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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
Caviller - it's really funny how thought about shifting to Neutral if that were to happen to you - considering that's the action I thought of when the LA times article first came out.
Did chrysler get around to solving their tranny problems? What was the culprit? As you can tell, I have a year's worth of news to try and catch up on.
The 50% number probably referred to the worst series of the original A604 version of this engine, though it was presumably much improved by the mid and late 90s. True? I have no idea, and really don't care since we no longer own the Cirrus. Here are some details on the problems, from various viewpoints:
http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/CHRYSLER-ultradrive.htm
http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html
http://www.lemonaidcars.com/chrysler.htm
The point is you can find documented reliability issue on most vehicles. That doesn't mean they are all safety issues, nor does it mean that buyers of the current models necessarily even have the same liklihood of problems.
They were certainly patient people.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Knowing 3...
have we met before?
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Although three people are statistically a bad representative sample to base the DC's tranny quality, it doesn't paint a good impression to me.
I'm sure if I stop a lot of people one the road and ask them if they have any tranny problems with their DCs, I'm pretty sure that a lot of them will say that it has never given them any problems.
The probability of me knowing 3 DC owners who've had a failure should be really low - but it happened. So either the failure rates are higher than normal, or I've better rush out and get that million dollar winning lottery ticket!
1.6% was, by Honda's admission, unusually high for their standards. Does anyone know what the percentage failure rate is for the DCs? I'm asking out of curiosity.
Because my company had a '99 DGC I grew to like driving it. It is the kind of van you can jump into and just go. It is comfy, quiet, and torquey - which appeals to anyone who is faced with the barrage of stopsigns, stoplights, traffic that U.S. drivers are accustomed to. As a note we had to replace the Tranny on that one at 90K. My company just bought a TCEL to replace the dodge. The TC is just plain nice - even with the 3.3 L. It is really nice to drive on the highway, even after many hours on the road.
Between my wife and I we have owned a '91 Honda civic, and '91 Prelude, and '90 Legend. We have never had a major repair up to 90k miles on those cars. Because of this and because the Jeep gave us a lot of grief I was determined to NOT buy another DCX product. So why did we get a brand new 2003 TC EX and cancel our order on a 2003 Ody?
After test driving all the mvans the TC felt like it was made for our family - comfy, sporty, quiet, powerful, spacious, nicely appointed, in stock, powertrain warranty, price (1% below invoice). Did I mention in stock? The day I sold my Jeep (a glorious day) I walked in to a Chrysler dealer (pre-chosen via internet inventory search) and owned. Read - I owned the process!
The Ody, although incredible in its own right, was way to much $$$ considering the competition. The seats were um, Honda-like, the left arm door rest was hard, the accelleration was mushy off the line, the interior is sterile (not unlike my '91 Civic was), the lumbering thing drives as big as it looks. The worst part was the availablilty and slimy sales staff save one location (Performance Honda in Cincinnati). Bottom line - after test driving the Ody we were not that impressed.
As a side note we almost went with the Mazda MPV which is very nice except for, road/roof rack noise, reluctance to feel solid at over 70mph, and its small size. Otherwise it is a very good buy and I would recommend it to anyone.
All in all the whole experience was pretty much unpleasent as all the contenders are excellent. I thank Edmunds for being - it clearly helped make the comparison process tolerable. Although I don't agree with the Edmunds Video review of the Dodge Caravan at all - and they should redo it because it bashes the vehicle pretty unfairly.
At the end of the day the DCX TC EX fit our needs, budget, and deleivery schedule. Thanks again to Edmunds for this great site!
Interesting note about the MPV. Mine feels solid up to 110 or so; tha fastest I have gone in it.
Maybe DC's extended warranty put some pressure on Honda to do this? Conjecture on my part, NOT FACT!
As unfounded as this panic may have been in regard to safety, kudos to all who panicked and got all of us an extended warranty:-)
Let's just say that by owing up to the design flaw AND extending the warranty to cover this problem has certainly made me a loyal Honda owner!
Tain't seen no T&C/Caravan/Voyagers parked by the side of the road either.
Still a wash
Long-Term Road Test: 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I should qualify my statement. We do have a MINOR leak on the gasket on the bottom of the tranny. But my neighbor - a mechanic by trade - said it's nothing to worry about. We get maybe a few spots a week on the garage floor. Otherwise she runs long and strong all day long. And we take 16-20 hour round-trip drives every 3 months or so. We have the 3.3L 4 speed.
Yes we've had some other minor issues (well...one head gasket replacement for $900 I wouldn't call minor but everything else was) that sometimes make me wonder if I should have bought foreign. But I simply can't justify spending the dollars to get...what? I recently shopped for a "new" used Chrylser van. ONLY because my wife wanted something newer (I've since convinced her to stick w/our veteran and to apply the payment money towards something worthwhile). But I found I could buy a year old Chrysler T&C with standard options - cloth, am/fm/cass, power everything, etc. - ~15k-20k miles for about $15k - $15,500. Compared to ANY used Honda or Toyota (and I do agree they are fine vehicles) that's a screaming bargain. Even if I have to replace the ENGINE that's still a screaming bargain. If I truly had money to burn I'd strongly consider a foreign van - though I'd probably go with the Sienna. But I don't foresee a day when I'll have money to burn...
- Rob
Why don't they say, the Ody is sparten inside, the dash and interior trim is totally plain and lifeless (compare to the Pilot which is a big improvement), the seats and armrest are hard after more than 1 hour on the road, the road noise is high. I don't know - its hard for me to even knock the Ody.
All I know is that we really wanted and still want what the DCX products had to offer instead of the Honda. For the price difference we were willing to:
1. Live with the fact that the DCX MV will likely disappoint us at some point in time.
2. Live with the fact that people will not readily buy this van from me if I try to sell it vs. true story - my friend sold his near totalled and repaired Accord for more than bluebook.
3. Live with an older 4 speed transmission design that is not the most technically advanced tranny available on the market these days. Me thinks the DaimlerBenz 6 speed newly developed for Chrysler sedans needs to go into my MV right now!
As far as the bias goes - they need to stop referencing the Ody as the Benchmark in all MV reviews - at the pricepoint it clearly is not. Plus I think it is turning off buyers because it seems like, if you buy anything else - then you had to be crazy.
Know what I mean?
I heard of a DCX forum named getoverit.com. In all seriousness though, I doubt Odyssey owners feel intellectually superior, or that every other minivan owner is crazy. I almost bought a DC. When it came down to it, it wasn't for me (and the fact that the boss wanted the Ody). Would I have been happy with the DC? - absolutely. Would the DC purchase have saved me thousands? No! I was looking at an EX model. Dealers weren't dealing at the time - it was sticker price or nothing. Is the Ody uncomfortable if you're driving for more than an hour? Again, NO! Comfort was one of the determinants for me. The Ody had much more head room and my noggin wasn't right against the A-pillar as it was in the DC.
You want to talk about people feeling superior in their purchase of a minivan, read some of the price/value discussion in the Ody vs. Kia forum!
Road noise - big yes there. I heard that it could be due to the tires, or insufficient noise padding - maybe both. Not so bad on asphalt, worse on concrete.
Thudding sound on gas tank - what "Thud"? I've subconsciously ignored it at this point.
Interior - Give me tasteful Spartan over cheezy ill-fitting plastic (again, that is what I think - many others don't share my views there).
1999/2000 pulling to the right - fixed with re-alignment. Never came back.
Potentiall Tranny Problem - Yeah, that's a read bummer - I was hoping to avoid this, but at least Honda did the right thing by extending the warranty for it.
Speaking as an Ody driver only, that minivan is made for long trips. Seating is pretty comfortable (again, relative term). It is spacious, powerful and a real blast to drive. Heck, it was so much fun, my wife was actually having fun driving through the mountain passes!
The third seat is a godsend - something most owners will not understand until they have little kids - something I'm surprised Daimler Chrysler never thought up of - since they are very good at thinking up of these things.
So yes, no car is perfect, not even the Odyssey, but my wife and I agree that it was money well spent. The same can be said about DC owners - it's just what people like.
Lastly, I don't think Ody owners view themselves as "Intellectually Superior" to other minivan drivers - just Intellectually superior to the SUV folks who want to look cool!
If you have time, please fill out a Feedback Form (I'll kick a note to the data people too). Thanks!
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Don't you love it when you have a win/win situation?
I might add I have a friend who has both, a Gold Odyssey and a Dodge Grand Caravan in Inferno Red. Both vans are gorgeous.
I think the key to owner satisfaction is a good dealer. We buy from a small dealer in Mayfield, Ohio. It's our 3rd vehicle from them and, since the price is more or less generic from dealer to dealer, it's the service that brings us back.
BTW, I miss the fresh air vent that my original 88 Plymouth Grand Voyager had below the steering wheel. Does anyone else remember that feature?
Jay
Steve, Host
In my defense, the floor vent was nice when you were running the defroster full blast but needed to moderate the rest of the cabin temp. Right?
Steve, Host
Here are our issues:
The T&L eX was offered at 28,900 has leather, DVD, alloy whells, dual power sliding doors, and power lift gate. The Lxi is about $1300 more, and has heated seats, and auto climate control. This was first price, we have not yet gone to another dealer. We have this price in writing. We figure that we can get the eX for about $28,000 and the Lxi for about 29,000. It seems like much more car for the money. It is more comfortable, looks more stylish, and has a better warranty (I've read all the debates for and against this, but the fact is, it is covered longer) It also promised to be a more pleasant buying experience.
The Ody has better crash testing, the T&C did not fail, but the Ody won. We like the magic seat, but could live without it. We are definitely going to get leather, if we get the Ody, because my husband went on a road trip in a friends EX yesterday and found it uncomfortable. So we figure that the cost of the Ody EX-L (no DVD) will come in at around 28,000 ( with the slight discounts we have been able to scrounge up) this is not far off the final price for the T&C eX, which seems to be more bang for the buck.
We do not want to make the wrong decision because we are frustrated with Honda. We also don't want to be made to beg a honda dealer to sell us a car. We are looking for input from others who have shopped for both, and those who have made this decision.
http://www.edmunds.com/news/regularnews/articles/67308/article.html
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=310&scid=91