Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
I hate when that happens. One time I was driving in the middle of the night through the smokey mountains with a friend in another car. We were just flying along makeing great time and then it all ended. Caught up to a huge group of trucks not caring which lane they were in. Took us forever to get around. We were having so much fun too.
There was an accident that blocked a road here in Miami. Cops were turning everyone around. I ended up in a left hand turn lane going east on the road that was blocked going west. 3 lanes going each way. So the light changes and my turn lane is moving. It goes yellow. I enter the intersection as the light goes red. This is wrong, but it is par for the course here in Miami. Normally I would not have done it, but I knew that the west bound traffic was heading into the jam and would not be making any progress.
Anyway, the northbound avenue had some construction so I couldn't get clear of the intersection before the westbound traffic got the green to move. I was blocking their right most lane for a few seconds. There was a lady in a white Camry honking at me because I was blocking her. The honking was irritating me, so I turned and yelled that the road was closed while making that throat cut gesture that to me meant "it's no good" "stop" " cut it out" etc. That really set her off. Hands were flailing.
I decided that I really need a set of flash cards to communicate with my fellow drivers.
I really wish I could have been there when she hit the wall of traffic and I could have said "see, I tried to tell ya."
I didn't get hurt, and it was just kind of a big hop backward, landing on my feet. The guy stopped, mouthed "Sorry" through his closed window, but then just kept on driving! Maybe I should've reported it, as technically you could say it was "hit and run", but I didn't get hurt. It probably would've been more trouble than it was worth, and I'm sure it was an honest mistake. It does drive home the point though, of how dangerous parking lots can be!
Kyle
- Give a left turn signal from the proper turning lane.
- Obey traffic signs and signals.
- Yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and vehicles in the intersection.
- Check all approaching traffic.
- Point the wheels straight ahead until you actually start to turn.
- Complete the turn into the lane closest to you going in your intended direction.
Does "Yield the right-of-way" mean you should be stopped until the opposing car clears the intersection or does it allow a left turner to start his turn before the opposing car has cleared the intersection? My state's Rules of Road does not seem to cover this either under Left Turn or Yield topics. Maybe this is a good test question for devious state DOTs for driver's license exams.
I know what "Yielding the Right of Way" means. I'm sure Xrunner does, as well. What he was asking about was people who make a left turn but don't wait until oncoming traffic is completely past. I.e., instead of waiting for an oncoming car to go completely past before hitting the gas, they hit the gas and start their turn WHILE the oncoming car is passing them (not BEFORE, which WOULD be failure to yield right-of-way). In a situtation like this, if there is an accident it would be the left-turning car hitting the oncoming car, most likely in the rear quarter panel.
I remember thinking that it wasn't fair that, out of all the people in that accident, that sweet elderly couple were the only fatalities, when what they did wasn't even all that bad. I thought the idiot rear-ending them should've gotten it! But, just like life, sometimes these things aren't fair! :P
I absolutely agree, in the interest of safety, when making a turn keep the wheels pointed appropriately until the vehicle starts moving. I do.
I think the more pressing issue you mentioned, xrunner2, is the rule, "Complete the turn into the lane closest to you going in your intended direction." This applies to both right and left turns.... I cannot tell you how many times a day I see folks turning both right AND left and turning into the far (relative to the lane into which they SHOULD turn) lane, cutting off another driver rightfully turning into that lane.
And, while on the subject of yielding, how about roundabouts?! The university in my town just installed one last fall, and I swear that every day I get stuck behind the imbicile that thinks "yield" means "wait until the roundabout has cleared." They should install a "how to properly use a roundabout" sign with longwinded, detailed instructions right at the intersection so everyone can take their time reading up on proper roundabout use while waiting for the intersection to clear so that driver can feel it is safe to go.......
If the car starts to move and it's still in front of me, most likely I'll instinctively brake as would most drivers.
I got into my only serious accident when a left-turner didn't yield to me. I swerved and clocked her with my mom's minivan. Of course, it was her fault for not yielding. (plus she was drunk, didn't have insurance, and wasn't wearing her seatbelt)
Here in the Bronx, people not only have their wheels turned prematurely to make a left, at the very least they'll slowly edge into your lane even when there's lots of green left, or they'll punch it and try to cut across the oncoming lanes as soon as they get a green (I saw this lead to a horrifying T-bone that drove the left-lane turner into a stanchion for one of the elevated lines about two months ago). Livery cab drivers are the worst offenders, but this happens in one form or another at 95% of the intersections I approach where people can make a left from the oncoming left lane.
I saw this practice at its worst just this past Saturday (Saturday traffic on surface roads is INSANE in the Bronx). A guy in a beat-up old minivan simply bogarted his way across a extremely heavily-traveled eight-lane avenue (four lanes in each direction, one for parking and three for traffic). When he got to the intersection, he just kept nosing out into each lane and forced the oncoming traffic to stop. Since this wasn't from a standstill, the oncoming traffic was moving along at a pretty decent clip (20-25 mph), so there was a series of near accidents as people tried to swerve around him or lock up their breaks to avoid hitting him. It was just laughably reckless.
And, oh yeah -- through the back window, I could see the van had at least four or five kids in it, none of them properly seated. Sigh.
Gee, when it rains it pours!!!
"There's absolutely nothing wrong with beginning a left turn before the vehicle with right-of-way has passed - it's called efficient driving and can be the difference between making a turn and waiting all day if traffic is heavy..."
I wonder about efficient driving. It would be intersting to see an overhead camera with electronic stopwatch at an intersection timing "efficiency". Just how much time is saved by the left turner? Would it be .5 second, or .7 second or what? Is this tiny fraction of time worth a safety compromise? Let's time those that can't wait vs those that don't move until the opposing traffic has passed. What are the savings in time and to who?
At Spring Carlisle you almost got hit by the genius who was trying to maneuver his converted SCHOOL BUS through the aisles!
Sorry for the run on sentence
What isn't efficient is when there are ten cars waiting to turn left, but none of them can go until the light turns yellow - then two squeeze through, the second one catching some red. That's how it is at far too many intersections that really need a separate left-turn light. The two-cars-left-on-yellow has become an unofficial rule in many places.
I'm not saying it's a good idea to try to squeeze through, but hopefully you can understand the frustration.
End result: two cars totalled (1yo caddy and six month old saab). Initially, I was ruled at fault, received a ticket and my ins co paid about 75K in property damages.
I was found not guilty in court for two reasons: 1) the other guy was speeding, and in VA speeding means you give up your right of way, 2) The other guy admitted that the light may have turned red.
I got the trascripts, and passed it on to the insurance company, but they decided that the cost of trying to reverse the payout coupled with the probablity of success exceeded the the benefit.
However, they did not surcharge my insurance rates.
As for turning left across "live" traffic in general, I turn as soon as I can when I've yielded ROW and will permit a few feet of clearance. If my view is obstructed, I don't go, or I go with extreme caution. In any suburban/urban area, if you wait for "no traffic" you could be there a few hours. As for waiting for an opposing vehicle to pass you before starting the turn, that means you'll wind up half a block behind. No need for that much clearance, and instead of 4 cars getting thru, you may be the only one.
And as for the "wheels kept straight", I get the point, but I never, ever do that. If you get hit, you'll probably skid straight forward, not turn (even if your wheels are turned)...that's why ABS was invented. And the odds of being rear-ended are fairly slim. Might as well stay home with that approach, IMO.
And as for left turning in front of traffic as the light turns, I do that all the time...but only in large interseciotns where the oncoming traffic is totally unaffected by it...in which case I am still yielding the ROW. I agree that if you aren't, it's not only inconsiderate, but illegal.
Why the left coast, of course.
Might be to some but to me, no not at all. There is just a better chance for being at fault or partially at fault for the left hand turn is all.
On the other hand, I have not had an at fault accident in 39 years or over 1.2M miles of driving. So part of that is not unduly putting yourself in a position that you might be found "at fault"
If you get hit from behind while the car is stopped, ABS isn't going to have any effect. It doesn't kick in unless the wheels are turning at a certain speed when the brake pedal is depressed.
In a skid, attempting to turn usually fails, because the locked up front tires are slipping and therefore are ineffective at turning the vehicle. ABS was designed ( as I learned in that other informative topic so long ago) to allow the front wheels to rotate some and so make steering effective.
If one understands this dynamic, one can apply it to the "wheels turned, brakes locked, speed zero, hit from behind" situation that has been described. If hit from behind, you would, in effect, be in a skid where the turned wheels would have little steering effect.
Now if you stood firmly on your brakes when you got rear-ended, you'd most likely get pushed straight ahead, more or less, because your wheels would be locked in place and you'd be sliding the tires over the pavement. However, most people when they're stopped, are merely "covering" the brake with just enough effort to keep the car from idling forward. In in any instant, when rear-ended, most drivers are going to get thrown backward as the car gets thrusted forward, taking their foot off the brake. In this case, the car is going to get launched wherever the wheels are pointed.
If you have to turn your wheels in preparation for the turn (sometimes this is unavoidable) keep your foot very firmly on the brake. If you were hit from behind now, provided your foot stayed firmly on the brake pedal, you would then most likely be propelled straight ahead rather than into oncoming traffic.
So, to add your point to mine, I would say that the best approach is to turn your wheels and be ready to go, but have a good foot on the brake.
Actually, there's a list of "Pet Hates" on that site, that would fit right into this topic:
Roundabouts
Mobile Bedrooms
Personal Missile Launchers
Since there's no chat on that site (Australian), I assume this is ok to post here.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Classics_Corner/Yoostabees/Yoostabees_Enforcin- g_for_Dollars.S216.A8510.html
"And as for the "wheels kept straight", I get the point, but I never, ever do that. If you get hit, you'll probably skid straight forward, not turn (even if your wheels are turned)...that's why ABS was invented."
Regarding "probably skid straight forward": I suppose that if the left turner got rear-ended by someone going 10-50+ miles per hour that this would be true. However, there have been accidents where the left turner (Car 1) has a car waiting behind him (Car 2) and another car (Car 3) rear-ends Car 2. Car 2 then is bunted into Car 1. If bunt speed is low enough and if wheels are cocked, Car 1 will go into opposing traffic and not straight ahead.
I don't understand the mentality of cocking wheels in advance of a left turn. Is it impatience or merely a perceived possible advantage of saving a micro-second of time? Why is that micro-second so important to the left turner? It is also unnerving and almost intimidating, especially if on a rural road with a 55 speed limit. As I slow down slightly and watch as I approach the intersection, I am asking myself, "Is this guy going to turn into me and hit me?".
This issue of "Early" Left Turners is especially irritating to me. I live in a semi-rural area with mostly 2-lane roads with speed limits of 55. Some are 45, 50. I will slow down if approaching an intersection if I see a vehicle waiting to make a left turn. Because of higher speeds allowed in rural areas, accidents can be more deadly or injurious than in suburban or city areas.
If you're rear-ended at 10mph and your brakes are applied, ya ain't moving much, except for some rear bumper crumpling.
I don't understand the mentality of cocking wheels in advance of a left turn. Is it impatience or merely a perceived possible advantage of saving a micro-second of time?
It's not a micro second, it's probably a second or two.
It is also unnerving and almost intimidating...
If you roll out, yes. But I doubt anyone's unnerved by mere wheel position.
The Dawdler sounds related to another inconsiderate driver: The Slow-Driving, Red-Light-Runner.
You know these people. They're the ones who are rolling along with a dozen cars lined up behind them. Then they get to the intersection late (because they're slower than the lights are timed for) and roll through the red light while everyone behind them waits for the cycle.
That behavior is the #2 pet peeve of mine. (Throwing lit cigarettes out the window is #1).
Here's why it makes my head explode.
1 - They're driving slower to be 'safer'. However, running a red light is much more dangerous than driving the limit or even 5-9mph over the limit.
2 - The virus-like spread of the associated traffic woes. Here's a person who is holding up traffic, but rolling through intersections to hold up a whole new line of cars.
I do have to admit that there's a giant amount of satisfaction associated with waiting for a dashed yellow and passing these drivers.
Here is the scenario:
Standard perpendicular Intersection with right, two pass-through, and left turn lanes at all four incoming directions. The lights change at 30-second intervals, allowing both directions traveling parallel to go simultaneously. Left turns are "yield on green" only - no designated turning. You are in the left turn lane, the light is green, and you are waiting for a break in traffic to turn. There are 10 cars in each of the two pass-through, on-coming lanes - all stopped as the light, at this point, is red. The next wave of autos from the light at the adjacent intersection are just beginning to make their way through that intersection when the light for you and the opposing traffic turns green. The speed limit on these roads is 45 mph.
*break to visualize the situation*
Now, as the traffic begins to roll and you pull into the intersection and stop to wait (with wheels straight ahead as you should), you judge that there should be a 10 second break in traffic between the last cars in line passing your position and the first cars from the adjacent intersection reaching that same point (remember, they are already moving toward you and therefore closing the distance between themselves and the last autos at your intersection). You figure that it will take you 2 seconds to move from you current position (stopped) to fully exiting the intersection in your intended direction. You decide to wait until all opposing traffic has passed your position before beginning your maneuver. No problem, right?
Assuming NO other changes, then right. But now, unexpectedly, another car has entered the roadway into the far (second pass-through lane, relative to your position) behind the vehicles that were stopped at the intersection, effectively changing the 10-second gap into a 4-second and 6-second gap. The autos that were waiting at the light pass, and you have a choice to make.
First, you can wait for the newly-introduced car to pass your point, then go. That will leave you a 4-second gap, assuming you have judged traffic speed correctly and you have no malfunctions as you perform the maneuver.
Second, you can begin your maneuver as that car enters the intersection and therefore reduce the time that you occupy the intersection after the car has passed from 2 seconds to 1 seconds, but still allowing plenty of room between you and that car and yielding right-of-way. This makes the time-distance between your auto and the fast-approaching autos 5 seconds at the nearest point, rather than 4 second gap. Not much? Maybe, but considering that it often takes that much time (1 second) just to react to a situation, it is fairly significant especially considering that a malfunction or mis-judgement could occur.
Third, you could hang out in the intersection until the light turns yellow and the opposing traffic has ceased to move, then go. A safer option in some cases, but you didn't account for the fact that traffic on the other street was very light and there were no cars waiting in one of the pass-through lanes. But, there was a delivery truck in the left turn lane on that street. The light turns green for that traffic as you perform your left-turn maneuver, and a car traveling at 45 mph approaches and enters the intersection in that empty pass-through lane without slowing because the light is green.... WHAM!
Oh, and I suppose there is a fourth option: do not pull into the intersection until you are ready to perform the left-turn maneuver. 10 lights later, there are 20 autos trying to turn left behind you and you cannot focus on driving over the noise of horns behind you. Sure, the traffic engineers should put in a designated timeframe for lefts because of the heavy traffic flow conditions, but that doesn't help you get through the light right now.
And, this one is rather straight forward with fairly generous gap times yet I see drivers choose option four nearly every day. No choice is fool-proof, but if you began your turn at an appropriate time (the opposing car had just entered the intersection), you will just be entering the nearest pass-through lane when the other car is passing your point (that gives at least 15 feet of clearance). If the other driver freaks out and swerves INTO you there's not much you can do, but if they simply hit the brakes, so can you. You are only moving at maybe 5-8 mph at this point.
Remember, being excessively timid and second-guessing other drivers' intentions is just as dangerous as being overly aggressive and inconsiderate. You must outwardly assume that other drivers will follow the flow of traffic and rules of the road but inwardly be constantly viligant and prepared because they often do not.
The only time I'll pre-cock my wheels is if I have to make a u-turn and don't have a lot of room to do it in.
xrunner2, I entirely agree with you on this one. On a two lane road or any road when making a turn when the opposing traffic is in the lane directly adjacent to you, there is no time savings nor enough maneuver room to begin a left turn in advance of that vehicle passing your location. It saves no time to turn the tires in advance in any left-turn situation (a driver should be accelerating while turning anyway: not turn, then accelerate!) and does certainly leave that uneasy feeling (for the approaching driver(s)) of, "Is this person waiting to turn, or will it turn in front of me?" After all, many (I would hope "most") of us were taught that you turn you wheels when you make the turn, not while waiting for it. Again, though, it harkens back to my previous statement that you cannot second guess another driver's intentions - you just have to be alert and ready for it if the "unexpected" happens, which it sounds like you are!
I lived in a rural area most of my life and skinny two-laners were the rule, not the exception. In fact, if you found a road with a fog line, you knew you were getting close to the city! You are right; very few accidents on those roads left alive all those involved.