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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Read my post #5897 and decide whether you want JUST a minivan.

    If yes, the choice is obvious. If no, i.e. you demand more like some others and I, the choice is also obvious.

    The choice is yours...
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    but the power lift gate doesn't really do anything for me (if you can get the key out to push the button, you can just as easily lift the gate yourself).

    I didn't think I needed a power hatch either, until I had one, and from now on, every car of mine will have one. My 2005 DCX GC SXT was purchased off the lot and had power hatch. Living in Detroit, with messy winters etc....not having to touch the hatch to open or close is a huge benefit!!

    I would also think of what $5000 savings would do in a 401 account or bank in 10 years time? And factor in the additional interest on the $5000 you might have to finance for 4-5 years!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Do not make me STOP THIS CAR, because I will bucko!

    Just kidding, but...

    Chill out, people. I love a debate, but this is getting silly. Resorting to bad humor and poking-fun is kinda childish on both sides of the debate...

    Everyone take a deep breath!
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    would also think of what $5000 savings would do in a 401 account or bank in 10 years time? And factor in the additional interest on the $5000 you might have to finance for 4-5 years!

    BTW the amount for people under 50 went from 14k to 15K for 2006 made the changes in my 401K today!! Everyone should max out if they can!! Enjoy! How would he finance and save it at the same time LOL
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    "Do not make me STOP THIS CAR..."

    It may be what is needed graduate.

    I agree though, the "bad humor"(the jipster being the lone ray of sunshine) and poking fun is getting intolerable.

    Let's try this small exercise to gain a better understanding of what minivan ownership is all about. Ody people....list 3 things you like about the DCX minivan. Then 3 things you would like changed, or improved in your Ody van. DCX people same thing(3 things you like about Ody and 3 things you'd like changed or improved in your DCX van)

    If you can complete this exercise without any sarcasm or underhanded compliments, then congratulations! You are not a Ody or DCX basher, flamer, malcontent,or any other of the negative imagery frequently thrown around in this topic of discussion. :)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    "Do not make me STOP THIS CAR..."

    It may be what is needed graduate.

    I agree though, the "bad humor"(the jipster being the lone ray of sunshine) and poking fun is getting intolerable.

    Let's try this small exercise to gain a better understanding of what minivan ownership is all about. Ody people....list 3 things you like about the DCX minivan. Then 3 things you would like changed, or improved in your Ody van. DCX people same thing(3 things you like about Ody and 3 things you'd like changed or improved in your DCX van)

    If you can complete this exercise without any sarcasm or underhanded compliments, then congratulations! You are not a Ody or DCX basher, flamer, malcontent,or any other of the negative imagery frequently thrown around in this topic of discussion.

    Here goes...!

    Caravan pros:

    Stow and Go
    Distinctive American Styling (not bland)
    Massive Rebates keep it from breaking the bank!

    Odyssey rants:

    Hard interior plastics
    Premium Price
    Standard Run-Flats on Touring model(should be a stand-alone option)

    There. How did I do? I put many miles on our Odyssey, and loved it (2000 model). I'm an Ody lover!

    thegrad
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    The three-speed A413 (later the 31TE) was only ever available with a 4 cylinder or the 3.0 V6.

    The 42TE was an option on the 3.0 and after 1999 was the only transmission available with any V6.
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    Well first, in 1962 no Dodge had a hemi. Second, the hemispherical engine being produced by Chrysler today has not one component that is similiar or will fit a hemi from any previous generation.

    Both the 3.5 and 3.8 engines received some changes along the way, the biggest is reised cylinder heads on the 3.5 and different crankshafts and connecting rods on both (from externally balanced to internally balanced). Check any engine swapping guide and you'll see the differences.

    More fun to drive? That's subjective.

    Other than that, I agree with what you said.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    BTW the amount for people under 50 went from 14k to 15K for 2006 made the changes in my 401K today!! Everyone should max out if they can!! Enjoy! How would he finance and save it at the same time LOL

    I was counting on Uncle Sam to totally provide for me!!! That way I can buy expensive Hondas with my own money - right?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I once had a 1979 Honda Civic with only a 2 speed auto - talk about LOUD at 55 mph, and terrible gas mileage!!! I sold my 67 Malibu with 283 V8/2 spd auto thinking I'd get better mileage......biggest regret. Afterwards I bought a new 1983 Calavier with 2.0 4cyl, 5 spd manual and put 180,000 very trouble free miles on her (just brakes, tires, exhaust and a starter). Sold the Chevy and moved up to 1990 Acura Integra hatchback.....It was my "Christine" of automobiles, not that the car was bad but it was a magnet for people hitting her, or things flying up from the road!!!!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    How would he finance and save it at the same time LOL

    Simple....he's saving at least $5,000 over price of Ody. If he purchased the Ody, it'd be $5,000 less in his pocket and the interest on financing that $5,000!!

    Take the $5,000 additional cost and interest (say for 5 years) over 10 years.

    And to quibble even further.....lets' consider the additional sales tax on that $5,000 he's not paying? There's potentially lower insurance costs for a lower priced vehicle?
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    When did the Hemi debut? I thought I remembered the 409 Chevy, 420 something Ford and the 426 Hemi all out in '62.

    Which way to the dementia board?
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    So I am left with trying to decide if the ODY is worth $5k more than the GC to me. I realize everyone's personal balance between price/features/reliability/resale will be different but so far I am leaning towards the GC. What do you think?


    I think it depends what your going to do with your minivan. If your just hauling people around I think the Ody would be a great choice, if your willing to spend the thousands more to get the extra's that the Ody offers, like the VSC and five speed tranny.

    On the other hand, if you have a bunch of kids and are hauling things like bikes, sports equipment, stroller, stuff for home improvement,etc., the Dodge/Chryslers with stow and go might suit you better. I think you need to decide what you'll use it for first and what features are more important to you for the price.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think it depends what your going to do with your minivan. If your just hauling people around I think the Ody would be a great choice, if your willing to spend the thousands more to get the extra's that the Ody offers, like the VSC and five speed tranny.

    On the other hand, if you have a bunch of kids and are hauling things like bikes, sports equipment, stroller, stuff for home improvement,etc., the Dodge/Chryslers with stow and go might suit you better. I think you need to decide what you'll use it for first and what features are more important to you for the price.

    Ladies and gentlemen, we have a DCX lover/non-basher of other makes! (APPLAUSE ENSUES)

    I agree, that the decision comes down to what the features and overall van is worth to you. If you look at it as a Home Depot hauler, then the car with Stow and Go is the best choice for you, most likely. If you want your van to gandle and accelerate like a sedan with extra room, the Odyssey is your choice.

    We chose the Odyssey to replace our 1993 Accord (this was in 2000). My mom loved her Accord, and didn't want to give up the driving experience just to get two extra seats, so the Odyssey was definitely the better choice for her.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Three things I like on Odyssey: Comfortable seats all 3 rows, 5 speed AT, "Plus One" seat in 2nd row with bucket seats able to move fore and aft.

    Three things to improve my 02 T&C LX: More comfortable driver's seat, 5 speed AT, 2nd row seats move fore and aft to include the "Plus One" seat of Odyssey in the 2nd row.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I once had a 1979 Honda Civic with only a 2 speed auto - talk about LOUD at 55 mph, and terrible gas mileage!!! I sold my 67 Malibu with 283 V8/2 spd auto thinking I'd get better mileage......biggest regret. Afterwards I bought a new 1983 Calavier with 2.0 4cyl, 5 spd manual and put 180,000 very trouble free miles on her (just brakes, tires, exhaust and a starter). Sold the Chevy and moved up to 1990 Acura Integra hatchback.....It was my "Christine" of automobiles, not that the car was bad but it was a magnet for people hitting her, or things flying up from the road!!!!

    Random thought of the day?

    I'm just struggling to see where this came from. Just pointing out that you didn't like your 79 Honda? That doesen't quite tie in here, in my opinion, but maybe I missed something. We are all allowed a little randomness.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Random thought of the day?

    YES!
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    Ody things I am not trilled about
    1. That damn flip up center thing. Boy I'd love a huge center console!
    2. No telescopic steering wheel
    3. Only a few replacement tires available in the original size.

    DCX things I like: Regardless of weather I'd use them
    1. Stow and go!
    2. Selling price
    3. Many available options
    4. lighted signals when sliding doors open
    5. Roof storage system
    6. Different models(SWB LWB)for different price points
    7. Batterey saver
    I;m sure theres more just a little tired this morning
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    The 3 people that I thought would respond to my question, have done so. These individuals love their Ody/DCX...and aren't shy to the degree in which they defend(though sometimes a little to strongly), and/or support their vehicles.

    What about the rest of you guys? Just can't get yourself to say something nice about the competition? It's very easy you know. Socalawd was "tired"...and he STILL came up with 7 things he liked about DCX. Just think what he could have come up with if he hadn't stayed up all night watching those bowl games and partying. :sick:

    Come on nonparticipators...this little test can be very benefical to those trying to decide which way to go....Ody or DCX. As the bayou dude said in "The Waterboy"..."YOU CAN DO IT" ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    Socalawd was "tired"...and he STILL came up with 7 things he liked about DCX. Just think what he could have come up with if he hadn't stayed up all night watching those bowl games and partying.

    Yep went to see tha KINGs last night they won in overtime. Ready for another year of spirited debate! :shades:
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Ody likes:
    Standard Safety: side air bags/VSC
    More and better designed cupholders
    3rd row access/side door design is vertical vs. angled in DCX
    Better standard instrument cluster/lighting
    Nicer door trim
    Double glove box
    9" LCD for RES models
    6-disc changer on EX+ models

    T&C Touring improvements:
    Better cross wind resistance
    2nd/3rd row cupholders
    Better navigation unit
    Heated 2nd row seats like Pacifica
    less brake dust
    easier access to 2nd row storage (improved for 2006)
    HID headlamps
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    DCX,
    The bland interior.
    No lights in glove box
    No light around ignition
    No GPS
    No standard side airbags
    Four speed tranny

    Ody,
    Very nice interior
    Very nice GPS
    Standard side airbags
    Five speed tranny
    VSC
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    There are also more things I like about the Odyssey: Ocean Mist Metallic Blue is a very attractive color, it FEELS like there is more leg room in 3rd row of Ody than any other minivan, the gray cloth interior of EX has a slight bluish tint that looks very attractive with either the Ocean Mist Metallic Blue or Taffeta White exterior, the instrument panel is very attractive, and the seats feel like they have less curvature than other brands. ;)
    (I was surprised how well the University of Utah Utes football team played in their bowl game...AND am anxious to see how well Reggie Bush plays in the Rose Bowl. :blush: )
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    Ots okay, I don't think you have dementia. Humans can't remember everything.

    The last and largest first generation hemis from Chrysler, the 392, was issued in the 1959 Chrysler Imperial. From the 1960 through '63 model years Chrysler did not put a hemi of any kind in a North American production car.

    The famous 426, second generation Hemi was first available as a limited quantity race option in 1964 B-bodied Plymouths and Dodges (In 1964 the "B" body Savoy & Fury I, II, and IIIs was the largest car platform from Plymouth. The Polara, Coronet 440 and 500 were the Dodge "B" bodies.)

    The 426 Hemi became available in production B-bodied Plymouths and Dodges from 1966 to 1971 model years. Parts from the first and second generation hemis are not interchangeable.

    What you may have thinking about -- and this is a very common and understandable mistake -- is the 426 wedge motor. Chrysler replaced the 392 in 1960 with the 413 wedge, and in '63 the 426 wedge replaced that motor. These engines are descendants of the 350, 361 and in the later evolving family of 383, 400, 440 cid engines.

    In 1962 the largest engine in any Chrysler product would have been the 413, however. I think it was Jan & Dean who did a song about the 413.

    Dusty
  • morganvmorganv Member Posts: 49
    iN all honesty I think a question was asked thats hard to answer cause we did'nt find a whole lot to dislike about the honda or the dodge van. In all of the subjective stuff, like handling ,ride, comfort, quiet and all that, we found ourselves agreeing that these two vans were about as close as you could ever get!! some think the honda handles better but my husband said a ever so slightly and I liked the dodge better. we Both thought the dodge rode better and I thought the dodge was a little quieter. wE like the interior of both, they were just different. neither of us were went goo goo over the ""better" interior appointment of the honda, it was very nice. being faster does not impress this mother, I ll tell you in fact its a negative since we have two juvenile drivers in the family and one coming up.To me the dodge comes off as more practical and probably more durable and less complex over the long haul. we'd buy either van if we thought we were getting our monies worth. At the moment we both think the dodge has a lot going for it for the price. the stow & go is a fairly big plus for us because we ll be using it to bus five kids ( and more!!!) and the van will be doing many duties. for us a "nicer" van by whatever subjective definition is given will not mean much to us because we have a more practical aspect to this purchase. one news tonight, our insurance guy said the honda would cost us about $370 more a year for insurance. That wouldnt stop us but its not going to bea plus either. But who knows this might be all irrelevant anyways after we test drive the toyota.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    We purchased a 2006 Toyota Sienna LE to complement our 2002 Chrysler Town & Country LX. The Odyssey just lacks the nice comfort and convenient features important to us that are contained on our Sienna and Town & Country. ;)
    For some, the Odyssey may be the best minivan...and they have no argument from me. :shades:
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    The first 392 Hemi engines were available on the 1951 Chryslers. My dad had a 53 Dodge with a 352 Hemi with a stick shift and a dry clutch (no fluid drive). That car surprised a good number of Fords Mercurys and Oldsmobiles in its time.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Good history lesson...you know your Chryslers!

    It was the Beach Boys who mentioned the 413.

    The song was Shut Down.

    " It happened on the strip where the road is wide..two cool shorts sitting side by side, a fuel injected Sting Ray and a 413...etc...

    Many a 409 Chevy got shut down by a 413!
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Well it is the second mostly deadly crash. The IIHS has quite a few tests that show it to be a very effective tool. Bad without and good with and thats the same car!!

    But if I never get in any accident in with this vehicle in the next 1.5 years (and I haven't in my 15 years of driving), then side air bags are a waste. The type of real world accident (not specific engineered tests) that would benefit from side curtain air bags has a very small chance of occurring. Everything in life has risk/reward trade offs.

    I wanted a small car payment for my family vehicle in order to soften the hit when we move this summer to a larger/more costly house for my family. There is no way I could get any Ody 18k mile/yr lease for anywhere near our cost.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Congratulations and wise choice on the Sienna hans. Now you are truely hansienna. ;)

    Though it would have been pretty cool for you to have purchased the Ody. Then you could have come to this discussion and debate yourself on the pros and cons of each vehicle.

    Ody hans, "No DCX hans...the Ody has more comfortable seating and a quieter ride"

    DCX hans, "You must be coo coo Ody hans...the DCX has more comfort and the windshield does not whistle like a choo choo train"

    Just kidding. Enjoy your new van. :shades:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    I was going to do the quote :) "Tach it up, tach it up, buddy gonna shut you down!" ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Wow, no posts practically all day? What is this forum coming to?
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    and the van will be doing many duties. for us a "nicer" van by whatever subjective definition is given will not mean much to us because we have a more practical aspect to this purchase. one news tonight, our insurance guy said the honda would cost us about $370 more a year for insurance.

    Which is also the reason I bought the Dodge. I really wanted the convenience of the Stow-n-Go.

    The wife was a little upset I bought the minivan. She said "Your going to pay the extra cost of insuring it."(Over what I was paying on our truck that I traded in for it) She and I were both surprised to learn that the insurance was cheaper than it was on her Honda Civic or my truck.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I had to go look at my policy after that post as $370 between vehicles blew my mind. They must have some pricey insurance because my Ody is less than $500 a year. It's $60 less per year than my wifes GX470. I've not called to compare insurance for many many years. Even when I had sports cars, there wasn't that much difference. Maybe Ody's are stolen a lot wherever they live. Who steals a minivan??
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    The difference on my new minivan, compared to our Honda Civic was less than $50.00. What surprised us was that the minivan has all this electrical stuff on it that the Honda doesn't have, was more expensive to buy than the Honda, but still the minivan was cheaper to insure.

    My brother parked his minivan in my sister's driveway when we took our trip to Europe. She lives just two blocks away, in a retirement community. It was stolen on the second day we were gone. (Police found it a week later.) It had about 1,700.00 worth of damage. Some of it was stolen parts. The funny thing about it, is that my brother lives in the same retirement community and has parked his in his driveway for years and never had any problems with it being taken.

    Of course we know that Civics are wanted more than minivans.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    The annual premium on our Ody is also about $450.

    Whoever is paying lots more is likely enabling the rich lifestyle of his/her insurance company/agent!
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    As some people are fond of saying, "You get what you pay for" ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    As some people are fond of saying, "You get what you pay for"

    My price I listed above is with State Farm, $500 deductible. Been with them for 18 years, no complaints. Not many claims either. Small cars are expensive to insure. My '00 VW Jetta diesel is very high. Even being 5 years old and only costing $16,000 new, it is currently only $20 less per year than my Ody. And it's cheaper now than it's ever been.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Also have State Farm...very good company from my viewpoint. Also, been with them around 16-17 years with no complaints. Our 2004 mini's premium is about $600 a year with a $250 deductable, with higher liability coverage(the amount I can't recall) Question is on whether the "discount" car insurers you see on t.v all the time is truely a bargain or something that is "you get what you pay for". Saying you are only paying a certain amount per year without givng information such as deductible amounts,full coverage or liability coverage amounts...is saying very little. ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Cost of insurance has a lot to do with where you live along with your driving record. To cover both the minivan and the Civic, our insurance costs us $1,500.00 a year in Phoenix. That is with no tickets or accidents in the last 5 years. Before changing carriers, we were paying $1,900.00 a year, $500.00 deductabe. We now have $200.00 deductable and paying $400.00 a year less.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    the insurance on my 05 ody costs the same as my 8 yr old accord , same coverage. :confuse:
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    Same coverage as a 2001 SWB Dodge caravan that cost me 16K(BTW I now have a 2005 EX-L with RES) and it was less than $50.00 increase per year. Wow they really are soaking you!! Get some more quotes Morgan that agent is ripping you off. ;)
  • fljoslinfljoslin Member Posts: 237
    While this topic shouldn't even exist here, I would just like to point out that all Honda lovers AREN'T Chrysler haters. Just because someone loves one product does not mean they have complete digust for another. I like ice cream, but it doesn't mean that I don't like chicken too! I just like ice cream better. Even if chicken has better nutritional value, it has given me food poisoning twice in the past(like the metaphor?), ice cream never has.
    I just bought a 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I would have loved to buy a Town and Country to go along with my Pacifica, Intrepid and 69 LeBaron. Saving a few thousand dollars (very debatable how many) could not convince me. The Odyssey is just a better vehicle.
  • fljoslinfljoslin Member Posts: 237
    What you may have thinking about -- and this is a very common and understandable mistake -- is the 426 wedge motor. Chrysler replaced the 392 in 1960 with the 413 wedge, and in '63 the 426 wedge replaced that motor. These engines are descendants of the 350, 361 and in the later evolving family of 383, 400, 440 cid engines

    I am not sure why this is in this thread, but:
    1) The 413 came out in 1959.
    2) The 426 wedge did not repalce the 413, but was sold in addition to it. The 426 Max Wedge replaced the 413 Max wedge.
    3) The 440 replaced the 413 and the 426 wedge in 1966.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    More of a GM guy myself during those glory years.

    In our town, we had a mouthy punk with a 409 Impala. He thought he was hot stuff until he made the mistake of taking on a "hillbilly" 'Dodge with a 413.

    Made that 409 look like a six cylinder! I was there.

    I know...back on topic... ;)
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    My Ody insurance price listed above is exactly $445.24/yr in the Carolinas with $500 deductible for collision/$100 deductible for comprehensive, including uninsured/underinsured motorist coverages for property damage($100K/damage) and bodily damage($300K/person) with Erie Insurance. Wife and I have no accident claims or traffic violations in the past 20+ yrs, despite my lead foot in our vehicles, including the spirited, fun to drive Ody.

    One of our sons had a deer encounter 3 years ago with his car and Erie repaired the $3500 damage quickly. Same fast repair payment service by Erie when the pizza delivery guy decided to deliver the pizza to our home packaged AC/Heat unit instead of our front door 8 years ago. His car rolled down our inclined driveway and got intimate with the packaged unit to the tune of a $4000 new replacement.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Buying insurance, IMO, is like buying Mattresses or Diamond rings!! Much more confusing and misleading than it has to be!!! I'm paying $2000/year to insure my 2001 BMW and 2005 DCX GC SXT via AAA Michigan, with identical coverage, and both as pleasure vehicles since I have a company car I abuse. I put about 70000 miles/year on each vehicle. Haven't had a ticket or accident in 10 years (I don't race on Offramps!) and every renewal I check out competitors....it's all about the same.

    A friend of mine, moving from CA to MI for job is seeing his insurance double!

    It's all a SCAM!!!

    Hmmmm....Crappy weather, crappy roads, and high insurance....why do I stay :) ??
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    "It's all a SCAM!!! "

    Sounds like it. But rates are based on regions where there are more statistical risks due to thefts, accidents, repair costs, other claims, etc.

    The annual insurance premiums on our M-B SL500 and BMW 550i are under $900 for each. Vehicle's value and cost to repair are signifciant contributors, besides driver's records.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    it is based on region and accident/theft rates. But the temptation and ease to take the ody to triple digits is far greater than the 8 yr old hooptee.

    But then every kid and their visiting friends in my block has asked me when am I selling the accord (it's a stick) and told me the stuff they will do to the car. I eventually sold it to a 40 yr old guy who commutes 80 miles to work everyday(it gets 35mpg on the hwy).
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Congratulations! It looks like my little exercise in finding common ground has been successful. You all are now one at peace with nature, yourselves, and each other. This topic discussion has gone from the most hostile of exchanges to those of inner peace and contentment. Instead of targeting each other...you have chosen a more healthy target...the insurance companies. ;)

    Happy New Year...and keep up the good work. :shades:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
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