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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Me too. I just crowned my Car Of The Year. Is it the same as yours?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, one of the cars you drove at the drive event you attended! I need to keep it under wraps to let the anticipation build to a national outcry. Then, the reveal!

    BTW, its called the Circle Award.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Just curious, why the "have to have" V8? ...

    The effortless acceleration of a V8. I drove the 535i Sport the same day, and it just didn't cut the mustard with me. The delayed kick-down of the automatic, the seemingly slow buildup of speed/power... It just didn't feel as nice as the 550i. The 550i, to me, rides better, is quieter, and feels more planted. And at cruising speed, the sound of the V8 completely disappears. The I6 definitely makes enough fuss at speed to make it known that it's working hard for you. In a 3-series, that's tolerable. In a 5-series, at that price, it's totally unacceptable. That's why, when I was still searching, my focus was mainly on the V8 cars (A6 4.2, M45, E550, GS430, 550i.) However, the 535i was in the running because of its twin turbos and power output, but after driving it, I came back to my original requirements. I made the same mistake with the RL, only to be even more disappointed.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    .....The I6 definitely makes enough fuss at speed to make it known that it's working hard for you. In a 3-series, that's tolerable. In a 5-series, at that price, it's totally unacceptable......

    It's the individual's call about a 535 vs. 550, I6 biturbo vs.V8, something I wouldn't argue. But, after almost 5000 mi. with my '08 535, I couldn't disagree more with your comment above. It is simply something I have not found to be true. In fact it is so seamless in acceleration and silky smooth and quiet that I have to keep reminding myself that it isn't an "8".

    (BTW, I also am enjoying my current 26.4 mpg in (mostly city) combination city/ highway driving and my lease savings compared to a 550.)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Not an owner but having looked at pricing/power/economy, I'd side with you that the 535 seems like a wise choice.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Not an owner but having looked at pricing/power/economy, I'd side with you that the 535 seems like a wise choice.

    My point was not what car, the 535 or 550 is the "wise choice", because that is personal choice. My issue with tayl0rd was that he made the 535 sound like it was straining and was anemic. Believe me, it's neither.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I can appreciate what you are saying about the subjective feel and sound of the V8 vs. the I6, even if the I6 is now nearly as powerful and quick as the V8. I still recall my test drive of the former M5 and how impressed I was with the effortless acceleration and free revving engine. If somebody knows where I could find a new 2002 M5 that was packed in ice, I'd buy it tomorrow.

    On the other hand, I wonder if you feeling regarding the I6 was tainted by saddling it with an automatic transmission? Didn't you say a manula transmisson was also a "have to have"? I've been surprised enough by the difference in feel between the same car with a manual vs. automatic to know I would never pre-judge the manual by the automatic.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Considering the weight is nearly the same as the 335i it's easy to believe its power to weight is quite good.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... On the other hand, I wonder if you feeling regarding the I6 was tainted by saddling it with an automatic transmission? ...

    That wasn't my choice. It was all they had. And some of the automatic lovers here claim how "wonderful" and "equal to/better than the manual" it is, I figured I'd give it a try. I was very disappointed.

    And I didn't say the I6 was wheezing or straining, just that you can tell that it is working harder than the V8 from the "noise." I wasn't trying to be offensive.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I was just doing a search the other day (my manager is looking for a 6 series) and came across this 2003 M5 with only 12Kmiles (in my geographic area)...

    Impressive, but not sure if the price is appropriate for the age.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    That car looks amazing! He/She definitely took fantastic care of it, for sure. But I wouldn't pay $50K for it. Being a 2003, that means it was probably sold in 2002 which means it's near 6 calendar years old. A 2003 M5 sold for, what, $75K when new? He/She still wants 67% of MSRP on a 6 year old car? Heck, you can't even get 67% residual on a 3 year lease for an M5! (Granted, the mileage is remarkably low on that car, but still.) I'm pretty sure he's negotiable on the price.

    I'd still go check it out if I were you.
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    It's the individual's call about a 535 vs. 550, I6 biturbo vs.V8 ..... after almost 5000 mi. with my '08 535 ..... it is so seamless in acceleration and silky smooth and quiet that I have to keep reminding myself that it isn't an "8".

    +1 with my 535Xi.

    I hope this isn't too far off topic, but my wife and I just finished the BMW two day performance driving school. The last event we did was to drive each of three cars for 3 laps around what I would call a small, rather tight road race loop as fast as we wanted to go / as fast as we could go. We first took turns driving a 6 cylinder X-5, and were amazed at how we could sling that vehicle around the corners. Next, we drove an M-5 with SMG. It handled great, and had power, but not as overwhelming as I had imagined. Lastly, we drove a 335i with Steptronic and sport suspension- wow, was that car a screamer! I think over that short loop, with us two ametuers driving, the 335i was faster than the M-5. Just like in my own 535Xi, the engine in the 335i was uber responsive and very fast in acceleration.

    One of the instructors said they have driven the 135i. He said they did a drag race with an M-6, and up to about 80 mph the 135i was faster.

    Bruce
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I agree, that asking price is high by $7-$10k.

    However, not sure where you are getting 6 years old. My (late production) 2005 911S is 26 months old. The local BMW dealer wants me to come in for a "great deal" on a brand new 2007 550i 6-speed (not a demo 23 miles on odometer). So, worst case scenario, that M5 is just barely 5 years old, possible as little as 4 and a couple of months, but definitely not 6.

    And also, don't forget that M5's sold for at least 100%+ of MSRP, with no ability to get European Delivery discounts. So, you can't really compare resale prices of a limited production car like the M5 to a mass produced 550i. The 2007 that the dealer called me on has an MSRP of $69,880. I told him not to waste my time unless he's weilling to take at least $9,000 off and his response was that I could have the car for $61k tomorrow, if I wanted it. At this particiular dealership, if I had asked for a $500 discount on a 2003 M5, I would have been laughed out of the showroom.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    You did see where I said "it was probably sold in 2002 which means it's near 6 calendar years old," right? We're heading headlong into 2008 right now. 2008 - 2002 = 6

    Near means close, but not quite, or next to, or in the vacinity of. :P

    And why can't I compare the prices? An M5 depreciates the same as any other 5-series. It just has a much higher initial price, and price gouging is NEVER accounted for in resale. The depreciation is relatively the same. Limited edition or not, it's still an outdated model. The mass produced thing is also relative. I believe someone (wasn't it you?) said there are actually more M5s in the States than there are V8 5-series, year-to-year. That would make a V8 non-M 5-series more exclusive and rare than an M5. So my 550i Sport should theoretically hold it's relative value better than an M5! :) Especially with it being a stick.
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    I happen to own a 2003 M5 with 45k miles. And, coincidentally, before I bought the M5, I had been all set to purchase a 545i Sport 6-speed. The party that had the M5 on order defaulted, dealer called me and I came in with a check for full MSRP that afternoon.

    The M5 certainly depreciates, but not proportionally as much as the standard V8 5-series. At least not in my (Pittsburgh) area. I paid $75,800 for mine, and have been offered $38,000 in cash (not trade) by the dealer. The 545i had an MSRP of $62,000 and would probably be worth around $26,000 today (rough estimate by my dealer). The big difference is that the M5 has a dedicated enthusiast following. Everyone knows what it is. The 545i/550i 6-speeds are very nice cars, but less than 10% of V8 buyers opt for the 6 speed. The vast majority are automatics and sold to an affluent, but not necessarily "driving enthusiast" demographic. That definitely makes resale a bit more of a challenge and my dealer indicated he would only take a 545/550 of any kind on a trade (would not buy for cash).

    I didn't buy the M5 with resale value being a high consideration. But I'm pretty sure that if I looked at the numbers, I'd get most of the additional $15k I spent on the M5 over the 545i back, if I decided to part with it tomorrow. But I have no interest in doing that. It still drives like the day I bought it and there really is nothing sweeter in a sedan than that hand built M engine effortlessly running up to redline or that sport suspension handling the curves almost as well as my 911 Turbo.

    P.S. I bought in May 2003, making it exactly 4 1/2 years old. As in precisely.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    2008s are on the lot. Whether you bought that 2003 car in January of 2004 or September of 02, a 2003 car is viewed as 5 years old.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    It's all beside the point, really...

    The question is: Is $49K a good price for an '03 M5 with very low miles?

    Seems pricy to me... I think somewhere in the mid-$'40s...

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  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    As a 2003 530SP owner (Titanium Silver/Black), this is one beautiful M5! All mine lacks is the punch from the new TT motor, but I'd seriously give a clean, low-mileage '03 M5 a close look.

    It only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but agree tht it is priced at least 5-7K too high. Owner is adding a low miles premium and it does appear to be in fantastic condition.

    As much as I love some of the new cars on the market from BMW, Audi, Infiniti, etc.; I still maintain an attachment to my car. After any test drive of another vehicle, I drive my car home and understand what a great ride it is all over again!

    Will say that the new Audi S5 intrigues me. Very nice car. 6-sp only at this time, with Tiptronic on the way around April '08. Drives beautifully as a high performance touring coupe. Would not even consider a MB CLK after driving the S5. 335 Coupe is still strong, IMO, due to being such a great performer. Have had a fantastic ownership experience with my BMW... unsure about the S5 prospects at this time.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Whether you bought that 2003 car in January of 2004 or September of 02, a 2003 car is viewed as 5 years old.

    I agree, but apparantly another posted has figured out that because 6 is in the "vacinity" (sic) of 5, it's really a 6 year old car. :confuse:

    Fortunately, my 12 year old is a little more precise with her math skills and hasn't suggested that, since shes in the "vicinity" of 16, she should start learning to drive the 911. Which would put me in the vicinity of a heart attack. ;)

    P.S. Since when is even a 6 year old M5 a "entry level" luxury performance sedan. I suspect this digression will soon be terminated by the Host.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Sure will, especially since someone's too childish to be able to avoid personal insults. The maturity level must be in the "vicinity" of the 12 year old girl's. :sick:
  • wdomburgwdomburg Member Posts: 6
    You need to take into account that the 1987 Accord was also a compact while the 2007 model falls on the large end of the mid-size market (with the 2008 officially jumping to a full-size). Likewise 1987 was the last year the Corolla was produced as a subcompact. Even discounting the huge shift in brand perception over the past decades, you can't make apples to apples comparisons when the vehicles aren't even in the same class anymore.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is some news. I could not tell if some of the models will be applicable and perhaps some of the future names could be part of the ELLPS category. It just goes to show the continued muddied direction that boggles the mind!

    If you liked alphabet soup as a kid, make an appointment at your Cadillac dealer for three to five years from now. That's because GM has recently trademarked several new nameplates for Cadillac, and so far we're worried and a bit confused.

    At present, these names are trademarked in Europe and Canada. However, companies often register their trademarks in foreign markets first, and later in the United States.

    This potential new naming system is undoubtedly complicated, but we will try and lay it out in the simplest way possible. So far, GM has trademarked:

    * DT7
    * CT6
    * CT5
    * BT3
    * AT1
    * DTX
    * CTX
    * BTX

    We suspect the numbers in each name signifies each vehicle's overall size.

    The "DT7" might be the eventual DTS replacement, for example. This large, luxury sedan may end up riding on the Zeta chassis in a few years time.

    The CT6 and CT5 would be some kind of variants of the car we currently know as the CTS. One possibility is the numbers indicate two possible wheelbase lengths. On the other hand, we can't rule out the "5" and "6" being the current CTS sedan and forthcoming CTS coupe.

    The BT3 could represent the next-generation BLS. This vehicle would probably be on the Epsilon II chassis, however, with GM's plans on the new Alpha chassis being unclear, there is always a possibility BT3 could be an Alpha car.

    The AT1 is still a bit of a mystery. That said, it's a safe bet that this would be a small car that is definitely based on the Alpha chassis GM is currently developing. Could it be a competitor to the BMW 1-Series?

    The "X" cars will more than likely denote crossover or wagon vehicles. However we'd also leave open the option that the "X" indicates all-wheel-drive models.

    If the crossover assumption is true, the DTX is probably the vehicle currently known as the BRX. The CTX could be the forthcoming CTS wagon, and the BTX remains a mystery.

    Of course, the all-wheel-drive option is also a strong possibility. The CTX could be an AWD CT6 or CT5, while the DTX would be an AWD DT7, and so on.

    Obviously there is one glaring part of Cadillac's lineup not mentioned here — the Escalades. Some might suggest that the "X" vehicles we just talked about are in fact the trucks. However, given what our sources say, we don't think that's the case.

    That leaves a few options. One being that GM just hasn't gotten around to coming up with new names. Another being that the true Cadillac trucks will not be part of this new scheme and continue on with regular names. With the marketing power the Escalade name carries, we think the latter is more likely.
    :confuse:

    Regards,
    OW
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Am I the only one who thinks this new branding (Cadillac is not alone) is just a stupid gimmick? I miss Coupe de Ville, Sedan de Ville, Park Avenue, Bonneville, to name a few..... GM probably hired a consultant to come up the new designations, paid six figures or more. I'm sure there were better places to spend the money....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    No, those names link back to cars most associate with low quality and poor performance. Those names would hurt the brands more than help them.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Good point but even the Japanese brands were junk in the '60's. At least the name Camaro, Bonneville, Grand Prix meant something back then. After that era, the US traded with Japan on quality and became junk.

    I will keep an open mind for the future but for me, there is still bitter reminders of pain associated with Cadillac. The CTS is progressing but I just can't like the looks.

    Regards,
    OW
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I agree 100%, those were bad cars for years. :cry:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Nick! Welcome back! :)
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Thanks Pat :)
  • ezracerezracer Member Posts: 24
    Does the '08 TL have a heated steering wheel ??
  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    I have an '07 TL-S and it doesn't have a heated steering wheel and I haven't seen any ads for '08 that show it. Suppose it could be though...
  • ezracerezracer Member Posts: 24
    Let's see.........no heated steering wheel but it STILL has a cassette deck.
    Honda really missed the boat on this one. Get the stupid tape deck outta there and give us another feature that is a little more " high end " . Just MHO !!
  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    Well, you may not be old enough to have a collection of cassettes with material that's not available in CD format. I do and it's valuable to be able to play some of these from time to time. For younger folks there's an iPod port in the console; a feature that very few luxury cars had last year.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Uh, rip it. The desire to haul around tapes or CDs makes zero sense to me.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Yes casette player! Child o' the '70s, I still have quite a casette collection... Evil Wife's RX300 has a casette player, too. Rock on!

    Heated steering wheel wouldn't be a bad idea, though...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What's a cassette player?

    :confuse:
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Like an 8-track player, man. But groovier! ;)

    Peace, Love, Dove.

    I am old. :sick:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It hasn't been very long ago I found some 8 track tapes in the top of a seldomly-used closet. I pitched them. :blush:

    P.S. They were quadrophonic tapes, too!! :D
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Can't remember the last time I listened to a cassette, My wife, though, devours audio books. Her source for these is our local library, which has only begun to migrate its collection from tape to digital formats. So for at least the next couple of years, the cassette player in her car will get a workout.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Dude: Two words re: your 8 tracks: E. Bay. Chicks in New York are paying big bucks for those things!

    Think I'll pop my CSN & Y "Four Way Street" casette into the TL's 8 track player tonight...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • scmetalscmetal Member Posts: 7
    Some feedback from some tall drivers would be appreciated. I am 6'2" and want to hear how comfortable it is. I currently drive an Infiniti M35x which has nice leg room but I am looking for something that handles better.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Bro-in-law is 6-1 and mostly legs. He owns and loves an e46 sedan (much smaller inside than the e90). Good buddy is 6-2 and he drove my e46, e90 and R56 mini...loves them and believes he has plenty of room.

    That said, there are different 6-2s in this world. Some are 6-2 and 200lbs, others are 6-2 and 250. That could make a difference. :)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am 5' 10" and there is loads of room for the front seat for you IMO. You will not be disapointed in the 335xi. I have the 330xi and it is the best handling sedan I've ever driven.

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Like an 8-track player, man. But groovier! .... I am old.

    If you think you are old, perhaps the fact that my first serious stereo system included a reel-to-reel tape player will make you feel better.

    And my first car stereo, in a 1978 Datsun B210GX hatchback, included an underdash mounted Nakamichi 350 removable cassette player/recorder (120/12 volt), a Fosgate pre-amp and amplifier under the passenger seat and two JBL home sized 3 way speakers in the back hatch.

    One can debate ELLPS all day long, but I can assure you, parked at the local beach on a Saturday night, that B210GX was a far better "performance" vehicle than my 911S, if you get my drift.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Wow...Datsun...Entry Level Beach Machine...awsome.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "if you get my drift."

    Would that be sand drift? :shades
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I think I can read between the sheets lines... :blush:

    We had a reel to reel in our home, too. But not part of my system, was my Dad's.

    My first: '71 Saab 99. AM radio. Later upgraded, birthday present from Dad, to include and under-dash Radio Shack casette player. I believe that the first tune to eminate from that legendary audio player was The Doobies, "China Grove." I continue to be old... Better than the alternative!

    Yeah, Saab 99 and Datsun B210GX: Chick magnets!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here's some recall info for the CTS owners out there...I'm glad no pictures were on the site!

    General Motors has announced the recall of 276,000 vehicles. The recall is due to a faulty pinion seal, which can cause fluid leaks. The recall affects the 2005-07 Cadillac CTS, CTS-V, SRX, STS and STS-V; 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice; and 2007 Saturn Sky.

    Regards,
    OW
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    Getting in your quota of domestic-bashing for the week? You've been on a run at Cadillac lately. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Sorry for the bashing....years of sub-par offerings have taken their toll on me. I will make a resolution in the New Year to give Caddy a break.

    We could use some feedback from owners here on their experiences, however. I must admit there is a new passion to compete with the CTS.

    Happy holidays and Best Wishes to ALL.

    Regards,
    OW
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Just the facts... Not a bash. While it appears that GM is beginning to produce some worth(ier) products, this kind of recall just reinforces that last 30+ years of GM "quality."

    All mfg.'s have recalls and quality issues. It's just that the domestics have a streak going that, while hopefully slowing down, continues... If, instead of pouring millions of $ into the ad campaign that "Quality is Job 1," Ford had spent that money on improving quality, who knows???

    And, while I remain really ticked off at the domestics (because, there is no doubt in my mind that GM/Ford/Chrysler could build world class cars. In fact, in Europe I think that they do), I'm not a basher (well, certainly not as much as I used to be...!)
    Hey,my last car was a Chrysler 300M, really enjoyed it. Some initial quality issues taken care of under warranty. No issues outside the warranty period, but still being a Chrysler I wasn't going to keep it too long out of warranty... Also, build quality was certainly less than spectacular. But, still enjoyed that car! And, I'm considering a (used) Caddy XLR as a toy. But, the interior far from reflects the price and, well, it's a GM... :P

    My current ride, assembled here in Los Estados Unidos, is certainly screwed together to much higher tolerances than the Chrysler. No issues, other than a couple of rattles, at 33k+ miles.

    So anyway, Happy Holidays to all. Gotta find all the receipts for the gifts that don't fit the Evil Wife. :sick: (Luckily for me, they're too big!!!)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

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