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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    Yes, it is wide and shallow - which is why is can make sloshing noises from time to time.

    Caviller - it's really funny how thought about shifting to Neutral if that were to happen to you - considering that's the action I thought of when the LA times article first came out.

    Did chrysler get around to solving their tranny problems? What was the culprit? As you can tell, I have a year's worth of news to try and catch up on.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    You posted ". I heard numbers upwards of 50% failure rates for some series of these automatics. " If you have a credible source please post it, otherwise it is pure conjecture. The Mopar chat boards ackowledge problems with the 4 speed units used in models starting in 1989. Some, but not all, of the problems were attributed to using or adding the wrong type of transmission fluid in these transmissions. GM or Ford fluid will work for a while then the clutches start to slip requiring a rebuild to replace all the clutches. Quick lube service locations were probably the biggest contributor to this problem. Most of these would fail by slipping or refusing to move the vehicle.
  • cavillercaviller Member Posts: 331
    Isn't speculation and unsupported conjecture a great thing? It works well with just about any documented reliability issue.


    The 50% number probably referred to the worst series of the original A604 version of this engine, though it was presumably much improved by the mid and late 90s. True? I have no idea, and really don't care since we no longer own the Cirrus. Here are some details on the problems, from various viewpoints:


     http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/CHRYSLER-ultradrive.htm


     http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html


     http://www.lemonaidcars.com/chrysler.htm


    The point is you can find documented reliability issue on most vehicles. That doesn't mean they are all safety issues, nor does it mean that buyers of the current models necessarily even have the same liklihood of problems.

  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    ...that every single 90s Caravan owner I know with the 4spd has had the trans replaced. When I meet somebody with one and we talk cars, that's my first question and it's a yes answer without fail. I did have one no response, from a 3spd owner who tows with his 4cyl. Seems like DC can make them bad and good.
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    from the Caravan owners I knew, 3 out of 3 had them fail and replaced in less than 5 years. One was on their fourth when they decided to ditch the minvan.

    They were certainly patient people.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I have had no transmission problems so far. This is the 4 speed with the 3.3 Liter engine. So now you know of at least one who has not had a transmission failure.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    but no
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I drove my '89 Voyager for ten years/90,000 miles and never a peep out of the tranny.

    Steve
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  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    DC sold over 8 million minivans and they are nearing 10 million. using the "acceptable" Honda failure rate of 1.6% times 8 million that would mean 128,000 failed. Maltb and milong let us know when you have found more than 128,000! Now you know three that did not, 96 Grand Caravan ES with 60,000 miles and no problems.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    your title doesn't show up...weird.

    Knowing 3...
    have we met before?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The software guy is messing around with access lists and making macros today. I think I'll get promoted back to Steve_HOST any minute now (and yes, my delete tools are still working, LOL).

    Steve
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    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    Although all 3 people I know with DCs had a bad tranny, it doesn't mean that 100% of all DCs have bad trannys.

    Although three people are statistically a bad representative sample to base the DC's tranny quality, it doesn't paint a good impression to me.

    I'm sure if I stop a lot of people one the road and ask them if they have any tranny problems with their DCs, I'm pretty sure that a lot of them will say that it has never given them any problems.

    The probability of me knowing 3 DC owners who've had a failure should be really low - but it happened. So either the failure rates are higher than normal, or I've better rush out and get that million dollar winning lottery ticket! :)

    1.6% was, by Honda's admission, unusually high for their standards. Does anyone know what the percentage failure rate is for the DCs? I'm asking out of curiosity.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    Read the allpar site from post 1703. It's going to be hard to detirmine if the failure was because of poor engineering or poor maintenence (wrong fluid being added or replaced) Most owners don't verify if the right fluid was being added. The first site lists all the fixes, TSB's that were issued from 88 thru 92. DC hasn't been sitting on their hands for 10 years as some posters suggest.
  • biyonic2biyonic2 Member Posts: 15
    For the last 3 years I have been window shopping for MV's. In the last 3 months the shopping experience has turned into a sometimes sleepless, argumentative frenzy as my wife and I fanagle selling a '95 Jeep Grand that we have loved/hated for the last 7 years and face the agony of living on bread and water to finance a minivan to replace the Jeep.

    Because my company had a '99 DGC I grew to like driving it. It is the kind of van you can jump into and just go. It is comfy, quiet, and torquey - which appeals to anyone who is faced with the barrage of stopsigns, stoplights, traffic that U.S. drivers are accustomed to. As a note we had to replace the Tranny on that one at 90K. My company just bought a TCEL to replace the dodge. The TC is just plain nice - even with the 3.3 L. It is really nice to drive on the highway, even after many hours on the road.

    Between my wife and I we have owned a '91 Honda civic, and '91 Prelude, and '90 Legend. We have never had a major repair up to 90k miles on those cars. Because of this and because the Jeep gave us a lot of grief I was determined to NOT buy another DCX product. So why did we get a brand new 2003 TC EX and cancel our order on a 2003 Ody?

    After test driving all the mvans the TC felt like it was made for our family - comfy, sporty, quiet, powerful, spacious, nicely appointed, in stock, powertrain warranty, price (1% below invoice). Did I mention in stock? The day I sold my Jeep (a glorious day) I walked in to a Chrysler dealer (pre-chosen via internet inventory search) and owned. Read - I owned the process!

    The Ody, although incredible in its own right, was way to much $$$ considering the competition. The seats were um, Honda-like, the left arm door rest was hard, the accelleration was mushy off the line, the interior is sterile (not unlike my '91 Civic was), the lumbering thing drives as big as it looks. The worst part was the availablilty and slimy sales staff save one location (Performance Honda in Cincinnati). Bottom line - after test driving the Ody we were not that impressed.

    As a side note we almost went with the Mazda MPV which is very nice except for, road/roof rack noise, reluctance to feel solid at over 70mph, and its small size. Otherwise it is a very good buy and I would recommend it to anyone.

    All in all the whole experience was pretty much unpleasent as all the contenders are excellent. I thank Edmunds for being - it clearly helped make the comparison process tolerable. Although I don't agree with the Edmunds Video review of the Dodge Caravan at all - and they should redo it because it bashes the vehicle pretty unfairly.

    At the end of the day the DCX TC EX fit our needs, budget, and deleivery schedule. Thanks again to Edmunds for this great site!
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    Nice detail of your decision.

    Interesting note about the MPV. Mine feels solid up to 110 or so; tha fastest I have gone in it.
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    I heard the MPV has a nice feature where the center windows can be rolled up and down! A feature I would like to have in my Ody.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    I wonder how hard/expensive it is for DC/Honda to install the roll down center windows. This is really a nice feature to have.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    In the interest of balance which I am always posting about, this should put the cost factor at ease for 99-01 Odyssey owners. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-09-20-honda-warranty_x.htm

    Maybe DC's extended warranty put some pressure on Honda to do this? Conjecture on my part, NOT FACT!
  • cavillercaviller Member Posts: 331
    "The moves came after angry owners swamped online forums and appealed to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for a safety recall because of a transmission that could slip out of gear, not go into gear, abruptly downshift or refuse to shift."

    As unfounded as this panic may have been in regard to safety, kudos to all who panicked and got all of us an extended warranty:-)
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    Caviller was correct - this is a one time extension by Honda due to the tranny design flaw.

    Let's just say that by owing up to the design flaw AND extending the warranty to cover this problem has certainly made me a loyal Honda owner!
  • crkeehncrkeehn Member Posts: 513
    parked by the side of the road.

    Tain't seen no T&C/Caravan/Voyagers parked by the side of the road either.

    Still a wash
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
  • bdaddybdaddy Member Posts: 171
    Suck the life, er, fun out of it, sure it can die. On the other hand, I saw a sagebrush pearl Odyssey today. I must admit, as much as I do like Hondas, they really have lack in color department. If Adam thinks granite green is ugly, just wait.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Honda doesn't make very exciting colors on its cars. But I must say the Granite Green color on the Odyssey was much better than the drab but slightly classy Onyx green Chrysler currently offers on its minivans.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    Nothing a $5000 color paint job can't fix. If I ever going to buy an Ody. I am going to have it painted in Sandox's Daytona Paradise or Monte Carlo Magic!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    OK, which one of you have been writing letters to the editor?


    Long-Term Road Test: 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan



    Steve

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  • grand6grand6 Member Posts: 12
    I now use Edmunds to check prices and read on town hall. The original review of the Caravan a few years ago was so blatantly biased (see original review) that Edmunds editorial reviews IMO have ZERO credibility.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    4aodge, that kind of sounds like some of your comments on this site, or someone using your comments. But then again, I was surprised to see Edmunds did address those comments. I just wonder how all of those problems with the DC vans excaped some of the sharp eyes of the Odyssey people.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    them are some mighty fancy tires at $180 each.
  • strokeoluckstrokeoluck Member Posts: 99
    I actually popped in here while trying to get to another Caravan group. But while reading some of these posts I noticed someone mentioning the tranny problems. I'm here to say that we have owned a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager for 62,000 miles (van has 94,000 total miles on it, we got if off a lease) and have not had any transmission problems. We did have it "serviced" at ~80,000 miles but only because the dealership said it was a good idea for the long-run.

    I should qualify my statement. We do have a MINOR leak on the gasket on the bottom of the tranny. But my neighbor - a mechanic by trade - said it's nothing to worry about. We get maybe a few spots a week on the garage floor. Otherwise she runs long and strong all day long. And we take 16-20 hour round-trip drives every 3 months or so. We have the 3.3L 4 speed.

    Yes we've had some other minor issues (well...one head gasket replacement for $900 I wouldn't call minor but everything else was) that sometimes make me wonder if I should have bought foreign. But I simply can't justify spending the dollars to get...what? I recently shopped for a "new" used Chrylser van. ONLY because my wife wanted something newer (I've since convinced her to stick w/our veteran and to apply the payment money towards something worthwhile). But I found I could buy a year old Chrysler T&C with standard options - cloth, am/fm/cass, power everything, etc. - ~15k-20k miles for about $15k - $15,500. Compared to ANY used Honda or Toyota (and I do agree they are fine vehicles) that's a screaming bargain. Even if I have to replace the ENGINE that's still a screaming bargain. If I truly had money to burn I'd strongly consider a foreign van - though I'd probably go with the Sienna. But I don't foresee a day when I'll have money to burn...

    - Rob
  • biyonic2biyonic2 Member Posts: 15
    Hi ho - glad to see Edmunds replying to the bias letter. I still think their video review was biased. Its ok to slam the bad in a vehicle but it seems so biased in the review.

    Why don't they say, the Ody is sparten inside, the dash and interior trim is totally plain and lifeless (compare to the Pilot which is a big improvement), the seats and armrest are hard after more than 1 hour on the road, the road noise is high. I don't know - its hard for me to even knock the Ody.

    All I know is that we really wanted and still want what the DCX products had to offer instead of the Honda. For the price difference we were willing to:

    1. Live with the fact that the DCX MV will likely disappoint us at some point in time.

    2. Live with the fact that people will not readily buy this van from me if I try to sell it vs. true story - my friend sold his near totalled and repaired Accord for more than bluebook.

    3. Live with an older 4 speed transmission design that is not the most technically advanced tranny available on the market these days. Me thinks the DaimlerBenz 6 speed newly developed for Chrysler sedans needs to go into my MV right now!

    As far as the bias goes - they need to stop referencing the Ody as the Benchmark in all MV reviews - at the pricepoint it clearly is not. Plus I think it is turning off buyers because it seems like, if you buy anything else - then you had to be crazy.

    Know what I mean?
  • bdaddybdaddy Member Posts: 171
    "Plus I think it is turning off buyers because it seems like, if you buy anything else - then you had to be crazy." Biyonic

    I heard of a DCX forum named getoverit.com. In all seriousness though, I doubt Odyssey owners feel intellectually superior, or that every other minivan owner is crazy. I almost bought a DC. When it came down to it, it wasn't for me (and the fact that the boss wanted the Ody). Would I have been happy with the DC? - absolutely. Would the DC purchase have saved me thousands? No! I was looking at an EX model. Dealers weren't dealing at the time - it was sticker price or nothing. Is the Ody uncomfortable if you're driving for more than an hour? Again, NO! Comfort was one of the determinants for me. The Ody had much more head room and my noggin wasn't right against the A-pillar as it was in the DC.

    You want to talk about people feeling superior in their purchase of a minivan, read some of the price/value discussion in the Ody vs. Kia forum!
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    it's natural to see all this when you drive that car everyday - but they are easy to put up with, IMHO.

    Road noise - big yes there. I heard that it could be due to the tires, or insufficient noise padding - maybe both. Not so bad on asphalt, worse on concrete.
    Thudding sound on gas tank - what "Thud"? I've subconsciously ignored it at this point.
    Interior - Give me tasteful Spartan over cheezy ill-fitting plastic (again, that is what I think - many others don't share my views there).
    1999/2000 pulling to the right - fixed with re-alignment. Never came back.
    Potentiall Tranny Problem - Yeah, that's a read bummer - I was hoping to avoid this, but at least Honda did the right thing by extending the warranty for it.

    Speaking as an Ody driver only, that minivan is made for long trips. Seating is pretty comfortable (again, relative term). It is spacious, powerful and a real blast to drive. Heck, it was so much fun, my wife was actually having fun driving through the mountain passes!
    The third seat is a godsend - something most owners will not understand until they have little kids - something I'm surprised Daimler Chrysler never thought up of - since they are very good at thinking up of these things.

    So yes, no car is perfect, not even the Odyssey, but my wife and I agree that it was money well spent. The same can be said about DC owners - it's just what people like.

    Lastly, I don't think Ody owners view themselves as "Intellectually Superior" to other minivan drivers - just Intellectually superior to the SUV folks who want to look cool! :)
  • rms41rms41 Member Posts: 80
    You guys have some kind of problem with your TMV on the 2003 Ody LX. You have it as $3,026 over MSRP. No way. Should be at or $500 under MSRP.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I noticed that a little while ago too, and attributed it to the "coastal" markets bleeding over into the "normal" zipcodes. No one seems to be paying close to MSRP in, say, the San Francisco bay area, even for the base model.


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  • crkeehncrkeehn Member Posts: 513
    I suspect that both of these vans would be the class of the minivan world. Chrysler seems to have made great strides in reliability in the past few years. With the exception of the transmission, Honda's problems seem to have been more in the line of teething problems, I'm not sure that the transmission problem is as bad as people seem to be making it and Honda seems to be making a valiant effort to deal with it.

    Don't you love it when you have a win/win situation?

    I might add I have a friend who has both, a Gold Odyssey and a Dodge Grand Caravan in Inferno Red. Both vans are gorgeous.
  • music287music287 Member Posts: 116
    This is our fourth Chrysler minivan. We find this one to be the quietest, smoothest, most convenient one of all. Once you get used to the power liftgate and figure out how to use the fantastic stereo system, no other brand of minivan will do.

    I think the key to owner satisfaction is a good dealer. We buy from a small dealer in Mayfield, Ohio. It's our 3rd vehicle from them and, since the price is more or less generic from dealer to dealer, it's the service that brings us back.

    BTW, I miss the fresh air vent that my original 88 Plymouth Grand Voyager had below the steering wheel. Does anyone else remember that feature?

    Jay
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I do! My base '89 Voyager had that, and we often wished there was one for the passenger. The original "left side/right side" climate control.

    Steve, Host
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    LOL you are too funny...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    heh, that one took me a while (like an hour, LOL).

    In my defense, the floor vent was nice when you were running the defroster full blast but needed to moderate the rest of the cabin temp. Right?

    Steve, Host
  • bdaddybdaddy Member Posts: 171
    Best use of floor vent was to circulate fresh air when cabin was full of smoke and temps. were too cold to roll down windows. (you Allieskans can appreciate that, no?;-)
  • mliongmliong Member Posts: 231
    Re post #1741 LOL!
  • lucyvp49lucyvp49 Member Posts: 14
    We had our heart set on an Ody. But have become frustrated by the attitude and inflexibility of the sales staff, who continue to imply that they are doing us some kind of grand favor by not charging $2000 -$3000 over MSRP. On guy laughed, and the other lied. So, last night we threw in the towel and started shopping again. We checked out the Sienna and decided it was not for us. Good, that was easy, We then looked at the T&C again, and really liked it, and we really liked the salesman, but I realize we are not going to live with him.

    Here are our issues:

    The T&L eX was offered at 28,900 has leather, DVD, alloy whells, dual power sliding doors, and power lift gate. The Lxi is about $1300 more, and has heated seats, and auto climate control. This was first price, we have not yet gone to another dealer. We have this price in writing. We figure that we can get the eX for about $28,000 and the Lxi for about 29,000. It seems like much more car for the money. It is more comfortable, looks more stylish, and has a better warranty (I've read all the debates for and against this, but the fact is, it is covered longer) It also promised to be a more pleasant buying experience.

    The Ody has better crash testing, the T&C did not fail, but the Ody won. We like the magic seat, but could live without it. We are definitely going to get leather, if we get the Ody, because my husband went on a road trip in a friends EX yesterday and found it uncomfortable. So we figure that the cost of the Ody EX-L (no DVD) will come in at around 28,000 ( with the slight discounts we have been able to scrounge up) this is not far off the final price for the T&C eX, which seems to be more bang for the buck.

    We do not want to make the wrong decision because we are frustrated with Honda. We also don't want to be made to beg a honda dealer to sell us a car. We are looking for input from others who have shopped for both, and those who have made this decision.
  • saverisaveri Member Posts: 19
    I am in the market for a minivan and have decided on selecting either the Honda Odyssey or Town & Country. I prefer the drive and overall presentation (interior and exterior) of the Town & Country but am hesitating because of it's reputation for lack of reliability. Would appreciate any information/personal experiences on what the reliability of the Town & Country is post the MY2001 redesign. I plan on buying rather than leasing so the reliability factor is very important.
  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    After shopping the Ody and the DC for some time, I decided on a large sedan. Both vans have reliability issues and due to concern about third seat safety they are effectively 4 passenger vehicles IMO. Impala LS seats 5 with three point belts and handling is superior to either minivan. The clincher for me was that DC still will not admit that Gen 3 seatbelt buckles are an unnecessary hazard. With GM rebates the price of the sedan is so much lower than the minivan... and without the stigma of driving one of those boxes..............not to mention the pompous Honda salespeople...........
  • saverisaveri Member Posts: 19
    Do 2003MY T&C still have Gen 3 seatbelts? I see no sense in spending $30K on a minivan with a potential saftey issue if this is still the case.
  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    I visited a Chrysler dealer twice in the past couple of months and checked several 03 minivans. All had Gen 3 seat belt buckles. Interestingly, the Sebring convertible and some other DC vehicles had Gen 4 buckles. Figure that out.
  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    Yes, the Center for Auto Safety claims that 14 million vehicles should be recalled:


    http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=310&scid=91

  • lucyvp49lucyvp49 Member Posts: 14
This discussion has been closed.