Questions About Auto Insurance and Accidents

e39_touring · April 2005

Claimants have had a difficult time proving dimished value claims as it's not a "real economic" cost to you unless you sell your vehicle. Think about this example: your brand new car (41 miles) is hit, and there's $3k of body damage. The at fault party is required to make you whole, which means bringing your vehicle back to it's pre-accident condition (functionally, appearance, etc. - they can't erase the fact that it's been in an accident). Now, if you sold your vehicle after it was repaired, you might get a few thousand dollars less than the exact same vehicle with no accident history. You could probably recover that if you document everything thoroughly. If you keep you car, however, drive it for 5 yrs and then sell it, it may only sell for a few hundred less than a comparable vehicle without the accident history. So, in this case, you would have pocketed a few thousand dollars should the car insurance company pay you up front for DV without really suffering the loss. And, after 5 years, it will be really difficult to prove any substantial difference in value (and collect) from an accident 5 yrs ago. Also, unfortunately, the fact that you know the car's been in an accident doesn't entitle you to collect anything in this situation. Good luck!

.

euphonium · April 2005

I understand your point, however, if we agree DV is part of the loss, then compensation is expected for that part of the loss. As it is not a requirement to repair the damage, the claimant can keep the money and drive it damaged and in this case he pockets a few thousand dollars. DV is a measurable figure especially in a brand new vehicle with 41 miles. The amount of the DV is the difference between the market value of his car and one on the show room floor that has not been damaged. Even though his damaged car was repaired, the car was made whole, but the Value to the owner has been diminished and he is entitled to compensation for that DV. Because he may pocket the money is just as fine as if he decided to pocket the cost of repairs and drive it damaged. It is a measureable value to which he is entitled. I agree that 5 years down the road there is not much to talk about, except during those 5 years the value of his vehicle was less than had it not been damaged. Yes, after 5 years, DV diminishes.

tim10 · April 2005

Four months ago, my vehicle was damaged to the tune of approx $1000 while in the care of a dealership as collateral for a test drive overnight. They signed on the dealership letterhead that they were responsible for the damage (I quickly denied their first draft which said they accept responsibility only if they do the repair!). They are still only willing to help me if I use their bodyshop for the repair, which I am not willing to do. After sending a certified letter and waiting a month, I got no written reply just a call saying if I want it fixed call to schedule an appointment. Two estimates, one that they gave me the other from a competing shop were virtually identical in price.

I decided to take things into my own hands and filed a claim with the dealer's insurance carrier. Two weeks later the adjuster calls and said it's an open and shut case against the dealership BUT the dealer has advised them that they were handling the matter directly. I was very surprised--is this kind of thing even legal? Shouldn't an insurance carrier be obligated to settle a claim even if the insured party says "I'll take care of it myself" (since they obviously aren't following through with that part). Still, I have my doubts that this falls within their deductible unless there is some hidden damage that hasn't been found yet.

The police dept says that I have the right to have my vehicle repaired anywhere I want, where can I find this in writing so that I can take to the District Justice with me? I doubt the district justice can be expected to be 100% versed on PA insurance laws, so I hope to bring some info with me for them to review. The clerk said I probably need to name multiple parties in the suit--the dealership (corporation), the sales manager who signed the liability notice, if I can find out the employee name who hit my car, and possibly the dealership owner. What do the pros on here recommend??

rickvh · April 2005

You have a few options.

Though I'm curious why your wary of the dealer fixing it directly? If they guarantee the work?

That sounds correct that you should be able to get your vehicle repaired anywhere you choose. We have that law in my state too.

If you dont want to deal with either the dealer or their insurance company, you can file a claim with yours (insurance co) and have them subrogate to the dealers insurance company for the loss.

tim10 · April 2005

I didn't want to use the dealer to fix it directly, because I had a bad experience with their collision center in the past. They repainted a different door and while they have a written guarantee of their work they would do northing to satisfy my concerns for the orange peel or dust that's underneath the paint surface.

I won't claim on my insurance, at the time I had a $500 deductible which is more than half the damage, and my insurance company is weak when it comes to subrogating the damage when it's not profitable for them to do so. It may therefore come back to haunt me if I do file.

Today the adjuster called me back and had me fax the estimates-apparently the dealer doesn't want a civil suit against them. Fingers are crossed.

Hopefully one of my original questions will get answered on the board.... Can an insurance company refuse to pay claim even when it's not disputed that their insured caused damages, simply on the basis that the insured tells them they will take care of it directly?

euphonium · April 2005

The Garage Liability policy can be ignored by the dealer should he decide to repair your car himself. His carrier can not be forced by you to trigger his policy for it is not your contract to trigger.

If you scratched another vacant car's bumper in a parking lot, you have the option of taking care of it yourself or filing a Property Damage claim with your company. The owner of the damaged bumper has no position or standing, when you take care of it yourself, to claim against your policy and company. When you indemnify the other owner for damages, there is no claim with the company. If you could trigger another's policy when you've been made the offer you received from the dealer, that opens the passage to collecting twice which is why you can't.

gnulooks · April 2005

I was just involved in a car collisioin. I was traveling eastbound in the #1 lane in very slow, but heavy traffic. The traffic was backed up for about 3/4 of a mile. I was attempting to get into the two-way left-turn lane. I looked into the my left rear view mirror, but I did not see any vehicles. My rear view mirror was obstructed by a large truck, which was directly behind me. I attempted to merge into the two-way left-turning lane when I was sideswipped by another vehicle.

It turns out the vehicle that I collided with was illegally using the two-way left-turn lane to avoid the heavy traffic on this roadway. I already know that the vehicle was in the wrong because he was using the two-way left-turn lane to make it to the next stop light, which was at least a good 500 ft away. Also, that stop light was the only place that the vehicle could have conducted a legal left turn at.

No report was taken, but I did file a counter report with CHP. I have already filed a claim with the guys insurance, but I would like some advice as to what I can expect from the claims adjuster. Also, I am wondering how I can pursuade the insurance company to pay for all the damages to my vehicle.

steine13 · April 2005

From your description, it sounds like you side-swiped him and not the other way around. Apparently, he was in your blind spot and you didn't turn your head. [That's good, btw, real men never turn their head in traffic. I almost never do.]

Even if he was illegally in that lane, if you drive into him, you are at fault.

-Mathias

mikefm58 · April 2005

Whether he was using that lane to bypass traffic or using it for a legitimate left turn doesn't matter. You pulled in to that lane without properly checking and side swiped him. I'd suggest you be ready for an answer like that from your insurance company.

PS.....Only real careless men don't turn their head to look.

mark156 · April 2005

Mathias and Mike, it all depends on the circumstances whether a person pulling in the left turning lane will be at fault. It appears that Gnulooks was so far back from the intersection that he/she might be equally at fault for the accident not totally at fault.

I was in a very similar accident in 1978 which was my first accident (second accident was in 2003, none my fault--so far). I was driving my 1972 Dodge Charger and traffic was backed up for cars that wanted to proceed through the intersection. I decided that I would make a left turn instead.

When I came to a stop in the long procession of cars (maybe for just about 15 seconds waiting) I decide to make my left turn. As I pulled about 3 feet into the turning lane I was hit by a Datsun 210 hatchback damaging my front quarter panel ahead of the wheel well. The accident pulled out my "real chrome" bumper and knocked off my hidden headlight cover and of course damaged the paint on that fender.

The girls Datsun (1976?) was scraped along the whole side from front to back. She was issued a ticket for driving "straight" in a turning lane. What saved me was that I just happened to make my entry at the point where the yellow double line had stopped and where there was an opening just before the solid white line started. I was at the "entrance" of the left turn lane.

So, it depends at what point that "gnulooks" was entering the turning lane but it sounds like he/she was too far back. The other person was definitely driving straight in a turning lane which is illegal.

Mark

cadillacmike · April 2005

Are you guys talking about a "suicide" lane??? If so the what was the original poster doing trying to get into that lane if there was "no legal turn until the next stop light".......

euphonium · April 2005

IMO the other vehicle had prior equity in that lane. For what reason doesn't matter. Just as you don't pull out into the street from a parking space without clearance, you don't pull into another lane without clearance. Ascertaining clearance is your responsibility as is the crash.

mark156 · April 2005

Euphonium, we are not mosquito's with a billion eyes ;o) ... sure it matters why that other car was driving straight in a turning lane. They were illegal driving straight in a turning lane whether it was a suicide lane or not. What will also be a factor (we don't know yet), is if there was a business/home to turn left into before the light at the intersection.

Gnulooks will have to clarify.

Mark

euphonium · April 2005

That a left turn lane exists evidences there are businesses and or homes to turn left into before the light at the intersection. The burden of safety is always upon the driver making the lane change. We can only guess the intent of the driver proceeding in the left turn lane 500 feet before the intersection. He could have intended to make a left turn into either a home/business or at the intersection down the road. Makes no difference. He was crashed by a lane changer.

As for mosquitos and their eyes, it is wise to clean the front of the car frequently because windshield insects can really bug you!

mark156 · May 2005

Eurphonium, you have good sense of humor!

Gnulooks needs to clarify about the turning lane. I've seen suicide turning lanes where there are no businesses/homes to turn into. It's almost like a "barrier" lane more than a turning lane until you come up to an intersection.

I'm just glad that I made the decision to make my turn at the "entrance" to the turning lane or I would have gotten the "driving straight in the turning lane" ticket.

After so many years of driving... I always turn my head when changing lanes, and I've been surprised many-a-time that there was a car there that I couldn't see in my mirrors.

Mark

marsha7 · May 2005

I always turn my head and check, even tho I have blind spot mirrors on both sides, how one can change lanes w/o looking is taking too much on baseless faith, IMO... depedning on what the other guy says, it may be interesting to establish fault...you said no police report was made...#1 rule for any collision, call the police and get a report...once vehicles are moved, fault difficult to prove...once accident info is called in one hour later, after leaving scene of wreck, impossible to prove, and whoever is innocent will get screwed, unless the bad guy was a priest, and even that may be shaky...unless cops took 4 hours to get there, no police report was your first and worst mistake, and now you are backpedaling, trying to undo the damage caused by your mis-handling of the event...

steine13 · May 2005

"[..] how one can change lanes w/o looking is taking too much on baseless faith [..]"

Nothing baseless about it. I try to always know what's going on all around me. Driving a 55 hp car on the Autobahn at an early age is a good start.

On a four-lane freeway, I never turn around cuz I know who's there. In town, there's too much going on typically -- people can get into the center lane from anywhere -- and six-lane freeways can get tricky.

But it's good practice. You just have to be honest and look when you're not 100% sure. Of course, that's sissy :-)

-Mathias

star3 · May 2005

Recently while stopped at a red light a Mack truck ran into the back of my car. The driver got out of his truck saying he had insurance. The car has been totaled as told to me by the body shop manager. he reported the adjuster will call me next week. While reviewing Edmunds used car price there are a few items not mentioned that my car has/d. The cost of the car will not purchase another vehicle at that cost. What are my options? :

euphonium · May 2005

Find another vehicle as close to yours as possible in every way. If you find several, that is to your benefit. The adjuster will be obligated to pay the market value of your vehicle in the area where the crash happened. It doesn't matter what the guide books say, it's what the regional market dictates. Remember to pro rate the license and include any Sales Tax because you can't buy another car without paying those fees. Good Luck.

marsha7 · May 2005

I agree with you, I try and know what is going on around me at all times...but, it just adds one more layer of caution to turn one's head and check left or right blind spots, and, considering it can be performed in less than 0.5 seconds, I can hardly think one would truly depend just on mirrors...a good exception, however, is when I am driving up in the left lane to pass someone on my right and then move into the right lane...once I pass the car, and then see the car in my rearview mirror, "knowing" that no one came between us, I will change lanes in front of the car I just passed...

goldrich · May 2005

2001 XCV70 93,000 miles. In good condition. Up until now no damage to interior or exterior. Owner of a Lincoln Navigator backed up into my driver rear door and qtr panel. The force bent in the door shell making the door inoperable and like a can opener tore a piece of the rear panel. A picture would tell a thousand words.

I am at the point I begining to consider a new car perhaps hybrid..And now this.

I'm writing because

1)I'm concerned about the depreciation value now that my car was hit. I understand that insurance companies do pay for depreciation of value, but it is usually for a brand new car. My dealer gave me values from THE BLACK BOOK The value of my car drops due to mileage from 20,700 (trade in value 18,002) to 17,450 (14,950) to something around 14,500 (12,000). I would appreciate hearing from those who might have been down this path with a car older. I would be asking for them to pay around $2900 for this depreciation.

costs of The damage is superficial but still costing alot. The driver at fault submitted it to his insurance. My dealer told me in Car Facts the car will be listed as indicating it was in an accident.. someone searching the vin on my car would see this.

2) the repair estimate: requires a new door and they would get a used one. I told him I would not accept a used door. He told me the insurance company won't go that. Of course, I'm to assuming they will or won't. I believe I have the right to a new genuine volvo part that has no unknown history. (apropos my car now being listed as wrecked as if the car was in a serious accident)

Looking for those who might have been down this path or know the ropes to advise me.

thank you

rroyce10 · May 2005

....... Hmmm, this must be "diminished value week" .l.o.l...

Well, this ain't no one-thousand mile 05 Lexus ....

The Volvo XC has almost 100k, it's almost 6 years old and we have a bad door and some body and some paintwork down the drivers side ....

So unless your having Charles Manson (or Marilyn Manson) doing the work with rubber stoppers and tooth brushes, then there won't be much in diminished value ... BA (before accident) it was probably worth "around" the $12/$13,0 range .. AA (after accident) it's probably worth the $11/$12,0 range ..... $2,900.? I don't see it, but I ain't lookin' at the finished product - and either are you ...

:shades: ..... the super tall miles will do more damage than the accident ..............

Terry.

euphonium · May 2005

IMO there is no D.V. in your situation. In fact, why not accept a used door, it's going on a used car and when the masking tape is removed you won't be able to tell the difference by looking at it. Why should an insurance company support your love affair with your old high mileage Volvo? Were it a P1800 trophy car, that's another case.

redjess · May 2005

My F250 SD was recently hit, the other party, being at fault is repairing my truck however my question is this... later when I go to trade in my truck will the value be decreased since it was in an accidnet? With everyone now having access to carfax, I want to make sure that if the value is going to go down just because it was previously in an accidnet that I get the difference from the auto carrier now before the claim is closed. Do dealers automatically deduct a certain amount or % whenever they see a car was previously wrecked even if the damage has been fixed??? Any help is appreciated.
Thanks -
Jess

greenbeacon · May 2005

Well Terry, if it's "diminished value week," you have a customer.

2005 Audi A4Q 3.0 automatic, 7000 miles. In the process of getting a new hood, fender, bumper, grille, headlight, and a few other bits and pieces. Other insurer has conceded liability. And they also have to deal with the at-fault driver's S-Class which was hurting worse.

It's getting fixed, but of course it's not fresh off the boat from Ingolstadt anymore. Any thoughts on how much of a hit the value has taken, and how one might back that up?

simon562 · May 2005

While we are at it, here is an update on my story.

Brand new 2005 Ford Explorer with 41 miles. The other party is at fault and was ticketed. Initial damage estimate is $8k. This will rise when they start tearing the vehicle apart. The other party has $10k of PD coverage. Therefore, the $10k will be used up between the repairs, towing, rental car, etc. when my insurance company subrogates against the at-fault's insurer. So, unless I'm missing something, there is no way for me to recover any diminished value from the other party's insurer. I believe the DV has to be at least $5k.

I'm still going to pursue my insurer giving me a new car, especially if the costs to repair go over $10k. My question to them is how can they possibly restore a brand new car to its "pre-loss condition" when it has $10k in repairs? Any other thoughts?

mark156 · May 2005

Everyone talks about Dimished value, has anyone every received money from an insurance company for DV? Or even from the at fault driver?

Terry, what is your take on this?

Mark

bronsonb · May 2005

Late last year, my wife was sideswiped in our 1999 VW Passat GLS by someone who admitted fault. State Farm paid for the repairs, which amounted to about $2500. The only new parts were the back bumper and the right rear door panel. All of the dings were taken out at the shop. The shop, Magnum Collision in Kennesaw, GA matched the black paint PERFECTLY.

Anyway, after all was said and done, we got a check for diminished value from State Farm. It was for $27. That's right, twenty-seven bucks. Made me laugh. :P Granted, we expect to keep this car another 4 years at least, and by then we'll probably just hold on to it as a spare as it probably won't be worth much to sell.

corvette · May 2005

I was rear-ended by an uninsured in a car I no longer own. The damages came to $512 for a new bumper and absorber. My deductible is $500. I paid the $500 in June, 2004. I later received a letter from my insurance company (State Farm) to the effect that the at-fault party was nonresponsive and they were turning the matter over to their attorneys. Are they actually going to litigate this claim, or are they just blowing smoke? Do they have a duty to me as a policyholder to recover my deductible?

corvette · May 2005

I'd think the DV would be closer to $500, even with a perfect repair, if there was $2500 in damage. Insurance companies often just put the amount of damage into a computer program to come up with a lowball figure.

If it happened last year, you can probably still call them and complain that the DV amount is inadequate.

euphonium · May 2005

Simon: A professional insurance agent would have provided you with a coverage called, "Underinsured Motorist Property Damage" Liability. That coverage is triggered when the adverse, at fault, party doesn't have enough Property Damage Liability or none at all. There is no deductible on your part when the at fault is identified, but where there is "Hit & Run", there is a $100 Deductible. Hopefully, you have UMPD & that will cover accident cost over $10k. If you don't have UMPD, then you can claim under your collision. Eventually, your carrier will get their and your money back. I've seen it take 10 years, but at least the irresponsible are made responsible. Happy Day.

corvette · May 2005

He probably has that, but I doubt if he will be able to recover diminished value from his own policy unless he lives in a state (like Georgia) that does not allow insurance companies to disclaim DV. In that case, if he uses all or almost all $10k of the other motorist's liability insurance to pay for the body work, then there is nothing left to get for diminished value unless he sues the at-fault party on his own.

euphonium · May 2005

When you consider that UMPD is like an umbrella for the adverse party's 10,000 PD and the UMPD stacks, IMO he doesn't have to sue to get monies above the 10,000 PD limits of the at fault party because UMPD provides the coverage.

euphonium · May 2005

This post is to correct #852. In most states there is a $100 deductible when the at fault party is identified, but where there is "Hit & Run", the deductible is $300.

In reading the UMPD endorsement, there isn't an exclusion for D.V. Thus, it would appear that if the adverse party's primary P.D. Liability would pay for D.V., UMPD would as well.

corvette · May 2005

Now I see... State Farm does not offer UMPD, if the tortfeasor is uninsured, you claim it on your own collision coverage, which does disclaim diminished value, except in states where they can't.

euphonium · May 2005

Where is it written State Farm does not offer UMPD? It's pretty universal and catholic for most companies these days. Where is it written that D.V. is excluded under the Collision Coverage section of the policy.

"If it ain't excluded, it's covered." arose since the Liberalization clause surfaced years ago.

Because we don't know if our friend had UMPD, perhaps our posts are for not.

corvette · May 2005

In Kentucky, diminished value is specifically excluded under the terms of the policy, even if you are hit by an uninsured. I do not have the binder for my policy with me, but have attempted to make a diminished value claim under the coverage that I have (full coverage of everything except towing and car rental), and was denied because it's excluded, even though I was hit by an uninsured.

Go here:
http://www.statefarm.com/insuranc/auto/auto.htm

Do a quote for Kentucky. Answer all the goofy questions about your driving record. Put in a random address from the yellow pages as your address. Look at the options for the policy. There is un/underinsured coverage for injuries, but not property damage. I will ask my agent when I go to insure my new car, I hope you're right, as I would like to have this coverage, but it appears to be unavailable, at least from State Farm, in Kentucky.

Edit: I know that, if I hit someone, and I am at fault, State Farm *will* pay the not-at-fault party for *their* diminished value. Kind of one-sided, isn't it?

simon562 · May 2005

Just got back from being out of the country for a few days. The car that had the accident is my second car. I planned on driving it less than 3,000 miles per year, therefore, I got the minimum coverage I could get. I have full coverage on my primary car, and minimal on this one. I learned my lesson on that.

I'm not sure if State Farm offers the uninsured physical damage or not. When I was going through getting the car insured, the agent discussed uninsured motorist coverage as it relates to injuries and medical bills, but they never mentioned anything on physical damage.

I'm going to file the DV claim with the at-fault's insurer. I don't know if there is a way I can reach a settlement and get paid before State Farm subrogates on the claim for the repairs.

ggoogley · May 2005

I was in a car accident recently. The other driver accepted that it was his fault and even told that to the cop who was at the site. I didn't know that the cop did not file a report. I am thinking of filing a counter report. Is there anything else that I can do to make sure that the other driver doesn't change his story?

Thanks

corvette · May 2005

Check your agreement--there is probably a clause that requires you to notify them before entering into a settlement with the other party.

marsha7 · May 2005

I realize that this may be a little late, but, when you have a second car that you only drive a little, I always advocate that you keep the same coverage as your main car, with the same recommended high policy limits, with one exception, which will be noted shortly...

Liability: just because you only drive it 100 miles a month, since an accident by definition is, an accident, why would you carry lower limits, as the chance of a wreck is the same in any car you drive;

Medpay: folks often drop medpay on the second car...dumb, to me...why would anyone think that they might be injured in their main car but not their second car???...that is what one is saying when they drop medpay on the secondary vehicle...I don;t care what they say to me, their actions can only imply one thing, that they will place themselves at higher risk in their second car, as tho there is a lesser chance of collision and injury...

Uninsured motorists: same logic

Exception: collision and comprehensive...if the second car (or the primary, for that matter) is an old clunker barely worth a few thousand dollars, it would be silly to spend $500-1000 yearly for comp and collision, where you are virtually paying to insure yourself...if I had a 10 year old Buick worth $1500, I would not carry comp and collision...but I would always carry max liability, max medpay and UM, since you never know how bad one can be injured in a wreck, regardless of the value of the vehicle...

corvette · May 2005

Check with your agent if you have more cars than drivers--some companies allow you to aggregate the liability coverage from your policies, or at least they used to. This is probably not kosher if you have an umbrella policy which requires certain minimum underlying coverage, however.

ellusionz21 · May 2005

I was wondering what kind of rates this car pulls in. Is it considered a sporty expensive thing to insure or what? I dunno much about insurance so thanks for any info. you can tell me.

mld · May 2005

Hello everyone,

I just got a call from my insurance co. to tell me that my car is being deemed a total loss as the result of an accident that i was in. I was hit on the passenger side right at the right front wheel. The car really did not look that bad but because it was at the wheel it broke the axle. It is a 1999 Jetta which was in perfect condition. They want to know if I want to keep the car and or have them buy it out right. The difference would be $2,000. I am thinking I may be able to sell it to a salvage yard for more than that. Is it worth the hassle? Can anyone help me out here? They need an answer kind of quick?

Thanks guys!

M

needhelp10 · May 2005

needhelp05 · May 2005

I have a 94 Mazda 626 LX, 95K on it. I was hit recently. The other party's fault. Their insurance (Progressive) wants to total it and offer me $2040 (or $1850 for me to keep it). Blue book value for retail is about $3400. NADA high value is $3300. Progressive used NADA average $2700 and deducted something for painting etc. I called a local Mazda dealer for an estimated retail price for 94 mazda 626 but they said they don't have that type of car and asked me to check blue book, which Progressive said they don't take. Anyone has any good suggestions?

qbrozen · May 2005

I think maybe you need to involve your insurance company. AFter all, it is what you pay them for. They can go after their other party's insurance company. Just a thought.

But, in any case, I would be arguing for replacement value, NOT projected value of what they think it will be worth after its fixed. That's ridiculous.

euphonium · May 2005

All you need to do is find another vehicle like the one you had that's for sale. Considering it's over 10 years old you can include cars from 8 to 11 years old for the market value.

Now you may think your doing the Adjuster's job and you are, but the task is to come up with authentic figures he, the adjuster, can justify to his claims manager.

An adjuster has never been chewed out for paying too little! Good Luck in you quest.

euphonium · May 2005

Salvage yards usually pay insurance companies more than individuals due to their being steady customers and there has already been a relationship of business established.

From what you have related, total it out, take the collision check and go shopping.

needhelp05 · May 2005

Thanks for the suggestions. I will see what I can do. I am asking for an estimate from my insurance company. I will also try to come up with some numbers as well. Progressive is well known, at least in my area, for their mean payments. I hope this won't drag to small claim court.

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