tend to the needs of the injured and get us there quicker and safer. In some cases, though, it's not an option. THOSE are the cases to which I'm referring.
I do not know how each state regulates the ambulances, but in CA (I read this so have no working familiarity) they legally are enjoined from going OVER 15 mph over the limit (lights flashing coded response, you know the drill). So given a 65 mph speed limit= 80 mph.
I have also been 110-120 in a police car (coded response, etc) in a semi crowded freeway traffic. Even with the flashing lights and sirens there are literally clueless LLCers.
Comments
First of all, "gross speeding" is a matter of your own personal concept of what's okay and what isn't. What you consider to be "gross speeding" might be my idea of "keeping up with the flow of traffic". A lot of it is just perception. Hint, if you find yourself surrounded by 4 or 5 "gross speeders", you just might be the problem
"You post is hard to read because there are no spaces. Paragraphs are your friend."
My bad. I guess that makes me wrong.
"I get a sense in your post that you get angry when others don't do what you believe they should do."
Quite the contrary. I live most of my life in the center lane doing about 70 - 75. If and when I come across someone doing 65 in the center lane (not a problem in my book), I move to the left lane to pass. If the person in the left lane is also doing 65, then I have a problem. That's not what the left lane is for, and they are impeding the natural flow of traffic. This tends to aggravate the rest of the drivers on the road, which quickly escalates into group aggression. That's when I, personally, get frustrated (and nervous). By being in their own little world, they have turned the situation into a dangerous one. Given the choice, I'd have them removed from the road long before the people who wish to go 10 - 15 MPH faster than me. They (the speeders) don't bother me. They're predictable, they're almost always paying attention (unlike the LLC), and they're not hindering anyone else.
"It's that anger that I often see in the left lane dominators."
Wow... you sure have me clocked after reading a few posts. 1: I'm not a left lane dominator. I use it to pass. 2: I don't get angry on the road except under extreme circumstances. I can think of 5 or 6 times in the 11 years I've been driving that I've actually been "angry", and it was because someone nearly killed me.
"Typically it's heavy traffic in all 3 lanes, left lane dominator expects a car in left lane to get out of his way so he can move up 150 feet and make the next car in the lane move over and so on down the road."
That might be what's typical for you, but don't project your daily experiences onto me, and then procede to judge me by them. That's not typical in my area. The left lane in my area is rarely heavy. When it is, it's usually because of someone clogging it up going 65MPH about 6 cars up ahead. In front of them, it's usually open road. This is typical FOR ME.
"All this and he gains maybe half a mile in 15 miles of traffic into Cincy."
Now, regardless of each of our individual road conditions, people's motivations should not be your concern, nor should their expected benefit of speeding be your concern. Your concern should be driving safely, predictably, and in a manner compatible with other drivers around you. Going 65MPH in the fast lane might be breaking the law, but far more important is the fact that it's NOT predictable, NOT safe, and NOT compatible with the driving characteristics of the people with whom you share the road.
Something I see discussed frequently is the breaking of two laws. I'm going to refer to this as "BOTL". One guy wants to speed. Another guy wants to sit in the left lane for any number of reasons (because he "can", because he wants to impose the speed limit, because he's situationally unaware, etc). Regardless, there is a law being broken by both parties. Let's face the facts, folks: NO ONE obeys ALL of the laws on the road. Not even the cops. Frankly, it would be impossible to do so... in some situations, it would even be dangerous to do so. That said, we need to examine the effects of these two laws broken. The speeder might be breaking a law, but unless he cannot control his vehicle under the given conditions (weather, heavy traffic, etc), he's not really affecting anyone. Obviously there's a limit to this, but it's safe to say it's above 65MPH. Now, the other guy who's sitting in the left lane at 65MPH, is also breaking a law. A cop could care less that he's going the speed limit. His actions are actually affecting other drivers and are DANGEROUS. In previous postings in this very thread, actual police officers have written that they (and their blue bretheren) have a higher tolerance for speeders than they do for LLC's for the very reasons I've outlined.
Frankly, that's all the evidence I need to justify my position. Call me stubborn. I can live with that.
But then, out on a desolate stretch of highway in the desert where you can see for 5 miles, 95-100 might not be a big deal. It's all going to depend on the road, weather/lighting conditions, visibility, traffic patterns, etc.
But basically, my stand on the issue is that if you want to go slower than the flow of traffic, and you don't have a left turn coming up anytime soon, you simply don't need to be in the left lane.
EXCELLENT point, and I wholeheartedly agree. For the same reasons that LLCs are dangerous, so is someone who is travelling 95MPH in traffic that is going 75MPH. In this case, the speeder is being very dangerous in that he's very unpredictable relative to the rest of traffic, and his driving is not compatible with current conditions.
I really think that this is a key concept that people either forget or simply cannot understand. Within reason ("reason" defined as the local law enforcement's tolerance, as well as weather conditions, traffic conditions, etc), the speed limit isn't so much set by the signs on the side of the road as it is by traffic. If the speed limit is 65MPH, traffic is moderate, weather is good, and traffic is cruising at 75MPH, you can bet that no one is getting pulled over. Now if someone enters the picture at 65MPH, they have changed the scenery dramatically. Even if they just sit in the far right lane, they're still causing a minor problem if everyone else in the right lane was going 75MPH. Now they all have to pass or hit the breaks. All of this creates problems in the other lanes. You can certainly see the chain reaction taking place here... and this is just with someone doing this in the far right lane (but not keeping up with traffic). When you enter a highway, it is your responsibility to match the current driving conditions on the road. If you aren't comfortable with that, you shouldn't be there.
Think about the effects when this person decides to cross 3 lanes into the far left. Now you have mayhem and a bunch of people jammed up with no lane to pass in (safely).
One of the most important rules about highway driving is keeping up with traffic, and not impeding the flow of faster traffic in the left lane(s). Damn the speed limit signs if traffic is going 10MPH faster. Ask any cop; they'll agree.
Now, like Andre pointed out, if the flow of traffic is 65MPH and traffic is *actually* heavy in all lanes, and some twit is weaving in and out at 85MPH, there's a big problem. I'll grin if I stumble upon him a few miles up the road where he's parked on his roof in a ditch against against a sewer drainpipe.
I never intended to write a blank check for speeders... it's all contingent on the current conditions, courtesy, and safety.
Nope. Just makes you a whole lot easier to read this time. Thanks.
Your profile doesn't indicate in what area of the country you drive. Different areas see different patterns of driver behavior.
>he's not really affecting anyone
Tongue in cheek: When I get stopped for speeding, I'll tell the officer that I'm not really affecting anyone..., so you don't need to give me a ticket.
I'm curious what area your interstate driving is in. I found DC area to be pushy but not brazen in their driving. I found Philly morning traffic on the Scuykill sp? Freeway to downtown to be surprisingly courteous. Chicago was nasty.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Honestly, I could have sworn I used paragraphs the first time... sorry about that.
"Your profile doesn't indicate in what area of the country you drive. Different areas see different patterns of driver behavior."
I live in Hilliard, Ohio and work in Westerville, Ohio. These are to suburbs of Columbus, Ohio, which is surrounded by the 270 outerbelt. Another freeway, 315, cuts the city in half. 71 and 70 both pass through Columbus and intersect 270 in two places. Traffic conditions in certain areas are rough at certain times. 315, for example, is a nightmare at rush hour. 270 has its bottlenecks, but the 20 mile stretch that I drive is pretty good at 7:00 in the morning when I go to work and 4:30 when I go home. The major problems
Since I only travel 270, I'll just refer to that. Traffic in the far right lane is usually traveling 60MPH - 65MPH. The center lane is usually anywhere between 65MPH and 75MPH. Conjestion in this lane is moderate, while conjestion in the right lane is usually rather heavy due to very frequent exits and entrances. The left lane usually travels between 80MPH and 85MPH. These are speeds that keep up with traffic in that given lane. To get a speeding ticket on 270 at these times of day, you need to be hauling and you need to be isolated. 85MPH is 20 over the limit, but if that's what traffic is doing, you're not getting a ticket. If I'm late to work, I'll do 85MPH and use the left lane as necessary (I pass two cops daily), and my first and last speeding ticket was 40MPH in a residential zone when I was 17.
"Tongue in cheek: When I get stopped for speeding, I'll tell the officer that I'm not really affecting anyone..., so you don't need to give me a ticket."
Well, like I said: it's relative
There are numerous speed traps on 270... I go through 2 of them on my way to and from work. The people that get pulled over are the ones who are not matching the flow of traffic, either by going to slow or going to fast. I may be speeding at 85MPH, but if that's the flow of traffic, the cop isn't going to look at me twice. He's waiting for the guy going 95MPH.
On a side note, I've driven in quite a few cities around the country and in Canada. By far, without a doubt, the worst place I've ever encountered in Boston. I've never been so frightened on the road in my life. I was actually a danger to the other drivers because I could not adjust to their conditions. I tried it twice, and used cabs thereafter. Traffic won, I won, and the cabbie won. Chicago wasn't fun, but it was manageable. Columbus driving isn't so much "bad" as it is "nasty". I don't honk my horn unless I have to wake someone from a coma. People have been killed for it around here.
They just wanted that revenue, because they knew full-well I wouldn't come all the way back down there for the court case!
I went through Louisiana again about a year later, and this time made sure to do the speed limit the whole way through! Or, at least, close to it! :-)
Not to quote myself, but this is a good segue into the topic of Road Rage. Surprisingly, this thread is light on the topic, and since Columbus is notorious for it, let's discuss.
Like I said, I won't honk my horn in this city unless I absolutely have to. With kids and a wife, my primary interest is to get from A to B in one piece. Columbus drivers are famous for cutting you off slamming on the brakes, and then flipping you the bird for look at them cross-eyed for it. If you dare to flip back, you better be prepared for a war. I've seen 75 year old ladies stop their cars on the freeway, get out, and charge 20 year old men. Insane people.
I'm an average-built guy. I'm 5'11", I run 5 miles a day, and I have a pretty diverse background in martial arts (Hapkido, Taekwondo). I'm in excellent physical shape, but I wouldn't dare confront someone from the road. I don't care if the other person is a 95 year old cane-tottin' blue hair. Old ladies and pull a trigger just as easily as I can. There are numerous reports on the news of people getting pulled over and found with knives, guns, brass knuckles, baseball bats, pipes, you name it. You have NO IDEA what other drivers have with them in their cars. No amount of bone-breaking Hapkido training can teach you to dodge bullets.
I can think of once when I actually wanted to physically confront another driver. It was about 7 years ago and I was helping my wife (then girlfriend) move her stepdad's office desk from downtown Columbus to his new office in Dublin. I had a pickup truck (little whimpy 2x4 Tacoma) and this solid oak desk was absolutely MASSIVE. I can't believe the truck didn't snap in half. I couldn't really see out of the rear-view mirror, but I could compensate with the sides and some rubbernecking. I was on 270 and in the far right lane doing 55 - 60. Yes, I was going under the limit but I had a massive load that was difficult to manage, so I did my best to stay out of everyone's way.
Well, some toothless, slackjawed redneck with no forehead cops and attitude with me because I'm going slow. Traffic was moderate (Saturday afternoon), but for some reason, he would not pass using either of the 2 lanes to our right. He was riding my bumper so close I could smell his wife's blood on his beater t-shirt. I tolerated this for about 2 miles, but I was getting very nervous and so was my girlfriend. I tapped my breaks just enough to bring up the lights. This pissed him off to no end. He turns on his brights, resumes the 0.2" distance, and begins swerving within the lane. This is when I lost my temper. I checked to make sure no one was behind him (there wasn't) and I slammed on my breaks as hard as I could. I literally said to my girlfriend "F*** this truck and F*** this desk... it's on!" It was stupid, yes, but I just lost it. Obviously, he had to dart into the next lane (the lane he should have used to pass 2 miles ago) and we just start screaming at eachother. He passes me and of course I know he's going to swerve over on my and slam on his breaks, so I'm down to 40 before he can even finish the lane change. No dice for him. We continue screaming at each other as I move over one lane so I'm not behind him. This guy looks like he's about mid forties, 6'2", and about 270lbs, but I'm ready to kill him. Thankfully, for both him, myself, and my girlfriend, his exit was up and he was gone.
I swear, if he had pulled off to the side of the road, I would have torn his head off and beat him with it. I have never, EVER, been that PISSED OFF and out of control in my entire life. After I had calmed down and stopped seeing red (and tasting blood), I was actually terrified. It occured to me that he and I would have gone at it until was of us was actually dead. I get worked up just talking about it, and this was 7 years ago.
I'd still be in jail if he had pulled over.
I'm certain that I'll run into a few on my daily errands!
A 20 mph change is pretty substantial, and of course it seems that half the people respond to it and half don't. So now you have speed differentials of as much as 30 mph.
At any rate, I tend to agree with the primary argument against LLC: preventing traffic build-up should be a primary goal. It's not just a safety issue; it's also a convenience issue to get people from A to B faster.
Finally, I try to give the benefit of the doubt to those going much faster than me. Who are we to judge them? Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding? True, perhaps it is just some obnoxious yuppie late to work who always speeds 15 over the limit. (in that case, he would likely pay the penalty in tickets anyway over time anyway).
But it could just as well be someone on the way to the hospital to attend a family emergency. Or it could be someone whose wife left just him and just got fired and is not really thinking about driving safely. Your refusing to get out of the way could be the LAST thing this person needs right now.
What made it more frustrating is at times the vehicles in the right lane sped up leaving a hole in which 4-5 faster drivers managed to slip through and then get over into the left lane ahead of the F150. Then a van merges into the right lane which Mr F150 decides he will run even with them for the rest of the way into La Plata. Oh wow, we're up to 64 mph!!! I don't think he ever looked in the rear view mirror. What made it somewhat dangerous was there were at least 2 18-wheel empty trash trucks in the mix.
By the way on the subject of LLB's being cited, I have never seen one pulled over for impeding traffic. At least not in the Washington DC area. Most are pulled over for speeding, or aggressive driving behavior.
Yeah, I try to avoid 161 at all costs. It's such a hit-or-miss route that I rarely venture on to it... and you hit the nail on the hit with the speed diffs... half the people adjust and half don't. Talk about stress!
"Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding?"
Another excellent point. I had to take my wife to the ER a few weekends ago (gall bladder attack). It was real early on a Saturday morning, thankfully, and I went as fast as I could while maintaining control of the vehicle. I took 270 to 315, and was probably going about 90 - 95 the whole way. If someone had tried tooling with me under these circumstances, I would have spun them out on their quarter panel and explained it to the cops later.
You never know what someone's motivations to speed are. True, they might just be trying to shave 5 minutes from their commute... but they also might be trying to get to their wife/child/etc to the ER before they bleed out.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago when my daugher broke her arm (slipped in the bathroom). Ended up taking her to the hospital myself (doing 80 mph on the way).
Went through 270 toward Cleveland a few weeks ago. If I recall there was a major accident in the multilane swerve and merge to hit the eastbound exit after we went through. It's a road where I found speeding with capital S in the left lane, just like you say. But usually has lots of traffic volume when I've been through, even the time after they finally finished all the construction (how many years did they have construction from I70-I71?).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I forget what the speed limit was, but this guy was only doing like 20-25! If you're going to go that slow, what is the urgency in running a red light just to beat somebody out?! I looked over at the guy as I passed him. Didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary about him. Old enough to know better than to do something like that, but not old enough that senility could be a factor. And from the expression on his face, he didn't appear to have a chip on his shoulder.
The other instance was getting on to Route 50 in Annapolis. There were two lanes that didn't merge into one for awhile, so there was plenty of time. I was in the left lane, the one that ended, doing maybe 55-60. Well, when I'm right on top of him, a nerd in a Chevy Metro decides to come over right in front of me, at like 35 mph! No turn signal or anything! Although cutting over that close a turn signal would've probably only added insult. I laid into the horn and got right up on him. And that getting right up on him wasn't just to bully him...he almost got his nerdy butt knocked into the next area code!
I just don't understand what the obsession is with people that they have to be first! There's an old saying that if you race a train to the railroad crossing, even if it's a tie, you lose. Well, reality check here...if you're in a Metro and trying to race an Intrepid, if it's a tie you lose, too!
Good..I agree. That is what the left lane is for. For PASSING..... not camping at low speeds.
Likewise, In the right lane, let the 55 mph people camp...it is a little too slow, but at least it will allow slower cars to merge into traffic...and get out of the left lanes...
If the person in the left lane is also doing 65, then I have a problem. That's not what the left lane is for, and they are impeding the natural flow of traffic.
agree also...they should camp in the right lanes.....not impede the flow of traffic....and not use a traffic lane that is supposed to be used for passing only.
This tends to aggravate the rest of the drivers on the road, which quickly escalates into group aggression. That's when I, personally, get frustrated (and nervous).
I agree that most people get upset when a slow guy camps in the left....but I now tell myself to cool it...don't escalate the situation into a more dangerous one. I sometimes get my wife to write down the license plate of the offender...and register a complaint to the CHP highway patrol, who actually sends out a letter to these ignorant but perhaps nice people.
By being in their own little world, they have turned the situation into a dangerous one. Given the choice, I'd have them removed from the road long before the people who wish to go 10 - 15 MPH faster than me
well, I slightly disagree...though I understand your frustration at these clueless people. I tend to think like you...and wish to have the police pull them over . However, the speeders that go 120 mph frequently have little in training nor much experience in high speed driving. Cars handle differently and all dynamics change when you are going 100 mpg, compared to 75 mph....
go to : www.wreckedexotics.com
and you will see the many results of speeding.
I see your point....and agree with the rest of your post....just that we should be careful not to get angry.....even if the guy in the next line is an idiot... Give GRACE....and write down the guys plate number and vehicle and person description....that works for me....
excellent post...I agree, as most of the other great posters do...with what you said.
Finally, I try to give the benefit of the doubt to those going much faster than me. Who are we to judge them? Who knows exactly why he/she is speeding? True, perhaps it is just some obnoxious yuppie late to work who always speeds 15 over the limit. (in that case, he would likely pay the penalty in tickets anyway over time anyway).
very true....give benefit of doubt, and give GRACE....smile and let the cars that need to go faster , pass.
But it could just as well be someone on the way to the hospital to attend a family emergency. Or it could be someone whose wife left just him and just got fired and is not really thinking about driving safely. Your refusing to get out of the way could be the LAST thing this person needs right now.
true again....
I once had a severe tummy ache...thought it was nothing, but started throwing up....fever and discomfort...but waited.
then drove myself to the hospital....was in slight discomfort...but it can't be foodpoisoning....went fast
and got caught by the police....
but when I explained to him the reason, he said to take care on the way to the hospital...and asked if I needed an escort..
:-)
Speed does kill. Do you have proof that speeding does NOT cause deaths at a higher rate than driving at a normal speed?
>not keeping right except to pass KILLS
That's a ridiculous statement. Proof?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree. The test I apply for left lane dominators is whether they were in the middle lane of the interstate when there was room for them to use it. Or did they stay in the left lane all the time as they come up from behind just because they shouldn't have to change lanes--if only everyone got out of THEIR lane.
When I see someone moving in an out of the middle lane coming up at a greater speed I make sure to move out of the left lane by speeding up to complete my passing. Courtesy and attitudes is what it's all about.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
MA drivers: Inconsiderate
RI drivers: Inept
CT drivers: In LaLa Land (worst left-lane hoggers in the nation).
As someone who drives a lot, in many regions, I "crossed the bridge" years ago: I just plain don't let anyone get to me, no matter how ignorant or poor a driver. Turn up the radio and think of floating around in my boat with a big 'ol largemouth bass on the line. Life is way too short to worry about morons.
What I'm getting at here is that it's usually not excessive speed that causes an accident, it's somebody running a red light, failing to yield right-of-way, changing lanes without turning. THOSE things are what usually cause the accidents Speed might exacerbate the severity of the accident, but it was the other action that caused it.
Of course, you can argue that had one person not been speeding, then perhaps they might have had time to react to the red light runner, the idiotic lane changer, the moron who pulled out from a side street without looking, etc.
What I'm getting at is that, seriously, it's not just speed that causes accidents. Think about it...if people practiced better lane discipline, learned to stop at stop signs and red lights, not pull out in front of cars that are going faster than them, etc, then it would be safer to speed.
Unfortunately, I don't think the typical American driver will ever evolve to that point though, where their driving becomes skillful enough that it DOES make it safe to speed.
Okay, I'll stifle now. I'm just rambling on, and playing devil's advocate a bit :-)
Or maybe one where the vehicle wraps around a guard rail, and have it penetrate it so hard that the sheetmetal is left intact...where it bursts into a huge fireball while having passer-by's/rubberneckers gawk at the beauty of burning metals.
Or one where I wish they are drifting into their sleep and just drive off the road, as their vehicle methodically crosses the grassy median and smashes head on inyo an 18 wheeler with a shiny chrome grill/cow catcher.
Or moments where you just hope one of their wheels explodes at high speed, where they aren't able to counter control the vehicle... where it flips and rolls over no less than 10 times, and ends up hanging by one tire off a bridge with a 100ft drop, overlooking jagged rocks down below, where one snap might spell doom, if the previous 10 cart-wheels didn't.
Yes... I too have pleasants thoughts to pass the time.
The proof that not keeping right kills is that the most dangerous situation is forcing someone to pass on the right becaus you are hogging the left lane. This is merely one condition of why hogging the left lane is very dangerous. The proof is the lane discipline on the autobahn with fatalities within plus or minus 10% of US fatalities and NO SPEED LIMIT.
So, it's dangerous for the speeder to change lanes to pass, but it's not dangerous for the people already in the left lane to change lanes over and then back so the speeder can continue on violating the law?
>autobahn
I don't believe the autobahn is here in the US. Does the autobahn go through downtown Cincinnati? Driving here is different than the autobahn. I55 from far suburbs into downtown wasn't like the autobahn. 76 into Philly from VAlley Forge didn't have many open stetches. Forget the autobahn comparisons; they're not reasonable.
But I have noticed BWM and Mercedes drivers sometimes seem to want to feel like they're driving on an open highway through the wide open forests between major cities. Grin...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I guess it is OK to kill/injure people so long as your wife gets the treatment she needs. No wonder people are buying the biggest/heaviest tanks they can afford.
If I'm rushing my wife or child to the ER and some jackass decides to play cop, you can bet your you-know-what I'll do whatever it takes to get there. Would I go out of my way to cause an accident? Of course not. I'm a man who takes the path of least resistance. But lets say we're on a two lane road... I try to pass, and they block me. Guess what: they're going into a ditch and no, I don't give a damn.
This is precisely why only COPS should try to impose rules on the road. It's not your job, and it's not mine. You have absolutely no idea why I'm speeding or trying to pass... not that it's any of your business in the first place.
And the flip side to that? You have absolutely no idea why he is doing what he appears to be doing. May be he is just distracted.
And, MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, while you are pulling your stunt, it is very possible that someone completely innocent, who just happened to be on the road at the same time will get hurt.
It is just amazing to me that you, presumably WITHOUT any education in high speed driving or impacts, are willing to play GOD and maime or kill someone. Call 911 and sit tight at home.
"And the flip side to that? You have absolutely no idea why he is doing what he appears to be doing. May be he is just distracted.".
That's better than speeding????
But please understand, I in no way support "left lane campers" - I am just saying that the Autobahn cannot be compared to US highways.
And, I made that argument when? My point was that people do not deserve to get killed by a stunt driver when they are simply distracted. Perhaps you disagree.
Now, regarding 911. You have NO IDEA what the circumstances are of the emergency. Maybe I'm not even AT home. Maybe I don't have a cell phone. Maybe a phone isn't available. Maybe the situation is such that waiting for the ambulance would be a death sentence (and spare me the forthcoming comment on how driving erratically is a death sentence).
The fact is, there are some situations where one MUST get from A to B NOW. If and when I'm in that situation, I will do so as quickly as possible while remaining in control of my vehicle. If someone forces me (read: FORCES ME, LEAVES ME ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE) to run them off the road, then I'll do it.
You seem to think that I'd resort to such a maneuver right off the bat. I most certainly would not. I would exhaust all other options first. But if it becomes apparent that someone needs to be physically moved or my wife (or child) is going is going to die, the decision is obvious. If you disagree, you'll understand once you have kids.
The NHTSA used to routinely publish these statistics, but perhaps it was either pointed out to them that this might be oxymoronic to their long time and term advertising campaign of "SPEED KILLS"
Actually the same agency when the national speed limit was 55 mph, predicted MASSIVE increases in fatalities (and accidents) if the national speed limit was raised to 65 mph.
EXACTLY the OPPOSITE occurred. The national speed limit is at 65 mph and in some areas 70-75 mph is the law. The highway system per mile driven is the safest and has THE LOWEST fatality RATE ever since they have been keeping these records. This is even more stark because: 1. more miles driven 3 more trips are taken by passenger vehicle 4 more drivers 5 more cars 6 higher speed limits.
I don't know where you are from, but in the South and up the East coast, there are hundreds of miles of freeway that can easily support 100 mph cruising. I'm sure you aren't gonna go that speed through a metropolitan area but there are a lot on miles between cities.
Maybe some of us need to actually DO some travelling on the open road and experience some 80-90 mph driving on an open 2 lane highway with light traffic. Nothing is more infuriating than to have to happen upon some idiot who won't complete a simple pass for miles. That's just inconsiderate and my speed is not affecting his "safety" in any way.
That's the point. You don't know if you will be in control when you deliberately hit someone.
If you disagree, you'll understand once you have kids.
I do and I do. That is why I do not want someone with an attitude like yours to run into my child.
But it's okay for you to play cop and run them off the road so you can do what you wish to do. Isn't that a double standard?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
1. Are the drivers in a given "pack" aware of their surroundings?
2. Are the drivers in a given "pack" doing their part to keep with the flow and allow others to pass as needed?
3. Are the drivers in a given "pack" doing their part to make life easy for everyone around them (signals, keeping right, no cut-offs, etc)?
I think these three things are FAR more important than the actual speed of the vehicles, in most cases (bad weather, severe conjestion aside).
Look at the Autobahn, for example. A prime example of sheer automotive efficiency at work.... and it works because the drivers recognize what it takes to make it work. Last time I checked, they were going a little more than 65MPH
So accidents are just that...accidents.
Keep control of your kid and I'll keep control of my vehicle. Deal?
Terrible analogy. Running them off the road isn't "playing cop". I'm not running them off the road to punish them or to penalize them. I'm doing it as a last resort because I have a passenger who's life is at stake.
No one has a right to deliberately hit another driver to clear the way even under an emergency.
So let's put a few more lives at stake. Excellent point!
If the passenger is in a needy state, you're not going to be able administer to their needs, cpr, compression to stop bleeding, helping deliver baby, while driving the car.
I our area we have an EMT squad who be at the door in 90 seconds and will deliver much better care starting two minutes after I call than I could do doing a 10-15 minute drive to 3 different hospitals. Plus they have lights and siren or can administer good medical assistance until a helicopter arrives in approx 8 minutes.
That is the wise person's choice rather than running others off the road. Doesn't seem to be adult-like thinking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Under some rare, special, extreme circumstances, I would do it.
"So let's put a few more lives at stake. Excellent point!"
Well, if you ask me, the person who's made it a point to play cop has already made that decision for themselves, myself, and my wife/child. They made the decision, not me. I'm not going to cruise behind them with someone who's bleeding out beside me just because it's safer for THEM. I could give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about THEM at that point.
"If they can be a jerk, then so can you."
I can't say I agree with that... again, I want to emphasize that the actions I'm describing are not meant to be retaliatory, bully-ish, or anything of the sort. It's an absolute LAST RESORT, and certainly not anything I've had to do in the past. My original comments on the matter were in response to another post and not meant to say "if someone screws with me on the road when I'm in a hurry, I'm going to cause a 19 car pile-up". It was a quick comment that was representative of feelings on a rather complex subject.
To justify pushing someone off the road to get to the ER, a lot of things must happen first:
- An ambulance was out of the question, for whatever reason
- My wife's/child's life is in danger
- The other vehicle has made it absolutely impossible to pass/escape.
It's only under these conditions that I would consider such a move... but yes, I make no bones about the fact that I would, in fact, consider it.
Well that's fantastic... for YOU. I've already said that this all assumes that access to an ambulence doesn't exist. It's a moot point. For one, an ambulence can't be at my door in less than 15 minutes.
But what if we're not at home and don't even have access to a phone? What's your "adult-like", "wise" solution then? Not to be sarcastic and flip, but you're not considering the whole picture that I've described.
Given the choice, I'd MUCH rather have an EMT tend to the needs of the injured and get us there quicker and safer. In some cases, though, it's not an option. THOSE are the cases to which I'm referring.
I have also been 110-120 in a police car (coded response, etc) in a semi crowded freeway traffic. Even with the flashing lights and sirens there are literally clueless LLCers.