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Regarding the turbolag in the A4, I think it is not the AWD but is the lousy CVT Audi puts in the FWD A4. The CVT improves gas mileage but acceleration suffers. (I liked the CVT in the Maxima.) I test drove several 2010 A4s with and without the CVT and there is a huge difference between the CVT and the tiptronic in the Quattro - the tip it is much smoother and seems faster. I had a 2007 Quattro A4, which had a little more turbo lag - the 2010 is much smoother and almost eliminates turbo lag. That said, turbo lag ain't all bad because it means you get turbo acceleration. As fun and fast as my 328iT is, it does not give the whoosh that the torque in the A4 gives in 40-60 mph.
I am an odd creature in that I love Audis (and Swedish Saabs) but don't own one. I own a bimmer because it is quieter and I have a hearing problem. Both are vunderval! cars. The A4 is prettier, with more luxurious leather and a smoother, more refined driving feel. The 328 handles better, is faster throughout the mph range and is more reliable. The 335, of course, is faster but much more expensive and has a lousy repair record. Regarding size, the 328i (sedan) is a bit cramped but the iT (sportwagon) has about the same amount of interior space as the A4 sedan and wagon.
Or, how about a used 528 or 535? If you get a 2009, you get 4 years of warranty - 2 years of original warranty and two years of CPO. You eliminate those first two years of huge depreciation if you bargain well. Cars.com has a 2009 in L.A. with 13k for $36,000. You could get it for $31,000.
Other thoughts - try the new Volvo S60. It looks very cool and is very fast. New Jags are gorgeous.
Dap, You are right: The G37 IS cramped. The C300 IS cramped. The IS250 IS like a 70s band - supercramped. The TL DOES have a nasty beak and is sorta ponderous. The TSX IS downscale from these cars but still a cool rig. The CTS - despite what Pletko thinks - IS an American car.
But yeah, it is made by a U.S. based company.
Ahh, that explains it - I'll be going back to try the Quattro soon. I really liked the Audi interior - truly a pleasure. My wife seems to think we need a bigger back seat but that is a minor consideration for me - it would get little use.
I'll really have to give the CPO 535 some thought - I really hadn't considered buying a used car but I can see it has its advantages.
The CTS isn't a player for me, though I'm sure it's a nice car.
Autotrader has one 2009 M35 AWD with 15K miles for $39K
2008 M35 with 31K miles for $32K
Both in orange county (ZIP 62626)
Another car to try out - and this is a bit of an oddball, but bear with me - is the RX8. It fits 4 adults just fine, and the oddly shaped rear doors aside, it's basically a 4 door sport sedan. Fantastic ride, though - just a tiny bit slower than a Boxster and handles as well, too.
The last would be either a Saab or Volvo.
Other than that, well, you're stuck with crossovers and SUVs. It honestly sounds like your wife wants a RAV4 or similar and you want a 3 series and you're stuck in a no-man's land of trying to find the perfect compromise. Except that compromises by nature aren't perfect and never will be.
P.S. If you want Audi at less money, just get the VW version. But expect to pay a lot in repairs and upkeep for both. I've never known anyone who has had either brand who hasn't had it chew at their pocketbook to keep running.
Pletko: Ah, you need to try a Granny Smith.
Poster: I don't want Cocoa Puffs.
Pletko: Have you considered new and improved Cocoa Puffs?
Poster: I am not considering opiates.
Pletko: You really should consider Heroin. It is made for non opiate likers.
Dude, Give it a rest. Can't you respect ther people's taste and requests? Kirstie assures me there are no car salesmen here. But you seem like one. Do you really want to give that impression?
Also, Dap says he thinks some of those cars are too cramped and you mention the RX8. Buwahahahaha. That is a good one Pletko. Keep em coming.
Another clever joke by you: the VW CC is the VW version of the Audi A4. No. It's not. Not anymore than a Chevy Malibu is a CTS. Different platform. Different engine configuration and tuning. Different suspension. Different AWD system. Different transmission. Different interior. They do have one thin in common: both get average reliability from CR.
And I don't really believe you have any friends that don't own GMs. "Hey Lou, seen the new Aveo?" "Hey Lou, thought about a G8?" "Hey, Lou, you should consider a CTS." "Hey, Lou, wait up. Hey Lou!
Lou?"
I'm having some series issues selecting my next vehicle. I'll need a new ride when I turn my G35XS in end of Dec. I'm toying with the 335XI, manual tranny, Nav, M sport package, etc. and an Audi S4. I couldn't do another G sedan even with the upgrades from 08' to 11' the car is...well...'nice'.
The used 09' 5 series is an interesting option...hmmm.
Oh, wait - I forgot one - the Lexus G. That's about all that's left.
As for the VW/Audi comparison, it depends which models. He obviously thinks that the A4 is too small, so the next size larger, well there IS a VW that uses the A3 platform but is between the A4 and A6 in size (ie - the Passat) While they aren't literal clones, they share so much DNA and parts they might as well be fighting over who gets the china in the estate sale.
I'd certainly not pay Audi prices without looking at the Passat first.
Likewise, I don't consider VW, Mazda, or Mitsubishi as acceptable alternatives. And while my wife prefers a larger back seat than an A4, I don't think that confines us to Rav 4's or SUV-type options.
To get back to the discussion, at this point my best bets seem to be a G37, M37, BMW 5 series (new or more likely CPO) - still thinking (and thanks to all!)
You're likely to get much more bang for your buck by going used on any of the 3 vehicles at the top of your list. I'd look for off-lease / CPO vehicles. In my experience, leased vehicles are often more well-looked after if for no other reason than the person leasing fears extra charges at lease turn-in. I bought a G35 several years ago off-lease and it had taken a pretty significant depreciation hit.... I've beat the tar out of it mileage-wise and mechanically it's still perfect. YMMV.
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The cars you are looking at are fine, really - I happen to like the CTS. But that's literally the ONLY GM or Ford car that I can stand - I'm certainly no fan and would buy a Mercedes or similar in a heartbeat over anything else they make. I've owned a (used) S Class in the past and the Domestics have a LONG way to reach that level. For the first three months I'd constantly be amazed just getitng into it and playing with the options. - there was a literal chasm between my previous Buick and the Mercedes. It died - sad story there. Then I got a 4x4
Two other cars to look at would be the E class and the Lexus GS350. These depreciate quickly and are two excellent "hidden gems" in the CPO world. A 2007 GS 350 should run you about 25K and a 2009 E class (built on the new more reliable C class platform, but stretched) should be about 30K.
Optimally, 4 years old is the sweet spot between age and pricing, but the E class came out in 2009. The 2008 and earlier models were a disaster to keep running by comparison.
IIRC, Mercedes also has new car financing (1.9%) and leases on CPO models from time to time.(yes, lease a CPO used car - C class payments on a E class) Lexus might have changed to this as well in reaction - You'd have to check for specifics.
edit - they DO have 1.9% for 48 months on CPO C class models right now - it's going to be hard to beat that price-wise. The new/better body style started in 2008. IMO, the rear seats in the new C class are roomier than in the G37. The panoramic sunroof is incredible as well.
I wouldn't lease, but I can understand why some people do.
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BMW Financial Services and Infiniti Financial Services both offer leases on CPO vehicles, just like new ones. BMW limits the lease term to no more than 48 months on vehicles that aren't current model year, but that's the only major difference that I am aware of. The lease payments should also be quite a bit lower than new without the hit of first year depreciation!
BMW CPO warranty extends the New Car Full Vehicle 4-year/50k warranty to 6-years/100k miles. Infiniti also extends the warranty to 6yrs/100k.
If you decide to check out Infiniti CPO offerings, I still find the previous-generation (2006-2010) M35/M45 very appealing....especially the M35 Sport model!
But leasing a CPO is an interesting idea - no depreciation and you get frequency of change
BTW, I think the BMW CPO is not quite as good as you have it described. When the new car warranty ends the CPO begins. It is consecutive, not cumulative. So, if you have 50k and 2years when you buy a CPO car, the new car warranty ended at 50k. So you only get 2 years or 40k miles of CPO - whatever is less.
I think you pay $50 when you take it in for CPO repairs. Also, the CPO also excludes a few items that are covered in the new car. Still, for $22,000 off the MRSP of a car with no model changes, I will take it.
Several of my friends got G35 and FX34/45 with no extended warranty or CPO, they seem to be doing fine.
CPO is a way to go for European cars. The repair could be expensive.
I had 3 Saabs. They had good engines but got minor issues. The 9-5 Aero was the best and I still missed it. I wanted to try something different.
I tried the G35x but was not impressed. I was looking at Infiniti EX/FX and BMW 530xi but ended up with a 335xi (love the twin turbo and I didn't need backseats).
I traded one Saab for a V6 A4 and another Saab for a 335xi (I need AWD for my daily commute to Milwaukee from Chicago).Except the 1st Saab, I bought them all as used (CPO).
No big issues with them. The A4 seems to be better. VW is still unreliable but Audi seems to be ok now (mine has zero problem). I test drove the Passat. Audi and VW are different!
I like the interior and the image of of Audi (good for road trip) but I like the power and handling of the Bimmer. If the new S4 is really as good as the 335i, I will definitely get the S4.
If backseats is a MUST, I would pick 535i.
New BMW leases include free maintenance... You can really lock in your costs... Tires, gas, insurance... that's it for three years..
If you think that isn't valuable, call your local Infiniti or Lexus dealer and tell the you are bringing in your G or IS for the 30K service and ask for a quote... :surprise:
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Your indirectly paying for that "FREE" maintenance by the Bimmer's higher price premium and lease.
From a "deal" standpoint, leasing a CPO car doesn't make sense. For the simple reason that no 2 CPO cars are alike. The dealer can set their own lease rates & money factors. It isn't like leasing new where there is a November program and the lease rate on every 2011 335i w/ X drive sedan is 0.XXXX or residual is XX%. There are just way too many variables that the dealer controls that you as a consumer don't have access to. Even the asking prices are arbitrary. You could negotiate a fantastic deal of $5K off, and then they jack up the lease rate and say the bank set a low residual.
Free Scheduled maintenance is a crucial sticking point that makes BMW stand out. Yes were are all smart enough that it is built into the car and it isn't technically free. But however they do it, it makes sense. Now many of us use indie mechanics once the warranty period is up, but to prove BMWs practice is valid, you have to assume that people are taking their cars to the dealer for service.
BMWs 1st service comes at around 15K miles. Gets you an oil change.
Now my wife has a 2010 Acura TSX. I had the oil & filter changed at 4500 miles (Synthetic), even though the service advisor begged me to wait until the light goes one (10,000 miles). I think it was a little over $100 with a tire rotation.
Service #2 which is technically the 1st service is what I did at 4500 miles $100+.I did at 10,000 miles.
Service #3 I did at 20,000 miles and I specifically instructed them to only do synthetic oil,filter, & tire roatation.
Many of Acura's "services" they offer are nothing more than visual checks of belts, hoses,lights... along with the oil change & tire rotation probably cost a few hundred dollars.
BMW's 2nd service is an Inspection I service which is a major service at around 30K miles.
Sometime after the 2nd service you are going to need brakes and rotors on your 3 series. At least the fronts. My parents had to have this done on my Mom's '08 328xi also right after the odometer said 50K and it was $700.
They also recently had an Inspection II done (out of warranty) and the car needed rear brakes - $900.
No it it almost isn't fair to compare the TSX to the rest of these because it is by far the least expensive car in the segment.
But take your run of the mill car that's sitting on the luxury dealer's lot which in CT/NY/NJ means AWD, Automatic, Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, NAV and the sticker prices(328i w/ X Drive, C300 SPort 4 Matic, IS250 AWD, CTS4, A4 2.0T Premium, G37X) can't be that far off, so you definitely have to factor in free maintenance into the equasion. The MSRPs on ALL these cars are north of $40,000.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I've only bought new since my 16th birthday, but I'd strongly consider a used 3 or G as my next ride. Payments on a high $20K car are a lot easier to swallow than on a $40- $50K car.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Only disadvantage to CPO is that most, not all, but most of the CPO's I see on the luxury lots you have no idea how the previous owner took care of it (what kind of oil did they use, tires rotated properly, cleaned interior regularly, etc). I've found most do nothing to keep up the leather and vinyl interiors and they look like utter crap at only the 2 or 3 year mark when they are back on the lot as CPO and then you have a pain in the butt time trying to undo the neglect the first owner did. The stealers did little as possible to really clean up the car for used sales again, especially on the interior.
But from a value proportion, money, and just to be in a luxury name, I can definitely see the attraction to CPO!
I would dissagree with you on your CPO diss- the CPO report includes past maintenance -(btw is this the same lot you talked about hyundai, in the TL chat?) and if a car is certified i would wonder why bmw/audi/ infiniti would sell a car that was not properly cared for..certainly with whats going on with toyota and if there is data to say the car was not up to certification-- you think they want bad press for including a car that has not infact passed the 150 pt inspection. Your talking about a 3 year old car that has less then 40k miles on it-- how bad is the leather?? does it have rips?? how they cared for it--come on -- if it has a rip the dealer fixes it. I have no idea where you are looking at CPO's (the same hyundai dealer ?)-- but you should look to see what reports on each car are avail before making such comments on "MOST" CPOS..
Value yes -- lux name yes-- attraction yes.-- :shades:
I couldn't agree more, my 2004 X3 CPO(purchased in 12/05) looks like crap- especially after six years and 103,000 miles:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I hate to break it to you but CPO does not include past maintenance; I've returned plenty of lease vehicles from different manufacturers over the years who did not even care to see my maintenance records so there is no possible way for them to know, when they act like that at lease return, how the car was maintained and I'm sorry, but I've seen plenty of 2, 3, and 4 year old CPO cars out on the stealers lots for sale with really bad interior care from the previous owners; some of the stealers do the bare minimum when they put the cars back out on the used car lot for sale, you want to know why "ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS MAKING MONEY, THEY ARE A BUSINESS"
I'm talking about some scratches, rips, severe wrinkles, discoloring, etc on the leather/vinyl; this is noticeable, at least to a car guy like me who takes excessive care of his vehicles, maybe not to the common folk but to me; some of the interiors look like the leather is 7, 8, or 9 years old when its really only 3 or 4. You can tell when looking at a vinyl or leather interior whether its been kept up or not.
Your naive if you think that all the stealers really do all that they say they do in their marketing ploys for CPO. They just make sure things work in the car and that nothing is broken, and they give the car a wash and wax before putting it out on the lot.
And if you read what I said carefully, which you rarely do, I said the CPO's I HAVE SEEN, most had interiors that were very worn and not kept up!
Was that the condition you got her in or is that after years of your tender love and care?
The picture was taken last summer, but it looked the same when we bought it; most of our friends thought it was a brand new truck.
On BMW vehicles you can verify the dealer service/repair history if you have the last seven digits of the VIN; right now I'm looking at a 37K mile 2007 CPO 335i and I know where, when, and what services have been performed.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I hate to break it to YOU but CPO does include a copy of past maintenance -- give me you fax number i will send you a copy of the 07 crv cpo sheet that i asked for before i signed..i'm sure you returned a bunch of cars, and they were prob in good shape but computers now track maintaince. If your buying a 2-3 year old car you should expect a couple of scratches and minor wear-- its a used car..hello.
I know they are in it to make money--But they come with a warranttee and the check list of things done with the car to make it a CPO-- including tires, breaks, whatever and if something is needed it should be fixed--and if the consumer is smart they can have the car checked out before its bought.
Your right i sometimes zoneout when reading your longposts i'm sorry could be my OCD..but you have to admit your statements about all the cars you have seen i mean its pretty funny how you always have a story to discount the previous poster... all those cars with bad leather.. oh man
Here is your proof for ALG residual value since you have to be such a pestering noob about it! It will be interesting to see how you twist and turn this link and its information to suit your own purpose.
https://www.alg.com/ResidualValueAwards
Infiniti actually took the top spot from Acura who has had it for the last two years. Good for Infiniti.
Seriously, what is wrong with you that you don't get what I'm saying. I have leased many luxury vehicles and some of the makes don't even collect maintenance records. I didn't have the stuff done at the dealership. Even if a computer records it, there is no way for the computer to know what grade, type, content of fluids and/or gas someone is putting in.
I do have to say, that not all CPO's are equal. I know Acura and BMW have some stringent CPO standards compared to the rest. When I turned my Acura in, they wanted all my maintenance records which I happily gave them. Others, were much more lazy and didn't really care about the maintenance of the vehicle as long as it passed the return inspection and nothing was severely damaged (Infiniti, MB, and Caddy were the biggest culprits of this).
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black, you complain about the fact that I supposedly say ALL vehicles, when in actuality I say either MOST or SOME, which is not all and then you can't leave Acura owners alone b/c of your sour experience with them and that ALL their products aren't great and you can't figure out why people are choosing them over others. And again, I said MOST of the one's I SEE! Does that mean all vehicles, no, so stop putting words in my mouth and twisting around what I say!
I'm talking about the CPO vehicles I've seen on all the luxury manufacturers lot that have really worn, faded, sometimes severely wrinkled interiors. There are some that are not like that. I never implied that all CPO's are like that or said that. But there are some that dealers think are acceptable, when they really aren't and still put them out on the lot without doing a lot of cleaning and reconditioning to them.
I state facts man, unlike you, who sole goal on edmunds is to argue with people. :sick:
How do you know that some Cpos are more stringent then others? does that include MOST, SOME or ALL of the Lux manufactures?
My past comments on acura are my comments- but those comments were backed with comparision tests -and performance numbers-thus having proof-- but I still hate the current styling, no doubt and i think the car is far behind in performance but ahead on technology.
you must have a lot of time looking at all those CPO on the Lux lots-- you happen to see a 2008-2009 335xi 6 speed with sport, nav andd premium package? how did the seats look?
Don't like someone else's posts? Skip 'em.
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2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
https://www.alg.com/DepreciationRatings
...as long as you value performance over ugly. And I'm a current TL owner (2005, though :P )
and the materials used in the vehicle are not that great. They do not wear gracefully.
I have a 2008 babied MDX with 20K miles (bought new in sept 08) but the condition of drivers side leather seats is not that great. Been in new TL (service loaner) and was not impressed
My 2000 Infiniti has aged more gracefully then 2008 Acura.
Having said that its best bang for buck...if thats what you are looking for.
I would look at Infiniti G or may be M.
I just built a handful of these ELLPS during my lunch break. I configured each vehicle to the level of equipment on the TL SH AWD. Even at this price point, value has to come into play somehow. All cars have manual transmissions as I'd get.
Acura TL SH AWD - $43,445
Infiniti G37S - $40,325
Audi A4 2.0T Prestige (Metallic Paint, S Line Sport Package) $45,250
BMW 328i $45,150
(Premium, Sport, Cold Weather, iPod, Sirius, Xenon, HK, Nav, Met Paint)
BMW 335i $52,200
(Cold Weather, Premium, Sport, Nav, HK, iPod, Sirius, Met Paint)
The TL is deinitely the biggest car. So if you want performance, plus room for 4 full sized adults, and a generous sized trunk, the TL is your car. I actually dig the styling of the TL in it's SH AWD guise. It definitely has a presence about it on the road. I love the lip spoiler on the back & the faux quad exaust. The wheels look sharp. It gets fantastic reviews & write ups.
Your best bang for the buck in this segment is definitely the Infiniti. That's a whole lot of horsepower for your just over $40K sticker. They give BIG discounts on these too.
I think the A4 is a nice looking car, but am not sure if a 4 cyl cuts the mustard with it's $45K price tag. I know it is probably the best turbo 4 on the market, but it is still a 4. Good amount of passenger room, nice sized trunk.
Dynmanically, the BMWs are the best. Nothing comes close to the way a 3 series drives. $52K is a lot of money for a car the size of a Honda Civic. $45K is a lot to ask of a 230 hp car. I know it isn't about straightline acceleration & 0-60 mph times.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I guess I have to agree with you here...but my office is 10 miles one way and my wife telecommutes...and everything we need/want is within 10 mile radius...so most of the miles are recreational.
Back to cars...I have driven loaners TSX and TL and I prefer TSX over TL.
Your price points are interesting. Didn't think TL is that expensive.
As far as BMW and Dynamics go, I think BMW were good dynamically but the new ones are more luxury-less performance. I testdrove brand new 2011 BMW 5 series and 2010 5 series and found older model to be more satisfying to drive.
For around 40k
-1
I would go 2009 CPO BMW 335xi, 6 speed depending on how the leather looked.
G37
CPO new model S4, the one with the v6 not 8 (if you could get one for that price)
Lexus IS 350x,
TSX 6 speed,
328xi 6 speed, the little 6 is plenty quick
A4 agree to much $$ for what you get, current TL beergoogles needed, volvo S60??
Styling is a very subjective matter. I like the TL SH AWD's styling. I'm also a big fan of the former E60 BMW 5 series styling as compared to the current F10. I also prefer the E60 to the former E39 (ducking and running).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Just please get the manual. The automatic is a travesty and is something added for basically the U.S. market. It's unreliable and makes the car as sluggish as a toad.(this generally is true for most European vehicles, actually)
He recently went to his dealer to look at a 2011 TL and the sales manager told him to wait until the 2012 model. The 2011 will have a short MY and the resdesigned/restyled 2012 will be at dealers this coming spring.
I haven't seen any spy shots but it has to look better than the current TL...
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I haven't seen any spy shots but it has to look better than the current TL..."
Here are some spy shots, not that you can tell that much from them...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-cars/spy-photos/spied!-2012-acura-tl/gallery
I agree that they really couldn't do much to make it any uglier! I can't believe that the TL is selling at a rate of 2500-3000 in current form??? I'd take the TSX V6 any day...or a CPO TL or TSX would be even better! I wonder if sales of Acura CPO models, the pre-'09 TL especially, have been stronger since the current car showed up?
We'll probably get some kind of SUV. Right now I really dig the MDX.
That Volvo S60 looks nice on paper, but I think in one review I read that it is more of an A4/Lexus Competitor than G37/3 Series.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD