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Comments
With regard to my purchase, I'm allowed to crow and feel like I did the right thing for me. Its the American way. We all love to feel like we got a deal and I've so earned the right to brag about mine. It was very hard-earned and a long time coming. And really, I find your indignation and outrage about my dumping my vehicle on someone else hysterical since we've all "dumped" a vehicle somewhere that we're disenchanted with; whether it be at a dealer or to another individual. If we hadn't we'd all be driving cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on them and then sending them to the junk yard. In this case, there was no harm done to anyone across the board. We all ended up happy with our respective trades.
Simply put, the topic of this discussion was was Honda or Chrysler -- which do you like? It's not a debate between Accord and T&C and I refuse to make it one, failure to engage!! In my world Chrysler wins; glad to have it! Again, 'nuff said!!
So, get out and drive and enjoy your own rides, whatever they may be. Remember, life's too short for a bad ride!!
Peace
Stoopid(NoMore)!
Get out and drive!
Peace
I hope so.
Peace
STOOPID1(but not indefinitely so!)
No car is perfect for all people and you, indeed, should drive what you like.
As they say, "if you cannot beat 'em, join 'em".
It will only be a matter of time until the message gets through.
#1. The 2002 T&C LX is exceeding my expectations, has a 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty and 7 year 75,000 mile warranty on virtually everything else. ( Now has 48 months and 72,000 miles remaining on the powertrain and 48 months and 47,000 miles on the other items).
#2. The 2005 Odyssey still has some "bugs" for Honda to resolve. I will feel more comfortable when my nephew tells me his "whistling noise" has been eliminated.
Isellhondas: When are you going to pay commissions to me? LOL
December 2004 Sales Numbers:
Caravan/Grand Caravan - 24,944
Chrysler T&C - 16,377
Honda Odyssey - 15,687
Toyota Sienna - 12,423
Interestingly, Dodge, Chrysler, and Honda sales were up for December over November while most other minivan sales were down.
The Mazda MPV was DOWN significantly from a low 2336 in November to a dismal 1671 in December.
Why have Toyota Sienna sales dropped in December from November?
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp
Same scenario when Ford claims to have the largest volume sales for the Taurus over the Camry and Accord. It is common knowledge that the Camry and Accord are superior to the Taurus and they have now both overtaken Taurus in sales in the past 2 yrs.
Ford is now focussing the Taurus for the car rentals where it belongs.
The question WAS:
Why did T&C surpass the Sienna & Ody in Dec, which had been beating it in sales all year? Particularly the Sienna, which it sold 30% nmore than last month??
Stow and Go Seating-a big selling point favoring DaimlerChrysler over the competition.
Both long and short wheel base versions available and models ranging from an inexpensive basic Caravan to an all the bells and whistles in a top of the line T&C
Wide availability on the dealer's lots
Better mix of available option choices without paying top dollar (you can get Stow and Go on fairly basic models, as well as power doors and rear gate without stepping up to top of the line models).
Excellent incentives, discounts and rebates.
Standard extended power train warranties.
Improving quality to the point where quality and reliability issues are becoming nonissues.
Sienna and Ody do not wish to play that game to that extent because they know that they can command better prices for their superior products.
I don't think you answered my question about how you factor in the difference in gas cost alone driving a T&C vs. an Accord, which would be a pretty penny over ayear, I imagine.
No one flamed you. I just asked for clarification and questioned the "dumping" and crowing.
First, T&Cs are cheaper. I negotiated a price for a 2005 T&C Limited that was $1400 LESS than the best I could get for a Honda Ody EX-L one step down in models ($1K over invoice, still a very good deal). If more people can afford it, more people will buy it. Second, they make more to feed the lease and fleet vehicle need. Finally, many people in the US "buy American" just because it is American. If you live in a coastal city you might doubt this, but it is true. I lived in D.C, San Fran., Indiana and Colorado. In Indiana there were so many American cars on the road compared to imports that everyone looked like an unmarked state cop! I was astounded at how many people "bought GM" or "bought Ford" because, well, they always did and were Americans. On the coasts there were far more imports and far more concern over quality and long-term ownership.
DaimlerChrysler has two plants dedicated exclusively to minivan production and can simply build more than twice as many as either Toyota or Honda.
Sure DC would like to sell them all at MSRP, however to keep the factories humming requires incentives. So what? That is good for the consumer, even those consumers who buy Siennas and Odysseys, as this creates pricing pressure upon them as well, with everyone fighting for market share.
Dedicate two each of Honda or Toyota plants to flat out production of minivans only and you would see them with incentives out the wazoo as well, "superior" product or not.
Honda and Toyota do not "play that game" only because they have been production capacity limited on minivans.
Note, I understand that in Calendar year 2004 Honda was discounting their 2004 models pretty heavily as the 2005 model year came into stock as well. Maybe not with factory to customer rebates but with dealer incentives, which are less easily sniffed out by the customer, but are a form of rebate nonetheless as long as the dealer is willing to pass his savings on to the customer.
That kind of "game" on Honda's part is the same, only sneakier, as the rebate goes only to the dealer who can elect to keep it as profit or discount the vehicle, whichever suits him best.
There is a lot less emphasis on having a "status" car as well, so you will see a lot less Beemers, Mercedes, Lexi, etc. away from the coasts.
Honda does run nearly 2 1/2 times the profit margin as DaimlerChrysler.
Rental car companies buy Chrysler minivans en masse. It's possible some huge year end orders were placed?
When you have overcapacity and excess inventory of products that afe of less demand, you have to sell at a lower margin or loss to reduce the inventory. The other option is to incur interest cost to carry inventory which ages and becomes less valuable. The better choice of huge discounts to reduce inventory is obvious!
Just.... Business 101
When I bought my Ody, there were Windstars with $10K rebates and Chryslers with a bit smaller rebates. I am very glad that I got my Ody Ex at Invoice which cost more than the competition. I have not experienced any warranty problems and its "sporty handling" performance has been a pure driving enjoyment. I have driven 30+ minivan rentals (some T & C, most DGC) on business trips in the past 18 months - their driving/handling performance are not "sporty" to make driving enjoyable. I was always happy to get back to my Ody.
As far as being patriotic American is concerned, that is no longer an issue as the Ody and others(Sienna, Quest) are made right here in good ole USA with American labor and 75+% sourced american made parts.
I also find by stowing one of the middle seats when not needed, it is so fast to get the grand kids in and out of the van and seated. Especially helpful when it is raining.
I have read a few messages that said they didn't like the stow and go seats. That's the main reason I bought my mini van. I love the idea of folding them flat into the floor when I need to carry stuff and not taking them out. I love the storage space it gives you when seats are in place. I hate having things setting in the floor or seats. It just keeps the van so neat. I even bought a little three way power B/W/ television, I think will fit in the storage bins. For a little entertainment on some long trips I'm going to take this year. Love this van.
A great example is the Crown Vic and/or Grand Marquis and Buick(?) where the average buyer age is 60+.
Steve, Host
But your right, before we got the Honda Civic, we had a Ford LTD and that was quite a nice boaty ride.
I am sort of disapointed in some of the stuff I heard was on earlier Dodge vans that Chrysler took off the new ones. Also disapointed Honda didn't put an automatic trunk release on their cars with remote entry, or a cup holder for the back seat riders.
We ended up with a lease on the Grand Caravan SXT and couldn't be happier. It came down to option availability and cost.
As for status, a Honda and Tpyota don't qualify for status. Lexus, yes, BMW, yes, etc. The coasters buy more imports (especially Japanese cars), and I don't know exactly why other than they tend to be more open minded than the "Buy American" Midwest. But there is little prestige applied to a regular old Honda or Toyota.
I agree and understand both of you.
However there are some folks who tend to be narrow-focussed and do not see the big picture in the evolution. Where the foreign manufacturers have moved their production stateside and provided employment for USA residents.
He still won't look at anything but Ford either. He's not too enthused with the idea of my buying a Volvo - even though it's owned by Ford.
It was already running....
Steve, Host
I'm an example of that. I have a 2004 Honda Civic that I take back to the Honda dealer to even get oil changes. My other American vehicles I have had, such as my 1993 Eagle Vision and 2001 Dodge Dakota P/U, I would take to the nearest and cheapest lube or corner mechanic to have work done on them. I figure they know all about American cars and trucks.
That has come home to bit me twice. Years ago, I took my Eagle Vision into a mostly tire store, that also did light mantainence, to have the transmission fluid changed. Well, I find out they used the wrong type of fluid in my transmission. It started shifting differently and I thought it was going out. I had it checked by a tranny shop and they could see nothing wrong with it. They asked what kind of fluid I had in it, as they could see it was very clean. I had them check with the tire store and found out it was the wrong type. I it filled with the right fluid and had them pay the tranny place for the new fluid and inspection. The tranny ran great after that.
I also made a mistake of having the fluid for rear end of my Dodge Dakota changed at a oil change place. They didn't have the proper tools to do it and it wound up leaking after they did it.
Now I am pretty fussy where I get my service done. I still do not always go to the dealer, but I have someone I can trust do the minor stuff. The Honda, will go back to the dealers for all service.
Now I have a 2005 Dodge mini van. I will trust them to change the tranny fluid and any major things. Oil changes? I still don't think so.
Otherwise, there is NO recommended change of transmission fluid (and my T&C has the DaimlerChrysler 7 year 100,000 powertrain warranty). DC must be quite confident in the long life of the DC minivan transmissions.
The oil change recommended is at 7,500 miles or 6 months under normal usage and 3,000 miles for severe service. The previous owner had oil and filter changed at 3,000 miles at the Chrysler dealer and I will do the same. I would do the same with a Honda Odyssey.
Brake pads checked at 22,500 miles normal service, or 9,000 if mostly stop and go driving. (Son's 99 GC SE had no brake pad replacement until 73,000 miles).
Air cleaner filter replaced at 30,000 mile normal service or 15,000 miles if driven when there is a lot of dust in the air.
Serpentine belt to be inspected and replaced if necessary at 60,000 miles.
Engine coolant and spark plugs are to be changed at 100,000 miles or 60 months.
I live in Arizona and 90 F would be a cool day here in the summer.
One reason for that 7/100,000 powertrain warranty is because of lots of trouble with their transmissions. I change it every 30,000 miles. Heat has always been a killer to transmissions.
I'll wait till this summer to send that warm air if that's all right. Right now it's cold, 67 degrees out.
I, personally, am intolerant of a vehicle with a recalled transmission that is subseuqently "updated" which still does not perform to my standards (i.e, erratically at best); of a vehicle that chews through two sets of brakes and turned rotors in 16,000 miles; and whose CD/radio unit blows out and must be replaced. I don't in any way feel this was a "superior" Honda product and was unwilling to continue to pay for, depend upon and drive the vehicle, despite its 100,000 powertrain warranty. I no longer wanted to own the vehicle.
The purchaser of said vehicle obviously didn't have a problem with any of these issues or complaints otherwise he wouldn't have bought and paid for it.
Choice of words - from my perspective I dumped a vehicle I hated. From his perspective he received an excellent deal and made an informed and educated purchase. So - fair deal. No change of heart from me - to me I STILL dumped it.
Again, this is not a sedan v. van discussion so I won't justify to you the gas mileage issue as apparently to me its not one since I've chosen the van. Repeating, this is a van discussion.
Perhaps you should get the facts before flaming (translated: coming across self-righteously indignant regarding a trade that had nothing to do with you to me is flaming); could save you some time and embarrassment or not.
Move on and get out and drive!
Peace
Stoopid(like you really believe that!)
I also made a mistake of having the fluid for rear end of my Dodge Dakota changed at a oil change place. They didn't have the proper tools to do it and it wound up leaking after they did it.
Now I am pretty fussy where I get my service done. I still do not always go to the dealer, but I have someone I can trust do the minor stuff. The Honda, will go back to the dealers for all service.
Now I have a 2005 Dodge mini van. I will trust them to change the tranny fluid and any major things. Oil changes? I still don't think so. <<
I used to get my oil changed at the big national chains. Then I heard of all the horror stories of untightened filters, or drain plugs, or wrong oil used, etc. For the most part, he people that work there are only trained to work there. Not certified mechanics. I now get my oil changed at the dealership (I have a T&C). At my Chrysler dealer, they know intimately the cars they are working with, and are fully certified to work with them - and it costs the same or less than the national chains! It also eliminates any maintenance questions if you have a subsequent warranty issue with your car. I paid $23 each the 2 times I have had to get it changed. The only possible negative is that you can't just show up and get an oil change, but I just need to call a few days ahead of time, so that's not an issue to me. Just wanted to add my .02.
Ok, whatever makes you happy. I can see your earlier post and you seem to have gone from one extreme to another, but maybe you had a bad day.
The gas price question was relevant, because you bragged about how much money you made off the sale of your Accord and the low price you paid for the T&C, and I asked basically how much more the T&C would cost you per year in gas, since the mileage is worse. That would be a factor in your financial gain. But you don't think so, so enjoy and be happy in your world.