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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Mopar doesn't always make their own products. In many cases, they get another company to make it and then slap a Mopar name on it. Honda's is made by Rosen, a very reputable company that even MB and BMW use for their on-board entertainment systems. It is extremely likely that Chrysler's system is OEM'ed from another 3rd party company, perhaps Audiovox or even Rosen (it doesn't look like a Rosen though). Factory installation saves the warranty headaches + the installation charges down the road. Certainly something that I would opt for given the chance.
Drew
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Come on Adam do you really believe Mopar is making the dvd players and not buying them from a third party and putting their name on them? Do you know how many parts are made by third parties for all automobiles? A Mopar, Honda, Motorcraft, GM, etc. part just means it was built to their specifications in many if not most cases. Not that they made it themselves.
I agree that it is nice that entertainment systems are being integrated at the factory now.
I noticed the 2002 Odyssey link showed the Ody with leather seats with a change of the contour so they tend to wrap around the person at the ends. I hope the 2002 Odyssey cloth seats are not changed in a similar manner as the 1999-2001 Odyssey seats are VERY comfortable for me.
Although we have been well pleased with our 99 GC, we now consider any brand (as evidenced by our departure from GM in 1999 to buy the GC). The comfort of driver and front passenger is the MOST important thing in determining our purchase.
Guess how you will be treated if you buy a new van and it has a major safety problem, you can tell all your friend that they fixed it after you bought yours!!!!!!!
They do not deserve anyones consideration when purchasing a vehicle. Let them burn with the rest of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have several accessories through MOPAR over the last three years and have been very pleased with the performance of each of the accessories. I would rather buy something through MOPAR just to have the piece of mind that Chrysler is confident this part WILL WORK in my DC vehicle. MOPAR also makes parts and accessories for Chrysler cars that cannot be found by going to another 3rd party company or supplier.
Besides, I would much rather be a passenger in a 2002 DC minivan and watch my favorite DVD over an Infinity 200 watt sound system than I would with a cheap 6-speaker Honda system that is found in the Ody. Odd1, I'm sorry you don't see that MOPAR parts will work better with DC products than most other cheaper parts found from companies that "specialize" in just about every car manufacturer out there.
Steve, I don't know what Chrysler's plans are with the 3.5L V6 engine and neither do you. Who knows!? Now that Honda has updated their 3.5L V6 engine, Chrysler may be forced to do the same to theirs just so they can have "bragging rights" over having the minivan with the biggest and most powerfull engine on the market. I guess only time will tell.
-Adam
Thousands of the 2001 model DC minivans have been on the road now for about a year. Judging by how many car accedents there are these days, I think it is safe to bed that a good number of those vans have gotten into accidents. Some of those accidents have been serious and others very minor. I have not heard of any story about a DC minivan suddenly exploding or leaking gas after an accident.
With that said, I would be willing to bet that the all mighty Honda Odyssey with magical third row seat could also develop a fuel leak if it was hit from a certain direction, speed, and/or angle. Chrysler does not built their minivans only to do well in set-up crash tests performed by private insurance compannies. This is not to say they are not safe vehicles. Any car can develop a fuel leak in a serious crash when the variables are just right, even the untouchable Honda Odyssey.
-Adam
The same kind of 40mph offset crash test is conducted as part of the government new car assestment programmes in Australia, Japan, and Europe because it has proven to be realistic in real world conditions. The US NCAP has not been changed significantly since the 1970's and is clearly grossly out of date.
http://www.crashtest.com/explanations/nhtsa/usncap.htm
I think the point is that the fuel leak shouldn't occur in such a routine crash test. It's not an unusual test with an unknown set of variables. It's also not as if Chrysler didn't know about it either since they redesigned the part for MY2002.
Drew
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I just hope the fuel tank part wasn't Mopar or that the dvd wasn't studied by the same D/C engineers . I never said Mopar didn't make any parts. I said that many are just OEM and receive the Mopar name.
That is exactly my point on DVD players. The vehicle manufacturers are putting them in at the factory so that they are fully integrated to begin with no matter whether Audiovox or whoever makes them. Don't you think Honda is doing this for exactly the same reason? No one is going to say that dealership xyz and their abc entertainment systems suck. They are going to say Honda or D/C entertainment systems suck if there is a problem with aftermarket ones installed by the dealer.
You know it is impossible presently for Odyssey's sales to go up when they already sell every van they make. Do you want me to come in here in a year and say Odyssey's sales are up 100% once the new plant is at full capacity? If I did would you think that a far comparison? I could say that Honda sells 100% of their Odysseys every month therefore it is a better van than D/C. Would that be a fair argument?
One of the reasons I like the van so much is because I know I can carry almost anyone and anything wherever I need to at any time....in comfort. Although this can be said for just about any minivan, there are a few things that I like about DC minivans that can't be found in others (in my opinion). I don't think any other van looks as good as DC minivans (especially the MY96-00 vans), not only on the outside but the inside as well. Chrysler's engineers did an awesome job at creating a minivan that is truly an attractive and visually appealing automobile.
For example, look at the sliding door hinges on the Honda Odyssey. They are not hidden and are totally exposed, unlike on the DC minivans where the hinges are hidden directly under the side-rear window. Other examples are small things like circular fog lamps, 17 inch chrome wheels on the ES, a honey-comb front grille, and a very attractive body design. Perhaps thats another reason why I don't mind driving our van...it is an attractive vehicle. Many of my friends compliment me on the 16 inch chrome wheels on our Town & Country and are always suprised to see them on a van (considering they are stock equipment).
Anyway, that is a good point you bring up about the Odyssey sales and how Honda sells every van they make. The same can be said for Chrysler except it takes them so much longer to sell all of their vans because they make so many. However, I was trying to point out that a sales increase of 58% for the Town & Country really shows that the car is still very popular, despite the intense competition it faces.
Odd1, what kind of Honda Odyssey do you have? What model year? How many miles do you have on it?
-Adam
My point in saying that Town & Country sales rose 58 percent was simply to point out that not everyone out there sees the Honda Odyessey as the only minivan that is worthy of buying. Any car company could do what Honda is doing with the Odyessey, even if their car isn't popular. If Kia only makes 300,000 Sedona models a year but more than 300,000 people want it, then they too will sell EVERY car before it hits the lot.
Things change when supply keeps up demand. It will be interesting to see what the sales of the Honda Odyssey are like for the 2002 model year when they supposedly "boost production" of the van. Comparing the popularity of the Honda to the DC vans will then become a bit more realistic.
-Adam
'01 EX SS 17,000mi(we live 30 miles out of town)no problems. Already hankering for an '02 with the improvements. Haven't missed the D/Cs or the repair shop one bit.
I don't know whether to have hope or pity for teens that like mini vans. I hope you've had a good summer. I wish you luck in all your endeavors for the upcoming school year.
BTW what are you going to do if your parents get rid of the van when they don't need a kid limo any more? If you tell me college girls think they are hot and you hope to take it to college; I'm going to start looking at retirement homes for myself NOW. Unfortunately, it probably is a good vehicle for that; going places in groups and taking roadies, etc.
I'm sorry you have been "burned" by DC in the past. However, I cannot say we have experienced the same trouble you have with both of our DC minivans, which have been flawless vehicles. I am not alone when I say this, as many of me nieghbors and friends love their DC minivans and have not had any problems with theirs. For example, my neighbor down the street has a 1997 Town & Country LXi with 78k miles on it and they have not had any major problems. They love their car.
You don't know wheather to have hope or to pitty me? That's sad. I like driving a CHRYSLER minivan because it is different from what many other teenagers drive. What do other teenagers drive and think they are so cool in? They drive V6 automatic Ford Mustangs, Cameros, and modified-ugly SUVs. The thing that really gets me is HOW they drive. These so called "normal" teenagers drive with their seats back almost to the floor, their left arm on the 12 o clock steering wheel position, and a cocky "im so hot" look on their face. I dont know about any teenagers you know or have had, but I'm not into DRIVING or LOOKING like that. Sorry, I guess I'm not a conformist and I'm certainly not into the whole "macho" look most other teenage males are attracted to.
I like driving CHRYSLER minivans over anything else becaues in my opinion they look better than any other minivan, they drive like a sports car (as minivans go), and have many small but HELPFULL features (adjustable cup holders, doors that automaticly lock over 16mph, grochery bag hooks, and overhead console with trip computer). Not to mention the kick-*** Infinity sound system included in some of the models (we were lucky enough to get this option).
What will I do when my parents trade the van in at the end of our lease? I'll look back and think what a great time I had driving our 2000 Chrysler Town & Country around for those 2-3 years. It wouldn't have been the same with any other minivan. And yes, that includes the amazing Honda Odyssey! Does that answer your question, odd1?
-Adam
The Jetta that you mentioned (any idea what year?) was not involved in a routine laboratory crash test like the IIHS. It didn't leak any fuel from the tank area, but rather was the fault of the driver for not turning off the engine. In a higher speed collision, the inertia switch would've likely turned off the pump automatically.
How many accidents? Hmm, probably all of them that I've seen have not have any spilt fuel, and I've seen some pretty nasty ones.
Good luck,
Drew
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"MY2001 Chrysler/Dodge minivans: IIHS offset crash test results" Jul 17, 2001 12:57pm
Drew
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BTW I don't think any mini-van is attractive.
As I read in the Town Hall Problems Forums, I read of more problems with Odyssey or Sienna than with Voyager, Caravan, or Town & Country. How can the Town Hall be so different than Consumer Reports? Are real people with real names more honest than the fictious owners quoted in CR?
CR's ratings are not fictious. They verify it by asking you to provide your vehicle's VIN in the surveys. I myself have participated many times in the past. If they were just printing garbage, people would've noticed in the last couple of decades (at least) that they've been doing this. It's easier for someone to create multiple TH usernames (which is a no-no, BTW) and post fictious comments on a vehicle.
CR doesn't have to publish a sample size probably because their minimum size is large enough for it to be statistically valid. If they don't have a large enough sample, they simply print "not enough data available). Considering how many Chrysler minivans are sold, I think it's a safe bet that their data is reliable.
Oh BTW, I just found out that my transmission was changed after my torque converter blew up at about 30K kms, several years ago. So in fact, my van with about 60K miles on it is on its second transmission. The one Chrysler dealership in town has done all of the servicing, and the vehicle hasn't even been out of the province! No towing either. Just 80% city/20% highway driving. Usually just two to four people inside, and on occasion (maybe once every 6 months) 6 or 7 people.
Drew
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I don't think my son will drive my wife's T&C at all now that he has his license. He's commented on all the cool stuff it has (i.e., chrome wheels, leather, etc.) but would not be caught dead driving it. He calls our van a silver loaf of bread on shiny wheels. He's caught up in the whole SUV thing, but I guess I can see why driving a van with the perceived notion that it's a "mommy mobile" or "soccer mom" car wouldn't be to his liking.
Both my kids have very reputable cars of high quality ('00 VW Jetta, '01 Honda Civic) yet they still wish they had a Pathfinder or Grand Cherokee like "everyone else" at school. My daughter calls the student parking lot at our community's school the "Jeep/BMW outdoor showroom."
Sorry if I'm getting off-topic, but I guess I was just saying I guess my kids fall into that cliche, but at least they aren't driving a $50,000 BMW X5 SUV as THEIR own car at 16 like one of my daughter's friends.... Anyway, Adam, good for you for not always going with the crowd, and you're drivng a very nice car, too.
Carleton1-
I noticed that the post on the "Soccer Moms new choice in minivans" forum where you touted some Consumer Reports reliability results has been deleted. Another change of heart? In any case, it would still be nice to see your response to the questions posted on that forum.
I find a flaw in the fact that CR samples only its subscribers. This is not a scientific technique, as their subscribers do not likely represent a random demographic. In addition, it is likely their subscribers could be influenced by CR's editorial content. Even so, I would tend to believe CR's results are far more realistic than any small sampling of friends or tally of posts from online forums.
"Edmunds.com reserves the right to review any Postings and to remove or refuse to post any Postings in its sole discretion."
Drew
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CR did NOT ask for VIN during the many years I was an avid reader and subscriber.
For me, the actual reliability history of vehicles owned by people I know is the most valuable source upon which I base my decision on which vehicle to purchase and I realize it may not be scientifically valid for others. I began to not trust CR data many years ago when it did not accurately represent the experiences we have had with many vehicles.
CR gave bad advice about replacing things like hoses, belts, tires, etc. in the late 1960's and claimed mechanics were ripping people off when they replaced things before they were actually worn out. I have found it is far LESS expensive to replace belts, hoses, tires, etc. when 80 to 90 % worn out instead of trying to replace them out in the middle of nowhere on a rainy weekend night.
In checking copartfinder.com (A site for used parts from wrecked cars) I can find only 7 2001 DC vans, 5 Chrysler and 2 Dodge,only one has fire damage, but not due to a collision. There is no body damage. Found one Honda Odyssey 2000 with fire damage due to a collision. Realize that not every van damaged is on this site.
""2000 van for sale.... I just tried trading in my 2000 EX w/ navigation, leather (after-market of course) and 11k miles and was told that it was only worth $21,500 and that was from the mouth of a Honda dealer(s).....I had paid over $30,000 for the van ($28,400 + $1,700 for leather) and wasn't about to just give it away.""
Looks like Odyssey trade in is no better than DC. $21,500 trade in for a vehicle that has 11,000 miles and cost $30,100.
Here's Edmunds' True Market Value on a '00 Odyssey EX. It's far higher than a '00 Dodge Grand Caravan LE or even an ES:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/honda/odyssey/4drexpassengervan/prices.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/dodge/caravan/2drgrandlepassengervan/prices.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/dodge/caravan/2drgrandespassengervan/prices.html
Drew
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The Kelly's Blue Book trade-in value for my 2000 Chrysler Town & Country LX is exactly 17,540 with the "excellent condition" button selected. I am not suprised that the number isn't as high as it would be with a 2000 Ody with similar miles as this is our second DC minivan and we bought the car under MSRP (lease).
We just got a 2001 PT Cruiser Limited a few weeks ago and have learned alot about trade-in values during the looking then buying process. Our local Chrysler dealership is charging well above the estimated trade-in values for used PT Cruisers, just as some dealerships are doing with the Honda Odysseys.
dcb6538 , I have no idea why someone would spend nearly 30k dolars on a USED MINIVAN with over 30k miles on it, as in the case of the Ody for sale you described. There is another side of this whole trade-in value that people seem to be overlooking. Yes, the value of a DC minivan is relitevely poor after the car has been driven for a good period of time. However, this helps people who are looking to buy a used DC minivan in that they can get one at a great price. The same cannot be said for a used Ody, at least in some situations. You may be getting a good deal when you trade-in your Ody but the same cannot be said for the poor guy who is going to try and buy it.
I wish I could tell the guy selling that Ody for 26k "good luck" because I know I would never want to buy a used HONDA MINIVAN that is selling for more than what I could get for a new one. I feel the same for used PT Cruisers, as they too sell for much more than even some new models. Just my opinion.
-Adam
I have no problems with your posts as you are more responsible, in general, than some of my fellow ODY owners' posts.
Your DC has some features that I would like on my van.
The infinity sound system is my first choice, the DC roof rack my second, and auto door locking my third. Intermitant rear window washer is my fourth choice.
Interesting that the dribbling rear window washer on the 01 DC Grand Caravan Sport I recently rented was the same as on my ODY. A lot of ODY owners have complained about it.
2001 Odyssey EX, carsdirect price is $27,189. Grand Caravan EX is $26,180 with the side airags needed to get the "Acceptable" IIHS rating. I'll leave it for others to debate which feature differences are important, if any. Carsdirect isn't the best or worst price you can get on either vehicle, but it is a comparable figure for both.
The 2001 National lease residuals for Odyssey are 62% after 24 months, 47% after 48, and 39% after 72 months. For the GC EX they are 55%, 40% and 33% respectively.
So, after 2 years, the Odyssey owner has lost $10,332 compared to $11,781 for the GC. After 4 years it is a loss of $14,410 for Odyssey vs. $15,708 for GC EX. After 6 years, it is $16,585 for Odyssey vs. $17,541 for GC EX. The Odyssey does retain more value (about $1400) over the first 4 years, but declines to about $1000 after 6 years. Not a big difference, in my opinion, assuming I got the right numbers and did the math right, too.
I note the residuals for the Odyssey LX are slightly better than the EX, while the residuals for all other Grand Caravan models are much worse than the EX, perhaps because they are discounted more heavily.
Ford keeps blaming the tires for the fact Explorers flip at extremely high rates when tires suddenly blow out. Why? The same reason. It is cheaper to settle with the families that are injured or killed then it is to recall the Explorer. If, you saw the news on the Firestone trail in Texas. Ford has settled all these suits out of court so far. I'm not saying that anyone has been hurt due to that part failing on Chrysler vans. I'm saying look at the cost of making 100,000+(or whatever the number is) of the parts, getting all those vans into a dealership, and the time to replace the part(the gas tank would have to come off each one to be fixed). It will be much cheaper to settle with anyone's family who is injured or killed due to this part failing than it would be to do the right thing and replace the faulty part on each of these vans.
I for one do not trust car companies to police themselves.
My brother and his family were on their way back from vacation in their 3week-old GC, and they experienced major engine trouble. They were stranded along the interstate(with a 4-yr old). The van is currently at the dealership where the early prognosis is a thrown rod. Does anyone here familiar with Dodge think that he may get a new van? I don't know because I've never had it happen. I hope that they do what is right. Needless to say, he is less than happy to think that his new van is about to undergo major engine work.
This is only my second experience with Dodge. The other one wasn't much better. My father-in-law had a Dakota v-8 that had a perpetual oil leak. It was only a few months old, and the dealer could never get it stopped. It was ridiculous. He finally traded it. Dodge has a chance to earn my respect based on how they handle my brothers problem. Any ideas on his chances?
Thanks
If the dealership refuses to get him a new van he will probably have to deal with DiamlerChrysler Corporate. It will be interesting to see what happens. Please keep us informed on the outcome of this story...
-Adam
I believe, if you read Chrysler's statements carefully you will note that they say they didn't duplicate the leak. They never say they couldn't duplicate the crack. They say that in their 50 tests they never had a fuel leak. They never say if these fifty tests were 40mph offset tests or just what kind of tests these were. The Chrysler statements about this are very carefully worded. I question if they had fuel or a simulated substance in the vehicles. Also, I question if they looked for this problem since I don't read that they did 50 tests after the IIHS found this problem. I really just don't understand how Chrysler can be running the same test and have it not occur if it happened(the crack not the leak) both times the IIHS ran the test.
The IIHS doesn't use gasoline, but they use something less flamable.
Drew
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