State Farm has made a lowball offer. Offered 36K with 24K in meds, $1500 in lost wages and their independent medical examiner has agreed with the long list of other doctors' diagnosis. Will reporting them to our insurance commission compel them to a more reasonable offer?? Is this a waste of time? Should we just tell them..."see you in court".
Were kinda at a stalemate. We had to fire our attorney because the best he could do was 34K. We decided to try and settle on our own...now we don't know what to do! They can't truly believe that's all the case is worth!? I can't seem to grasp their strategy....such a LOOOOOW offer on a case that all doctors agree...even there's. What now?? DO they really want to go to court on a case where their insured was 100% at fault? AAAAHHHHHHHH! So many questions and no answers!
You "...had to fire..." your attorney? At least from what you say it appears that you wanted to settle the claim on the cheap and beat the attorney out of his/her fee. Your stategy worked - they've upped their offer by a BIG $2000. As you now know, it's not an attorney's fault that the insurance company will only offer so much.
1.5 times your specials is not sufficient reason to lodge a complaint with an insurance commission. Their strategy is simply - to hang onto their money as long as possible.
Your only strategy - hire another lawyer and sue. Period. If the case is as good as you say, they'll settle - eventually. Or you can let the jury decide how much you get.
civic: did you tell us how much the repair will cost???...see if it even exceeds your (assumed) deductible...if repairs are $800 and your deductible is $1000, do not waste your time...if repairs are $2000 and your ded is $500, make the claim...
omegagen...w/o knowing the facts, it does seem that $36K is low for $24K in meds, probably worth suing...however, what kind of meds are they???...for example, if you had $18K in physical therapy for soft tissue injury and $6K in diagnostics (EMG, MRI, x-rays) that were all negative for pathology (fractures, nerve damage), do not be surprised if a jury offers you something similar to State Farm's offer...excessive charges for "muscle strain" or cervical/thoracic sprain/strain will often get low awards from juries, as they "know" that sprain/strain injuries do not usually require that much treatment, regardless of how many doctors agree...
OTOH, if there were fractures, nerve damage, lacerations and scarring, with much rehab therapy after being disabled for months, then State Farm may be taking a great risk, as the case has value...
Also, what are policy limits for the policy, and do you have underinsured motorists insurance to pay the excess over their policy???...example: they have a $50K policy, a jury awards $125K...their policy will only pay their limits of $50K and collecting from individuals is often difficult, esp when they file Chapter 7...BUT, if your UIM policy, say, is $250,000, then you carry sufficient coverage for your policy to kick in and pay the difference, up to YOUR policy limits...
Which (here is Bob, the ongoing broken record) is why I recommend that everyone carry at least $100K in UM/UIM, with a $1 million umbrella (I pay $150 yearly for the umbrella), so if you ever get a high judgment, and the other guy has only $25K or $50K, your insurance will pick up the slack...
You never know if your next accident will cost you $250 in meds or $250,000 in meds, and it pays to be covered, as you never know if you will be struck by a careening cement truck driven by an unlicensed undocumented worker who is uninsured and has let the vehicle policy lapse as of 3 days ago...
The adjuster told my wife that along with the accident injuries (bulging disc L4,L5,& S1) the denerative disc disease is an indication of prior injury. Although my wife HAS NEVER had back trouble like she has now...I see the angle they're taking.
She's been through alot and will someday need surgery which before the accident there weren't any problems...but what can you do?
Our previous lawyer was a poor excuse of an attorney and not because they couldn't settle with an acceptable amount, but their own paralegals told us in confidence that the attorneys in the firm didn't "work" her case. The para legal was very apologetic when terminated their services, hence we lost faith in attorneys during settlement phase. Contrary to some who believe we were trying to "beat the attorney" out their fee, we both agreed we could do better...you don't just fork over a fee because the mighty lawyer charges it...THEY have to earn it and ours DID NOT!!!
There is a fine line in what they told you...your wife's pre-existing condition...a disc, lumbar or cervical, usually needs about 5-10 years to lose half its height...a healthy disc is about 1/4 inch thick, so half would be about 1/8 inch...a degenerated disc would easily show up on a lateral (side view) x-ray, and WOULD imply a pre-existing condition, as the auto trauma would not cause immediate loss of height by itself...HOWEVER, they cannot prove there was pre-existing BULGING, HERNIATION, or RUPTURE unless there is a prior MRI/CT to show it and prove it...the disc bulge can easily be the immediate result of trauma, especially the trauma of an auto accident...their argument is weak, if all they can say that the disc is 50% degenerated...if your wife never complained of back problems, no doctor visits complaining of back or radiating leg pain, and now she has complaints amd objective findings of MRI or CT to show disc injury, State Farm must pay...this injury is a direct consequence of the trauma, and you need an attorney who understands this, and also an ortho or neuro who is not a paid whore for State Farm...a simple deg disc does not have to mean a disc ready to herniate, and any ortho knows it...
Plus, the law has what we call the "eggshell thin plaintiff" or, you take your plaintiff as you find him/her...example...if an older person has osteoporosis, and an auto accident (or a slip and fall injury, for that matter) causes broken bones, you might expect that the fractures would be more numerous and more serious than, say, the same impact on a 25 year old weightlifter...
NO MATTER...you take your plaintiff as you find them...the bad guy cannot get off the hook because he caused serious damage to someone with osteoporosis, he is now on the hook for GREATER damages because he injured someone with a pre-existing condition that made their injuries worse, and the bad guy must pay...
If your wife did have a pre-existing condition, but it was asymptomatic prior to the collision (aka subclinical), without any treatment, then the other guy has now injured someone who was "eggshell-thin" whioch has resulted in greater damage than would otherwise be noted...
You need another attorney, preferably one with a brain, and one who works with ortho/neuro doctors who are honest and will call it like they see it, and do not let State Farm off easy on this one...
Now, if your wife was seeing any doctor, MD, chiro, for regular treatment of back pain, this story may be different, as it may be hard to differentiate the amount of pain before vs after the wreck, but, still, if a disc is herniated with radiating pain, verified by EMG, where none was present before, you still have a strong case...
Let me know what is going on, compared to what I have just written...
The disc may also not show herniation in a few months. So they will want time and more studies before paying up. I was on a jury with such a case. Ironically a nurse with practical knowledge of discs and their showing bulging and not showing bulging weeks/months later was helpful. She said that many normal people would have bulging if they were x-rayed.
Also be prepared for any mental health problem to be brought up that might be anywhere in any doctor's or health company's payment records. The plaintiff was painted as a hypochondriac-like patient in our case. The plaintiff attorney looked very hurt when she didn't get a huge settlement, only a small one to cover minor costs.
bulging may be present, but if she never reported for treatment with complaints of pain (my supposition, as I do not know), and now she has pain, it is logical to assume that she may have stayed subclinical for 30 years, but the auto accident made her symptomatic...
If that assumption is not allowed, then for ANY injury you may assume that they would have eventually suffered from pain just from waiting long enough...i.e., yes, she broke her arm from falling on a wet floor, but just wait long enough for osetoporosis to set in and she will suffer from spontaneous fractures on her own, possibly right where she broke her arm in the fall...
Now juries may not see it that way, but I do believe that if there is objective evidence like MRI CT EMG with complaints of pain, and, assuming no complaints or objective finding prior to the collision, it is quite logical to assume that the trauma either caused a new condition or accelerated a pre-existing condition, and if she never had lower back complaints prior, then even assuming an accleration is to pretend that the trauma had no effect...then why have insurance for injury compensation, why not just tell folks to jump in the lake???
Disclosure: I am assuming that everyhting posted is true, and that facts and objective evidence is as I state it...if facts are different, or if there is no evidence other than her complaints of pain with no verifiable evidence, then my legal argument evaporates...soft tissue back pain (muscle sprain/strain) has poor compensation simply because it cannot be verified, and even tho muscle spasm is objective, it is not enough, BY ITSELF, to justify adequate compensation...it needs additional evidence to make it worthy, aside from "My back hurts and the doctor said I have spasms"...even if meds equal $20K, if the diagnosis is simply "sprain/strain" or "spasm", it would be lucky to be worth $5-10K...
I was in a wreck about 5 months ago. Have been to the chiropractor 22 times, and he quit seeing me since "insurance hates it when they treat past 120 days." The doctor said my wreck was minor (my car had minimal damage, the car that hit me was totalled) and that I shouldn't have been in as much pain as I was. My x-rays showed my spine was pretty much one big "S". Well I'm still in pain and having headaches. A lot of my activities have been limited. At this point I don't know what to do. Should I call my insurance and tell them the situation? The person who hit me, his insurance (State Farm) has called me to get the settlement going, but so far I haven't signed anything, not even a release from my chiropractor
Have the police investigated to see who was responsible? Tossing a metal and glass patio table off a balcony onto a sidewalk sounds like a felony-level crime (reckless endangerment or something similar) in most places. It would've been manslaughter or even second-degree murder if someone had been walking underneath.
Your chiro was correct, unless there was ultra serious injuries to you, most DCs do not treat intensively beyond 3 to 4 months...exceptions to that are when an ortho or a neuro examines you and recommends continued treatment, and a number of open minded MDs will do just that, as they recognize the effectiveness of chiropractic over simple pain pills and muscle relaxers, which make many folks woozy and dizzy...
Thanks a lot for your responses! Unfortunately, I had to go out of town immediately following the falling table incident so I haven't had time to get estimates done yet. Once i find out how the damages compare to my comprehensive deductible, I'll decide about filing the insurance claim.
As for filing a property destruction report, I called the police and they never showed up. Sad fact of life when living in DC. At least the reactions of people i've told this story to have been entertaining.
Hi to all the insurance experts in this forum. I have a few questions and would greatly appreciate some feedback.
First, the hypothetical nightmare scenario. How is damages/liability calculated when there is a fatality in a collision? The term in liability insurance says "bodily injury" and "property damage" but nowhere is death mentioned so I am wondering what happens when a fatality is involved. The question is relevant when picking the higher limits for liability insurance (say $250K/person or something like that).
Second, I reside in California and talked to my State Farm agent a few days ago about getting med-pay. He gave me the impression that med pay is less useful than what Bob (marsha7) has been advocating so I am kind of confused. My agent told me that I can't separate the compensation from the other party. For example, let's say I get 100K from the other party. My meds are 50K and I have 50K of med pay. My agent gave me the impression that I would get 100K and 50K of that will go back to my health insurance company, leaving me with only 50K. I got the impression from Bob's posts that I would get (and keep) 100K while State Farm would pay 50K to my health insurance company.
Sorry for your unfortunate mishap. Too bad you can't get the looser who did that. But I have an idea what you might try, just for the sake of it. If there is a bulletin board (or something similar) in you apartment building, post a message to the effect that whoever lost/dropped a table should contact you so they could retrieve it... when it gets back from the police where it's being run for fingerprints/kept as evidence You never know - we read all the time how dumb people are.
Paul, damage calculations with a death involved tend to turn on a number of things: life expectancy and future income loss being a couple of the main ones. How much suffering was involved can also be a factor (as are medical bills). A huge factor is what you mentioned: the amount of available insurance.
If you have assets and are concerned about liability, buy an unbrella with at least one million dollars of coverage.
I'm not licensed to practice in California and so can't comment on how things work out there. I personally believe med pay coverage to be (essentially) a waste of money and don't carry it myself.
Hi Christopher, Thank you for your response, I have some further questions if you don't mind.
Do you have a general formula for how liability would be calculated (I realize that a lot of factors are involved). Let me give you a hypothetical victim. 30 years old (does gender matter at this young age?) in good health, income $80K/yr a year (so a good amount of future earning potential), married, have two young children.
How much would the settlement be worth for this person? Does that change whether this person has life insurance or not? Does whether the spouse is employed matter or not? Does it matter who's paying (i.e. the person causing the accident or the victim's insurance company if he/she has uninsured motorist coverage)?
Finally, I noticed one thing that was not mentioned as a factor: The income/assets of the person who caused the accident (though one would think the victim is worth the same regardless of who killed him/her).
I guess I am at a point where I can afford the personal liability umbrella but how do I know how much to buy (1/2/more millions)? I'd also like to know how those really high limits would protect me whether I am the one causing the accident or am a victim in an accident.
that includes death, which would almost always pay out policy limits, no questions asked...anything over that would have to come from a jury award in a lawsuit...which may depend on policy limits, if you are talking about an individual as opposed to a corporation...and, of course, there ARE limits to what one's life is worth, at least as far as the legal system is concerned...
For example, while philosophically life is priceless, no one would ever get an award for, say, loss of spouse or a child for 50 billion dollars, as, a life just ain't worth that much...since you can't put a price on it, you must put a price on it (not double speak)...
So, if one was killed by a Fedex truck, one might expect between, say, $500K to 2-3 million, which, frankly, is probably more than enought to adequately compensate someone for loss of loved one...then there may be special circumstances, like the case where a train struck a car (it was the railroad's fault, never mind why) and killed both parents in the front seat but two 4 year old twins came out unscathed...the loss of both parents, plus incidentals brought an award of $51 million, or about 25 million apiece, but this is rare, and you can see the SUPER extenuating circumstances and the deep pockets of the railroad...
If some ordinary driver causes a death, but only has $25K in liability, insurance will pay out $25K and someone will surely sue, BUT WILL THEY COLLECT???...probably not, but if YOU have a $1 million umbrella policy on your UM, then your own policy will pay out $1 million to make up for his lack of sufficient insurance...
As far as medpay, it will only apply if you are in a fault state as opposed to a no fault state...to me, as it works in GA, medpay IS the best thing since sliced bread, as it pays your med bills without requiring reimbursement (group health requires to be paid back), so, if all your meds are paid, the entire settlement (less attorney fees if you have one) goes into your pocket...
A case example that I just settled...$25K liability limits, client had $11K in meds and was smart enough (lucky enough?) to have $10K in medpay...without medpay, the $11K would have come from the settlement, $8K in atty fees, leaving her with $6K for her ($25K less 11K less 8K equals $6K)...since medpay paid $10K of the $11K in meds, it noe becomes $25K less $1K (medical balance) less $8K equals $16K...so, by paying $75.00 for $10K in medpay, she walked away with $16,000.00 instead of $6,000.00...so by buying medpay for under $100, she gained an extra $10,000.00...how anyone can dispute medpay is beyond me, but for all those who do, hey, do it your way, I just work here...:):):)...and if you have group health, you have to pay them back so you might still lose the extra $10K in subrogation, which is why medpay far surpasses group health...unless your subrogation laws are different (and they might be), the argument against medpay, quiet frankly, evaporates into thin air, or at least it does under Georgia law...anyone in GA w/o medpay is, quiet objectively, irresponsible and a fool...
Often ins agents are aware of the payback, and act like they are saving you money in premiums by telling you that you do not need medpay if you have group health...they are either ignorant, misinformed, or lying, because my real life example above shows how $75 in medpay premium put $10K in her pocket...the math is irrefutable, at least under GA law...
Hey, I don't care what you do, all I do as an attorney is try to show you how to cover your buns in the best way possible...PLEASE...DON'T buy medpay, DON"t buy uninsured motorists insurance, DON'T get a $1 million umbrella policy, I really don't care...but when tragedy happens (and I sure hope it does not) and the other idiot has no insurance or a measley $25K, and you ask some attorney how you will be compensated for your serious injuries and your wife's injuries, after they deport the illegal immigrant with a 1975 Chevy van and no insurance, then what I say will make sense...since you cannot depend on the other guy, you must insure yourself for HIS stupidity, and that is why I beat the drum for more than the minimum insurance required, as I see the injuries and the devastated people who are now broke because they had liability only, $25K, yet they expected the OTHER guy to have the million dollar policy...if you suffer serious injury, you will be glad you had it...if you don't, it is hardly wasted money compared to what you will receive if you need it...
I plan to buy a car in CA and will need insurance - liability only as the car will be 4k at most. It is recommended to get a "higher" limits insurance if one has assets to protect. Being a grad student, I don't think I have anything to protect and I'm quite sensitive.
Given the above, what are the possbile _personal_ drawbacks to having 25/50 rather than 50/100 or higher. CA state minimum is 15/30. What do I risk by having low coverage level? Thanks.
Bob, thank you for your inputs. It then seems that a million or so would be sufficient as a liability umbrella.
It also appears that if I get med-pay and am injured in an accident, I would somehow need to get my insurance carrier to pay for my medical bills instead of using my (pretty good) health insurance (though I am not sure how I'd actually go about doing that).
euphonium, you touched on exactly the reason I am exploring how much insurance to buy. I don't want me future income to potentially be obligated to someone else.
Nice post - we'll just have to agree to disagree about medpay. I've been driving for 35 years without it and haven't needed it (knock on wood). Using your numbers, that $75 gamble to put 10K in MY OWN pocket just seems like a poor bet to me. Better to spend it on increased uninsured/underinsured IMHO.
I think you are correct if you're looking at it with a strict risk/reward strategy... iow a good deal means the premium divided by the risk is less than the potential reward...
But the proper way to look at it is, what would it do to your finances. Can you handle that $10k hole? Some people can, some people can't, and if ya can't, it's gonna "cost" you a lot more than $10,000 in the long run.
When I was a student, I always got "loss damage waivers" on rental cars... I knew it was a bad deal... nothing wrong with my math skills... but I couldn't afford the risk.
" If you haven't priced unbrellas, they are surprisingly affordable and well worth the money "
The last time I priced umbrellas, the additional cost was significant. I carry 100/300 and would have to increase it to 250/500 on all my cars before the umbrella could be added. I don't recall the exact figures, but it wasn't cheap, over a grand more per year.
I'm about to redo my coverages when my 18 yr old goes to college in August, so I'll post the numbers.
I significantly scraped the side of my brand new Toyota Sienna on a post going through a (poorly engineered)drive-through. I have received one estimate for 2600 and another that I think will come in higher. When I spoke to the claims adjuster about the possible rate increase she said she could not say how much - but it definitely would go up and to ask my agent. My agent said it could go up about 1000 per year for 3 years because I will loose my good driving credit and discouraged me from making the claim even though I never had an accident or ticket in 25 years! First I can not believe it would go up that much - we have all our insurances (auto, home and business gen. liability) with this company = thousands of dollars a year. So the dilema - do I pay out of pocket the approximate 3K (i have a 500 deductible) and keep my insurance in good standing....or file a claim and take the risk of a big increase. What if I file a claim and then change insurance companies? I am not really happy with them and have been meaning to shop around. The other issue is whether or not to pursue that the cement post in the drive through does not have a curb ( it just sits in the driveway ) and the way the whole thing is designed makes it difficult to manuever any vehicle through it. I was thinking that I could protest the rate increase with the argument that there is a flaw in the design which led to my accident (is this really getting far fetched?)and maybe there would be some leniency in deeming me as an unsafe driver.
I think 1k a year sounds a little extreme, but then again, I also think that your justification that you are a safe driver is a little far fetched -- yes.
You are planning to argue what exactly? That your uncontrollable desire for a cheeseburger forced you into not putting enough care and attention into the vigorous maneuvers required to dodge the stationary drive thru post?
Something else you may want to consider. When you were talking to an adjuster about your future rates ... had a claim already been filed? If so, you're clean record may already be marred whether they pay out or not.
lilyowen has a good point insurance companies make notes on your account so if this claim has not been filed I would venture to say it has been noted. If you change carriers the new insurance company would also know about this claim. Poorly designed or not this is certanly your fault however you could hire an attorney (if you can find one) to pursue a case for you.
Maybe it varies from state to state or ins. companies. Or maybe having a teenager in the family has some influence. But I found out too that 1M umbrella is pretty affordable. In MN with AmFam I changed from 30/60 to 50/100 for a buck and change a month. Similar to your case, I have to go through 100/300 for another $6-7/mo, then it's additional $15/mo to add the umbrella. I don't remember the exact numbers, but roughly $250-300 more a year for the full meal deal.
In giving Miss Butthalter a ride home from church, the car ended up in the ditch due to a blow out of a tire. My HMO covered my family and I, but there was no insurance for Miss Butthalter other than the PIP I carried. One never knows what insurance a guest doesn't have while riding in his vehicle.
Thanks for the input - for the record it was not a fast food joint, but a new library book drop off. I do not know why I went through it b/c it is a known joke in town that if you try to get close enough to roll down your window and drop the book in the slot the way it was supposed to be designed you can NEVER get close enough becuase there is limited space and the turn is so sharp...so then you can't open your door to get out to drop the book in the drop.....of course it is my fault, but I just thought that to give me the same rating as if I was in a accident where it was clearly my fault and to raise my rates 1K a year seemed overboard. I do not think that because of this I am a higher risk driver.
I guess my biggest question is at what point to people choose to file a claim over paying out of pocket. They say I will not truly know the rate increase until I file the claim so the 1K is an estimate. It seems that if the deductible is $500 and the cost increase will be $3000 then if it costs $3500 I should pay out of pocket?? IS that logic correct??
I know that other companies (if I switch) will be aware of the claim, I just thought if I shopped it around another company may not be so expensive for coverage. I had read 40% of the base.....so I was thinking more like 300 a year. Are there state statutes that regulate how much an insurance company can actually raise your rates??
An attorney where my works has offered to take her case for 20% during the settlement phase and of course, the std fee if it goes to trial.
This attorney believes that the "threat" of a federal lawsuit might make them more willing to settle the case for its true value.
Under what circumstances can auto liabilty cases be filed in federal court? Would this really compel them to settle? We're leaning towards just putting it in his hands because the insurance company seems in my opinion, as if they'd prefer us to use an attorney. They seem UNWILLING to settle with us. This whole process has been a mystery.
but I fail to see how insurance can be threatened by a federal lawsuit...in Georgia, unless it is UM, you do not sue the insurance, you actually file suit against the at-fault driver, who is then indemnified by his insurance, and the insurance pays any judgment, up to policy limits...even a bad faith claim against an insurance company will end up in state court, not federal court, so, unless your atty knows something I don't (and he/she probably DOES know something I don't...:):):) ), the threat of a federal suit seems harmless to me, but I sure am willing to be enlightened by folks smarter than me...
Paulhuang...the purpose of medpay, if your state has it, is to bypass the paying of medical bills by your health insurance, because (once again, here in GA) group must be paid back by your settlement, whereas medpay does not, so more $$$ in your pocket...
euphonium: you raised the one point my diatribe did not mention...the other reason for medpay is that it covers ALL the occupants in your car, whereas your health ins only covers you and your family...
So, to respond to cccompson, you can certainly decide whether medpay is right for you, but if you ever suffer a serious accident with serious injuries, you will be covered by your health insurance, but your uninsured cousin/friend/girlfriend/uncle/yardworker/etc who has no health insurance, who is sitting in the passenger seat will have no coverage for medbills...and, if you are the one at fault, then you are forcing that party to probably file suit against you to have your liability coverage pay for his injuries...and, to beat this into the ground, he will have to use a portion of his settlement to pay his medbills, whereas if you had cheap medpay coverage, his recovery would certainly be better and last him longer...but why care about the passengers, since you have all the coverage you need for you???...gamble with your own life and finances, it is yours to gamble with, but you gamble with your passengers who are not immediate family members...since you seem to sleep well, go for it...
skor...as a grad student, you are probably not worth suing, but, as one stated, they can attach your future earnings via garnishment...better coverage would help that...you could always file bankruptcy to eliminate any judgment, but if you are trying for any professional certification or license, a bankruptcy may preclude (prevent) you from obtaining that license...better liability coverage is the cheapest way out...
Bearing in mind, the vast majority of folks carry minimum coverage and get away with it...but when I see the cases of the "more seriously" injured, minimum coverage falls short, very short...is it a gamble???...you bet, and for cccompson, he feels comfortable going w/o medpay...as long as you make an INFORMED decision, I am happy, but most of what I post here is foreign to most people, who have no idea that medpay exists, or why, or why an umbrella is useful, or why higher limits make sense...but, if you make an educated choice knowing your options, thenif you get screwed down the road by having no UM, or no medpay, or lose a lawsuit for $100 grand and only have $25K limits, at least you can say to the mirror that you deserve it because you decided not to cover yourself against that 1 in 1 million chance that your wreck in your Mini-Cooper would be with an uninsured cement truck instead of a motorcycle...
But, in closing, I am highly amused when someone complains to me that their portion of a settlement all went to pay their med bills, nothing goes in their pocket for lost wages, pain or suffering, and when I ask about why they did not have medpay, or UM, or we had to pay back their health insurance out of settlement, they all look at me and say, almost to a man, "It just isn't fair"...yes, it is quite fair, you simply gambled and lost...
What does bother me is that the $1000s (often MANY $1000s)they lost could have been salvaged by a few hundred dollars yearly, but they took the cheap route, so they end up with the cheap finale...almost poetic justice, if you ask me...
Remember, my entire thesis is based not on greed, but on the simpe principle that is someone injures you thru their carelessness in driving (negligence, in legal lingo) you should be compensated for your medbills, pain and suffering...remember further, compensation for pain and suffering is not a windfall for nothing, it is just compensation for your losses, whether earnings, inability to bend or walk, broken bones that laid you up, or whatever...if folks think I think folks get $$$ for nothing, that's nuts...but when folks are injured in a wreck, the one at fault should pay...but if that one has inadequate coverage, then, sadly, it falls to you to insure against his lack of insurance...hence, medpay, UM, high limits, etc...
I am telling you how to maximize your recovery without having to walk away with nothing, as many do when medbills are moderate ($10-15K) and the at fault party only has $25K in liability limits, lives in a 20 year old trailer, and works for cash at the local station, as he is judgment proof and cannot be garnished...if you do not have adequate insurance, you are doubly injured, injured by the collision, then injured again by your monetary loss since the money went to everyone but you...this is what I see all the time, so I know this is reality, regardless of what people think happens, they are wrong for the most part...
It is worth thinking about, since many insurance agents cannot/will not/do not go into this kind of detail when they sell folks auto insurance...
because (once again, here in GA) group must be paid back by your settlement, whereas medpay does not, so more $$$ in your pocket... Marsha, please explain why you have more $$$ in your pocket from medpay coverage, is it the actual medical expenses you have to pay for your medical bills from medpay coverage, you should not have any leftover in your pocket. while if you have no such coverage, your health insurance will pay this for you.
I appreciate your advice and I agree with it, given the way the system is set up.
But the people who say "it's not fair" are exactly right: Fair is when you have an accident, not your fault, you get made whole again. Without having to pay extra up front.
I should mention that in Germany -- and perhaps in the rest of Europe -- if you let your insurance lapse, the police will come to your house, find your car, and take the license plates off of it. You can have them back when you show proof of insurance. By short-circuiting the ins co and the DMV, the problem of uninsured drivers pretty much doesn't exist. How the medpay stuff works I don't know, but I suspect it's fairly simple, since they have universal coverage...
Finally, what I hate about the whole thing is that it's such a dissertation. I still don't even know if I have Medpay. I have:
Liability Coverages Bodily Injury Property Damage Uninsured Motorist Personal Injury Protection Property Protection Limited Property Damage Personal Injry Protection Excess Coverage Work Loss: Income Benefits/Replacement Services
Physical Damage Coverages Comprehensive Van Contents Basic Collision
Liability Coverages Programs Required By State Laws ( this is the MI catastrophic claims fund; $144/car/year no matter how many cars you own).
Do I have MedPay? No idea. I do think medical bills are covered without limit through the catastrophic claims fund. But that's hearsay.
Why is all this stuff so danged complicated? Mostly 'cuz everything is state regulated and the US has the most byzantine health care system in the world...
" if you let your insurance lapse, the police will come to your house, find your car, and take the license plates off of it. You can have them back when you show proof of insurance. By short-circuiting the ins co and the DMV, the problem of uninsured drivers pretty much doesn't exist. "
Ha, I sure wish it was like that here in Florida. My wife got rear ended by an uninsured driver (only minor bumper damage) and she didn't even get a ticket. She showed the cop a valid ins. card but when we went to file a claim, the company said she didn't pay it and let it lapse. So we call the investigating officer, several times leaving a msg. each time and he never called us back.
And I still refuse to get UIM protection. The amount of coverage here in Florida is minimal and it doesn't cover the vehicle. Playing devil's advocate here, I have good medical ins. through work, as well as Florida is a no fault state. Why would I get UIM protection?
Dear Sir: As we expect the judgement to be in excess of your policy limits, we are advising you to seek separate counsel to defend against that amount which is above and beyond your coverage.
The above was mailed to one of my clients who refused to carry more than $35,000 CSL. Yes, I had his signature on file acknowledging that higher limits were offered, but he refused the offer.
Bottom Line: Settled out of court for his policy limits many years ago in CA. It was a very close call for all.
Michigan, if you let your insurance lapse, the Michigan State patrol would also show up at your door and demand your license plates...but that also depends on one factor that you would never consider until you see what happens in Georgia...
In Michigan, if a car has no plate on the rear, it is immediately pulled over and the driver has some deep 'splainin' to do or else immediate arrest for unregistered uninsured vehicle...in GA, it seems like every fifth vehicle has a cardboard plate on the back which has scribbled on it in magic marker or crayon, "Stolen Plate" or "Lost Plate" and nobody stops them, so we lose the chance to check those drivers who may not have insurance...we literally blow it by ignoring them, whereas if every officer stopped them every 10 feet and gave them ticket after ticket, they would solve the problem quickly...
Also, it is sad that if one shows the officer an insurance card that turns out to be expired, the victim has to find the officer and track them down to find the offending driver a week or 2 later to give them a ticket for driving uninsured...one would think that the system would be more efficient than that...for the benefit of drivers, I really like the "[non-permissible content removed]" tactics of the Michigan State Patrol, because it is only the offending uninsured who are targeted, and that is for the benefit of the rest of us...oh, and if they are falsely accused???...all they have to do is show a VALID insurance card and the officer will leave and go eat donuts...:):):):):)
Wai- let's say you are struck and injured by a driver who has the state minimum of $25K in liability limits...other than that, he lives in a trailer and paints houses for cash, so you will never garnish him and he is, in effect, judgment proof, so all you have is his $25K policy to pursue...
Obviously, if your medbills are only $800.00, then your case is barely worth $1,500-$2,500, so his limits are meaningless, you have a small case with no problems...
But, let's say that your injuries were moderate to severe, and your treatment costs, between Emergency Room, MDs and Chiropractors was $14K ($14,000.00)...I am assuming you hire an attorney, but this example works even if you don't...
With $14K in meds, you will probably easily settle for his policy limits of $25K...REMEMBER, YOU WANTED TO USE YOUR GROUP HEALTH TO PAY THOSE $14K IN MEDS...well, your group health will SUBROGATE against your claim and demand repayment for the $14K they paid out on your behalf...
Settlement is $25,000.00 Atty Fee $ 8,000.00 Blue Cross $14,000.00 (they must be paid back) You Get $ 3,000.00 for all of your pain and suffering
Settlement is $25,000.00 Atty Fee $ 8,000.00 Medpay Payback$ 0,000.00 (medpay does not get paid back) You Get $17,000.00
I see a material difference in whether you get $3K for pain and suffering or $17K...if you don't see it, I cannot be of help from here...
This is not about greed, it is about fair compensation after an injury...and if a $75-100 yearly policy can put that kind of money in your pocket after a true compensable injury (we are not talking fake injuries, we are talking injured people here), it would take 170 years worth of premiums (170 x $100 yearly = $17,000.00) to equal the payout you could get by having medpay...
This does not even consider that if you had four passengers who are all seriously injured, that $75 premium covers each of them with $25K-$100K of medical coverage at no extra charge, so if each of them had a similar recovery, your measly medpay premium can put many, many $1000s in multiple people's pockets, hopefully compensating them fairly for injuries that someone else caused...
So, when anyone wants to gamble without it, feel free to do so...but when your passengers are injured and your group insurance pays your med bills but not theirs, and they find out you could have bought cheap insurance but gambled with THEIR lives, I don't want to be ther when you tell them that they could have received additional funds for their injuries but you chose the cheap route because YOU had health insurance...
I hear what you're saying about med pay, it does make sense to make sure if you're in an accident that your passengers are covered regardless of fault. I just did a quick estimate on progressive.com and came up with $218/yr for $10K of coverage for just one of my vehicles.
Now what if I was the one at fault. Would the Bodily Injury policy cover that or would it still be Med pay?
And for those not sure what med pay is, this is from progressive.com:
Medical Payments
What is covered? Medical Payments coverage covers you if you are involved in an automobile accident and consequently incur medical or funeral expenses due to bodily injury sustained in an accident. This coverage also protects you and relatives who reside in your household while in other vehicles or if struck as a pedestrian. Certain exclusions may apply.
What does it pay? The limit that you select will be the most that will be paid to each person insured on your policy in one single accident. This coverage pays per person after all other coverages that may apply have been used regardless of fault.
Why do I need this? Many people buy this coverage to supplement their health insurance coverage. It is a very inexpensive supplement to your medical insurance when you are involved in an automobile accident.
Example You are involved in an accident where it has been determined that the total medical expenses for you and your passengers is in the amount of $55,000 dollars. The other driver was at fault and only had Bodily Injury coverage limits of $25,000 per person/$50,000 per accident. You did not have Uninsured / Underinsured Motorists coverage. You have selected a limit of $5,000. The insurance company of the at fault driver would only be liable to pay up to $25,000 per person injured but no more than $50,000 for this accident for you and your passengers medical expenses. Your Medical Payments coverage would pay up to $5,000 dollars for the remainder of your medical expenses.
coordinate it with health insurance for subrogation reasons as stated above...however, depending on your state laws, it may be beneficial to check with a PI lawyer who actually deals with subrogation, as most agents are really quite ignorant about most of the claims process...
Assuming that your state does have medpay, while your passengers could claim against your Bodily Injury for pain and suffering, they will still need to take an amount to pay their doctor bills, and it may take months before the claim is paid, which may cause your passengers to be placed in collections and ruin their credit...Medpay is a pay as you incur expense rider, so their bills are paid within 30 days maintaining their credit rating...
That is a side issue I never mentioned because I thought my other arguments were strong enough...You may be ambulanced to the ER, recive x-rays, etc and incur a $1500 ER bill, plus radiology read fees all on the first day of the wreck...yet, if you receive physical therapy or chiropractioc for 3 months, the BI claim will not be settled for 4-6 months post accident...whereas medpay will pay those bills in 30 days (as would group health) recovering from your BI would take much longer than they are willing to wait, so when they are all sent to collections, their credit is shot, which is almost another kind of injury on top of the others I spoke about earlier, as now their loans will cost more in the future...
here in GA, Progressive, despite their ads, is usually for drivers who are high risk, so their medpay may be higher than what I pay...also, I would assume that premiums in NY, NJ, Chicago, LA, and other urban areas would be much higher than I pay, but, hey, I can get a restaurant burger and fries for $7, whereas I paid $17 for same in Grand Central Station back in 1983, so I assume it is now $30-35, so one will always expect the big city to be correspondingly higher, but you expect that anyway...
Okay, my husband was involved in an accident on Friday. He was the second car at a stop light. The guy that hit him took the right turn lane too fast and jumped the median clipped the rear of the car in front of my husband and hit the front of the drivers side on my husband's 02 ford f-150. You can actually see the frome poking out at about a 45 degree angle in the front. So far Geico has been very helpful and we already have a rental. The accident was totally the other guy's fault and my husband also suffered injuries to his back. The adjuster is coming out either Monday or Tuesday and we had the truck towed to the local ford dealer. My question is...is it better that we both have the same insurance company and what can we expect and what do we have to ask for that the ins co. might not want us to know about? We are in NC if that helps. Thank you
Your example:Settlement is $25,000.00 Atty Fee $ 8,000.00 Blue Cross $14,000.00 (they must be paid back) You Get $ 3,000.00 for all of your pain and suffering
Settlement is $25,000.00 Atty Fee $ 8,000.00 Medpay Payback$ 0,000.00 (medpay does not get paid back) You Get $17,000.00
What is there about the Med Pay clause, compared to the PIP clause that stops the HMO or Blue Cross from being made whole for the amount they put out?
I understand it shouldn't make any difference. Med Pay and PIP are both Primary and obligated to reimburse the HMO and Blue Cross. If not, how come? :confuse:
Medpay is first party insurance, and, as a part of your auto plicy, will only pay for injuries that are accident related, and do not have to be reimbursed, as that is why you have the add'l rider...
Group, like BCBS or any other health ins, usually has a clause in the policy (and who ever reads their group health policy???) that states that if there is any form of reimbursement available (like the other guy's bodily injury insurance portion of his liability policy), they will pay out but demand reimbursement (subrogation) from that third party policy...
There are some exceptions to that, interms of the "made whole" theory, but "made whole" to you may be much different that it is to them...medpay, cheap as it is, solves all that...
per se, as profiting by your injuries, as it is the injury that causes your loss...but I do hate to see just compensation for pain and suffering get lost because one does not know how the system works, and when anyone says that they can just let group insurance pay med bills, they will pay, but your pain and suffering is reduced because of subrogation payback, which most people are unaware until it slams them at settlement time...
Medpay trumps Kaiser because Kaiser is only provider of first resort for illness, or injury where there is no third party compensation, such as falling off your roof at home, or hurting your back while working in your garden...
Medpay is restricted only to auto injuries, and it will pay regardless of whether it is your fault or the other driver...if Kaiser spend money for your care from an auto accident that it not your fault, they want repayment, whereas medpay does not, so, the identical injury allows more pain and suffering to be placed in your pocket...
Please read the Rules - no advertising on the threads. I think we get enough of the Geicos and similar on TV. And the members here are pretty good in finding good deals, as you may have found out.
Comments
Were kinda at a stalemate. We had to fire our attorney because the best he could do was 34K. We decided to try and settle on our own...now we don't know what to do! They can't truly believe that's all the case is worth!? I can't seem to grasp their strategy....such a LOOOOOW offer on a case that all doctors agree...even there's. What now?? DO they really want to go to court on a case where their insured was 100% at fault? AAAAHHHHHHHH! So many questions and no answers!
1.5 times your specials is not sufficient reason to lodge a complaint with an insurance commission. Their strategy is simply - to hang onto their money as long as possible.
Your only strategy - hire another lawyer and sue. Period. If the case is as good as you say, they'll settle - eventually. Or you can let the jury decide how much you get.
omegagen...w/o knowing the facts, it does seem that $36K is low for $24K in meds, probably worth suing...however, what kind of meds are they???...for example, if you had $18K in physical therapy for soft tissue injury and $6K in diagnostics (EMG, MRI, x-rays) that were all negative for pathology (fractures, nerve damage), do not be surprised if a jury offers you something similar to State Farm's offer...excessive charges for "muscle strain" or cervical/thoracic sprain/strain will often get low awards from juries, as they "know" that sprain/strain injuries do not usually require that much treatment, regardless of how many doctors agree...
OTOH, if there were fractures, nerve damage, lacerations and scarring, with much rehab therapy after being disabled for months, then State Farm may be taking a great risk, as the case has value...
Also, what are policy limits for the policy, and do you have underinsured motorists insurance to pay the excess over their policy???...example: they have a $50K policy, a jury awards $125K...their policy will only pay their limits of $50K and collecting from individuals is often difficult, esp when they file Chapter 7...BUT, if your UIM policy, say, is $250,000, then you carry sufficient coverage for your policy to kick in and pay the difference, up to YOUR policy limits...
Which (here is Bob, the ongoing broken record) is why I recommend that everyone carry at least $100K in UM/UIM, with a $1 million umbrella (I pay $150 yearly for the umbrella), so if you ever get a high judgment, and the other guy has only $25K or $50K, your insurance will pick up the slack...
You never know if your next accident will cost you $250 in meds or $250,000 in meds, and it pays to be covered, as you never know if you will be struck by a careening cement truck driven by an unlicensed undocumented worker who is uninsured and has let the vehicle policy lapse as of 3 days ago...
She's been through alot and will someday need surgery which before the accident there weren't any problems...but what can you do?
Our previous lawyer was a poor excuse of an attorney and not because they couldn't settle with an acceptable amount, but their own paralegals told us in confidence that the attorneys in the firm didn't "work" her case. The para legal was very apologetic when terminated their services, hence we lost faith in attorneys during settlement phase. Contrary to some who believe we were trying to "beat the attorney" out their fee, we both agreed we could do better...you don't just fork over a fee because the mighty lawyer charges it...THEY have to earn it and ours DID NOT!!!
Plus, the law has what we call the "eggshell thin plaintiff" or, you take your plaintiff as you find him/her...example...if an older person has osteoporosis, and an auto accident (or a slip and fall injury, for that matter) causes broken bones, you might expect that the fractures would be more numerous and more serious than, say, the same impact on a 25 year old weightlifter...
NO MATTER...you take your plaintiff as you find them...the bad guy cannot get off the hook because he caused serious damage to someone with osteoporosis, he is now on the hook for GREATER damages because he injured someone with a pre-existing condition that made their injuries worse, and the bad guy must pay...
If your wife did have a pre-existing condition, but it was asymptomatic prior to the collision (aka subclinical), without any treatment, then the other guy has now injured someone who was "eggshell-thin" whioch has resulted in greater damage than would otherwise be noted...
You need another attorney, preferably one with a brain, and one who works with ortho/neuro doctors who are honest and will call it like they see it, and do not let State Farm off easy on this one...
Now, if your wife was seeing any doctor, MD, chiro, for regular treatment of back pain, this story may be different, as it may be hard to differentiate the amount of pain before vs after the wreck, but, still, if a disc is herniated with radiating pain, verified by EMG, where none was present before, you still have a strong case...
Let me know what is going on, compared to what I have just written...
Also be prepared for any mental health problem to be brought up that might be anywhere in any doctor's or health company's payment records. The plaintiff was painted as a hypochondriac-like patient in our case. The plaintiff attorney looked very hurt when she didn't get a huge settlement, only a small one to cover minor costs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If that assumption is not allowed, then for ANY injury you may assume that they would have eventually suffered from pain just from waiting long enough...i.e., yes, she broke her arm from falling on a wet floor, but just wait long enough for osetoporosis to set in and she will suffer from spontaneous fractures on her own, possibly right where she broke her arm in the fall...
Now juries may not see it that way, but I do believe that if there is objective evidence like MRI CT EMG with complaints of pain, and, assuming no complaints or objective finding prior to the collision, it is quite logical to assume that the trauma either caused a new condition or accelerated a pre-existing condition, and if she never had lower back complaints prior, then even assuming an accleration is to pretend that the trauma had no effect...then why have insurance for injury compensation, why not just tell folks to jump in the lake???
Disclosure: I am assuming that everyhting posted is true, and that facts and objective evidence is as I state it...if facts are different, or if there is no evidence other than her complaints of pain with no verifiable evidence, then my legal argument evaporates...soft tissue back pain (muscle sprain/strain) has poor compensation simply because it cannot be verified, and even tho muscle spasm is objective, it is not enough, BY ITSELF, to justify adequate compensation...it needs additional evidence to make it worthy, aside from "My back hurts and the doctor said I have spasms"...even if meds equal $20K, if the diagnosis is simply "sprain/strain" or "spasm", it would be lucky to be worth $5-10K...
But that was DC wasn't it? Even congressmen can't be searched there if you've read the news lately. Grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for filing a property destruction report, I called the police and they never showed up. Sad fact of life when living in DC. At least the reactions of people i've told this story to have been entertaining.
First, the hypothetical nightmare scenario. How is damages/liability calculated when there is a fatality in a collision? The term in liability insurance says "bodily injury" and "property damage" but nowhere is death mentioned so I am wondering what happens when a fatality is involved. The question is relevant when picking the higher limits for liability insurance (say $250K/person or something like that).
Second, I reside in California and talked to my State Farm agent a few days ago about getting med-pay. He gave me the impression that med pay is less useful than what Bob (marsha7) has been advocating so I am kind of confused. My agent told me that I can't separate the compensation from the other party. For example, let's say I get 100K from the other party. My meds are 50K and I have 50K of med pay. My agent gave me the impression that I would get 100K and 50K of that will go back to my health insurance company, leaving me with only 50K. I got the impression from Bob's posts that I would get (and keep) 100K while State Farm would pay 50K to my health insurance company.
Thank you in advance for your enlightenment!
Paul
You never know - we read all the time how dumb people are.
If you have assets and are concerned about liability, buy an unbrella with at least one million dollars of coverage.
I'm not licensed to practice in California and so can't comment on how things work out there. I personally believe med pay coverage to be (essentially) a waste of money and don't carry it myself.
Thank you for your response, I have some further questions if you don't mind.
Do you have a general formula for how liability would be calculated (I realize that a lot of factors are involved). Let me give you a hypothetical victim. 30 years old (does gender matter at this young age?) in good health, income $80K/yr a year (so a good amount of future earning potential), married, have two young children.
How much would the settlement be worth for this person?
Does that change whether this person has life insurance or not?
Does whether the spouse is employed matter or not?
Does it matter who's paying (i.e. the person causing the accident or the victim's insurance company if he/she has uninsured motorist coverage)?
Finally, I noticed one thing that was not mentioned as a factor: The income/assets of the person who caused the accident (though one would think the victim is worth the same regardless of who killed him/her).
I guess I am at a point where I can afford the personal liability umbrella but how do I know how much to buy (1/2/more millions)? I'd also like to know how those really high limits would protect me whether I am the one causing the accident or am a victim in an accident.
Thank you very much!
Paul
For example, while philosophically life is priceless, no one would ever get an award for, say, loss of spouse or a child for 50 billion dollars, as, a life just ain't worth that much...since you can't put a price on it, you must put a price on it (not double speak)...
So, if one was killed by a Fedex truck, one might expect between, say, $500K to 2-3 million, which, frankly, is probably more than enought to adequately compensate someone for loss of loved one...then there may be special circumstances, like the case where a train struck a car (it was the railroad's fault, never mind why) and killed both parents in the front seat but two 4 year old twins came out unscathed...the loss of both parents, plus incidentals brought an award of $51 million, or about 25 million apiece, but this is rare, and you can see the SUPER extenuating circumstances and the deep pockets of the railroad...
If some ordinary driver causes a death, but only has $25K in liability, insurance will pay out $25K and someone will surely sue, BUT WILL THEY COLLECT???...probably not, but if YOU have a $1 million umbrella policy on your UM, then your own policy will pay out $1 million to make up for his lack of sufficient insurance...
As far as medpay, it will only apply if you are in a fault state as opposed to a no fault state...to me, as it works in GA, medpay IS the best thing since sliced bread, as it pays your med bills without requiring reimbursement (group health requires to be paid back), so, if all your meds are paid, the entire settlement (less attorney fees if you have one) goes into your pocket...
A case example that I just settled...$25K liability limits, client had $11K in meds and was smart enough (lucky enough?) to have $10K in medpay...without medpay, the $11K would have come from the settlement, $8K in atty fees, leaving her with $6K for her ($25K less 11K less 8K equals $6K)...since medpay paid $10K of the $11K in meds, it noe becomes $25K less $1K (medical balance) less $8K equals $16K...so, by paying $75.00 for $10K in medpay, she walked away with $16,000.00 instead of $6,000.00...so by buying medpay for under $100, she gained an extra $10,000.00...how anyone can dispute medpay is beyond me, but for all those who do, hey, do it your way, I just work here...:):):)...and if you have group health, you have to pay them back so you might still lose the extra $10K in subrogation, which is why medpay far surpasses group health...unless your subrogation laws are different (and they might be), the argument against medpay, quiet frankly, evaporates into thin air, or at least it does under Georgia law...anyone in GA w/o medpay is, quiet objectively, irresponsible and a fool...
Often ins agents are aware of the payback, and act like they are saving you money in premiums by telling you that you do not need medpay if you have group health...they are either ignorant, misinformed, or lying, because my real life example above shows how $75 in medpay premium put $10K in her pocket...the math is irrefutable, at least under GA law...
Hey, I don't care what you do, all I do as an attorney is try to show you how to cover your buns in the best way possible...PLEASE...DON'T buy medpay, DON"t buy uninsured motorists insurance, DON'T get a $1 million umbrella policy, I really don't care...but when tragedy happens (and I sure hope it does not) and the other idiot has no insurance or a measley $25K, and you ask some attorney how you will be compensated for your serious injuries and your wife's injuries, after they deport the illegal immigrant with a 1975 Chevy van and no insurance, then what I say will make sense...since you cannot depend on the other guy, you must insure yourself for HIS stupidity, and that is why I beat the drum for more than the minimum insurance required, as I see the injuries and the devastated people who are now broke because they had liability only, $25K, yet they expected the OTHER guy to have the million dollar policy...if you suffer serious injury, you will be glad you had it...if you don't, it is hardly wasted money compared to what you will receive if you need it...
Soapbox now disassembled...
Given the above, what are the possbile _personal_ drawbacks to having 25/50 rather than 50/100 or higher. CA state minimum is 15/30. What do I risk by having low coverage level?
Thanks.
Your future income that gets attached for settling a suit.
It also appears that if I get med-pay and am injured in an accident, I would somehow need to get my insurance carrier to pay for my medical bills instead of using my (pretty good) health insurance (though I am not sure how I'd actually go about doing that).
euphonium, you touched on exactly the reason I am exploring how much insurance to buy. I don't want me future income to potentially be obligated to someone else.
But the proper way to look at it is, what would it do to your finances. Can you handle that $10k hole? Some people can, some people can't, and if ya can't, it's gonna "cost" you a lot more than $10,000 in the long run.
When I was a student, I always got "loss damage waivers" on rental cars... I knew it was a bad deal... nothing wrong with my math skills... but I couldn't afford the risk.
-Mathias
The last time I priced umbrellas, the additional cost was significant. I carry 100/300 and would have to increase it to 250/500 on all my cars before the umbrella could be added. I don't recall the exact figures, but it wasn't cheap, over a grand more per year.
I'm about to redo my coverages when my 18 yr old goes to college in August, so I'll post the numbers.
You are planning to argue what exactly? That your uncontrollable desire for a cheeseburger forced you into not putting enough care and attention into the vigorous maneuvers required to dodge the stationary drive thru post?
Something else you may want to consider. When you were talking to an adjuster about your future rates ... had a claim already been filed? If so, you're clean record may already be marred whether they pay out or not.
I guess my biggest question is at what point to people choose to file a claim over paying out of pocket. They say I will not truly know the rate increase until I file the claim so the 1K is an estimate. It seems that if the deductible is $500 and the cost increase will be $3000 then if it costs $3500 I should pay out of pocket?? IS that logic correct??
I know that other companies (if I switch) will be aware of the claim, I just thought if I shopped it around another company may not be so expensive for coverage. I had read 40% of the base.....so I was thinking more like 300 a year. Are there state statutes that regulate how much an insurance company can actually raise your rates??
An attorney where my works has offered to take her case for 20% during the settlement phase and of course, the std fee if it goes to trial.
This attorney believes that the "threat" of a federal lawsuit might make them more willing to settle the case for its true value.
Under what circumstances can auto liabilty cases be filed in federal court? Would this really compel them to settle? We're leaning towards just putting it in his hands because the insurance company seems in my opinion, as if they'd prefer us to use an attorney. They seem UNWILLING to settle with us. This whole process has been a mystery.
Thanks for everything!!!!!
Getting Quotes is one thing, but getting a new underwriter in a new company to accept your app is another matter.
I've know underwriters to reason that if this crash happens off the road, what kind of damage will this applicant do on the road?
Paulhuang...the purpose of medpay, if your state has it, is to bypass the paying of medical bills by your health insurance, because (once again, here in GA) group must be paid back by your settlement, whereas medpay does not, so more $$$ in your pocket...
euphonium: you raised the one point my diatribe did not mention...the other reason for medpay is that it covers ALL the occupants in your car, whereas your health ins only covers you and your family...
So, to respond to cccompson, you can certainly decide whether medpay is right for you, but if you ever suffer a serious accident with serious injuries, you will be covered by your health insurance, but your uninsured cousin/friend/girlfriend/uncle/yardworker/etc who has no health insurance, who is sitting in the passenger seat will have no coverage for medbills...and, if you are the one at fault, then you are forcing that party to probably file suit against you to have your liability coverage pay for his injuries...and, to beat this into the ground, he will have to use a portion of his settlement to pay his medbills, whereas if you had cheap medpay coverage, his recovery would certainly be better and last him longer...but why care about the passengers, since you have all the coverage you need for you???...gamble with your own life and finances, it is yours to gamble with, but you gamble with your passengers who are not immediate family members...since you seem to sleep well, go for it...
skor...as a grad student, you are probably not worth suing, but, as one stated, they can attach your future earnings via garnishment...better coverage would help that...you could always file bankruptcy to eliminate any judgment, but if you are trying for any professional certification or license, a bankruptcy may preclude (prevent) you from obtaining that license...better liability coverage is the cheapest way out...
Bearing in mind, the vast majority of folks carry minimum coverage and get away with it...but when I see the cases of the "more seriously" injured, minimum coverage falls short, very short...is it a gamble???...you bet, and for cccompson, he feels comfortable going w/o medpay...as long as you make an INFORMED decision, I am happy, but most of what I post here is foreign to most people, who have no idea that medpay exists, or why, or why an umbrella is useful, or why higher limits make sense...but, if you make an educated choice knowing your options, thenif you get screwed down the road by having no UM, or no medpay, or lose a lawsuit for $100 grand and only have $25K limits, at least you can say to the mirror that you deserve it because you decided not to cover yourself against that 1 in 1 million chance that your wreck in your Mini-Cooper would be with an uninsured cement truck instead of a motorcycle...
But, in closing, I am highly amused when someone complains to me that their portion of a settlement all went to pay their med bills, nothing goes in their pocket for lost wages, pain or suffering, and when I ask about why they did not have medpay, or UM, or we had to pay back their health insurance out of settlement, they all look at me and say, almost to a man, "It just isn't fair"...yes, it is quite fair, you simply gambled and lost...
What does bother me is that the $1000s (often MANY $1000s)they lost could have been salvaged by a few hundred dollars yearly, but they took the cheap route, so they end up with the cheap finale...almost poetic justice, if you ask me...
Remember, my entire thesis is based not on greed, but on the simpe principle that is someone injures you thru their carelessness in driving (negligence, in legal lingo) you should be compensated for your medbills, pain and suffering...remember further, compensation for pain and suffering is not a windfall for nothing, it is just compensation for your losses, whether earnings, inability to bend or walk, broken bones that laid you up, or whatever...if folks think I think folks get $$$ for nothing, that's nuts...but when folks are injured in a wreck, the one at fault should pay...but if that one has inadequate coverage, then, sadly, it falls to you to insure against his lack of insurance...hence, medpay, UM, high limits, etc...
I am telling you how to maximize your recovery without having to walk away with nothing, as many do when medbills are moderate ($10-15K) and the at fault party only has $25K in liability limits, lives in a 20 year old trailer, and works for cash at the local station, as he is judgment proof and cannot be garnished...if you do not have adequate insurance, you are doubly injured, injured by the collision, then injured again by your monetary loss since the money went to everyone but you...this is what I see all the time, so I know this is reality, regardless of what people think happens, they are wrong for the most part...
It is worth thinking about, since many insurance agents cannot/will not/do not go into this kind of detail when they sell folks auto insurance...
Disassemble soapbox, again...
Bob
Marsha, please explain why you have more $$$ in your pocket from medpay coverage, is it the actual medical expenses you have to pay for your medical bills from medpay coverage, you should not have any leftover in your pocket. while if you have no such coverage, your health insurance will pay this for you.
But the people who say "it's not fair" are exactly right: Fair is when you have an accident, not your fault, you get made whole again. Without having to pay extra up front.
I should mention that in Germany -- and perhaps in the rest of Europe -- if you let your insurance lapse, the police will come to your house, find your car, and take the license plates off of it. You can have them back when you show proof of insurance. By short-circuiting the ins co and the DMV, the problem of uninsured drivers pretty much doesn't exist. How the medpay stuff works I don't know, but I suspect it's fairly simple, since they have universal coverage...
Finally, what I hate about the whole thing is that it's such a dissertation. I still don't even know if I have Medpay. I have:
Liability Coverages
Bodily Injury
Property Damage
Uninsured Motorist
Personal Injury Protection
Property Protection
Limited Property Damage
Personal Injry Protection Excess Coverage
Work Loss: Income Benefits/Replacement Services
Physical Damage Coverages
Comprehensive
Van Contents
Basic Collision
Liability Coverages
Programs Required By State Laws
( this is the MI catastrophic claims fund; $144/car/year no matter how many cars you own).
Do I have MedPay? No idea. I do think medical bills are covered without limit through the catastrophic claims fund. But that's hearsay.
Why is all this stuff so danged complicated? Mostly 'cuz everything is state regulated and the US has the most byzantine health care system in the world...
To each his own soap box...
-Mathias
Ha, I sure wish it was like that here in Florida. My wife got rear ended by an uninsured driver (only minor bumper damage) and she didn't even get a ticket. She showed the cop a valid ins. card but when we went to file a claim, the company said she didn't pay it and let it lapse. So we call the investigating officer, several times leaving a msg. each time and he never called us back.
And I still refuse to get UIM protection. The amount of coverage here in Florida is minimal and it doesn't cover the vehicle. Playing devil's advocate here, I have good medical ins. through work, as well as Florida is a no fault state. Why would I get UIM protection?
Dear Sir: As we expect the judgement to be in excess of your policy limits, we are advising you to seek separate counsel to defend against that amount which is above and beyond your coverage.
The above was mailed to one of my clients who refused to carry more than $35,000 CSL. Yes, I had his signature on file acknowledging that higher limits were offered, but he refused the offer.
Bottom Line: Settled out of court for his policy limits many years ago in CA. It was a very close call for all.
In Michigan, if a car has no plate on the rear, it is immediately pulled over and the driver has some deep 'splainin' to do or else immediate arrest for unregistered uninsured vehicle...in GA, it seems like every fifth vehicle has a cardboard plate on the back which has scribbled on it in magic marker or crayon, "Stolen Plate" or "Lost Plate" and nobody stops them, so we lose the chance to check those drivers who may not have insurance...we literally blow it by ignoring them, whereas if every officer stopped them every 10 feet and gave them ticket after ticket, they would solve the problem quickly...
Also, it is sad that if one shows the officer an insurance card that turns out to be expired, the victim has to find the officer and track them down to find the offending driver a week or 2 later to give them a ticket for driving uninsured...one would think that the system would be more efficient than that...for the benefit of drivers, I really like the "[non-permissible content removed]" tactics of the Michigan State Patrol, because it is only the offending uninsured who are targeted, and that is for the benefit of the rest of us...oh, and if they are falsely accused???...all they have to do is show a VALID insurance card and the officer will leave and go eat donuts...:):):):):)
Wai- let's say you are struck and injured by a driver who has the state minimum of $25K in liability limits...other than that, he lives in a trailer and paints houses for cash, so you will never garnish him and he is, in effect, judgment proof, so all you have is his $25K policy to pursue...
Obviously, if your medbills are only $800.00, then your case is barely worth $1,500-$2,500, so his limits are meaningless, you have a small case with no problems...
But, let's say that your injuries were moderate to severe, and your treatment costs, between Emergency Room, MDs and Chiropractors was $14K ($14,000.00)...I am assuming you hire an attorney, but this example works even if you don't...
With $14K in meds, you will probably easily settle for his policy limits of $25K...REMEMBER, YOU WANTED TO USE YOUR GROUP HEALTH TO PAY THOSE $14K IN MEDS...well, your group health will SUBROGATE against your claim and demand repayment for the $14K they paid out on your behalf...
Settlement is $25,000.00
Atty Fee $ 8,000.00
Blue Cross $14,000.00 (they must be paid back)
You Get $ 3,000.00 for all of your pain and suffering
Settlement is $25,000.00
Atty Fee $ 8,000.00
Medpay Payback$ 0,000.00 (medpay does not get paid back)
You Get $17,000.00
I see a material difference in whether you get $3K for pain and suffering or $17K...if you don't see it, I cannot be of help from here...
This is not about greed, it is about fair compensation after an injury...and if a $75-100 yearly policy can put that kind of money in your pocket after a true compensable injury (we are not talking fake injuries, we are talking injured people here), it would take 170 years worth of premiums (170 x $100 yearly = $17,000.00) to equal the payout you could get by having medpay...
This does not even consider that if you had four passengers who are all seriously injured, that $75 premium covers each of them with $25K-$100K of medical coverage at no extra charge, so if each of them had a similar recovery, your measly medpay premium can put many, many $1000s in multiple people's pockets, hopefully compensating them fairly for injuries that someone else caused...
So, when anyone wants to gamble without it, feel free to do so...but when your passengers are injured and your group insurance pays your med bills but not theirs, and they find out you could have bought cheap insurance but gambled with THEIR lives, I don't want to be ther when you tell them that they could have received additional funds for their injuries but you chose the cheap route because YOU had health insurance...
Now what if I was the one at fault. Would the Bodily Injury policy cover that or would it still be Med pay?
And for those not sure what med pay is, this is from progressive.com:
Medical Payments
What is covered?
Medical Payments coverage covers you if you are involved in an automobile accident and consequently incur medical or funeral expenses due to bodily injury sustained in an accident. This coverage also protects you and relatives who reside in your household while in other vehicles or if struck as a pedestrian. Certain exclusions may apply.
What does it pay?
The limit that you select will be the most that will be paid to each person insured on your policy in one single accident. This coverage pays per person after all other coverages that may apply have been used regardless of fault.
Why do I need this?
Many people buy this coverage to supplement their health insurance coverage. It is a very inexpensive supplement to your medical insurance when you are involved in an automobile accident.
Example
You are involved in an accident where it has been determined that the total medical expenses for you and your passengers is in the amount of $55,000 dollars. The other driver was at fault and only had Bodily Injury coverage limits of $25,000 per person/$50,000 per accident. You did not have Uninsured / Underinsured Motorists coverage. You have selected a limit of $5,000. The insurance company of the at fault driver would only be liable to pay up to $25,000 per person injured but no more than $50,000 for this accident for you and your passengers medical expenses. Your Medical Payments coverage would pay up to $5,000 dollars for the remainder of your medical expenses.
Assuming that your state does have medpay, while your passengers could claim against your Bodily Injury for pain and suffering, they will still need to take an amount to pay their doctor bills, and it may take months before the claim is paid, which may cause your passengers to be placed in collections and ruin their credit...Medpay is a pay as you incur expense rider, so their bills are paid within 30 days maintaining their credit rating...
That is a side issue I never mentioned because I thought my other arguments were strong enough...You may be ambulanced to the ER, recive x-rays, etc and incur a $1500 ER bill, plus radiology read fees all on the first day of the wreck...yet, if you receive physical therapy or chiropractioc for 3 months, the BI claim will not be settled for 4-6 months post accident...whereas medpay will pay those bills in 30 days (as would group health) recovering from your BI would take much longer than they are willing to wait, so when they are all sent to collections, their credit is shot, which is almost another kind of injury on top of the others I spoke about earlier, as now their loans will cost more in the future...
Maybe my epitaph ought to read, like milk ads,
"Got Med-Pay?"
Bob
Atty Fee $ 8,000.00
Blue Cross $14,000.00 (they must be paid back)
You Get $ 3,000.00 for all of your pain and suffering
Settlement is $25,000.00
Atty Fee $ 8,000.00
Medpay Payback$ 0,000.00 (medpay does not get paid back)
You Get $17,000.00
What is there about the Med Pay clause, compared to the PIP clause that stops the HMO or Blue Cross from being made whole for the amount they put out?
I understand it shouldn't make any difference. Med Pay and PIP are both Primary and obligated to reimburse the HMO and Blue Cross. If not, how come? :confuse:
Group, like BCBS or any other health ins, usually has a clause in the policy (and who ever reads their group health policy???) that states that if there is any form of reimbursement available (like the other guy's bodily injury insurance portion of his liability policy), they will pay out but demand reimbursement (subrogation) from that third party policy...
There are some exceptions to that, interms of the "made whole" theory, but "made whole" to you may be much different that it is to them...medpay, cheap as it is, solves all that...
Medpay trumps Kaiser because Kaiser is only provider of first resort for illness, or injury where there is no third party compensation, such as falling off your roof at home, or hurting your back while working in your garden...
Medpay is restricted only to auto injuries, and it will pay regardless of whether it is your fault or the other driver...if Kaiser spend money for your care from an auto accident that it not your fault, they want repayment, whereas medpay does not, so, the identical injury allows more pain and suffering to be placed in your pocket...