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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • cjs2002cjs2002 Member Posts: 341
    place I plan to get it tinted from comes with a lifetime garontee so long as I own the car... if it peals or bubles or fades in any way they'll replace it... had them re do my windows on my explorer with the mirror tint and haven't had a problem... though have gotten pulled over once... but lied and said I bought it that way..
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    Finally got to drive a G35x today (nearest dealer is 50+ miles away) on my way to the NY auto show. Looking for some feedback from others who have driven both this and either a 325xi or 330xi - I drove both of those a month ago (that dealer only 45 miles away - in a different direction).

    My needs list - AWD, highly reliable, "compact" size, fun to drive, and it falls off after that. Price is a consideration.

    My observations:
    AWD performance - I'll never know from a test drive not in nasty snow - assume they are both good.

    Price - G35x, by a couple thousand or more, depending on if I compare to 325 or 330.

    Reliability - varies by the individual car, of course, but Infiniti looks to have (significantly?) better odds

    Size - comparable, but the BMW seemed a little cramped to me (the oft-repeated comments about the "grade" of the interior between the two is of lesser concern to me - both are fine)

    Fun - This is a little harder, since the lag between my drive times was long, but here's how it felt, and I'm looking for your observations:

    There is a noticeable power difference between the 325 and the other 2. Maybe daily it doesn't matter, but it's easy to feel. Otherwise, the power seemed to me to come on much more smoothly in the 330 than the g35. G35 might ride better, but I also felt that it was a little over-sensitive to minor inputs, and I didn't feel that in the BMW. They all braked strongly (as much as I can test in a test drive).

    I'm not looking to restart the "I love my xxx, it's the best" wars, but I would be interested in hearing from those who have driven both (or all 3). All are seemingly very nice - even near-luxury (!) cars.

    Interesting cars from the show (in their AWD versions, which sometimes means coming soon) - Lexus 2005 GS, Saab 9-2 (even if it is a Subaru ;-), Acura RL (but too big for me). Acura said all their cars would be AWD if I wanted to wait. Infinity M (again too big, though). It was crowded down there today, bad weather or not.
  • rderizansrderizans Member Posts: 15
    I had a '99 328i for just over five years and purchased a G35x back in January. I test drove the 325ix and 330ix as well as the A4 1.8T and 3.0. My opinions were similar to yours:

    - BMW engines are the smoothest out there and my 328i was the smoothest of any car I've ever driven (I think they get better with age). If the ABS system hadn't gone (~$3000 estimated to repair), I'd still be driving it for sure. The G35 engine is great and VERY powerful, but somehow not as much fun to rev to the redline as the BMW engines.
    - 325 and Audi engines just didn't have enough torque for me. The Audi felt nice, but the throttle response wasn't there for me.
    - G35 is bigger than the other cars. Significantly in overall size, somewhat less significantly in interior room but still, it's a bigger car with more room, which was a positive for me.
    - Handling was similar in all - excellent.

    As you can see, I like all of the cars. In the end, the decision for me came down to value and reliability. The G35x simply is a great value when compared to the BMWs and Audis. Sure, the interior plastics aren't quite up to snuff, but the leather is nicer (in my opinion), it's the most powerful in the group, and your reliability odds are definitely better with Inifiniti.

    No matter which you choose, you'll love the car. It's a great choice to have!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I agree w/ rderizans that the leather in the G is nicer. But I prefer softer leathers.

    The biggest weakness of the G is grade of interior materials (other than seats), but if you're not bothered by them, the G35x should be a top candidate. Seeing that the power difference (or lack thereof) in the 325ix was noticeable to you, I'd recommend not getting it. Might nag you constantly. The 330ix is a fine machine, you can't go wrong with it either.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    ah! thank you! been trying to get that right for some time now.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • gpwatfrdgpwatfrd Member Posts: 76
    Before I purchased my G35coupe my close second was the BMW 330i,325ci. I must admit before I test drove the 325ci(w/sport)I expected the car to be a dog and much to my surprise it was reasonably fast. The 330i(w/sport) was a wonderful car to drive. It was smooth and felt like it took far less effort to pick up speed. I have nothing negative to say about how the 330i drives. I just think the look is a little dated to me and the 3 series around here are far too common.

    When my G35coupe was in for service I was given a G35X( I happened to get caught in the middle of an unexpected snow storm. It handled very well. I never had any problems the entire day. Now, it was not on the same level as my wife's A6 quattro but the car handling capabilities are more than adequate. I prefer the interior of the 3 series but I agree with some others on this board with regard to the seats. The seats are more comfortable in the G.
  • lxgmblxgmb Member Posts: 41
    My 2001 C320 stopped while I was on highway!
    All lights came up. The fuel gauge showed that I still have half tank of gas, but the "End of fuel" light was on at the same time. This light did not come up before that moment.

    The roadside assistant came in 45 minutes, checked, and added some gas, the car worked again. It seems it was a fuel gauge malfunction.
    Will there be any harm to the engine or anything, since I drove the car at very low fuel level?
    Any comments?
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    No harm.
  • lxgmblxgmb Member Posts: 41
    I am in north jersey. Let me tell you my recent experience with the dealer loaner. My 2001 car has 38K miles on it. When you make regular service appointment, they put you at least 3 weeks later, and give you a 2004 loaner.

    1. In March, something was wrong on the car, I called, they scheduled it 3 weeks later. I asked, if they can make it earlier, because I was not sure if the problem was critical or not. They said, they can, but they don't have loaner, I have to rent a car at my own expense.

    2. 10 days ago, my car was hit by a lost-control car, some bodyworks need to be done, I have to rent a car myself. ( I don't blame them for this one.)

    3. This moring, my car stopped on highway ( see my previous post). The malfunction fuel gauge showed that I have half tank of gas, actually the tank is empty. When I call the dealer, they said they can treat it as urgent service, but, again, I have to rent a car at my own expense, because they don't have loaner.

    You CAN get a loaner, if you schedule the service several weeks earlier. If it is anything urgent comes up, sorry, you have to rent a car yourself.

    The problems are:
    1. They want to cut loaner cost by having less loaners,
    2. The MB cars have too many problems, people are busy bringing in their cars to get fixed.

    I hope I haven't bought this car!

    I am thinking about selling this car before the warranty expires. I just can't afford the time, the money and the patience. I just can't!

    Finally, a funny thing, when I was at the dealer
    several days ago, I overheard a lady who drives a coupe complained a problem, I told her I have had that problems about 10 times. She said, that's no big deal, she still have had A problem, B problem, C problems,....
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    It seems to be going downhill fast. Consumer Reports, JD Power and other publications show MB below the industry average in reliability. The principals at my company all own MBs and are looking to dump them...the cars have tons of problems. I wouldn't touch MB with a ten foot barge pole.
  • sweetc230sweetc230 Member Posts: 33
    One more question. . .do you regret not getting the 6 spd manual? I am really considering the G coupe as a 3rd car and have found 6 '03 G coupes @ several Carmax locations on the east coast. Five of them are automatics & one is manual; however, the one manual has basically every option (including the overpriced nav) and they want $34K for it. The autos have the prem package and are stickering for 30-31K. I have always owned manuals, but I have been strongly considering going the auto route for traffic's sake. Did you test drove both? Does the automatic feel like it is giving anything up to the stick? Thanks for your opinions!

    Anyone else owning the G coupe feel free to fill me in.THANKS!
  • lxgmblxgmb Member Posts: 41
    I think the purpose of introducing an entry-level car of this kind is to seduce the young and not-that-rich people into the MB world, and buy high end cars when they get older or richer.
    But it seems this C class really prevent people from looking further at other series.

    Does anybody know if the E or S series have problems as well?

    When I decided to buy this car, there were not so many entry level luxury cars out there, despite of all the bad comments from other owners, I still decided to buy it. I made a mistake.
  • jjabbytaylorjjabbytaylor Member Posts: 28
    The reports that I have heard have indicated that the S-Class' reliability is actually worse due to all of the electronic wizardry and telematics systems. I've also heard that the BMW 745i has a similar level of problems.

    I haven't heard as much about the E-Class, so I'm not sure if that means it has less problems than the S-Class or not.

    Jeff
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    One S430 and an S500 here at work. They have a second home at the Mercedes dealership every other month.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Did you test drove both? Does the automatic feel like it is giving anything up to the stick? Thanks for your opinions!

    Test drove both. Night and day. The auto, like all autos, lags and removes the driver too much from interacting with the engine.
  • gpwatfrdgpwatfrd Member Posts: 76
    While I do not live in the city, there is still too much congestion for me to go with a manual. The auto was the only option for me.
     My G35 coupe is also a 3rd car situation but I just do not have the patience for a manual in the area I live. In my experiences the manual version will always give you a closer connection between the driver and their car (as blueguydotcom stated) but I disagree with his statement about the auto G35coupe. The manumatic is better than what you will find offered on most vehicles in a similar price range.
  • sweetc230sweetc230 Member Posts: 33
    That was pretty straight forward. That much of a difference, huh?. . .that is kind of a bummer, but I guess that is why I have only owned manuals.

    Anyone else who has test driven or owns one, do you feel the same as blueguy?
  • sweetc230sweetc230 Member Posts: 33
    That was what I was hoping to hear. I am going to give it a try next week. I will let you know my impressions.
    Thanks again!
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    I just drove a G35x auto. I found the "tiptronic" style shifter pretty nice and smooth. If it's your 3rd car (as in you have 3 at once, not sequentially) maybe you can stick with the stick. But since you mention traffic....

    My wife and I ALWAYS owned manuals, until the day I broke tibia/fibula playing soccer. Switched one to auto then, and as traffic built up and commute got worse, switched the other car. Drove a loaner stick recently, and it was just great fun, but probably won't go back.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Question? I'm trying to understand if Audi's reliability is any better than MB's. Per the surveys Audi's shouldn't be touched either as it is even worse???

    M
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    The A4 has average reliability that's why I got it. I can't speak for the rest of the line, but you are probably right. Both MB and Audi are risky propositions.
  • gpwatfrdgpwatfrd Member Posts: 76
    We have an A6 and I could not recommend the car. Our car has had one problem after the next. Although, I know a couple of A4 owners who swear by their car.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Consumer Reports doesn't recommend any of the MB or Audi models. They do however highly recommend the VW Passat.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I'd still rather have the A4 over the Passat.

    Audis are better put together than their VW counterparts. Besides, Audi service is light years better than VW. So if something were to go wrong I'd rather be driving an Audi.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    I'd rather have the A4 over the Passat too but I just find it curious that the reliability of the Passat hasn't extended to its luxo counter parts (A4, A6, etc.). The Japanese auto makers seem to have a much easier time of it (Accord>>TL, Maxima>>G35, Camry>>ES330, etc.). Every one of these cars are recommended by CR.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I don't understand why CR recommends the Passat. If you frequent VW boards (like I do) you find a large number of irate Passat owners. While @ A4 boards folks spend most of the time talking about the mods they've made on their cars. Go figure!.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    I'm posing this question to the group because I think it's only a matter of time before the Korean auto makers (Hyundai in particular) introduce a luxury car line to compete in this market segment. It may take them a few years to catch up but we all know how patient the Koreans are. They've come a long way and have proven their capabilities with cars like the XG350 (Hyundai's flagship luxury model) which is recommended by CR. In fact, Hyundai currently has three models recommended by CR.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I'm all for Hyundai/Kia and their cars. They definitely improved on their quality and reliability.

    I have no doubt that they will soon offer a bona fide entry-level luxury sedan offering, but they still have a long way to go in terms of "performance".

    They will probably try to make an ES330 fighter at some point, which is good because the ES330 is currently in a category all by itself among import sedans.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Yes, but have you seen the latest side-crash results. Hyundai scored near the bottom of the list as poor.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Yes, but have you seen the latest side-crash results. Hyundai scored near the bottom of the list as poor."

    I'm not sure what study you're referring to. The NHTSA side-crash test ratings for 2004 Sonata, Elantra, XG350, and Santa Fe were all either four or five stars.

    I guess there was some other study that found otherwise.

    What I was surprised to find was that the 2004 3-series sedan had a three star front side impact rating.

    *Edit: I see the IIHS study now.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Not true. For the Hyundai XG350, CR reports:

    1. Government Side Crash tests results where rated "Very Good" for both driver and rear passenger.

    2. The IIHS Frontal Offset Crash test was rated "Good" overall.
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    But Hyundai would be crazy to enter the market now, when their cars cant even compete well with camrys and accords, except on price.

    they would be skipping quite a few steps if they tried now, and the risk of failure would be far higher.

    even, more established german brands like vw, try to ease in their transition, eg the passat is slowly moving upmarket and the phaeton clearly is, though the brand still isnt.

    and if vw has so much trouble, and may yet not succeed, imagine how much more difficult it woulf be for hyundai.

    the xg350 may be a great car by hyundai standards. but do you really think its competitive ?
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Just because Toyota, Nissan and Honda made it to the top doesn't mean that Hyundai has a place reserved on that gravy train. Evidence 1: Hyundai sales have been off quite a bit this year. Evidence 2: they just have to up incentives by quite a bit.

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0404/20/c02-127757.htm

    I think it's much more likely Hyundai will join Mazda/Mitsu/Subaru as 2nd tier brand.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Hyundai (and its corporate sister Kia) doesn't produce any car that is really performance oriented. Not even the Tiburon, which is more (good) looks over performance. Will be interesting to see if/when they try to get into the performance sedan market. Due to tooling and other issues, doubt they'll be selling a RWD car in USA any time soon.

    [But I will say that my work '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 with 5-speed manual, TC, and ABS has been quite reliable and a pleasant car to own & drive.]
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 590
    If Hyundai or any other low-priced brand wanted to enter the luxury market, they'd have to first create a new brand like Honda, Nissan and Toyota did.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Honda, Nissan & Toyota are the top 3 of reliability. Without that, my guess is they would not have challenged the Europeans successfully. Most of the other Japanese makes and Hyundai are not in the same reliability league. Although I heard Hyundai did make some giant strides.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Before Hyundai can reach Honda, Toyota and Nissan in quality, they should be able to surpass Mazda, Subaru, and Mitsubishi. Aside from Mitsu, which I think it is absolute junk, Hyundai has not gone past Mazda or Subaru.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    speedracer3... Only time will tell. Mazda, Mitsu, and Subaru are 2nd-tier players in their home market (behind market leaders Toyota and Nissan). Hyundai, which also owns Kia, at least dominates its home market. And Hyundai's sales in USA have exploded. Don't they outsell the Mazda, Mitsu, and Subarau in USA? Hyundai is expanding production in USA and Europe. And Hyundai is not part of some other automotive company's corporate empire (e.g., Mazda=Ford).
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    ...if any car maker can do it, Hyundai can. Hyundai Heavy Industries is the world's largest shipbuilder -- a title they took away from the Japanese many years ago. In fact, they lead the world in shipbuilding technology. My guess is that if/when Hyundai (the car company) decides to launch a luxury car brand, they will no doubt become serious competitors...however long it takes.
  • portknoxxaportknoxxa Member Posts: 69
    I agree that near luxury cars have to offer some type of performance, i think that the ES330 competes closely with a MB 240/320, but not with a BMW 325/330, IS300, G35, etc. The Kia Amanti is an ugly looking car with a wealth of standard luxuries, but of course it's not a performance car. Even if Hyundai puts a 3.5L V6 with 250hp and 240 torque in a Sonata, what about the tranny, braking, suspension, etc, and all of those other important components that keep that power in check. I do not think that Hyundai is up to that level of performance yet. I traded in a 2002 Sonata V6 for A Mitsu GTS, only because I wanted a family size car with above average performance. I agree that a separate luxury division would be better for Hyundai/Kia, because there would be a stigma: Who would pay $30K for an entry level luxury Korean car, when you can buy a loaded Accord/Camry/Altima/Galant/6, etc.
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    as long as they dont go under trying.

    if a company cant even build small reliable cars, yet start making public statements about investing heavily in bringing out a luxury performance platform, i'd dump their stock.

    i also wouldnt be surprised if credit dried up as lenders lose confidance.

    will hyundai be another daewoo ?
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    Hyundai is a large company, and they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but why? The only reason Honda and Toyota were successful because of their reliability, which was way better than any competition. Hyundai, on the other hand, have only average reliability, it's got better in a past, but it takes years to build a name. It took Nissan/Infiniti more than 10 years to come up with vehicles worth considering luxury, not to mention they almost ran out of business, and were bought by Renoult. Hyundai may be have enof money to try , but Kia will go under in no time.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    No one is saying that Hyundai is going to stir things up in the entry-level luxury market any time soon.

    Give 'em some time.
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but with below average reliability. so the only reason to buy hyundai would be price.

    certainly not reliability, luxury or performance.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    It isnt impossible for hyundai to become a serious competitor in the entry-level-luxury market. To me, hyundai is the most aggressive car manufacturer.

    The problem is market leaders like Toyota and Honda always make innovations and enhancements too, they just dont stand still. They can be beaten if their product became overpriced, lack of innovation/enhancement.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but with below average reliability. so the only reason to buy hyundai would be price."

    They've greatly improved on the reliability area.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-03-11-cr-picks_x.htm

    Tied with Honda for 2002 models. Of course, their older models are average or below-average.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Of course, still imitates other designs (hey, but who doesn't!)

    http://hyundaifans.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=newsonata&- action=display&num=1081522745

    Looks like an A6 mated with an Accord.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Your statement "hyundai = below average reliability" is only true about what most people think. The fact is that Hyundai reliability is in the average to good range, according to CR. Half of their models are recommended by CR, whereas none of the MB or Audi models are recommended because of reliability issues (not that I'm comparing them).

    Remember Toyota, Honda and Datsun in the early years? Would you have bought one of those cars? Hyundai certainly deserves a lot more credit than what most people give the company, and if they play their cards right, they have a very bright future ahead of them. Will that future include a luxury brand? Who knows? To some, who cares? I just find it very interesting to see how a car company slowly and deliberately improves their products and increases their market share. It may be a little like watching a flower grow but one day, it will bloom.
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    ".D. Power and Associates, a marketing and research firm, said its annual Initial Quality Survey, which looks at problems in the first 90 days of ownership, put Hyundai's 2002 vehicles below the industry average. "I am a little surprised that they rank them near the top next to Honda," says Brian Walters, Power's director of product research. "But I am not surprised to hear that Hyundai products are getting better."

    im also surprised 2 hear that they rank near honda. in fact, since im not a public figure being quoted in a well circulated broadsheet, i would go s far s 2 say, that, ranking hyundai as above average cals into question the credibility of their ranking process.
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    possible, yes. probably, no.

    i would say its more probably that hyundai will b a footnote like daewoo, then it will b a serious auto player, let alone n auto player with n offering in the entry level luxury sedan market.

    toyota and honda have no offerings in the entry level luxury sedan market. even their luxury brands r still not 100% accepted. and they constantly have 2 offer significantly more for less price, 2 compete with the likes of mb and bmw.

    @ least they can say they have great reliability and lower maintenance costs. what has hyundai got 2 offer ?
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