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Around here (DC area), most LLC's are clueless even when the ambulance is in their rear view mirror with lights and siren. They always look so surprised when the rescue squad, police, etc pass them on the right. Like where did 'he' come from?
Personally, that is why I pass with whatever the situation dictates.
What most LLC defenders fail to acknowledge is good accident free driving is really about min and maximum empty space. This means fore and AFT, side to side etc. I do not tail gate because; how can you accelerate when you are 2 feet off someone's bumper??? I do not travel side to side at the same speed with another vehicle. He or I might need the extra room to maneuver or just plain make a lane discipline mistake.
...that should stop LLC's is again back to the speedometer argument. Let's say your speedometer reads 3 MPH over true speed (easily within new car limits) and the guy behind you is reading 3 MPH under true speed. The LLC is going to intentially block traffic because he - by God - is doing the damn speed limit (while really doing, say 62 in a 65) and these "maniacs" or "bullies" behind him can just suck it up.
Meanwhile the guy behind him thinks he doing the speed limit (while really doing, say 68 in a 65) and not trying to do anything illegal (not even speeding) but the guy blocking him is going 6 MPH slower.
But I'm guessing these guys all have those, accurate to the MPH, up to 70 MPH, constantly maintained speedometers that I've been wanting installed in my car.
Im pretty much a lurker here but I have to respond.
tylerbj, I drive the same Columbus Ohio roads you do.
Please describe your vehicle in detail so I can give you lots of room when you are on your way to the hospital.
Otherwise, if you want me out of your way, I'm going to assume that you are one of the many arrogant, impatient, selfish speeders I see every day, who only want other drivers out of their way so they can go as fast as they want.
If you can even consider any justification for metal to metal contact, and would make such a move when your loved ones are injured, you are someone I want to stay far away from.
Why dont you just carry a gun so you can shoot to kill me if you need me out of your way?
I can predict the response: Oh, thats outrageous, no one is dicussing that here.
But that's exactly what you would be doing if you operate your vehicle deliberately to cause an accident.
If any of you disagree, you have never been in an "accident" that was a result of an intentional action. I have and it is not fun, nor was it a good time for the at-fault driver when the legal paperwork was done.
Yep, reality sucks big time, folks. But you all just keep talking about your little fantasy worlds, where you can push other cars around and cause accidents. Keep posting about how righteous it is to break 3 laws to try to influence another driver to obey one law so you can break a law, all of which makes the highways safer. It all makes for some darn interesting reading.
since I haven't found out yet, how much does that special speedometer service cost? Do they just calibrate the existing one, or do they install a completely new unit?
A lot of you are getting caught up in the example I stated about rushing a loved one to the hospital. Perhaps ambulances / professionals are not an option, for example, if you just found out your spouse suffered a heart attack, and you're driving on your own to see them.
The point is that there could be a very valid (or at LEAST understandable) reason for the person's rush.
I'm going to do a bit of a 180 and approach this from a different angle: REGARDLESS of why that person is speeding, it's in your best interest to get OUT of the way and let that person by.
If I believe someone is driving dangerously, then I want as much space between myself and him as possible. Therefore if his cruising speed is slower than me, I'll pass them asap, and if his cruising speed is faster than me, then I'll let him pass me asap so that we can start putting distance between us. (this, btw, is one reason why people who do not maintain consistent speeds on the freeway annoy me)
Additionally, by blocking a speeder in, you're likely raising tempers, of the speeder and possibly anyone else caught in the mess as well. Quickened blood pulses are ALWAYS undesirable and dangerous on the road... once again, REGARDLESS of how justified or unjustified the speeder's actions may be. It's much better to just swallow your pride, let him by, and forget about it. If, as you believe, that the person is driving dangerously or too fast, then it will catch up to him someday, hopefully far from you.
Trying to teach a lesson on the roads just NEVER works. Whether this is a tailgater trying to teach an LLC or an LLC trying to teach a speeder. It's best to just shake your head, get BY the situation asap, maybe grumble to yourself a little, and then put it behind you.
Not so muhc a car-car story. But I was walking to work this morning nad crossing a cross walk where a back had occurred. A man was trying to make a right through the crosswalk I was entering when another car started to move around him to let traffic behind that car go straight.
1st guy turning right gets pissed that he is almost being cut in front of so he slams on his gas to jump in front almost hitting me and two other folks walking through the crosswalk. Ridiculous. If people get that worked up, they should really think about taking the bus.
since I haven't found out yet, how much does that special speedometer service cost? Do they just calibrate the existing one, or do they install a completely new unit?
Exactly. These LLC advocates have no idea what speed they are actually going.
What most LLC defenders fail to acknowledge is good accident free driving is really about min and maximum empty space. This means fore and AFT, side to side etc... I do not travel side to side at the same speed with another vehicle. He or I might need the extra room to maneuver or just plain make a lane discipline mistake.
Another good point. Why do you want to just camp five feet away from another two-ton moving object?
LLCs tend to force traffic into herds. When no one can pass, and more and more faster-moving cars approach, then you have a traffic jam on the freeway. Now you are surrounded on all sides with absolutely no room to maneuver at all without causing a wreck.
For people who observe the practices such as common courtesy, none of this is an issue. If you simply just use the left lane for what it's for, there's no discussion to be had.
I'm sorry you had an accident with someone who intentionally caused it. I don't know the circumstances, so I'm not going to try to draw conclusions.
However, if I try to pass you and you go out of your way to be a jerk and impede my progress, AND I just happen to be in a life-or-death emergency, we just might have contact.
But anyway, I'd like to thank you for passing total and complete judgement on me: calling me impatient, arrogant, etc. I didn't realize you could come to know me so well after only a few posts. I wish I had your deep insight.
I get quite nervous in packs. Everyone makes driving mistakes every now and then, no matter how attention and courteous they try to be. By keeping distance between vehicles (front to back, side to side), you build into the situation the ability for people to make mistakes without causing accidents. I know someone who is most comfortable when driving alongside another vehicle. I will never understand that. What if one of them needs to make a sudden movement to the left or right? I remain in the center lane as often as possible, while attempting to keep clear both the left and right sides. This allows me the maximum number of "outs".
In my opinion, the behaviors that most contribute to accidents in my area are LLCs, "multitasking" behind the wheel, and cavalier attitudes about driving right next to other vehicles for miles on end.
seminole: It's free if you know the secret handshake.
benderofbows: You assume I advocate LLC'ing, where do you get that from? I have not posted on this topic for many months.
tyler: I did not call you impatient and arrogant. I said that I might asssume that you were, if you attempt to run into me as you described.
LLC'ing is just not something I see all that often. When I do see it, if I can, I go around on the right. I pass 'em like I was passing on a two lane road, I learned this back in the 80's when the limit was 55 and there actually were alot of LLC's. I did this twice the other day when I was running late and drove 80-85 to work instead of my usual 70-75.
Well actually, I tried to drive 80. But any number of times I had to slow down for other cars. Gee, maybe I should have run them off the road or something. They all didnt move immediatly out of my way. After all, I could have had an emergency, how could they have known that I did not?
Im being sarcastic in case you cant tell.
"if I try to pass you and you go out of your way to be a jerk and impede my progress, AND I just happen to be in a life-or-death emergency, we just might have contact."
Thats fine. I wont argue with you and I do appreciate your dedication to your family. But you need to be realize what the possible consequences would be. You could kill or injure me, yourself, your loved one, or others. It could ruin you finallcially. You could spend time in jail. Like I said its a good fantasy, but I deal in reality anymore.
Lunch is over, I gotta get some work done.....later ppl.
Exactly. Say one day you are driving down a four-lane highway. You come up on an LLC, in formation directly beside another driver. Then some cars come up on you; both lanes fill up. Where can you go? You're STUCK in the PACK.
And thus, the catch to driving on the highways: the people who need to be made to understand "Slow Traffic Keep Right" are too busy on their phone, fidgeting with their CDs, putting on their lipstick, etc, to be bothered by pesky roadsigns. They never even see them.
My father in law (we'll call him Fil, for short) is one of the worst drivers ON THE PLANET. He's an attorney, and a successful one at that. But when he drives, he LITERALLY forgets what he's doing half the time. He'll start talking to you, and he'll be looking RIGHT AT YOU the whole time... nevermind that road! He'll get in the left lane to pass and before he even completes the maneuver, he's forgotten what the heck he was doing. Then he'll forget to press the accelerator and drop down to 55MPH (in the fast lane, of course). We'll get every dirty gesture imaginable, finally someone will get the guts to remind him he's DRIVING, and he'll just go "oops..." and then pull over into the center lane and jump back up to 80MPH.
He's the epitome of the bad driver.
On several occassions, my wife and I have had to follow him on long trips... and let me tell you, it's an absolute NIGHTMARE. He forgets that we're even there and he makes all these crazy moves (you know, like when he remembers what he's doing) and it's all we can do to follow safely.
It's a joke in the family, but it really bothers me. I harp to my wife about it quite a bit, but he just kind of shrugs it off as one of his own "quirks" that makes him unique.
We made it through that stretch without imploding... I think. Let's be careful about making things about each other and stick to the nuts OUT THERE.
Speaking of which, I got to save my 16 year old from a surprise behind the wheel this morning in a parking lot. We were leaving the shopping center and driving along in front of the store fronts, looking to make a right past the end of the building. Up ahead, in front of the last store, I see a beater parked along the curb in the fire lane, engine running, but no driver inside. I give my daughter the heads up to be careful and as we approach, the driver runs out of the store and jumps in his car. We're starting to go past him and without looking, he guns his engine, chirps the tires, and goes straight across our intended turn to pull his car into a parking spot some 3 car lengths straight ahead of him. My 16 year old kept me from getting out of the car to verbally abuse this moron by driving us calmly off.
I think of all of the possible driving situations that exist (bad weather, interstates, city traffic, etc...), parking lots scare me the most. Too many people going too many different directions - some of which in reverse too.
In physics this is known as bunching, which occurs when particles travel at approximately the same speed. Cars follow the same pattern even though driven by supposedly intelligent life. The safest place to travel is between packs. If you break through you will see a space before you get to the next pack. Adjust you speed to stay between the packs and eventualy, not very long, you will also become a pack. Why? Because particles traveling at the same speed cause bunching. Lane discipline, in which the left lane is used only to pass, significantly reduces the number of cars in the bunching. Of course this is way over the head of left lane hogs who only function under inane slogans such as "speed kills"
Packs happen. I have seen it everywhere I travel: in the middle of West Virginia mountains. In between Cincinatti and Columbus and Cleveland. In Texas 200 miles from a city of any size. In the mountains of Virginia and Pennsylvania. And on my commute home every day.
This is the other half of the answer: There are simply more vehicles on the road, traveling at increasing speed differentials, often on the same amount of lanes that were there 20 or 40 years ago.
So, you got more LLC's, more old folks, more slowpokes, more semi-trucks, more average guys in the pack, and alot more speeders who want to go faster than the pack. You got trucks doing 55, grandmas doing 60, while the pack moves at 70. Then there is a good chunk of folks want to do 75-80, and the not insignificant number who want to do 80+.
Too many vehicles, too often, to allow for uninterrupted travel in the left lane at the speed of your choosing for more than a few minutes or miles.
But it is the LLC, or left lane CAMPER, the one who decides to take his sweet time in the passing lane, that poses the greatest threat because they take the most time in the left lane and thus cause the most "bunching." Even if, in your example, Grandma who is doing 60 passes the truck going 55, she shouldn't be in that lane long enough to cause significant bunching or the dangerous, extended time-length packs.
It's the idiot who wants to sit right in the left lane beside the truck at 55, or right beside Grandma at 60, who causes these packs.
imidazol97: Speed does kill. Do you have proof that speeding does NOT cause deaths at a higher rate than driving at a normal speed?
No it doesn't. We've had this discussion before, and you produced no proof whatsoever that higher speeds cause more fatalities on interstate highways.
When the federal government measured accident rates for various drivers in the mid-1980s, it found that those who drive 10-15 mph faster than the flow of traffic (note, not the speed limit, but the flow of traffic, which on the interstates, is always higher than the posted speed limit) had the lowest accident rate. Who had the most accidents? Try those who were driving the SLOWEST.
When the federal government repealed the nationwide, 65 mph speed limit in December 1995, several states immediately went to 70 and 75 mph speed limits. Montana abolished its speed limit altogether, and went to the "reasonable and prudent" rule. Thus, we had a one-year period to examine the effects of higher speeds on highway safety.
The timeframe is important, as no state can make dramatic changes to its entire road network within a year, and the entire vehicle fleet does not turn over with that time. Thus, any improvement in the fatality rate can't be laid at the feet of better roads or safer vehicles.
Ralph Nader and Joan Claybrook ran around squawking that abolishing the 65 mph limit would result in 6,000 extra fatalities. Fortunately, they were wrong. When the results were tallied for 1996, the fatality rate had dropped to 1.69 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles driven, down from 1.73 the year before.
Interestingly, some of the states with the highest rates of declines have been those with 75 mph speed limits. Utah, for example, has experienced a 27.7 decline in fatalities. Nevada's fatalities have declined by 23.7 percent.
The idea that driving at a higher rate of speed is, in and of itself, enough to cause more deaths has been thoroughly discredited by this point.
I'm amused at those who go into hysterics at the idea of either yielding or, heaven forbid, speeding up to get around a vehicle to let faster traffic pass. (Apparently, some vehicles must automatically detonate when the speedometer needle hits 80 mph.)
But I keep forgetting - having a line of faster moving traffic piling up behind a slow-moving vehicle is far safer than ANYONE going so much as ONE MPH over the posted speed limit.
You are quoting some very specific numbers. Is that study available somewhere on the web? I am not disbelieving you: it's just that I have seen so many numbers telling different stories that I don't know who to believe.
On another note, guess who I see,of late, as LLCs in increasing numbers? 18 wheelers! And, mostly belonging to the two most famous overnight shipping companies.
The national figures are taken from the Federal Highway Administration. The state-specific figures are taken from an article in the National Review Online, December 2, 2003 edition.
Had a fun close call today. Was travelling behind a c. 96 Civic hatch on a two lane non divided state highway posted at 50mph, the pack of traffic was going about 45mph. The airheaded young woman in the Civic was weaving a little, apparently distracted by some food or a phone. Well, she must have received a call or choked, because out of the blue she slammed on her brakes, coming to a stop from 45 very fast. I was able to avoid her as I wasn't tailgating, and the big brakes on a 126 are very effective. But the car behind me, a loud rodded c. 75 Chevy truck, locked up and smoked and screeched and slid sideways behind me, I moved over just incase he wasn't going to stop. I wasn't hit, thankfully. Then the bimbo in the Civic floors it, like she knew she piseed some people off...but her car wasn't that fast, so her, me and that truck were together again very soon. About a mile ahead I pulled up beside her at a light, as she was in a turn lane. I shook my head, and she gave me the "what did I do?" look. I turned off the road and the guy in the truck pulled up beside her, and screamed at her. I hope she pulls another move like that and ends up in a ditch or with a semi in her backseat.
"But it is the LLC, or left lane CAMPER, the one who decides to take his sweet time in the passing lane, that poses the greatest threat because they take the most time in the left lane and thus cause the most "bunching."
I don't beleive this to be the case very often. Im sure someone somewhere has done a study, but to me its simple logic. More cars, traveling at greater speed differentials, in the same amount of lanes, means more passing manuevers are made by people going all speeds. So cars are in the fast lane more often.
And from what I have seen, the dangerous bunching is as much the fault of impatient drivers who dont want to slow down for the line of cars ahead of them. They hunt left and right, as if this will do anything. They tailgate, and often tailgate in groups, (I watch these people very carefully) and then one will pass on the right, only to soon catch up to the traffic in the right lane that everyone in the left lane is passing. Then they merge in, often at dangerously close distances, causing chain reaction braking.
This happens alot and its often not because of LLC'ing, its because someone up ahead is driving a little slower than the fast lane but is passing a semi or three or seven, and he is doing this legally and safely.
Now I have at times seen situations like this where someone does camp and does not move over, and the cars behind him won't go around on the right. But generally the camper is going 65 or a little faster.
The problem goes to the frantic speeder who doesn't want to move with the traffic flow or within a few mph of the traffic flow. Then when they reach an obstacle the obstacle is the problem rather than their not traveling at or close to the rate of the other traffic.
Choice of law: This type of LLD is the one who never moves out of the left lane even though everyone else is supposed to obey that particular law saying to move right except to pass but we're not supposed to notice the speed violation causing the whole scenario.
"I shook my head, and she gave me the "what did I do?" look."
People like that really tick me off. They nearly cause a pile up on the road, and rather than apologizing with a simple gesture, they get all self-rigtheous and indignant.
No one's perfect, obviously... and I've made my fair share of blunders... but when I make them, I am VERY embarrassed and VERY grateful for those around me who prevented an accident by quick thinking. Even if these people are pissed at me, I'll wave and say 'sorry'. It's MY fault and I probably scared the piss out of several people.
The idiots that get angry when people honk at them (you know, to wake them from their sleep) or act like they didn't do anything wrong since no one actually DIED as a result of their (temporary?) stupidy are the ones I truly despise.
Simple gestures mean a lot. If I am overtaking a vehicle ahead of me in the #1 lane and he/she signals and or moves over to let me by, I usually try to wave as I get slightly in front within his/her eyesight.
I agree. I'm going to go out on a limb and risk getting flamed...
I have nothing against senior citizens. Hopefully, some day, I'll even be one. But some of these folks just can't admit to themselves that it's time to give up a little personal freedom in the name of their own safety and the safety of others on the road.
The VAST majority (99.9%) of my near-death experiences on the road can be attributed to confused, unpredictable, unskilled senior drivers. I'm not trying to attack them, personally. But the fact is that there comes a time when your reflexes diminish to the point where you simply cannot make quick, sound judgements on the road.
I could write a short novel on my experiences, but what would be the point. We've all had them. For the sake of making myself feel better, I'll detail one or two.
There's a road by the Scioto River in central Ohio that heads north from Dublin to Delaware. I was traveling north on this road at the speed limit (50MPH). A senior citizen in a van just up the road comes to his stop sign on the road perpendicular to mine. He's turning left/south (into the direction I'm traveling). He slows down to about 5MPH, looks to his right, and decides "hey, if it's clear from the north, it must be clear from the south!" and he just goes. I SLAM on my breaks in my Jeep Wrangler to avoid KILLING him. I lay on the horn at the same time, but through all of this, he never even glances at me. I honestly don't even know if he realized how close he came to becoming paint on my front end.
Another time, I'm traveling on a 3 lane road (1 oncoming lane, and 2 lanes for my direction). A caddy with a ~70 year old man has been riding my blind spot for some time. I've tried shaking him, but he's intent on sitting there. He and I are ALONE on this whole road, so I figure "no big deal". Well his lane ends in about a quarter mile. I speed up by about 5MPH to give him room to pull into my lane. He keeps with me. I start thinking to myself "this could get ugly". Finally the merge begins. I'm desperately trying to make space for him, as he's quickly running out of road. Finally, he juices it, gets right beside me, and just starts coming over. He's not even looking at me... just slowly drifting into me. I LAY on the horn. He looks over at me, smiles at me and waves. It's not a smirky, "F U" smile or anything like that... just the kind of gesture you make when you see your neighbor in the morning when you grab the paper. I'm pushed into oncoming traffic so I slam on the breaks so I can get in behind him before I get killed. This [non-permissible content removed] had NO IDEA what was going on, and he damn near killed me.
I have many stories very similar to this. At a certain age, people should have to get their reflexes checked ON THE ROAD under REAL CONDITIONS. The state should not be afraid to revoke licenses of incapable drivers.
Actually on the whole I am pretty enthused about the fact: per mile driven, USA roads are the safest in its recorded history. Can we do better? OH ABSOLUTELY!
American news is usually pretty slanted in presentation for its maximum shock power. This usually means putting the worst possible slant on things!!!
The real buried "good news" is the nation's rates are made up of 50 or so individual state statistics. So unless you happen to drive in all 50 states, you really need only worry about (fatality and accident rates) the area/s in the state/s that YOU drive!! Obviously the individual rates are usually better!!!!!
a) left-lane dawdlers (or even speeders who simply will not move over when another car comes up behind them); and b) lack of use of turn signals. The latter is especially infuriating for pedestrians, joggers, etc. It seems that signaling for a turn is becoming more and more rare, especially right turns. Don't know if they don't teach/emphasize this in driving school anymore, but the cops NEVER ticket anyone for failing to signal.
Kmag thinks that people are supposed to hang out in the laft lane. But that's not the case at any speed. You are supposed to pass and pullover.
If you are moving significantly faster and constantly passing in the left lane that's also not a problem unless and untill someone driving faster comes up behind you. Pullover, let them pass and then return to the left lane and continue passing. It is simple logic and courtesy. This will eliminate anyone from weaving in and out of traffic and considerably reduce the bunching which puts everyone at greater risk. In addition if you drive this way you will see someone coming up from the distance and you will have plenty of time to find an opening in the center lane to allow them to pass on the left. If you had ever driven in nations with lane discipline you would know how well this works.
Cops can be idiots. I see them breaking every law on the road on a regular basis. Hell, sometimes they're the worst drivers on the road! I've had cops cut me off, I've had cops nearly hit me from the side as they change lanes without looking, I see them not using turn signals, I even saw one a few weeks ago with a tail light out (that was so precious, I took a picture).
They run red lights, they do rolling stops (if they bother to slow at all), they speed in my RESIDENTIAL neighborhood, etc etc etc.
They wonder why they don't get much respect.
When a cop comes up to my car, leans on it, looks down on me in a condescending manner, calls me "buddy", and procedes to lecture me on why it's not okay to go 0.000001MPH through a stop sign, he'll have to forgive me for not calling him "Sir" or "Officer". Afterall, one of his "buddies" blew the roof off my house last night doing 45MPH down my street.
I'm a law-abiding citizen. No record whatsoever, and a near spotless driving record. So when I get pulled over by a rookie with a chip on his shoulder for doing the slowest rolling stop possible on a deserted country road and he starts treating me like the wife-beating crackhead he saw last night on COPS, I tend to become less than "respectful". I'll treat him with the same amount of respect he treats me. I'm not going to eat his *** with a spoon just because someone foolishly gave him a badge and a radar gun.
If I seem hostile towards cops, it's because I am. I have had one bad experience after another with them, whether it be personal or from afar. The first bad one I had personally was when I was 17 years old. I was driving my mom's Honda Accord. I was pretty much your typical goodie-two-shoes student, clean cut, etc. It was a Friday night and I was doing the speed limit. I performed a lane change to make a turn but didn't use my signal. I didn't cut anyone off, but there was a cop behind me. He pulls me over. It's about 10pm. Nervous as hell, I shut the car off without rolling down my windows first. This cop and his partner procede to BANG on both sides of the car with their huge flashlights, all while screaming at me to open the window. I turn the car on and roll the window down. Then "back-up" arrives. Now it's four cops vs. me. I give them all the information they ask for (this is my first time getting pulled over, btw). While one of them is back at the car, the other 3 procede to threaten me with things like "we're going to impound your car if you jerk around with us" and "we could haul you off to jail for that stunt you pulled back there". I got the courage to actually ask WHY I had been pulled over. "You didn't use your turn signal... are you just some drunk punk out on a joy ride?"
What a bunch of asses.
I did get to honk at a cop on the freeway a few months ago. I'm driving in the center lane and he cuts right in front of me. He would have hit my front end had I not slammed on the breaks. By sheer reflex, I honked. He immediately goes back into the far right lane, drops beside me and gives me this look like "do I need to pull you over you smartass?". I just looked at him back, and said while shaking my head "do you know how to drive???". He just shook his head as if in disgust that I would dare question his authority, and then he sped off at Mach 2, weaving in and out of traffic.
"Simple gestures mean a lot. If I am overtaking a vehicle ahead of me in the #1 lane and he/she signals and or moves over to let me by, I usually try to wave as I get slightly in front within his/her eyesight"
A very commendable gesture that is coming more prevalent these days which is nice. That always makes my driving a little nicer when people do that...
imidazol97: Speed does kill. grbeck:No it doesn't.
I'm continually amazed at the number of times such an obviously false assertion is claimed on these boards.
Common sense tells you that:
Speed influences crashes in four basic ways:
- It increases the distance a vehicle travels from when a driver detects an emergency until the driver reacts - It increases the distance needed to stop a vehicle once an emergency is perceived. - Crash severity increases by the square of the speed so that, when speed increases from 40 to 60 mph, speed goes up 50 percent while the energy released in a crash more than doubles. - Higher crash speeds reduce the ability of vehicles, restraint systems, and roadway hardware such as guardrails, barriers, and impact attenuators to protect occupants.
I often speed myself, and I realize the risks involved. I try very hard to do it as safely as I can, but I do not pretend that I am not increasing risk to me and others.
And I am continually plagued by LLCs but if they are going at the speed limit, I do not consider harrassment justified...including using my brights. I will pass on the right when I can, but I do not assume I can "bully" a law abiding driver.
When the federal government measured accident rates for various drivers in the mid-1980s, it found that those who drive 10-15 mph faster than the flow of traffic...had the lowest accident rate.
That study was discredited, as the article I linked to states. Most of those involved self-reported speeds and otherwise exaggerated the number of slow moving vehicles.
OTOH, I certainly agree that not moving over when a faster vehicle approaches from behind (when reasonable) is not only considerate, but useful. I'm always happier to let someone (even) faster go ahead and be the rabbit for the policia to catch.
..."I'm continually amazed at the number of times such an obviously false assertion is claimed on these boards."...
While I dont't disagree about your characterization of how speed influences crashes; if SPEED were the dominant or one of the guiding variables, one would expect the European (sort of the Euro NHTSA) Accident and Fatality rates to be statistically much higher than our own: in fact it is NOT!!
li_sailor: I'm continually amazed at the number of times such an obviously false assertion is claimed on these boards.
I'm even more amazed that someone not only ignore years of traffic safety statistics to defend the "speed kills" nonsense, but would use tortured data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) in attempt attempt to defend it.
That report proves nothing, and is contradicted by recorded fatality rates over the past several years.
li_sailor: Common sense tells you that: Speed influences crashes in four basic ways:
- It increases the distance a vehicle travels from when a driver detects an emergency until the driver reacts - It increases the distance needed to stop a vehicle once an emergency is perceived. - Crash severity increases by the square of the speed so that, when speed increases from 40 to 60 mph, speed goes up 50 percent while the energy released in a crash more than doubles. - Higher crash speeds reduce the ability of vehicles, restraint systems, and roadway hardware such as guardrails, barriers, and impact attenuators to protect occupants.
That's a nice recitation of high school physics, but never proves that higher speeds INCREASE the likelihood of having a crash, unless we take IIHS' word for it. A driver must get into the crash in the first place for those things to matter. The only relationship between speed limits and fatality rates so far is that as speed limits rise, fatality rates fall.
If, however, a driver makes it habit to run into bridge abutments, vehicles, or other objects, I'd suggest just staying home altogether, or taking the bus. Such a driver has some serious problems.
The IIHS report contains this nugget: According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), speeding is one of the most prevalent reported factors associated with crashes. Speed is a factor in 30 percent of all fatal crashes, killing an average of 1,000 Americans every month. In 1999, more than 12,000 people died in speed-related crashes.
That sounds really bad. Until we look up how NHTSA defines a "speed related" accident.
According to NHTSA, an accident is "speed related" if it includes any of these factors: 1. improper lane changes; 2. following too closely; 3. unsafe passing; 4. inattention; 5. reckless driving; 6. high speed chase (too bad those fleeing felons on America's Scariest Police Chases aren't worried about speed limits); 7. erratic speeds; 8. driving too fast for conditions (not necessarily above the limit); 9. and driving LESS than the posted limit.
According to NHTSA, if someone is driving too slowly, and has a fatal accident, it is defined as speed related. If someone is driving 55 mph in blizzard-like conditions, or during an ice storm, and has a fatal accident, it is considered speed related.
Define any factor broad enough, and you can make it seem like the root of most accidents.
li_sailor: That study was discredited, as the article I linked to states. Most of those involved self-reported speeds and otherwise exaggerated the number of slow moving vehicles.
The IIHS article references a David Solomon study from the 1950s. Unless it can be proven that the federal government simply took that study, dusted it off, and presented it as new evidence in the 1980s, IIHS didn't discredit anything.
The most recent IIHS howler involves a study it cited by the Land Transport Safety Authority of New Zealand. The reports alleges that states that raised their speed limits to 75 mph experienced 38 percent more deaths per 100 million vehicle miles travelled "than expected," based on states that didn't raise the speed limit.
There are HUGE problems with this study.
One, it never says that deaths didn't DECLINE in those states after the adoption of the 75 mph speed limit. (They did, as noted in my prior post.)
Second, comparing the fatalities in one set of states to another is hardly the best method to do this, unless road conditions, driver demographics and weather conditions were roughly the same for both states. Which, they weren't, as the states raising the speed limit to 75 mph were located in the West, while states retaining the speed limit were located largely in the East.
Third, it examined the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles driven for the entire state, which means it included ALL roads, not just those roads where the speed limit was raised.
Torturing data to that extent suggests some analysts at the New Zealand Land Transport Safety Authority once worked in a Hussein-era Iraqi prison.
Comments
Personally, that is why I pass with whatever the situation dictates.
What most LLC defenders fail to acknowledge is good accident free driving is really about min and maximum empty space. This means fore and AFT, side to side etc. I do not tail gate because; how can you accelerate when you are 2 feet off someone's bumper??? I do not travel side to side at the same speed with another vehicle. He or I might need the extra room to maneuver or just plain make a lane discipline mistake.
Meanwhile the guy behind him thinks he doing the speed limit (while really doing, say 68 in a 65) and not trying to do anything illegal (not even speeding) but the guy blocking him is going 6 MPH slower.
But I'm guessing these guys all have those, accurate to the MPH, up to 70 MPH, constantly maintained speedometers that I've been wanting installed in my car.
tylerbj, I drive the same Columbus Ohio roads you do.
Please describe your vehicle in detail so I can give you lots of room when you are on your way to the hospital.
Otherwise, if you want me out of your way, I'm going to assume that you are one of the many arrogant, impatient, selfish speeders I see every day, who only want other drivers out of their way so they can go as fast as they want.
If you can even consider any justification for metal to metal contact, and would make such a move when your loved ones are injured, you are someone I want to stay far away from.
Why dont you just carry a gun so you can shoot to kill me if you need me out of your way?
I can predict the response: Oh, thats outrageous, no one is dicussing that here.
But that's exactly what you would be doing if you operate your vehicle deliberately to cause an accident.
If any of you disagree, you have never been in an "accident" that was a result of an intentional action. I have and it is not fun, nor was it a good time for the at-fault driver when the legal paperwork was done.
Yep, reality sucks big time, folks. But you all just keep talking about your little fantasy worlds, where you can push other cars around and cause accidents. Keep posting about how righteous it is to break 3 laws to try to influence another driver to obey one law so you can break a law, all of which makes the highways safer. It all makes for some darn interesting reading.
The point is that there could be a very valid (or at LEAST understandable) reason for the person's rush.
I'm going to do a bit of a 180 and approach this from a different angle: REGARDLESS of why that person is speeding, it's in your best interest to get OUT of the way and let that person by.
If I believe someone is driving dangerously, then I want as much space between myself and him as possible. Therefore if his cruising speed is slower than me, I'll pass them asap, and if his cruising speed is faster than me, then I'll let him pass me asap so that we can start putting distance between us. (this, btw, is one reason why people who do not maintain consistent speeds on the freeway annoy me)
Additionally, by blocking a speeder in, you're likely raising tempers, of the speeder and possibly anyone else caught in the mess as well. Quickened blood pulses are ALWAYS undesirable and dangerous on the road... once again, REGARDLESS of how justified or unjustified the speeder's actions may be. It's much better to just swallow your pride, let him by, and forget about it. If, as you believe, that the person is driving dangerously or too fast, then it will catch up to him someday, hopefully far from you.
Trying to teach a lesson on the roads just NEVER works. Whether this is a tailgater trying to teach an LLC or an LLC trying to teach a speeder. It's best to just shake your head, get BY the situation asap, maybe grumble to yourself a little, and then put it behind you.
1st guy turning right gets pissed that he is almost being cut in front of so he slams on his gas to jump in front almost hitting me and two other folks walking through the crosswalk. Ridiculous. If people get that worked up, they should really think about taking the bus.
Exactly. These LLC advocates have no idea what speed they are actually going.
Another good point. Why do you want to just camp five feet away from another two-ton moving object?
For people who observe the practices such as common courtesy, none of this is an issue. If you simply just use the left lane for what it's for, there's no discussion to be had.
I'm sorry you had an accident with someone who intentionally caused it. I don't know the circumstances, so I'm not going to try to draw conclusions.
However, if I try to pass you and you go out of your way to be a jerk and impede my progress, AND I just happen to be in a life-or-death emergency, we just might have contact.
But anyway, I'd like to thank you for passing total and complete judgement on me: calling me impatient, arrogant, etc. I didn't realize you could come to know me so well after only a few posts. I wish I had your deep insight.
On a bad day, like in Central CA during so called "TULE FOGS", MULTIPLE vehicle (108) car,truck, bus, etc., pile ups happen with EXTREME regularity.
In my opinion, the behaviors that most contribute to accidents in my area are LLCs, "multitasking" behind the wheel, and cavalier attitudes about driving right next to other vehicles for miles on end.
It's free if you know the secret handshake.
benderofbows:
You assume I advocate LLC'ing, where do you get that from? I have not posted on this topic for many months.
tyler:
I did not call you impatient and arrogant. I said that I might asssume that you were, if you attempt to run into me as you described.
LLC'ing is just not something I see all that often. When I do see it, if I can, I go around on the right. I pass 'em like I was passing on a two lane road, I learned this back in the 80's when the limit was 55 and there actually were alot of LLC's. I did this twice the other day when I was running late and drove 80-85 to work instead of my usual 70-75.
Well actually, I tried to drive 80. But any number of times I had to slow down for other cars. Gee, maybe I should have run them off the road or something. They all didnt move immediatly out of my way. After all, I could have had an emergency, how could they have known that I did not?
Im being sarcastic in case you cant tell.
"if I try to pass you and you go out of your way to be a jerk and impede my progress, AND I just happen to be in a life-or-death emergency, we just might have contact."
Thats fine. I wont argue with you and I do appreciate your dedication to your family. But you need to be realize what the possible consequences would be. You could kill or injure me, yourself, your loved one, or others. It could ruin you finallcially. You could spend time in jail. Like I said its a good fantasy, but I deal in reality anymore.
Lunch is over, I gotta get some work done.....later ppl.
If only the left lane was kept clear...
You assume I advocate LLC'ing, where do you get that from? I have not posted on this topic for many months.
Where did you get that I assumed you specifically were an advocate? I was just referring to all posters in this forum who are advocating LLC'ing.
Now, you can assign number value/s to seconds minutes etc. Perhaps it can even hint at why they post those signs "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS"
"SLOW TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT"
But then, a lot of LLC'ers are clueless and I think some might take the attitude, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up.
My father in law (we'll call him Fil, for short) is one of the worst drivers ON THE PLANET. He's an attorney, and a successful one at that. But when he drives, he LITERALLY forgets what he's doing half the time. He'll start talking to you, and he'll be looking RIGHT AT YOU the whole time... nevermind that road! He'll get in the left lane to pass and before he even completes the maneuver, he's forgotten what the heck he was doing. Then he'll forget to press the accelerator and drop down to 55MPH (in the fast lane, of course). We'll get every dirty gesture imaginable, finally someone will get the guts to remind him he's DRIVING, and he'll just go "oops..." and then pull over into the center lane and jump back up to 80MPH.
He's the epitome of the bad driver.
On several occassions, my wife and I have had to follow him on long trips... and let me tell you, it's an absolute NIGHTMARE. He forgets that we're even there and he makes all these crazy moves (you know, like when he remembers what he's doing) and it's all we can do to follow safely.
It's a joke in the family, but it really bothers me. I harp to my wife about it quite a bit, but he just kind of shrugs it off as one of his own "quirks" that makes him unique.
Speaking of which, I got to save my 16 year old from a surprise behind the wheel this morning in a parking lot. We were leaving the shopping center and driving along in front of the store fronts, looking to make a right past the end of the building. Up ahead, in front of the last store, I see a beater parked along the curb in the fire lane, engine running, but no driver inside. I give my daughter the heads up to be careful and as we approach, the driver runs out of the store and jumps in his car. We're starting to go past him and without looking, he guns his engine, chirps the tires, and goes straight across our intended turn to pull his car into a parking spot some 3 car lengths straight ahead of him. My 16 year old kept me from getting out of the car to verbally abuse this moron by driving us calmly off.
In Texas 200 miles from a city of any size. In the mountains of Virginia and Pennsylvania. And on my commute home every day.
This is the other half of the answer: There are simply more vehicles on the road, traveling at increasing speed differentials, often on the same amount of lanes that were there 20 or 40 years ago.
So, you got more LLC's, more old folks, more slowpokes, more semi-trucks, more average guys in the pack, and alot more speeders who want to go faster than the pack. You got trucks doing 55, grandmas doing 60, while the pack moves at 70. Then there is a good chunk of folks want to do 75-80, and the not insignificant number who want to do 80+.
Too many vehicles, too often, to allow for uninterrupted travel in the left lane at the speed of your choosing for more than a few minutes or miles.
It's the idiot who wants to sit right in the left lane beside the truck at 55, or right beside Grandma at 60, who causes these packs.
No it doesn't. We've had this discussion before, and you produced no proof whatsoever that higher speeds cause more fatalities on interstate highways.
When the federal government measured accident rates for various drivers in the mid-1980s, it found that those who drive 10-15 mph faster than the flow of traffic (note, not the speed limit, but the flow of traffic, which on the interstates, is always higher than the posted speed limit) had the lowest accident rate. Who had the most accidents? Try those who were driving the SLOWEST.
When the federal government repealed the nationwide, 65 mph speed limit in December 1995, several states immediately went to 70 and 75 mph speed limits. Montana abolished its speed limit altogether, and went to the "reasonable and prudent" rule. Thus, we had a one-year period to examine the effects of higher speeds on highway safety.
The timeframe is important, as no state can make dramatic changes to its entire road network within a year, and the entire vehicle fleet does not turn over with that time. Thus, any improvement in the fatality rate can't be laid at the feet of better roads or safer vehicles.
Ralph Nader and Joan Claybrook ran around squawking that abolishing the 65 mph limit would result in 6,000 extra fatalities. Fortunately, they were wrong. When the results were tallied for 1996, the fatality rate had dropped to 1.69 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles driven, down from 1.73 the year before.
Interestingly, some of the states with the highest rates of declines have been those with 75 mph speed limits. Utah, for example, has experienced a 27.7 decline in fatalities. Nevada's fatalities have declined by 23.7 percent.
The idea that driving at a higher rate of speed is, in and of itself, enough to cause more deaths has been thoroughly discredited by this point.
I'm amused at those who go into hysterics at the idea of either yielding or, heaven forbid, speeding up to get around a vehicle to let faster traffic pass. (Apparently, some vehicles must automatically detonate when the speedometer needle hits 80 mph.)
But I keep forgetting - having a line of faster moving traffic piling up behind a slow-moving vehicle is far safer than ANYONE going so much as ONE MPH over the posted speed limit.
On another note, guess who I see,of late, as LLCs in increasing numbers? 18 wheelers! And, mostly belonging to the two most famous overnight shipping companies.
I don't beleive this to be the case very often. Im sure someone somewhere has done a study, but to me its simple logic. More cars, traveling at greater speed differentials, in the same amount of lanes, means more passing manuevers are made by people going all speeds. So cars are in the fast lane more often.
And from what I have seen, the dangerous bunching is as much the fault of impatient drivers who dont want to slow down for the line of cars ahead of them. They hunt left and right, as if this will do anything. They tailgate, and often tailgate in groups, (I watch these people very carefully) and then one will pass on the right, only to soon catch up to the traffic in the right lane that everyone in the left lane is passing. Then they merge in, often at dangerously close distances, causing chain reaction braking.
This happens alot and its often not because of LLC'ing, its because someone up ahead is driving a little slower than the fast lane but is passing a semi or three or seven, and he is doing this legally and safely.
Now I have at times seen situations like this where someone does camp and does not move over, and the cars behind him won't go around on the right. But generally the camper is going 65 or a little faster.
The problem goes to the frantic speeder who doesn't want to move with the traffic flow or within a few mph of the traffic flow. Then when they reach an obstacle the obstacle is the problem rather than their not traveling at or close to the rate of the other traffic.
Choice of law:
This type of LLD is the one who never moves out of the left lane even though everyone else is supposed to obey that particular law saying to move right except to pass but we're not supposed to notice the speed violation causing the whole scenario.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
People like that really tick me off. They nearly cause a pile up on the road, and rather than apologizing with a simple gesture, they get all self-rigtheous and indignant.
No one's perfect, obviously... and I've made my fair share of blunders... but when I make them, I am VERY embarrassed and VERY grateful for those around me who prevented an accident by quick thinking. Even if these people are pissed at me, I'll wave and say 'sorry'. It's MY fault and I probably scared the piss out of several people.
The idiots that get angry when people honk at them (you know, to wake them from their sleep) or act like they didn't do anything wrong since no one actually DIED as a result of their (temporary?) stupidy are the ones I truly despise.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I have nothing against senior citizens. Hopefully, some day, I'll even be one. But some of these folks just can't admit to themselves that it's time to give up a little personal freedom in the name of their own safety and the safety of others on the road.
The VAST majority (99.9%) of my near-death experiences on the road can be attributed to confused, unpredictable, unskilled senior drivers. I'm not trying to attack them, personally. But the fact is that there comes a time when your reflexes diminish to the point where you simply cannot make quick, sound judgements on the road.
I could write a short novel on my experiences, but what would be the point. We've all had them. For the sake of making myself feel better, I'll detail one or two.
There's a road by the Scioto River in central Ohio that heads north from Dublin to Delaware. I was traveling north on this road at the speed limit (50MPH). A senior citizen in a van just up the road comes to his stop sign on the road perpendicular to mine. He's turning left/south (into the direction I'm traveling). He slows down to about 5MPH, looks to his right, and decides "hey, if it's clear from the north, it must be clear from the south!" and he just goes. I SLAM on my breaks in my Jeep Wrangler to avoid KILLING him. I lay on the horn at the same time, but through all of this, he never even glances at me. I honestly don't even know if he realized how close he came to becoming paint on my front end.
Another time, I'm traveling on a 3 lane road (1 oncoming lane, and 2 lanes for my direction). A caddy with a ~70 year old man has been riding my blind spot for some time. I've tried shaking him, but he's intent on sitting there. He and I are ALONE on this whole road, so I figure "no big deal". Well his lane ends in about a quarter mile. I speed up by about 5MPH to give him room to pull into my lane. He keeps with me. I start thinking to myself "this could get ugly". Finally the merge begins. I'm desperately trying to make space for him, as he's quickly running out of road. Finally, he juices it, gets right beside me, and just starts coming over. He's not even looking at me... just slowly drifting into me. I LAY on the horn. He looks over at me, smiles at me and waves. It's not a smirky, "F U" smile or anything like that... just the kind of gesture you make when you see your neighbor in the morning when you grab the paper. I'm pushed into oncoming traffic so I slam on the breaks so I can get in behind him before I get killed. This [non-permissible content removed] had NO IDEA what was going on, and he damn near killed me.
I have many stories very similar to this. At a certain age, people should have to get their reflexes checked ON THE ROAD under REAL CONDITIONS. The state should not be afraid to revoke licenses of incapable drivers.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
Actually on the whole I am pretty enthused about the fact: per mile driven, USA roads are the safest in its recorded history. Can we do better? OH ABSOLUTELY!
American news is usually pretty slanted in presentation for its maximum shock power. This usually means putting the worst possible slant on things!!!
The real buried "good news" is the nation's rates are made up of 50 or so individual state statistics. So unless you happen to drive in all 50 states, you really need only worry about (fatality and accident rates) the area/s in the state/s that YOU drive!! Obviously the individual rates are usually better!!!!!
LOL, they could also "lead by example" by not speeding, tailgating, eating or talking into their radio receiver while driving...
If you are moving significantly faster and constantly passing in the left lane that's also not a problem unless and untill someone driving faster comes up behind you. Pullover, let them pass and then return to the left lane and continue passing. It is simple logic and courtesy. This will eliminate anyone from weaving in and out of traffic and considerably reduce the bunching which puts everyone at greater risk. In addition if you drive this way you will see someone coming up from the distance and you will have plenty of time to find an opening in the center lane to allow them to pass on the left. If you had ever driven in nations with lane discipline you would know how well this works.
They run red lights, they do rolling stops (if they bother to slow at all), they speed in my RESIDENTIAL neighborhood, etc etc etc.
They wonder why they don't get much respect.
When a cop comes up to my car, leans on it, looks down on me in a condescending manner, calls me "buddy", and procedes to lecture me on why it's not okay to go 0.000001MPH through a stop sign, he'll have to forgive me for not calling him "Sir" or "Officer". Afterall, one of his "buddies" blew the roof off my house last night doing 45MPH down my street.
I'm a law-abiding citizen. No record whatsoever, and a near spotless driving record. So when I get pulled over by a rookie with a chip on his shoulder for doing the slowest rolling stop possible on a deserted country road and he starts treating me like the wife-beating crackhead he saw last night on COPS, I tend to become less than "respectful". I'll treat him with the same amount of respect he treats me. I'm not going to eat his *** with a spoon just because someone foolishly gave him a badge and a radar gun.
If I seem hostile towards cops, it's because I am. I have had one bad experience after another with them, whether it be personal or from afar. The first bad one I had personally was when I was 17 years old. I was driving my mom's Honda Accord. I was pretty much your typical goodie-two-shoes student, clean cut, etc. It was a Friday night and I was doing the speed limit. I performed a lane change to make a turn but didn't use my signal. I didn't cut anyone off, but there was a cop behind me. He pulls me over. It's about 10pm. Nervous as hell, I shut the car off without rolling down my windows first. This cop and his partner procede to BANG on both sides of the car with their huge flashlights, all while screaming at me to open the window. I turn the car on and roll the window down. Then "back-up" arrives. Now it's four cops vs. me. I give them all the information they ask for (this is my first time getting pulled over, btw). While one of them is back at the car, the other 3 procede to threaten me with things like "we're going to impound your car if you jerk around with us" and "we could haul you off to jail for that stunt you pulled back there". I got the courage to actually ask WHY I had been pulled over. "You didn't use your turn signal... are you just some drunk punk out on a joy ride?"
What a bunch of asses.
I did get to honk at a cop on the freeway a few months ago. I'm driving in the center lane and he cuts right in front of me. He would have hit my front end had I not slammed on the breaks. By sheer reflex, I honked. He immediately goes back into the far right lane, drops beside me and gives me this look like "do I need to pull you over you smartass?". I just looked at him back, and said while shaking my head "do you know how to drive???". He just shook his head as if in disgust that I would dare question his authority, and then he sped off at Mach 2, weaving in and out of traffic.
Pig.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
A very commendable gesture that is coming more prevalent these days which is nice. That always makes my driving a little nicer when people do that...
grbeck:No it doesn't.
I'm continually amazed at the number of times such an obviously false assertion is claimed on these boards.
Common sense tells you that:
Speed influences crashes in four basic ways:
- It increases the distance a vehicle travels from when a driver detects an emergency until the driver reacts
- It increases the distance needed to stop a vehicle once an emergency is perceived.
- Crash severity increases by the square of the speed so that, when speed increases from 40 to 60 mph, speed goes up 50 percent while the energy released in a crash more than doubles.
- Higher crash speeds reduce the ability of vehicles, restraint systems, and roadway hardware such as guardrails, barriers, and impact attenuators to protect occupants.
That quote is from SPEED AND SPEED LIMITS, which uses data from the IIHS.
I often speed myself, and I realize the risks involved. I try very hard to do it as safely as I can, but I do not pretend that I am not increasing risk to me and others.
And I am continually plagued by LLCs but if they are going at the speed limit, I do not consider harrassment justified...including using my brights. I will pass on the right when I can, but I do not assume I can "bully" a law abiding driver.
When the federal government measured accident rates for various drivers in the mid-1980s, it found that those who drive 10-15 mph faster than the flow of traffic...had the lowest accident rate.
That study was discredited, as the article I linked to states. Most of those involved self-reported speeds and otherwise exaggerated the number of slow moving vehicles.
OTOH, I certainly agree that not moving over when a faster vehicle approaches from behind (when reasonable) is not only considerate, but useful. I'm always happier to let someone (even) faster go ahead and be the rabbit for the policia to catch.
While I dont't disagree about your characterization of how speed influences crashes; if SPEED were the dominant or one of the guiding variables, one would expect the European (sort of the Euro NHTSA) Accident and Fatality rates to be statistically much higher than our own: in fact it is NOT!!
..."I will pass on the right when I can"...
Here, here, I would agree!
And of course you took the car number and reported it to the Police Chief in that political division...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So, somewhere, someday, a cop had actually pulled someone over for not signalling. Bravo! That cop deserves a medal.
I'm even more amazed that someone not only ignore years of traffic safety statistics to defend the "speed kills" nonsense, but would use tortured data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) in attempt attempt to defend it.
That report proves nothing, and is contradicted by recorded fatality rates over the past several years.
li_sailor: Common sense tells you that:
Speed influences crashes in four basic ways:
- It increases the distance a vehicle travels from when a driver detects an emergency until the driver reacts
- It increases the distance needed to stop a vehicle once an emergency is perceived.
- Crash severity increases by the square of the speed so that, when speed increases from 40 to 60 mph, speed goes up 50 percent while the energy released in a crash more than doubles.
- Higher crash speeds reduce the ability of vehicles, restraint systems, and roadway hardware such as guardrails, barriers, and impact attenuators to protect occupants.
That's a nice recitation of high school physics, but never proves that higher speeds INCREASE the likelihood of having a crash, unless we take IIHS' word for it. A driver must get into the crash in the first place for those things to matter. The only relationship between speed limits and fatality rates so far is that as speed limits rise, fatality rates fall.
If, however, a driver makes it habit to run into bridge abutments, vehicles, or other objects, I'd suggest just staying home altogether, or taking the bus. Such a driver has some serious problems.
The IIHS report contains this nugget: According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), speeding is one of the most prevalent reported factors associated with crashes. Speed is a factor in 30 percent of all fatal crashes, killing an average of 1,000 Americans every month. In 1999, more than 12,000 people died in speed-related crashes.
That sounds really bad. Until we look up how NHTSA defines a "speed related" accident.
According to NHTSA, an accident is "speed related" if it includes any of these factors: 1. improper lane changes; 2. following too closely; 3. unsafe passing; 4. inattention; 5. reckless driving; 6. high speed chase (too bad those fleeing felons on America's Scariest Police Chases aren't worried about speed limits); 7. erratic speeds; 8. driving too fast for conditions (not necessarily above the limit); 9. and driving LESS than the posted limit.
According to NHTSA, if someone is driving too slowly, and has a fatal accident, it is defined as speed related. If someone is driving 55 mph in blizzard-like conditions, or during an ice storm, and has a fatal accident, it is considered speed related.
Define any factor broad enough, and you can make it seem like the root of most accidents.
li_sailor: That study was discredited, as the article I linked to states. Most of those involved self-reported speeds and otherwise exaggerated the number of slow moving vehicles.
The IIHS article references a David Solomon study from the 1950s. Unless it can be proven that the federal government simply took that study, dusted it off, and presented it as new evidence in the 1980s, IIHS didn't discredit anything.
The most recent IIHS howler involves a study it cited by the Land Transport Safety Authority of New Zealand. The reports alleges that states that raised their speed limits to 75 mph experienced 38 percent more deaths per 100 million vehicle miles travelled "than expected," based on states that didn't raise the speed limit.
There are HUGE problems with this study.
One, it never says that deaths didn't DECLINE in those states after the adoption of the 75 mph speed limit. (They did, as noted in my prior post.)
Second, comparing the fatalities in one set of states to another is hardly the best method to do this, unless road conditions, driver demographics and weather conditions were roughly the same for both states. Which, they weren't, as the states raising the speed limit to 75 mph were located in the West, while states retaining the speed limit were located largely in the East.
Third, it examined the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles driven for the entire state, which means it included ALL roads, not just those roads where the speed limit was raised.
Torturing data to that extent suggests some analysts at the New Zealand Land Transport Safety Authority once worked in a Hussein-era Iraqi prison.