Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

ivan_99 · April 2005

Yeahif it were the 4cylI wouldnt do it.

A 7 year warranty does help. Although I supposed its only the drive train and not bumper to bumper (you may get nickel and dimed to death).

A 2 year old GC with 5 years remaining on warranty does give a compelling alternative to a new Odyssey (or Sienna & Quest). My confidence is shaken with the Odyssey (50% of the people I know have had transmission replacementsthat would be 2 out of 4 people; not statistically accurate).

Ive recently come around to a few American cars (if there is such a thing anymoreother than name plate). They happen to be ones with Euro influences such as Focus or G6 and Caddy (when I was young thats what my father always wanted, a big Cadillacyukheh). I suppose you could argue that these American autos with European influences are really just American cars sold in Europe (successfully); guess give credit where credit is due.

My wife and I have decided that our purchases will only be with cash; the idea of borrowing money for such a huge depreciating Asset does not sit well. Once you have a big pile of cash on your lap, its difficult to lay $30,000 down for a mini-van (regardless of how well it may hold its value).

The new Sedona looks very interesting to usbut I guess that is for another message board.

badgerfan · April 2005

Sometimes it makes sense to finance even if you have the cash. For instance, I believe part of Chysler's current minivan rebates is only if you finance. Just finance for the minimum amount required to get the rebate, then pay off the balance of financed amount as soon as they let you to still keep the rebate. You pay very little interest but cash in on the rebate.

Last car I purchased was a new 2000 Taurus and I financed every penny, because at the time the car had a $1000 rebate plus 0.9% financing for 36 months. I could earn more at the time keeping the money for as long as possible in my own account in a money market account, so I walked out of the dealership with $0 down. I could have paid cash, but it actually made sense not to as I could earn more interest than the financed interest rate.

sbrosco · April 2005

All I did was walk into my local dealership and told them I had a check for $22,600 (not including taxes) and that I was paying cash. I told them $22,600 was what I would pay or I would find another dealership who would do it. They said no at first but I stood firm and walked away. They called me the next day at work and said they would do it. There was also a 2,500 rebate and then another 1,000 if I financed at least $10K. So I financed $10k for the 1,000 rebate, but I will pay the full balance on my first payment. I did call another dealership to see if they could beat that price, but they wouldn't and were surprised that the other dealership agreed to sell it to me at 22,600 (but they would sell at invoice less the rebates) - however, I know they still made money. The dealers want to sell them and it is pretty standard (at least where I live) for them to sell them at invoice minus the rebates. Anyone should be able to easily get a 2005 Touring TC for around $23K. It was a very easy negotiation.

The Odyssey is a great van, but paying MSRP or over just makes me sick. I did it once, but it is not worth it for me now. I don't keep my cars more than 5-7 years, so hopefully the TC will give me what I need during that time. Who knows, I may change my mind over the next few years. But, I couldn't pass up a good deal on a brand new van.

Suzanne

badgerfan · April 2005

Your negotiating style is just the way I do it. Get yourself all the facts and figures from places like Edmunds. Figure out just how low the dealer will go, usually a bit less than invoice unless you are after one of those high demand limited supply vehicles (such as new generation Ody). Subtract the rebates, and make an offer.

It never hurts to walk out the door. Dealers and minivans will still be there the next day, the next week, the next month and so on, so it rarely hurts to walk away and let the dealer rethink for a few days and he might come back and accept an offer he wouldn't a few days earlier.

The only other thing I might suggest to the bargain hunters is wait till near or after the model year ends. Sometimes the incentives and hidden cash back to dealers gets even better, though the choices of what is on the lot become slimmer.

Enjoy your new minivan, and likely the transmission will last better than your Honda. If not, you are covered for 7 years 70K miles.

ivan_99 · April 2005

That makes senseI never even thought of doing it that way. I always assumed that rebates were rebates and were not tied to the method of purchase.

I was actually looking at used vehicles. I found numerous 2005 T&C LXs with 15-20K miles for $15-18K. Im not sure about what options are available or even their reliability, I was just doing preliminary research; we probably wont buy a mini-van for a couple years.

minivanguy · April 2005

I agree!! I had my Touring for 3 months and haven't had to use my warranty yet.

hansienna · April 2005

Did you compare the 2005 GC SXT with the 2005 T&C Touring?
If I recall correctly, the T&C Touring has an MSRP of $ 700 to $ 1000 more than the GC SXT which appears to be an identical clone in features.

marine2 · April 2005

Ive recently come around to a few American cars (if there is such a thing anymoreother than name plate). They happen to be ones with Euro influences such as Focus or G6 and Caddy (when I was young thats what my father always wanted, a big Cadillacyukheh). I suppose you could argue that these American autos with European influences are really just American cars sold in Europe (successfully); guess give credit where credit is due.

Your right, the Ford Focus is a great little car. It was designed and built here and sold as a world car.They had some problems with some of the earlier models but got them ironed out now. I owned a 2000 Focus and only got rid of it for a truck.(Wanted more room to carry stuff) But it was a lot of fun to drive and I had no problems with it.

As I stated once before, it does make a difference where the profit from these cars stays. It either goes to make American cars better and make jobs for other Americans, or it goes to make foreign cars better and make jobs for people in another countries. I would like to see us trying to keep as much money as we can here, to build America.

That is not to say I wouldn't buy a foreign own vehicle, I have. But I would never count out owning an American one and would buy one in a minute if it offered the things I like in a vehicle. Especially now, we make some pretty darn good vehicles .The Focus is one of them.

denver5357 · April 2005

Isell, just wondering ... do dealers prefer that trade-ins be the same brand as the dealership? Are they easier to handle and therefore command a better trade-in price?

And if someone brings a trade-in to a dealer and wants to buy that dealer's brand, does the customer get any price benefit for buying a car instead of just selling a trade-in?

Thanks.

sbrosco · April 2005

Yes, I compared to the DC SXT. Dodge could not match the price I got on the TC Touring......They told me the lowest they would go was around $24K (even after I told them what I could get the TC for), and Chrysler gave me the 6 disk CD player too.

Suzanne

isellhondas · April 2005

Well, to answer your question, dealers want trade-ins that are in demand and easy to sell. Most shoppers assume correctly that the dealer who sells the brand new will probably have the best selection of used.

Since we are talking about Chrysler minivans here, as used cars, they are tough to sell UNLESS they are especially nice and have low miles. A high miler is almost impossible for us to sell. As used cars, assuming they are extra nice, the can be a great buy since they depreciate so badly.

Were I in the market for a Chrysler minivan, I would look for a two year old one in great condition.

Kirstie_H · April 2005

I can tell you from personal experience that at DCX dealerships, the answer is usually yes. I brought in my VW Jetta to trade in on a T&C minivan, and the dealer basically told me I'd be better off selling it myself or selling it to a VW dealership, as they wouldn't be able to put a VW on their lot. They were going to send it elsewhere ASAP (other dealership or auction, I guess).

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

masterpaul1 · April 2005

Me and my Wife back in September 2003 were in the market for a minivan. Safety, reliability, cost and features were all considered. After doing careful research here on Edmunds and using other resources, we ended up buying a new/used two year old 2001 DGC EX for $15,995.00 with only 37K. (This was well below the budget we set). We were able to get the rear cargo organizer, an alarm, Maximumcare bumper to bumper warranty, (the original warranty expired from miles) and paint protection with all taxes and title included for over $19,000. At the time of purchase according to KBB, our van was worth over $18,000 to which the original price new was around $26,000 -27,000. So we were blessed to find our vechicle of choice with color, features, reliability, warranty and cost. We paid cash, so no car note. Man what a good feeling to own a new/used car with no car note. Out of five cars I've owned, I only had one car note which was my Wife's car that she had before we got married. We now have over 58K and the only problem that we've had, was right after purchase when both front window regulator motors needed to be replaced. Outside of that, everything works just as it's suppose to. Although now we are going to have to replace both lifters on the liftgate, since they are getting weak from time and use. It will only cost us under $50 and time of course. :shades:

badgerfan · April 2005

Sales data for first calendar quarter Year to date and for March05 vs March 04 for the top minivan sellers from aicautosite.com

Make March05 March04 YTD05 YTD04
Dodge Caravan 24,753 18,936 57,665 56,952
Chrysler Town & Country 16,262 10,381 43,849 26,015
Honda Odyssey 16,201 12,172 38,829 31,542
Toyota Sienna 13,287 15,724 34,443 42,145

Conclusion: Odyssey appears to be stealing some sales from Sienna, however both of DC's brands are more than holding their own. In fact of they are gaining market share at a faster unit rate than Honda. Sales up for DC minivans in first quarter by 18547 units. Odyssey up by 7287 units. Sienna down by 7702.

isellhondas · April 2005

Their lots are packed with inventory. Odysseys are in very short supply and Sienna inventories may be slim as well.

When lots are full of unsold product, the screaming interest rates and incentives come out and some people only buy because of this.

Also, in some parts of our country buying an "import" isn't looked upon very well.

mrblonde49 · April 2005

...and another part is that some people actually like them best.

badgerfan · April 2005

Isell, yes and DC minivans were in oversupply first quarter last year also. So what? You still cannot refute a large sales jump from first quarter 2004 compared to first quarter 2005. Big incentives have been around for quite a while now, soon after 9-11, if I recall.

Maybe DC has some features people like? Utility/flexibility is number one in many minivan buyers minds, and I believe stow and go hit the nail on the head as one of the most useful new features.

What explains Sienna's reduced sales? Their plant should be up to full capacity by now, this being second full model year. Maybe inventory is building for them as well?

kfdmed · April 2005

Short supply? Not in northern Indiana. The are always a dozen or so Hondas at the local dealer and the two Toyota dealers have at least 25+ each. I dont think the short supply theory flies. I would say DC vans are good sellers because the offer the best bang for the buck.

isellhondas · April 2005

Some people do like them better for a number of reasons.

That's why restaurants have menus!

badgerfan · April 2005

Just checked the internet inventory listing for four Honda dealers in my area. One had 8 new Odys, another 11, another 13, and the fourth 23. And they weren't all loaded up units either, seemed to be a wide mix of model levels.

Maybe those are not huge inventories, but are ample nonetheless. I doubt if anyone has to stand in line awaiting the next one off the truck to buy what they want.

jipster · April 2005

DC vans sales are up first quarter solely on basis of the stow-n-go system.Plus, they've done a good job advertising and marketing this new concept.

ivan_99 · April 2005

I wouldn't go so far as to call "stow-n-go" a new concept.

Perhaps new markating verbiage...remember "cab forward".

It is "kinda" neat anyway...They do seem to be very good at advertising and running with a "concept",theme...whatever.

isellhondas · April 2005

Honda had this first with the third seat on the 1995 Odyssey. honda considered doing this with the second row seats in the new Odyssey.

Instead, they opted for comfortable seats instead figuring the seats would get a whole more usage than the "stow n go" feature.

But, I know that what is of no value to me would be a selling point for others.

I wouldn't want to take a long drive sitting in those seats!

badgerfan · April 2005

I'm sure that is what you tell all your prospective Ody customers. However DC can spin it that they introduced stowable seats first on both rows and no one else has matched that.. Also DC uses high tech tempur-pedic type foam on these stowable seats, that feel firm, but conform nicely to your butt.

In any event, the "uncomfortable" seats do not seem to be hampering sales in the least. In fact DC is grabbing back market share in pretty good clumps, based on the numbers.

jipster · April 2005

Well, yes...specifically I was referring to the second and third row seats being "stowable" and not having been done before.
I sat in the stowable second row seats of a DC van at the recent auto show here in Louisville.They aren't your deep and plush seats you find on some other minivans....but they weren't "uncomfortable". Anyone have experience with these seats on long trips?
I would think Chrysler/Dodge will see a first quarter dip in sales in 2006 as the Toyota Sienna has seen this year. No new/redesigned models coming out that I know of.

isellhondas · April 2005

they had two DC vans with stow n' go seats and both were broken and wouldn't go up. In all fairness to Chrysler, people TRASH the car show display cars. No doubt they were "stowed and goed" hundreds of times.

I'm glad you find them comfortable. I thought they were very thin and hard. they HAVE to be thin in order to stow. I've had customers leave my store, go to a DC store only to dismiss the seats as uncomfortable or of little value to them.

Having said this, I know others like yourself will feel differently. Sometimes the smallest thing will wow or sway a customer. I once had an elderly couple buy a Camry instead of an Accord because of a full sized spare tire of all things.

I don't think it would be too difficult for Honda to change theirseating if sales are being affected because of this. They thought long and hard before deciding not to forgo seat comfort for storage compartments. Who knows what they may do in the future?

marine2 · April 2005

I have a 2005 Dodge GC with stow-n-go seats. They are firmer because they are thinner. But not uncomfortable at all. My wife and I took some friends down to the Mexican border last week, (about a three hour drive from our home.) Our friends never complained about the seats.

Most of the time I keep one seat stowed and keep one up. That allows me to stow my furniture pad, battery cables, umbrella, tools and flash light in one of the bins, out of sight. It also makes picking up my three grand children a lot easier. I find many times when I do have to carry stuff in my van, it goes in a lot easier threw the side door and sits where one of the seats are stowed, rather than having to lift it higher threw the back. I did that Tuesday with an air compressor I took over to my brothers house. The dog likes laying there to when taking him with me.

One good thing about stow n go. Your always ready to load things no matter if planned on or not. No going home and taking out the middle row seats and going back and loading up something you bought on the spur of the moment.

denver5357 · April 2005

"Just checked the internet inventory listing for four Honda dealers in my area. One had 8 new Odys, another 11, another 13, and the fourth 23."

Badgerfan, your profile says you live in Wisc. And someone else posted there were lots of Ody's in Indiana. You are both in a region where imports are not typically favored. I lived in Indiana for 8 years, and got constant comments about my Toyota. I would not be surprised if there were more Ody's on lots there.

Now go to the coasts, or where I am (Colorado), and generally I believe it is a different story when it comes to inventory (tho it is finally getting better).

denver5357 · April 2005

"One good thing about stow n go. Your always ready to load things no matter if planned on or not."

Unless you have car seats in the second row, in which case you cannot stow the stow n go without removing the car seats (a pain ... takes forever to get those dang things in right!).

That's why I think the stow n go is such an odd idea. People who buy minivans usually do so for kids, and that means they have car seats which means you cannot really easily use stow n go. I am sure there are some buyers who have kids who don't need car seats (older kids), and some minivan drivers who don't have kids, but I am guessing the widest part of the minivan driving segment would find stow n go awkward because of car seats.

marine2 · April 2005

Unless you have car seats in the second row, in which case you cannot stow the stow n go without removing the car seats (a pain ... takes forever to get those dang things in right!).

That's why I think the stow n go is such an odd idea. People who buy minivans usually do so for kids, and that means they have car seats which means you cannot really easily use stow n go. I am sure there are some buyers who have kids who don't need car seats (older kids), and some minivan drivers who don't have kids, but I am guessing the widest part of the minivan driving segment would find stow n go awkward because of car seats.

.Not anymore than with any other van, if you need to take out the middle row, you still have to remove the baby car seats, plus remove the middle seats. That's worse yet. Or pay a store $15.00 -$35.00 to deliver it for you.

robr2 · April 2005

Not anymore than with any other van, if you need to take out the middle row, you still have to remove the baby car seats, plus remove the middle seats. That's worse yet. Or pay a store $15.00 -$35.00 to deliver it for you

Not so - with latch car seats all you have to do is remove the vehicle seat and leave the car seat attached.

mrblonde49 · April 2005

but I am guessing the widest part of the minivan driving segment would find stow n go awkward because of car seats. "

But they are there if you need them. Simple as that. And with current LATCH systems, car seats are much easier to remove and install. With car seats, there is no issue with alleged seat comfort. And it's not like they cost extra. In fact, the sticker prices came down thousands when Stow & Go came out. I don't see the downside in the carseat scenerio, which applies to much of the minivan population, as you state. That's probably why they are a smash hit

marine2 · April 2005

Ok, you have the same thing Chrysler brought out years ago, where the baby seat is part of the van's seat.

Well, I suggest if you have little ones and you hardly ever need taking out your middle row and don't care about having stuff laying around the floor or seats, your better off with something else. It all depends on what you want to use it for and how fussy you are.

badgerfan · April 2005

They aren't in baby seats for very long, yet many people, if you are like me, keep your vans a long time, past when the kids are in car seats.

Trust me, it is much easier to remove a baby/toddler car seat than it is a captains chair. We have them in the second row of our 1996 Caravan and they really are quite a beast to get out of the van and back in. I pull one or both out of the second row for some task probably 7-8 times a year. Not a lot, however I really do not like to do it even that rarely.

I agree with mrblonde49. With stow and go they are there to be stowed when you need them, and the convenience is hard to beat. DC increased sales after introduction is prooving the popularity. In fact DC spent more $ to convert their St Louis plant to accomodate Stow and Go, it has been so popular.

When ODY had the stowable third row and DC did not, there was a lot of crowing on the ODY advocates part about DC being behind in offering this feature. Now that DC did them one better, it seems hard for them to eat crow.

jipster · April 2005

The Stow and Go is responsible for DC increased sales. Next years first quarter will show if this is just a passing fad...or is something consumers really want.If sales continue to stay strong and improve....look for Honda and the other players to come out with it....probably improve on it.(I'd like a system where you can still keep a 4 or 5 inch layer of junk... and still be able to fold your seats down on it) It is a very nice feature, but according to some comes at a cost with second row seats not being as comfortable.

denver5357 · April 2005

"Well, I suggest if you have little ones and you hardly ever need taking out your middle row and don't care about having stuff laying around the floor or seats, your better off with something else."

That is sort of what I am getting at. If stow n go is THE big feature for a van, and I don't want to go through the hasel of removing car seats to stow the second row, then the big feature for that van is nullified. Like I said, there are certainly some folks out there who have kids who don't need car seats or no kids at all and like the stow n go, but I would think the largest segment of the minivan buying crowd would ponder whether stow n go makes sense.

And as for the Chrysler vans being "smash hits," there have been a number of posts about that. Take out fleet sales and sales to Midwesterners who don't like to "buy foreign" and people who think the lower price is a better deal without considering other factors and I don't know that the vans remain "smash hits." Marketing does wonders on the general public.

mrblonde49 · April 2005

And as for the Chrysler vans being "smash hits," there have been a number of posts about that. Take out fleet sales and sales to Midwesterners who don't like to "buy foreign" and people who think the lower price is a better deal without considering other factors and I don't know that the vans remain "smash hits." Marketing does wonders on the general public. "

Flawed logic. Fleet sales have been there for years, as have been certain Midwestern opinions, as have been "value only" buyers. What hasn't been there for years is the big increase in sales. That came with Stow N Go. It had been in steady decline previously. Really no way to argue against these facts

badgerfan · April 2005

You hit it exactly on the head. The one major change made by DC was introduction of Stow and Go and very little else changed in the design that is visible to the car buying public. The styling didn't change, the engines/drive train options didn't change, and in fact they dropped the AWD option. So in reality about the only difference has been introduction of stow and go (along with a drop in the MSRP so they didn't have to offer as large a rebates as in the past, though I surmise out the door prices between 2004 and 2005 models actually didn't change much).

Fleet buyers likely could care little whether their minivans have stowable seats, though I could see some fleet buyers being prone to the flexibility offered by quick conversion to cargo vs passengers.

We midwestern buyers may be more prone to buy domestic brands (we typically more frugal midwesterners like to keep the extra cash saved in our bank accounts rather than in depreciating formed steel, be it domestic or foreign brands), but we were disposed that way in 2004 as well as in 2005, so that remained unchanged as well.

Clearly, Stow and Go has revived DC sales rates dramatically and the public, either in the middle of the country or on the coasts or both, has ramped up their purchasing rates of DC vans, as market share had been slowly steadily eroding to Honda and Toyota until recently.

robr2 · April 2005

Can you post a link to the numbers?

badgerfan · April 2005

http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp

robr2 · April 2005

Thank you. But I'd like to compare March to March. Wasn't stow and go introduced around April of last year?

badgerfan · April 2005

Yes Stow and Go came in about April 2004 if I remember correctly. I don't know of any site that gives March to March numbers. This site lists calendar YTD 2005, YTD 2004, and March 2005 compared to March 2004. In any case, the first quarter 2004 could be considered all 2004 models for sure.

mrblonde49 · April 2005

March 05 to March 04 is 28% increase:

Sales of Chrysler Group minivans, the industry sales leader and the only minivans with the exclusive Stow 'n Go seating system surged 28 percent to 41,015 units, surpassing previous year sales of 30,817 units. Chrysler Town & Country sales increased 32 percent to 16,262 units compared to 11,881 units last year. Dodge Caravan posted sales of 24,753 units, an increase of 26 percent over March 2004 sales of 18,936 units.

robr2 · April 2005

In any case, the first quarter 2004 could be considered all 2004 models for sure.

That's true, but it's also possible that they slowed down/stopped production of 2004's a couple of months beforehand to build up inventory on the stow n go equipped 2005's.

In any case, yes DC's sales are up over 20%. Are their profits up? That's more important - capturing market share is easy if you are willing to forgo that pesky profitability.

hansienna · April 2005

And the Sienna sales are DOWN for 2005 YTD and March 2005 is also DOWN from February 2005?
The sales success of the 2005 Caravan/Grand Caravan and Town & Country is quite remarkable.

badgerfan · April 2005

Frankly, as a consumer I don't really care all that much whether a manufacturer's profits are high, as long as they stay in business as a going viable operation and I can count on being able to get service and parts if needed in the future.

Profits are not a dirty word either, but if a manufacturer is willing to cut their profit margins for whatever reason, this is to my benefit. If they can offer me a vehicle I want at a competitive price and they make a lot of profit, more power to them.

jipster · April 2005

If profits aren't as high as manufacturer likes though, may influence their decision in quality of parts they put in their cars...as well as other cost cutting measures which 'could' negatively influence the overall quality and reliability of their vehicles.

robr2 · April 2005

And to add a little more - poor profits lead to poor stock price and most of us have some sort of investment vehicle. Further, poor profits lead to potential closing of plants, more offshore outsourcing....

If they can offer me a vehicle I want at a competitive price and they make a lot of profit, more power to them. Just wait until Caravans are coming out of Mexico...

denver5357 · April 2005

If you are saying sales of DC have increased vs. past sales of DC, that's fine. What I was pointing out was that a significant portion of ALL sales of DCs and other domestic vans are fleet sales.

It doesn't matter whether a fleet sales buyer wants stow n go or not. US fleet sales are driven by the belief that those who buy fleets (universities, governments, other entities) must "buy American." Find a fleet buyer for a city who can buy, say, a Honda Ody because the long-term costs are lower ... nearly impossible.

denver5357 · April 2005

"What hasn't been there for years is the big increase in sales. That came with Stow N Go. It had been in steady decline previously. "

But if the only significant change in a van whose sales, as you mention, had been declining was a feature that is about convenience (stow n go, which I still wonder how useful it really is for owners with young kids), isn't that ... marketing? People are shows a convenience for a product in which other factors are more important (safety, reliability, performance), are told it is convenient, and all of a sudden they start buy the same van they shunned before? That's marketing.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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