Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

rayainsw · February 2010

As mentioned above, the 2 top contenders for my next car are currently the BMW 335iS & the Audi S4.

I learned something about the Audi transmission behavior since I tested the first one available in the Atlanta area. So I decided to take another short test drive on Saturday morning. To see if what I had learned had a significant effect of the aspects of the dual clutch seven speed S Tronic trans. behavior that had concerned me in my previous test drive.

And the short answer is: Yes.

The fact that I did not know is the existence of a kickdown switch in the S4s throttle travel.

From page 134 of the Owners Manual:
Kick-down

Kick-down enables maximum acceleration.

When you press the accelerator pedal down beyond the resistance point, the automatic transmission downshifts into a lower gear, depending on vehicle speed and engine RPM. It shifts up into the next higher gear once the maximum specified engine RPM is reached

My two objections to the transmission, when I drove one before, both had to do with the Manual-ness of the S Tronic when in Manual Mode.

1 - The automatic transmission downshifted when in Manual Mode & I floored the throttle. What I expected was: When in manual mode, remain in the gear selected, regardless of throttle position.

2  My commands to upshift before redline when accelerating at WOT were [ ahem ] declined. Completely ignored.

It turns out that I must have pressed right past that resistance point, and this caused the behaviors I observed.
[ I did not know about this feature  nor did the Sales Associate, when I questioned him about this. ]

So, this kickdown \ resistance point at WOT actually addresses both my criticisms.

Not pushing through this kick down switch makes a huge difference, for me.

With substantial throttle [ essentially WOT, but not quite foot to the floor ] the upshift commands are answered  quickly. And the shifts occur almost immediately  and with authority. Very quick, but not jarring. Excellent. And almost surreal.

And avoiding this switch also means no [ unwanted ] downshifts in manual mode, based only on throttle opening. Were good.

I also confirmed that the trans. will upshift at red line  not hang on rev limiter! The behavior I prefer.

So  Id still prefer that the trans. gear selected display be a bit larger, and higher in the dash display. . . But I can live with the current presentation, I suppose.

And there is still one thing I do find somewhat annoying about the trans.
At very low speeds, it automatically downshifts all the way to first  making it difficult to drive smoothly at parking lot speeds.

The rest of the car is impressive, to me:
Interior comfort, materials & styling appeal to me.
The handling is impressive.
The handling feel, particularly considering the significant front weight bias, was quite responsive & satisfying.
The ride was a bit harsh on cratered back streets, but this S4 had the 19 tires & wheels  where Id likely stick with the standard 18s.
And the Audi Drive Select Package  that includes the Sport Rear Diff.
For European Delivery.

Excellent.

It is remotely possible that the 335iS, with 370 TQ and the performance exhaust may seduce me  but, for now, the S4 is at the top of my short list.
- Ray

[ Note: It appears unlikely that the 335iS will be available for test at a Dealer before this June or July. Sigh. ]

plekto · February 2010

I hear you about the odd transmissions. My biggest gripe is that when in manual mode, most will behave correctly until they think they should do something else and you are suddenly not in control. A great example was when I was test-driving a RX8 a while back. At least it has the general concept right in that it stays in the gear you select most of the time. So leaving it in 3rd running around town was fine, and there was enough engine compression to work fine(as long as you didn't hit the brakes).

But when slowing down, it would do odd things. Say, I was going 35 and decided to slow down to 20. It would always drop into top gear and then wait. Then when it thought I was at the right speed, select a gear for me. Now, I know this is supposedly to keep the car from stalling with idiot drivers, but the second that you tapped the brakes, the engine reverted to automatic. So a simple maneuver of slowing from 35 to 20 in 2nd gear and then powering out of the corner wasn't possible if you used your brakes even the slightest bit. What happened was 35(tap brakes to slow down a little bit... shifts to overdrive(!), then when you hit the gas again in the middle of the turn, it selected 3rd(reverted to automatic mode - have to satisfy the EPA MPG tests). Then you had to manually downshift it to 2nd/override its behavior to power out of the turn.

It felt a lot like when you're at the top of a hill on a roller coaster and the thing disconnects from the chain. tick tick tick tick (full second of nothing happening as you are freed from the mechanism) Going from 2nd to 5th in a turn feels like you just dropped into neutral as the engine compression evaporates completely. On the RX8, it was very disconcerting since the thing has no torque at all unless it's revved up to 3-4K+

It should have just stayed in 2nd the whole time. Instead I got this feeling of the drive shaft being disconnected every time I hit the brakes to slow down a tiny bit. Which given the mile high gearing on most cars these days is impossible no to do - leaving it in gear to slow down takes ages.

Now some do better than others, but the thing is, just get a manual if they offer it. No idiocy, cheaper to repair and buy, and it behaves like it should at all times.

BTW, check out the G37. It impressed me.

rayainsw · February 2010

"Now some do better than others, but the thing is, just get a manual if they offer it. No idiocy, cheaper to repair and buy, and it behaves like it should at all times. "

Severe bursitis means that is just not an option, for me.
And, with commuting in & out of HotLanta = over half my driving
I would not even consider a manual trans.
YMMV.
- Ray
Satisfied with the S Tronic, overall . . .

markcincinnati · February 2010

The Audi offers, 3 1/2 different modes with the Tiptronic and ADS (D, S and M#1 and M#2, providing the "1/2" mode):

D = Drive mode (but you get Drive Comfort or Drive Auto)
S = Sport mode (still fully automatic shifting, but you get Drive Dynamic until you exit Sport mode)
M = Manual mode #1 - where "it" decides how long you stay in M mode; "it" decides when to take you back to D mode or S mode if you have used the paddle shifters and were either in Drive or Sport when you used the paddle.
M = Manual mode #2 - where it stays where you keep it, unless you slow below "lugging" then it will downshif from M6, to MN, where "N" is a lower gear based on road speed.

In Manual mode #2, I do not actually know if you were in M4, for instance and pressed the pedal to the metal if it would down shift or not. I thought I had read somewhere that kickdown was either disabled or that you had to push through the resistance (Resistance is Futile -- the Borg!)

So, in D, Auto mode, apparently you get, sometimes, D = Comfort mode and sometimes D = Dynamic (or sport) mode.

The Tip I have is the best ever -- it does, however, make me long for the DSG 7 speed and maybe even the new 8 speed Tiprtonic.

rayainsw · February 2010

Although no single number, or set of numbers, completely describes any automobile, I found this comparison interesting.
I drove an RS6 in 2003 or 2004  and found it to be a truly wonderful Sport Sedan.

. . . . . .2010 S4. . . . . . . .RS6 [ R&T data panel ]
Weight:. .4000. . . . . . .4000
WB:. . . .110.5. . . . . .108.6
Trans:. .7 spd auto. . . .5 spd auto
HP TQ:. .333\325. . . . .450\415
0-60 :. . .4.9 [est]. . . .4.6
QTR: . . .13.2 @ 107 [est]. .13.1 @ 106
Source of my est for S4 = R&T mini test update w/manual trans
C+D test, also manual trans. = 13.4 @ 106 vs 335i 13.6 @ 105

EPA MPG. .18\28[new sched]. .15\23 [ old EPA sched 
would be 14\20 under new EPA sched ]
Tank. . . .16.9. . . . . . .21.7
Range. .28 * 15.9 = 445. .23 * 20.7 = 476 [ 425 ? ]

Price. . .$48K - $60K. . . .$85K [ 2003 dollars ]

Based on these numbers, and my 2 test drives of 2010 S4s, I believe that Audi has delivered a Sport Sedan that is in many critical aspects, roughly as good as  if not better than  the RS6 from 2003.

For a whole lot fewer dollars.

- Ray
Impressed

slance66 · May 2010

After reading every forum and review known to man, I'm stumped. I'm driving an 07 Tribeca, which has good steering and loads of room, but bad ergonomics and a lousy tranny. My new commute, 3.25 miles each way. To avoid piling miles on my wife's RX350 (yes the Subie was hers, don't ask) I need something I can enjoy driving on backroads, and which my family of 3 can enjoy on long highway drives as much as the RX, with better mileage hopefully. Since I'll put few miles on it, anything with less than 70k on it used is on the table. I'm in New England, with a steep driveway,so RWD is a dicey proposition. Contenders:

07 525xi: Can I find one without idrive? Cupholders?
07 328xi: Same as above? Backseat? Pleather?
04-05 530i: RWD? Cupholders? iDrive?
07 Lexus E350: FWD? Isn't this a Camry?
07 Lexus IS250 AWD: Slow? Backseat a bad joke?
2003 530i: Backseat in this prior generation? RWD? Cupholders?
07 A4: backseat? reliability?
06 A6: reliability? availability?
06-07 MB C class 4matic: reliability, backseat room, mileage sucks for a small car
06 MB E350 4matic: reliability? Price is high.
Infiniti M35x: mileage is awful, worse than my SUV
Infiniti G35x: tempting, crappy mileage again.
Acura RL: wife hated it.
Acura TL: ??? New one is hideous.
Acua TSX: Too small...glorfied Civic.

A new Mazda 6 almost looks good in comparison. All the above will be post warranty (mostly), paid for with cash.

plekto · May 2010

(mulls over the data)

The best car for you would be a white 2009 Pontiac G8.(the other colors are "meh" and most women want that pearlescent white) Good reliability, low price, handles very well. Overall a great deal for the money that unfortunately GM in its idiocy decided to stop selling.

I drove one and it was about 80% as nice as the previous generation CTS, which is what I'd probably have otherwise recommend. But the fact that you want midsize over luxury and are considering the Mazda 6, plus the G35 means a few years old or certified is also in the consideration... (I get a $25K new/used price range, right?)

It really was an eye-opener. GM as usual, has their second best car aside from the new CTS NOT for sale in the U.S. It's still sold in Australia, and is the #1 car there.

Be sure to get the premium audio but NOT the nav, since that radio/information center is incredible and NAV systems are a waste of money.(just get a portable model for $300) One look at the radio and you'll see that it's the best radio/information center GM has ever built.

Note - the 2007 CTS is also an absolute steal. As the last year of the previous style, it has few reliability issues, looks and handles great, and well, it's under $20K for a certified example. There's probably no better used deal right now that I can think of, especially since in three months, off-lease models will start to appear.(4 years old is the sweet spot for certified/off-lease executive type cars)

No reason to buy now, though. Wait until the 2011 models come out and the used prices go down by several thousand dollars.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=278774963
This is the V8 model - crazy fun. Basically a Corvette family sedan. Yes, it does get ~25mpg highway as well in actual driving.

http://www.mpgomatic.com/2009/03/21/pontiac-g8-gt-mpg-review/
A great review - and it has the audio system I was talking about. If you pause it, the little rectangles on the shelf are the radio presets. It's as idiot-proof to use as it is good sounding.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=276570829
Expect $20K prices all over town on similar 2009 models in 3 months when they turn two years old.(or 15-16K on a 2008) The V6 is about 2mpg better overall and has 256 hp. It's basically as fast and nearly as agile as the current base model CTS. I found it to be very fast and nearly perfect. But the V8 sound... yeah, I'd sacrifice 2mpg for that... :shades:

carnaught · May 2010

Ford Focus or Taurus?

rayainsw · May 2010

"(mulls over the data)

The best car for you would be a white 2009 Pontiac G8.(the other colors are "meh" and most women want that pearlescent white) Good reliability, low price, handles very well. Overall a great deal for the money that unfortunately GM in its idiocy decided to stop selling."

About a year and a half ago, a 2009 G8 GT was judged
'the best car for me'.
I bought one - and remain very satisfied!
YMMV.
- Ray
Mulling the data looking for the next purchase...

slance66 · May 2010

Well every car on my list is a "luxury" brand and this is the entry level luxury form. I mentioned the Mazda only because it seems all around capable. The only GM I've ever owned is a 1970 Cutlass convertible. I have planned on continuing that streak. I find the CTS mostly unattractive, and it was unfortunate that Acura has been copying all the harsh angles. The new LaCrosse is good looking, but I'm just not that old. There is no way a G8 will ever get up my driveway in winter, and the styling? Maybe when I was 15. I'd get a CTS first for sure.

I feel like the default pick is a 3-series, but the run-flat tires don't appeal and the out of warranty service could be a problem. Maybe I should chance the Audi reliability with an A6. It does everything else well.

plekto · May 2010

The previous generation CTS is a lot less ugly than the new one and would be my pick, then. The pearl white and light blue are very nice and are aimed at female buyers. YOU might not like the CTS, but your wife probably will love it after a test drive after her old car she's been suffering with.

I know this as my mother is looking for the exact same type of car - and the CTS keeps staying on her top 3 list.

That's a nice car - lighter colors hide the angles a lot.

Look, the simple fact is that anything from BMW, Audi, or Mercedes will literally cost you thousands a year in repairs and maintainance once it's out of warranty. I'm talking about idiocy like $6000-$12000 transmissions and $500 for a sensor under the hood. You have been warned if you go down that path. And, it's not really luxury to put pleather in a car these days.(no typo - real leather starts typically in the 40-60K+ range) Simply put, if you can't afford it new, these will destroy you financially, used.

****
07 Lexus E350: FWD? Isn't this a Camry?
07 Lexus IS250 AWD: Slow? Backseat a bad joke?
Infiniti M35x: mileage is awful, worse than my SUV
Infiniti G35x: tempting, crappy mileage again.
Acura RL: wife hated it.
Acura TL: ??? New one is hideous.
Acua TSX: Too small...glorfied Civic.
****
Your original list immediately shrinks to this. Lexus is largely bland, souless junk. (two exceptions though - I'll get to them in a bit). Infiniti is great. The G37 Journey is fantastic. And, honestly, NONE of the AWD system in cars unless they are 100% full-time engaged actually work in bad weather. It's pure marketing and smoke and mirrors. So either get a 4x4 vehicle or something like a Subaru that has full-time 4 wheel drive. Or just get a 2wd vehicle and save money. note - this also gets you 2-5mpg back.

Interesting that you say that the new 2009 TSX is small - it's much larger than the older one and I thought it would be a perfect fit.

Anyways - the reason you consider domestic vehicles is because they depreciate quickly and yet are solidly engineered. I can guarantee that 95%+ of the people on this forum can't begin to reach the limits of a first generation CTS, let alone something like a G37.

So, the two Lexus exceptions you should look at:
The IS300 was perhaps the closest thing Japan ever made to a 3 series in terms of getting that small European sport sedan feel. They also are one of the least expensive luxury sport sedans ever made in terms of repairs and upkeep. I'd look at one - and actually drive it before you pass on it, because it is a great car to drive. I'd also say the same thing about a 2007 CTS - DRIVE it and then decide if it's bad or not.

The other one is a 2005 Lexus GS300. What makes this car special is that it is RWD and has a 3.0L inline 6 engine. As a result, it has great reliability, smoothness, power, and does it while getting good MPG. There's a reason BMW and uses inline 6 engines, and Lexus got it exactly right with both the IS300 and the GS300(same engine, btw, in both).

Why did they change? They worshiped HP and marketing more than building a perfect compromise. Then again, to be honest, both designs are dated compared to the CTS, which was a real game changer.

Other than that, you're looking at a Volvo or maybe a SUV. The reality is fo rused cars:

Japan - reliable, expensive to fix, costly to buy used.(depreciate too slowly)
GM - less reliable, inexpensive to fix, reasonably priced.(depreciate normally)
BMW/Mercedes/Audi - terrible reliability, insane to fix, reasonably priced.(depreciate like a rock)

tlong · May 2010

Disagree that BMW/Mercedes/Audi depreciate like a rock. They actually have really good residuals, as does VW. The driving experience and interiors of these cars raise their values even though the maintenance is high and reliability is highly variable. I've owned VW and Audi and I love the vehicles. I've had pretty good luck with reliability, but you are correct - if you have to pay for the repair it is not going to be pretty.

When I owned an Audi (not THAT bad for repairs and reliability) I wished for a very reliable Japanese car.

Then I got rid of it and bought an Acura TL. I now have a very reliable Japanese (brand) car. And I really long for the Audi!

Pick your poison; I am still searching for the European driving experience together with the Japanese reliability. Let me know when you find it.

plekto · May 2010

I am still searching for the European driving experience together with the Japanese reliability. Let me know when you find it.

One car fits that bill, a used IS300. I know, I drove everything, and the only *Japanese* car in your price range that feels like a European model is that one.

Now, domestics have that as well, though reliability is a little less. It's still worlds better than BMW or Audi, though. GM has spent a lot of time testing their cars in Germany lately, and the G8, CTS, and a few others show it. They feel properly "European" as well.

slance66 · May 2010

Yes this is exactly my problem! My prior car was a Volvo S60, which was a compromise that fell just short on both counts. Still it was an excellent car for 9 years. Now I'm in a bullet-proof Subaru Tribeca. Build quality is amazing, but I want a sedan again and better than the 23 highway MPG I get with the Tribeca.

As for the CTS mentioned previously, my wife hates them. She has a Lexus RX350, so she's very happy with that. She wants me to get a soul-less Lexus ES350, which she loves. I'm looking for a little more of the European driving experience than that, even a TL would be better. I'm looking at used because I pay cash for cars, never had a payment and I don't want one and because new cars are a rip-off, especially for someone with a 3 mile commute.

plekto · May 2010

Ah. Bit clearer now.

The G37 sedan is your likely best bet, then. It's big, luxurious(just get the Journey package with the wood trim and NO sport package), and handles far better than your Volvo did. It also costs the least per repair of any of the luxury models, so that's a plus. It's a much more refined car than the G35, which felt like a 4 door Z. IMO, it's critical to get the wood and interior premium packages with the Infiniti and TL/TSX and NOT to get the upgraded suspension or tires. The stock suspension is exactly firm enough and gives the car a slightly sedate feel on highway roads as opposed to jarring you to death for that extra 5% grip.

There is one more option as well, but that's only if you like manual transmissions. The Mercedes C class is actually a perfectly decent vehicle if you don't get a sunroof, nav, or anything that is electronic or a gadget that can break AND get manual as well. Of course, less than 5% came as base models like this(leather, wood trim, etc, but no electronics), so it can be hard to find the exact right one. Avoid automatics - the repair bill on one is reason enough to never get anything from Mercedes with an automatic.

The gem of course was a 2003-2005 C230K *sedan*. The replacement for it is a tremendous seller in Europe(now C300K, iirc). It gets a legitimate 35 mpg highway and is the "real deal". But only if you get manual. (the manual is easily as refined as the 3 series - almost video game easy)

roadburner · May 2010

A BMW won't be as inexpensive to run as a Honda, but they are nowhere near as expensive to maintain as the urban legends some like to parrot. Since 1983 I've always had one or more BMWs in the garage; I currently own a 1995 3 Series as well as a 2004 X3(and a 1975 2002- but that's a hobby car). The 3er has 121K miles on it and the X3 has 92K miles on the clock. Maintenance and repair costs for both are averaging @5 cents per mile(in the case of the X3, that number is calculated over the 42K miles after the free maintenance plan expired). Non-scheduled repairs on the 3er have consisted of a brake light switch, a thermostat, and the serpentine belt idler pullies. The X3 has required a passenger seat SRS sensor(replaced under warranty).
Of the cars you mentioned, I'd take an E39 530i- with the Sport Package, of course. It's a fantastic car; many enthusiasts(myself included) think that it is superior to its E60 successor.
As for non BMWs, I'd also take a look at the Mazdaspeed 6.
I find the Lexus models to be terribly unsafe;
if I drove one I'd almost certainly die of boredom...

slance66 · May 2010

Yeah G37 looks nice, but is beyond my "no car payments" price point, since it's a new model. I drove a G35x, and liked it except that what I'd like even more is a detuned model with 230-240HP and better mileage. The 4 door Z description is right on. Where is the balance? I agree on the wood in the Inifiniti and Acura, the metal looks too "techno" and cold, and agree on the suspension and tires. Anything less than an aspect ratio of 55 is way too hard to handle our broken New England pavement without punishing your kidneys.

I don't need Nav...I would opt for it in a Japanese car, as I expect it to be trouble free. I can't get a manual, as my wife can't drive them. So Auto it is, but I like the idea of de-electifying a MB. I really like the 2008+ C class, looks better and the prior version was awfully small in the back. Prices are still high though. Haven't checked the 03-05, but will look at specs. I had the same thought with BMW...a 525xi with no i-drive. I'd rather a nice cupholder than that knob. At least MBs have cupholders.

slance66 · May 2010

roadburner, if I had an indi BMW mechanic nearby, I'd probably put an E39 530i near the top of my list. I've seen several of them for sale, at good prices. Snow tires and wheels would be a definite expense however, for any RWD car. Even then I'd worry about my steep driveway, but a 5 series should have good weight distribution. Are there any known big expenses with those (I assume timing belt...what mileage?).

plekto · May 2010

The base G37 starts at almost exactly $30K new(cars direct has one for $30,200 after $1K in incentives!) So used run 4-8K less. The Journey with premium and maple wood accents(2010 only

) is $34,115(advertised street price). So 25K for a 1-2 year old example is possible to find. Yes, it surprised me as well - it seems like a steal at that price.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=278031393
This is a nice color combo - though it's not the Journey with wood trim and all of that. edit - these two are different shades of blue...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=272067925
Typical private party price. It's a stunning color in person and looks like a very expensive car. Doubly so since it's the new model. I know how women want to be seen in the new model if possible

Maybe it's not required, but it's certainly a feather in their cap if it's new bling vs old bling.

My brain also did a double-take at these prices. If you can wait until September when the 2011 models come out, a 2010 with that nice wood trim will be available in the 25K range.

edit - they have 0% and 2.9% financing now, so this fall, expect great incentives on a 2010. I can't find one, but the light interior and wood trim makes it feel much more luxury inside.

roadburner · May 2010

No US spec BMW engine has used a timing belt since late 1991. The cooling system is the only major issue. Most owners practice preventative maintenance and replace the water pump, thermostat, and radiator at @100K miles. My indie shop charged me @$1000 to do the work on my wife's 528i back in 2005(it's an easy afternoon DIY job but it was the middle of winter and my wife needed the car pronto). I bought a set of winter tires/wheels and changed them out myself in November and March; the car had no trouble in any sort of winter weather. There's a great E39 group non Yahoo as well as several websites dedicated to the E39. It is just a fantastic car. As a matter of fact, I'm considering picking up a low-mileage E39 M5 for a daily driver/track toy.

slance66 · May 2010

Some nice possibilities, especially at that price. Hopefully the new auto tames it a bit, but it shocks me that they don't make a version with better mileage at 250HP. They would sell loads of them (just like teh 328 outsells the 335 by a lot). The interior is much more M like. MPG is terrible, so I'd honestly probably just get an M35x instead, since it is plenty fast enough for me, and there are lots of used ones.

Need to drive a 2003 530i too..and probably a few others.

plekto · May 2010

Well, funny you should mention that... :P

The G25 is coming out this fall. Same car, smaller ~220hp engine. The base model should be in the $27-28K range(msrp at $29-30K would be my guess, invoice closer to $27K). Finding a program/dealer car a few months old for $25K should be possible. That is, if you can wait 5-6 months.

And, yes, the automatic tames it quite a bit. It drives more like a 5 series or E class than a Z. (that said, yes, it will make scenery go by very, very fast.)

There are pictures online but Nissan is keeping very mum about the car. My guess is that they want the competition to get theirs out first and under-cut them. I'd suspect that they are worried about the IS250 and the new Regal, though the Regal is out now, so we might expect a major announcement sometime soon.

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline
It's sold as the Skyline 250GT(same exact car as the G25, essentially) and is currently on sale in Japan.

The combined fuel economy for the car (testing comes from Singapore, of all places) lists it as roughly 24-25mpg combined, with a highway figure of close to 35mpg. One site in Japan lists it as getting 38mpg in a test, but that was on a track under controlled conditions.

And it should weigh about 3250lbs - about 300lbs lighter than the G37. This will make it a great car among people who like mountain roads, since the only complaint with the G37/Z370 is its weight is a bit more than you'd like for serious mountain roads.

G37 5.6 seconds.
G25 7.0 seconds. (that's about a second faster than the IS250 and Regal)

It's not stupidly fast, but it certainly isn't a slouch, either. Getting that type of performance out of a tiny engine like that is amazing, really.

If they pull it off, it'll be the equivalent of a hat-trick. Low cost, sport/luxury, and economy car mpg. All while NOT being slow.

slance66 · May 2010

Interesting...looks like they dropped a beefed up version of the 2.5L four from the Altima in? Or is this a smaller displacement V6?. I really like the small 6 in the IS250 and the efficient 6 in the 328. I can't see paying premium prices for anything with a 4, although I've considered it with the Audi/VW 2.0T. I wonder where the weight drop comes from? 7 sec 0-60 is not bad at all.

Fortunately, I do have time...no hurry really.

***
Just read a few reports. No turbo, 2.5L V6, specs around the 220 mentioned. Of course some writers asked "why move downmarket". Do these writers live in the real world? Not long ago, 220 was pretty powerful...300 was reserved for rarified company. This is a brilliant move.

plekto · May 2010

Yeah, 220HP is plenty, as it comes close to the 15lbs/HP make-or-break sweet spot. (14.7 actually) For reference, that is 3000lbs and 200HP plus at least 200lb-ft of torque.(basically a 6 cylinder engine, preferably as small and quick to rev as possible)

The IS300 was very close to this magic ratio. BMW has tried to maintain this as well, though the recent 3 series' are too fat and suffers greatly in handling compared to the E36, which is still the best choice - it's the last "classic" BMW worth getting. But, at 10 year old, now, it's a dicey proposition due to maintainance.

That's why the 1 series is so popular - lighter and quicker on its feet for a fairly reasonable price. It eeks just under the 3000lb limit/ proper ratio. Very fun to drive as a result.

The problem with the Regal and IS250 is that they are in the 3500-3600lb range and lose their edge. Not *quite* fast enough, not *quite* agile enough. Sure, the bigger versions (IS350 and Regal GS when it comes out) are stomping, wild beasts, but they lose that small sport sedan feel,. And they cost a lot more money.

qbrozen · May 2010

I'd be surprised if they could cut 300 lbs compared to the G37. I mean, we're talking same platform. Changing just the engine wouldn't save that much. Unless they are going to use lightened body panels, which would add cost, I don't see it happening.

markcincinnati · May 2010

. . .why not look at a new Genesis (with the 6) sedan. A friend of mine bought one and he says the deals on them are "impressive." He had come from a 5 series Bimmer, the last in a string of many, too. . . . Far as I can tell, although he is hardly rich beyond the dreams of avarice, he bought because of the deal compared to the deal plus the content differences on yet another RWD 5 series, not because he no longer could afford a 5 series.

I thought, at the time, he was crazy -- now, not so much. And, before you think I am crazy, my current Audi (#29 in my life -- including the ones that have been mine or my wife's) is an '09 A4 Prestige with the 19" sport package and ADS on it -- I live in Cincinnati (that is we have about a 70 30 ratio of road to potholes); all that lovely sportiness I paid for is virtually useless. I play dodgem' with my car -- and including the factory originals have now had 12 tires (4 OE plus 8 replacements) due to tire damage. I love the sport quotient of these great German cars (and probably the Japanese and American cars of the same ilk) -- but frankly, until the US, Ohio, Hamilton County, Cincinnati infrastructure reaches a road to pothole ratio of 95 5, my cars sport/lux quotient is great to look at but virtually impossible to enjoy (much.) If I could get an AWD Genesis, I'd probably seriously consider it -- or a tank with rubber treads.

Perhaps a new or demo or leftover Genesis (or lightly used one) is out there somewhere at an even better price. The warranty is impressive and the car certainly seems to push many of your buttons. :shades:

kevinc5 · May 2010

I'm getting bored with looking at all the usual suspects in the family car line...Altima, Camry, Accord, etc. C300 too small. IS 250 same. Thought I'd move up a bit and test drove a 2007 G35. 38,000 miles, dealer asking $25,800. Nice ride. Miles a little high, price a little high. But do I need 300+ HP for my 2d car??? Might get 18 MPG on premium fuel in the city?? I'll probably pass...though I'd be a Happy Boy in a G25. What to do? What to do?

slance66 · May 2010

You're not crazy. I was just looking at the Genesis. Power is there with the 3.8, mileage is better than most, and honestly, is a damned handsome car when you see it on the street or in a parking lot. My biggest concern personnally is the size...I look at an A6 and think, damn, that's a bit bigger than "mid-size". Then comparing the the Genesis to the A6, it is longer, but not as wide. It is longer and wder than a 5 series, M35 or MB E350. I just don't know if I want to drive anything that big (length in particular). Lack of AWD is a drawback.

qbrozen · May 2010

Lack of AWD is a drawback.

Only if you are offroading or deal with 6 months of snow, IMHO.

I made it through 3 blizzards this year with a '92 Benz with snow tires. No traction control. No stability control. Just the snow tires and an antiquated ABS. Not one iota of drama driving in horrible conditions (had to take 9-month pregnant wife to the hospital in the middle of the night after 2 feet had fallen and no signs of letting up). I'm a convert. I am no longer concerned about having a RWD daily driver. (although that is all I grew up with, so go figure why I, and so many other people, have forgotten we survived it then, so we'll survive it now.)

slance66 · May 2010

On AWD, I look at it this way: I have a 20 plus degree grade in my driveway, so hill climbing is critical. RWD will suffer compared to AWD at hill climbing, even with snow tires (it will better AWD in stopping and turning with snows vs all weather). Then there is the cost of buying wheels and tires, and paying for the changeover and storage (I have no room for 4 sets of wheels/tires). The cost probably evens out, but AWD is just more convenient, and you don't have the occasional early or late snow, or the unusually warm winter days that chew up your snow tires. So I could give it a try...hell I grew up driving a 77 Cougar in the snow...no ABS, no traction control, and horrifically bad front/rear weight balance. Of course it couldn't climb our snow covered driveway then either.

plekto · May 2010

If you have a 20 degree driveway, you need 4 wheel drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0&feature=related
The problem is that the systems try to out-think the situation and react too slowly. So they get stuck and actually in some cases literally stop turning ANY of the wheels despite the throttle being on full. 6:15 is the part to watch - a dirt hill climb.

What appears to happen with most of them is that the system transfers enough power to the rear wheels to merely keep the vehicle's place stable on the hill and does the climbing with the fronts alone. This works to a point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xJusLJQbv8
Ouch.

Trust me - almost all of the drive systems that transfer power back and forth fail like this and are only good for getting unstuck from a flat snowy driveway or the side of a road. Note - Subaru and a few others are full-time AWD and do work. Part-time is rubbish, so don't bother wasting your money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXOPcwMnC6c&feature=related
4wd. Just pay the extra money if you really need snow performance.

Snow tires are much more critical, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P03wqClnq-0&feature=related
A nice video I found showing how AWD isn't going to save you while snow tires likely will. There are 6 in the series - it's very informative, if a bit repetitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXuhfwY74b8
A bit more funny

slance66 · May 2010

Here's my experience so far:

2000 Volvo v70 XC: usually climbed the driveway with few problems
2001 FWD S60: had major problems, even with just light snow. However, I when put Nokian WR all season/snow tires on, and it climbed as well as the XC did.
07 Lexus RX350: Climbs pretty well, similar to the Volvo.
07 Subaru Tribeca: Climbs ok, but slides more than the Lexus or Volvo XC, and is much worse going down. Why? 255-55-18 tires act like snow saucers. Stupid choice by Subaru.

So I'm reluctant to move away from AWD, and the modern electronic systems do work better, in my experience, than the YouTube videos show, especially when good AS tires are used. In fact, the superior Subaru system proves less important than the tires in most respects.

qbrozen · May 2010

the superior Subaru system proves less important than the tires in most respects

That's really the key point. If someone NEEDS awd/4wd, then they also need to be concerned about what tires are on there. It is the most important part of the car.

kdshapiro · June 2010

I made it through 3 blizzards this year

I think "made" is the operative word. I used to live near Buffalo and owned a car without ABS or AWD. I "made" it through horrible winters. My RWD did have snows.

My Subie with good all-seasons, ABS and AWD, is a much better driver than my old RWD.

I also "made" it through several winters in my BMW with just all-seasons.

A number of houses in my development have 20 degree inclines. I have pictures during the winter where cars were parked at the bottom of the driveway. For those houses the trucks and AWD models were the ones that made it up the driveway.

Until I move to San Diego (or Phoenix), AWD will stay on every vehicle in the family.

kdshapiro · June 2010

We had a nasty, nasty winter. My Subie with all seasons did just fine. The only reason I couldn't drive it out of the garage is the the snow on the ground was above the front grill, I wasn't even going to attempt it.

In my opinion, unless you are in a climate where the majority of winter you deal with huge snowfalls and unplowed roads almost any AWD system will be fine. If I had to deal with huge snowfalls and unplowed roads on a regular basis, I would get a big truck with AWD and outfit it with snow tires.

slance66 · June 2010

Well the search continues. I drove a 2008 Lexus IS250 AWD. Not fast, but not a dog either. Cockpit was nice, if slightly tight. I was very happy with the balance between handling and ride on out broken pavement. It's just quite small in back, and never inexpensive. Wondering if I can suffer FWD again with an ES, which would be bigger and faster...without the handling.

Next stop, a 2007 328xi. Interior had many loose pieces and was a grade, no two grades below the Lexus. Hell the interior in my Tribeca was a grade better. Ergonomics however, were perfect...armrest exactly where it is needed (Subie's is 6 inches too low). Seat was fine. More room in back than the IS. Now the drive...there wasn't one. Battery was dead and couldn't be jumped. Yes, BMW is off to a glorious start. Don't even ask about cupholders. This same place has a 525xi and a MB E350 4matic. I'll give those a go instead.

kdshapiro · June 2010

I had a BMW, and over the years I've driven almost every model extensively except the M variations and Alpina. They drive like they are on rails. (As an aside I didn't have any issues with my BMW)

I was just in an 2010 ES and I have to say the interior is nicer than a CAMRY but was just so so to my tastes, a little classy not really luxurious, but defintely upscale. Yes, it has all of the bells and whistles and drove very nice, buy you pay for the Lexus(BMW) experience. As an aside I'm a fan of BMW interiors, they have exactly what it takes to drive the car and nothing else, I even like idrive.

A friend has the IS250 and I've ridden in the car many times and I agree with your assessment.

I'm not one to get a pre-owned/used vehicle. I know there are people on this board who go to sites to get in my opinion unrealistic pricing on certain vehicles. I know of nobody who has ever gotten a car from one of these sites, so it's not something I would ever try.

qbrozen · June 2010

Until I move to San Diego (or Phoenix), AWD will stay on every vehicle in the family.

The weight and fuel penalty for EVERY car year round for just a few days when its needed? Well, to each his own.

Next winter, I'll be trying out FWD with snows (my luxury performance V70... to stay on topic

). We'll see how that goes. Considering my S70 with good all seasons was one of the best winter cars I ever had, I have no doubt I'll be just fine.

And, yes, I'll be hoping to "make" it through. Not sure what else I could ask for. Winning a winter rallycross? Summitting the highest peak in NJ in record time? Nah. Making it through is all I want. Just like I did with my Subaru, G35X, XC90, Pilot, Pacifica, and probably a couple of other AWD/4wd vehicles I'm forgetting.

mz6greyghost · June 2010

The weight and fuel penalty for EVERY car year round for just a few days when its needed? Well, to each his own.

Quoted for agreement.

As someone that's lived in Upstate NY (Syracuse), I've dealt with all kinds of weather, including snow that falls from 4-6 inches PER HOUR. I've also driven all kinds of vehicles, from subcompact cars to pick-ups and full-size vans. No matter which wheels are driven, winter tires are BY FAR the best choice. I've had better control in 4 inches of snow with a 2WD pick-up with winter tires than an AWD compact with all-seasons.

Don't forget the weight penalty (and worse fuel economy) that AWD adds compared to a similar FWD/RWD vehicle, the better chances of driveline/mechanical issues/failure, and the tighter tolerances in terms of tires (which adds to more out-of-pocket $$$$$).

AWD is by no means a necessity in the snow belt, as long as you know how to drive in the snow, and use a set of proper winter tires that also help to STOP and STEER, not just accelerate.

And, yes, I'll be hoping to "make" it through. Not sure what else I could ask for. Winning a winter rallycross? Summitting the highest peak in NJ in record time?

Yeah, those "rally" drivers are usually the SUVs and/or Subaru drivers that fly by me in a snowstorm, only for me to pass them when they're buried in a ditch and need a wrecker to pull them out.

OT: Did anyone notice how the 2008 G35 is still shown on the right when it's now two (almost three) years old and superseded?

xeye · June 2010

I had a 2007 BMW 335xi with ContiProContact tires in some nasty Boston winters. Not once did I ever get stuck even when the town plowed snow right up against the parked car. The car drove like a dream, never an issue either summer or winter for almost 30,000 miles on the OEM tires.

I now have a 2011 335i xDrive with new ContiProContacts and have every expectation of no issues. The BMW interior is exactly what I want, the exterior looks better than any other compact 4-dr sedan, I have 300 hp and 300 lb-ft of stump-pulling power.

I'll meet you at the bottom of the hill, and I'll call you and tell you how luxurious the ride up the peak was, and I'll call you a tow truck if you need one.

fedlawman · June 2010

I can see it now...

Your driving to work during a blizzard in your $50,000 335xi wearing steel wheels and Nokians. You're a fearless mountain goat!

So there you are, sitting at an intersection casually sipping your non-fat latte when you catch movement in your peripheral vision. You turn your head just in time to see a Cadillac Escalade with 24" all-season tires careening towards you sideways. You make eye contact with the other driver just as...BAM!

If I lived someplace that had long winters and got a lot of snow, I wouldn't buy an AWD sport sedan and winter wheels and tires. I'd buy the RWD version and with the money I saved, I'd pick up a 10 year-old Jeep Cherokee or Nissan Xterra.

roadburner · June 2010

" I'd buy the RWD version and with the money I saved, I'd pick up a 10 year-old Jeep Cherokee or Nissan Xterra."

Funny you should mention that; I have a 1999 Wrangler in my garage...

slance66 · June 2010

The spare 4WD Jeep is a nice idea, unles you need garage space, and you live in MA, where insurance is brutal. I drive 7 miles round trip to work....have tow cars to accomplish that is just not a good idea. Can a RWD car with snows climb my driveway? Maybe, maybe not. I have every confidence that it would be fine on the roads...better than fine really. So I'm prepared to pay the penalty of AWD, or suffer a FWD like a Maxima or ES350. Alternatively, I can keep my Tribeca, which has very good steering, a decent interior, bulletproof reliability and no problems in the snow. It's starting to make the most sense.

xeye · June 2010

Your driving to work during a blizzard in your $50,000 335xi wearing steel wheels and Nokians. You're a fearless mountain goat!

So there you are, sitting at an intersection casually sipping your non-fat latte when you catch movement in your peripheral vision. You turn your head just in time to see a Cadillac Escalade with 24" all-season tires careening towards you sideways. You make eye contact with the other driver just as...BAM!

1. I don't change out the wheels or tires in the winter. I didn't for 4 winters in the '07 335xi and never damaged them in the winter. I did manage to give both front wheels road-rash when trying to park too close to the side curb to avoid door dings. The ContiProContacts have never failed me.

2. With Oyster leather in the '11 335i, I don't drink or eat anything inside the car. No one does under any conditions.

3. The scenario you describe is a recurring fear with the lunatic drivers in the Boston area. I drive very defensively here.

I would normally agree with you and go for a beater with AWD and great off-road tires for the winter, but like a recent post, a third vehicle is completely impractical for a number of reasons.

I have a radar detector but what I really need is a Moron Detector for those idiots in SUVs who have no concept of how much momentum a 2.5 ton truck carries and how hard it is to slow it down under the best of conditions. Until someone invents such a device, I keep my distance and my eyes wide open.

xeye

alltorque · June 2010

If I lived someplace that had long winters and got a lot of snow, I wouldn't buy an AWD sport sedan and winter wheels and tires. I'd buy the RWD version and with the money I saved, I'd pick up a 10 year-old Jeep Cherokee or Nissan Xterra.

Now there speaks a practical fellow. Get the right tools for the job and keep life, (relatively), simple. Here in the UK, 4WD is more to do with style and supposed, (or wished-for), status. Very few ever venture off smooth tarmac and our winters are classed as "severe" with 4" of snow for a week. My trusty Volvo S60 with just FWD and all-seasons does just fine. If I think it won't - I don't go. However, an old diesel Land Rover might be fun - if you like teeth-shattering vibration and no heat.

roadburner · June 2010

However, an old diesel Land Rover might be fun - if you like teeth-shattering vibration and no heat.

The only 4X4 I'd rather have than my Wrangler is a Defender 90, but they cost 2-3 times more than my Jeep...

plekto · June 2010

Shoot, why not just go for it and get a Unimog? :P

Now, that's teeth-shattering.(though being able to see over delivery vans and small buses is a huge plus)

kdshapiro · June 2010

The weight and fuel penalty for EVERY car year round for just a few days when its needed? Well, to each his own

Correct. You mentioned NJ, I understand there were some huge snowstorms there last winter. No secret I have a Subie, and yes, yes, yes to your comment.

murphydog · June 2010

xeye - your comment got me thinking - I don't know who is worse, the over confident winter driver in the big car / SUV OR the person who is so clueless they put one tire chain on the front wheel and one on the back wheel of their Accord cuz they don't know if it is FWD or RWD...sadly enough I saw that a few winters back here...

jspagna1 · June 2010

Winter tires make a world of difference. I drive a 4Runner with AT tires and we also own a 2010 Acura TL SHAWD and a 2003 Maxima and I have dedicated snow tires for both vehicles and those cars are better in the snow than my 4Runner any day of the week.

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