Honda's Hybrid
Honda's Hybrid? Give me a break. If you do the gasoline math at $1.25 a gallon you will see that it will take you over 100,000 miles of operation to recover your additional $4,000 Hybrid option. This does not even include the "EXTRA" HYBRID maintenance costs that even Honda won't comment on. And if you think you are helping to save the planet with your hybrid, you need to get a life. If you want greater mileage for thousands less consider a VW diesel Jetta or Golf. The new turbo-direct-injection diesels are cleaner than some gasoline models and they can get 42/50 MPG respectfully. Save money, save time, and "Oh Yes" save the planet with a diesel...
Tagged:
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Like we've discussed before, the hybrids really can't be justified right now on pure economics. They are more for people who can afford to be on the "leading edge".
Sure hope the Escape hybrid http://www.hybridford.com will have a extra long warranty on its battery pack, but I don't know. FoMoCo has a big opperutinity here if they don't blow it.
And if you start going into emmissions and pollution, consider how clean modern engines burn as well as how to dispose of an electric/hybrid car's batteries.
Edmunds prices out a manual Honda Civic EX (which is the starting point for the Civic Hybrid) to:
$16,974
The Hybrid Civic also has the additional features:
- Auto climate control
- Electronic Brake distribution
- Keyless entry
- Electric power steering
If you go for an automatic add $750 to that so lets just round that up to say..
$18,000
The Hybrid on the other hand is promised to be less that $20,000.
I would think that'd apply both for the manual and CVT, so for arguments sake set than to $20,000.
Even if we give or take $500 for inaccuracies that is still FAR from the $4,000 difference detractors like to mention. There is also a possible $1,500 to $2,000 tax break for the Civic Hybrid in the near future. Add to that the fuel savings and feel good factor (for some) and that isn't too bad.
The Civic Hybrid will be coming out April yet.... so why not just wait a couple of months and see how it plays out?
On the other hand, i would really prefer a more practical vehicle hybrid than a civic. I'm hoping Toyota will put their hybrid engine in the Matrix. It IS small enough for a super efficient hybrid setup with CVT, it does look like it has the engine bay size, a 110 power outlet best served by a hybrid engine, and an AWD which could easily be converted to a front wheel gas with rear wheel electric motor drive hybrid for on the road AWD.
But i digress... (-; that should be for another topic.
Remember that from a stand still its the torque that matters not the hp. And contrary to common misconception, electric motors excel on that. A lot of pure electric cars achieve 0 to 60mph in stunning 4 to 6 seconds. If you look at the Ford Escape hybrid and the Dodge Durango hybrid, both perform better than their common counterparts. Hell, 93hp is actually better than Flicka's favorite 1.9 TDI engines. But because it has gobs of torque, it's no slug either.
Hybrid technology isn't going to go mainstream in couple of years. Until then, trying out if you care is or would like to can't be thrown out the window. It is possible that this technology advances almost like computers did in the 90's, or it may be a flop. What is wrong with trying?
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. - Einstein
My concern would still be with the battery pack. I'd hate to have a car 10 years from now that's worth maybe $4000, then the battery dies, and it needs a $2000 battery pack to run again. Yes, the price of the batteries should drop, but I don't think they'll ever be dirt cheap.
While it is true that high starting/low-end torque will make a car easy to launch and feel quick at low speeds, Its overall performance will suffer if that torque cannot be sustained to sufficient speed. The CVT may help IF it is positively coupled to the engine(s), but if they use a torque converter, that advantage may be negated. We'll have to wait and see, but in any case, it is not likely to have performance comparable to a car of similar price.
If you fit this description and care to share your input on the subject, please contact Kristen Gerencher at kgerencher@marketwatch.com or Jeannine Fallon at jfallon@edmunds.com by noon EST Tuesday, March 19.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
BUILD IT, and I will come.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Side airbags, automatic climate control, ABS with EBD (electronic brake distribution), alloy wheels, AM/FM/CD, immobilizer etc. are standard.
Digital and analog instrument gauge cluster with IMA system display, daytime and nighttime mode, and vehicle system performance meters.
Upgraded interior with open head front restraints.
1.3 liter 8 valve/I-4 SOHC iDSI (two spark plugs per cylinder) engine with second generation Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system, 93 HP @ 5700 rpm and 116 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm.
www.HondaNews.com
It will be interesting to see how the market responds.
2700 lb. is not a big deal if the engine is geared right. The following will provide a clue to the shape of the torque curve,
Civic Hybrid - Dyno
It lacks top end power because the gasoline engine it is using is a 2-valve/cylinder configuration designed to perform only in low and mid-range, and electric motors are always at their best at low engine speeds. Combine them, and the effect is a sharply falling torque curve past the mid-range, hence lower power.
As far as tire size goes, while adequate, they are not to be confused with performance. The side-wall size would be about 5.1 inch, just as much as it is in my 2000 Civic EX (same size tires), and 0.11 inch more than that in my Accord. Rolling resistance may have been one of the criteria to choose the tire size because when it comes to Honda, they often take pride in claiming that certain change added fuel efficiency by 1 or 2%, sounds amusing at times, but then, I can feel the accomplishments that those engineers must strive for.
As far as price premium, I think Honda has tried to narrow the gap between regular Civics and the hybrid. These are the features that are not available in Civic EX,
ABS (optional with manual transmission, standard with auto; standard in Hybrid)
EBD (the Hybrid becomes the second Honda in America to offer electronic brake distribution as standard equipment)
Automatic Climate Control (you get standard a/c in EX)
Brushed aluminum interior (something I noticed at auto show)
Alloy wheels (an option in EX)
Side airbags (optional in EX, standard in Hybrid)
Besides the new technology that comes with it. I would be curious about how it does in the market too, but my guess is, quite well. I'd really consider an Accord hybrid if Honda delivers one with the 2.4 liter engine and a larger electric motor. I hope they do over next couple of years.
Now, if Honda would upgrade the Insight with its second generation, 93hp, hybrid drive from the new Civic, they might pique my interest. Particularly if they offered a roadster version.
Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat takes place every Wednesday! (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us this week, March 27th, when our topic will be:
Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid
Or will it??
Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
That said, Civic Hybrid will be better to drive around town compared to other Civics, as long as the driver doesn't try to explore revs beyond 4500 rpm for all out acceleration. My guesstimate on 0-60 for the Civic Hybrid is 11.5s with manual transmission.
I owned a 98' Corolla for almost 2 years and averaged close to 36mpg in mostly highway driving. I drove quite a bit, >18k miles per year. If instead I had a car that got 50mpg I would have saved about $150 a year in gas. This would have required me to keep this car 20 years to offset the $3k premium I had paid for the hybrid technology. While I agree that horsepower is overated so is paying 3k to save $150 a year. And this isn't even taking into consideration the battery replacement cost hybrid owners will incur.
Hypothetically. What if it was possible to build a car like Honda's hybrid that was the same in every way (performance, efficiency, ammenities, price) with the exception that it did not incorporate hybrid technology. In today's market how popular would this vehicle be? My point is, I wonder if people are willing to pay this premium for the novelty rather than utility factor
As far as hybrid technology being a novelty goes, the fact is that even V6 is a novelty to many. It is generally more out of want than out of need. Performance requirements do vary from person to person, and $3K seems like quite a chunk of money in a car with MSRP under $20K, but in cars that cost $40K, $3K may not buy an option package. For some, it may be worth it, for others, it will not be.
Cost will go down as volume goes up, and technology improves. I still remember my early days with computers when looking at the first PC with 286 left my eyes wide open. 40 MB hard disk was a big deal. Today, what do we get for $699? And Civic Hybrid is cheaper than Insight already.
Snaphook:What if it was possible to build a car like Honda's hybrid that was the same in every way with the exception that it did not incorporate hybrid technology. In today's market how popular would this vehicle be?
That's is a good point. If not exactly like it, Honda does offer a 5-door subcompact in Asia/Europe called Fit/Jazz. This car utilizes a new engine (the same power plant that is the primary motor in Civic Hybrid), designed with focus on fuel efficiency and emissions. Perhaps a better performer than Civic Hybrid as far as all out acceleration goes (a curb weight of only 2250 lb. helps), way cheaper too. The down side is that it uses an inferior version of the suspension setup (beam axle rear), and has lower equipment level. It is even rated at 23 km/liter in Japanese mode of fuel consumption testing (compared to 29.5 km/liter for Civic Hybrid)/ However, it does not showcase the possibilities for the future that Civic Hybrid does.
As far as the hybrid Civic being cheaper than the GX, are they comparably equipped?
As for hybrid possibilities, think fuel cell. Yes, Honda's fuel cell prototype (as well as Ford's upcoming FCV Focus) uses hybrid technology. The fuel cell replaces the gasoline motor. However, until fuel cell becomes an acceptable solution, for the near term, I do see the potential for strides in hybrid technology, especially with regard to the recharging process. What do you think about 100% electric power and 50% gasoline power, with half of the gasoline engine actually working as electricity generator and continuously recharging the batteries?
Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat is tonight (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us tonight, March 27th, when our topic will be:
Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid
Or will it??
Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
What I don't understand is why all these hybrid cars seem to be in the subcompact class. The energy lost when breaking is a function of mass. Therefore larger vehicles seem like they would be more appropriate platforms for showcasing the benefits of a hybrid. Just look at the disparity between city and highway mileage in a subcompact compared to a full sized vehicle.
I'm not sure how much further we can go in the efficiency of the charging process. But I think there are gains to be made in the direction of reducing the size of the components involved.
Using gasoline to generate electricity is one of the paths already being developed for fuel cell vehicles. My understanding is that Hydrogen needed for the fuel cell can be extracted from gasoline or methanol through a chemical process that requires no energy. The beauty of this is we could have vehicles powered by electric motors which are more efficient than IC engines while using the same infrastructure (gas stations) to recharge.
The term hybrid is valid for any of the following combinations, gasoline-electric, diesel-electric or even fuel cell-electric. Instead of gasoline or diesel engine supplying energy to the electric motor, it is the fuel cell stack that does the job. This is the way Honda's fuel cell prototype (currently called FC-V4) works.
As far as current hybrid cars being in the sub-compact class, it is probably about experimenting with new ideas applied on a smaller scale and with lower costs. As far as greater mass contributing towards greater energy towards recharging process, you have to also take into consideration that greater mass will also require greater energy to get going. So it may even out.
I have a feeling that recharging process can be improved drastically. In fact, using only regenerative braking to recharge a battery pack for a 13 HP, 36 lb.-ft DC motor is impressive enough for me. As for reducing size of the components, looks like that was one of the intentions during the transition from Insight to Civic Hybrid, getting similar output from a smaller pack. Obviously, smaller pack would also improve recharging efficiency.
I like the idea of electric motor driving the vehicle with gasoline/diesel/CNG/fuel cell etc. being used as on-board generators.
I'm still not clear on what you mean by a fuel cell/electric hybrid. Fuel cells produce electricity. Do you mean that the fuel cells would be charging the battery which would in turn be powering the electric motor?
Whether twice as heavy vehicle is going to benefit more or less, remains to be seen, but the first consideration has to be the size of electric motor and the battery pack. The current 13 HP/36 lb.-ft electric motor in Civic Hybrid may work well for 2700 lb. car. For a 5000 lb. car, it may be desirable to go larger. If hybrid technology improves, we can be sure to see them being applied on larger scale. It is too early to expect full scale results from a full lineup.
I'm still not clear on what you mean by a fuel cell/electric hybrid. Fuel cells produce electricity. Do you mean that the fuel cells would be charging the battery which would in turn be powering the electric motor?
Not necessarily charging batteries, but to me, hybrid technology is about using two sources of energy. A petroleum-electric hybrid could very well be an electricity generator, the input from the pump being gasoline or diesel, and the generator being the ICE. A fuel cell stack become the generator, and hydrogen is the input to supply energy to drive the vehicle.
In other words, hybrid technology is not limited to use of batteries, but the source of the driving force. But that is just my opinion, you may disagree.
Now imagine the other route, from large vehicle, working its way to smaller vehicles. Two different approaches, but it is the small to large approach that makes sense to me. If you were to start a company to make engines, would you start producing large engines, say V8 or V12, or would you start with four cylinder, or less?
It sure makes sense that technology is applied to where it is needed. And it will happen. In fact, Honda has already showcased couple of high powered hybrid prototypes, one is on display at NYAS (DNX). It can be done, but once again, current technology is not the end of it. I agree that 46/51 mpg is not as great improvement over 34/45 mpg of VW TDI or 36/44 mpg of Civic HX, but then, there are compacts running around with 22-24/31-32 mpg fuel efficiency too!
I'm sure we will see Hybrid CRV soon. That is the next step up, believe me, while Ford prepares for Escape HEV. We just want everything, atonce, right?