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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The only issue I have with this apparently terrific car (all Audi's, actually) is - where do you draw the line? I mean, if the A3 fits your needs, then why not consider the Jetta or Golf? Same beautiful build, same performance, same amenities, cheaper price.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I mean, if the A3 fits your needs, then why not consider the Jetta or Golf? Same beautiful build, same performance, same amenities, cheaper price.

    Beautiful build? I know it's subjective but man the Jetta is so ugly sandra bernhard was heard making fun of the car's appearance. Really, the Jetta GLI is outrageously bad looking in person. It looks like someone crossed a 4X4 with a pill bug.

    Same performance? not really. The A3 has returned 6.3 0-60 sprints with DSG. The Jetta GLI is consistenly getting 6.7 and above.

    As for handling there's no comparing them either. Yes, the have some of the same underpinnings but the displacement of the weight is different and the cars handle markedly different ways.

    I have not driven the GTI yet but for now the next year or so it won't have the utility of the A3's 4 doors.

    Very different cars. And the prices differences...aren't there. A3 with dsg, open sky and sport is about 30k. Same stuff on a Jetta GLI is 28k.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/88304

    Translation:

    A good 20 years after the entry of a turbo charger in the 745i for an increase in performance, BMW as of 2006 once again turns to the turbo in order to pry out more power.

    The 335 makes its debut as the strongest Model of the 3er Series below the powerful M3. The nomenclature would lead one to err, as was the case in the 1980s.

    Instead of a 3,5 l motor (literally "equipment") there is a 3 l straight 6 cylinder with two Turbochargers and piezo direct fuel injection by Siemens.

    This will put out ca. 340 PS (horsepower). Visually the potent 3er will show its power with dual exhausts.

    Along side the 3er we can expect an M version of the 1er and further BMW will test a 4 l V8 biturbo as well as a 2 l 4 cyl. turbo.

    If that's true, I may have to return to bmw sooner than i originally planned. 340 hp and it's biturbo? Egad that thing'd smoke an e46 M3. And with biturbos one of my chief complaints about bmw (torque-less engines) will be answered. you gotta expect at least 300 ft-lbs of torque.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Very different cars. And the prices differences...

    Quattro for the Audi 3.2 is a key selling point for me! Would pick a Quattro over any comparable FWD VW.
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Instead of a 3,5 l motor (literally "equipment") there is a 3 l straight 6 cylinder with two Turbochargers and piezo direct fuel injection by Siemens.

    This will put out ca. 340 PS (horsepower). Visually the potent 3er will show its power with dual exhausts.

    :surprise:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Beautiful build? I was referring to the interior design and materials. Exterior appearance is subjective (and FWIW, I'm lukewarm to both).

    Same performance? Well, I haven't driven either one, and I haven't seen any head-to-head tests of the Jetta and A3. I'm basing my opinion on their specifications (if you've driven them side-by-side, then I'll concede to your first-hand experience). Based on my reading, they both have the same underpinnings, same wheelbase, same engine, and weigh within 50 lbs. of each other. My conclusion is that they are going to perform in a similar manner.

    Price differences? If $2,000 is insignificant to you, I'll e-mail you with the address where you can send my check... ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Price differences? If $2,000 is insignificant to you, I'll e-mail you with the address where you can send my check...

    Supposedly the Audi service/warranty is superior to VW and that initself may be worth the price differential.

    Then again I owned an Audi many years ago and I cant even imagine how services could get any worse!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    If that's true, I may have to return to bmw sooner than i originally planned. 340 hp and it's biturbo? Egad that thing'd smoke an e46 M3....

    So a 340HP 335i would get you back to BMW even when you all holla that its not about HP or speed ??? Hmmmm..... We'll see how the 335i turns out, and what price you'd have to pay to acquire one....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Same performance? Well, I haven't driven either one, and I haven't seen any head-to-head tests of the Jetta and A3. I'm basing my opinion on their specifications (if you've driven them side-by-side, then I'll concede to your first-hand experience). Based on my reading, they both have the same underpinnings, same wheelbase, same engine, and weigh within 50 lbs. of each other. My conclusion is that they are going to perform in a similar manner.

    I have driven both. gearing can make all the difference. the a3, being that it's an audi may be geared to offer a bit more zest in performance. i'd hope so!

    Price differences? If $2,000 is insignificant to you, I'll e-mail you with the address where you can send my check...

    For my happiness 2k is well worth it. I'm not going worry about a lousy 2000 dollars if it's the difference between me being 90% happy and 95% happy. I paid a good 7k difference opting for the 330i performance package or a g35 mt. haven't regretted it once.

    i can always make more money...but being happy, that's something worth paying for.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    So a 340HP 335i would get you back to BMW even when you all holla that its not about HP or speed ??? Hmmmm..... We'll see how the 335i turns out, and what price you'd have to pay to acquire one....

    Do you have any idea why I'm not opting for a e90 330i?

    1. Because only the handling is better than my e46's.
    2. The setup's not as engaging as my e46 perf pack.
    3. If i have to put up with how unreliable BMWs are, then I want the car to be ludicrously fun. An e90 is not ludicrously fun. Neither is my e46.

    My plan, assuming an e90 335i is not announced, is to buy something simple and cheap - like an S2000 or Miata. I'll drive that for 2 or 3 years and wait for the e90 M3 sedan. The e90 M3 sedan, assuming it comes out, should satisfy me to a level of 91-92%.

    The 335i allows me to avoid having something as garish as an M on my car and no ostentatious gills on the fenders. Plus the 335i would address something i hate about the current 3 series line up - no torque. I have stated several times I prefer VW's 2.0T to my e46's inline 6. I like the full blast of torque from 1800-5000 rpm. Having over 300 ft-lbs of torque over a broad range of the powerband in an e90 would suddenly take the decent car to a higher level - nice handling (ideally tightened up more for the 335i), matched to power for once.

    The G35 is faster than an e46 and e90. So what, the car's got snap oversteer issues. I want the whole package. sublime handling, crazy power and 4 doors.

    As for price, BMW bumped the price of the 325i to 330i about 4-5k. I'd hope the same bump would occur to the 335i and then the M3 would ring in at 50-55k starting. If I can outfit a 335i at 45k with just leather, sport, paint, I'll be happy.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    So a 340HP 335i would get you back to BMW even when you all holla that its not about HP or speed ??? Hmmmm..... We'll see how the 335i turns out, and what price you'd have to pay to acquire one....

    Right, it's not all about HP and speed..... but when you add HP and speed to an existing BMW with the handling and feel, then it's even better!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Right on. Like a sub-par M3 at sub-par M3 prices.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    For my happiness 2k is well worth it.

    I totally agree with you.

    Just consider that drivers as picky and enthusiastic as you and I are in the minority. For 90% of buyers out there, the only significant difference between these two cars is the cargo configuration and badge on the hood.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Right, it's not all about HP and speed..... but when you add HP and speed to an existing BMW with the handling and feel, then it's even better!

    All of these on a 70MPH freeways ? The most notable thing about these cars is their pronounced hash rides where you feel all the ruts and imperfections of the road. If that is your idea of driving, more power to you.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Then what's all of the hoopla about more horsepower and razor edge handling. If none of the that mattered, the public would have spoken and we'd all be driving Kias and Hyundias. You can't get razor edge handling in a car that has a soft suspension. And what good is 300 horses if most of us live in a traffic clogged suburban or urban area, where average speeds are 20-25mph?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The most notable thing about these cars is their pronounced hash rides where you feel all the ruts and imperfections of the road. If that is your idea of driving, more power to you

    I want to feel it all come through my steering wheel. :D
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If i have to put up with how unreliable BMWs are, then I want the car to be ludicrously fun

    You are a rare breed indeed amongst performance car buyers! Unlike you, if my BMW would have major reliability issues---I would seek any car but a BMW.

    Just after my warranty expired I received a 5.5k dollar bill of repairs at a BMW dealership. Got a alternative quote from an independent of $650(brake pad replacements). If I had to pay 5.5k in repairs I can guarantee you I would be owning a Japanese performance-luxury sedan.

    So after 7 years why do I still own my Bimmer--because currently my car's maintenance costs can out-Lexus any Lexus.

    If I am going to enjoy any performance car(though I am pushing the definition of performance by calling my 168hp 99 BMW323 a performance car) then it would have to be reliable!

    To each their own!!
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "though I am pushing the definition of performance by calling my 168hp 99 BMW323 a performance car."

    I think your definition of performance is spot-on.

    You may not have M3 horsepower, but you also don't carry the extra 300 lbs., and you don't feel the road through wheels/tires that are almost a foot wide and weigh 50 lbs/corner!

    Anyone can drive a 300+ hp car quickly, but it takes real skill to go fast with only half the horses (and it's more fun).

    I'll take light weight and a responsive chasis over HP any day - that's my definition of performance.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I agree that hp is not everything, but I really like the M3 and M5. However, with respect to BMWs, I am concerned about reliability. But I must add CR does recommend the 3 series BMW because of recent good reliability ratings. :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I'll take light weight and a responsive chasis over HP any day - that's my definition of performance.

    I agree! HP in itself does not make performance.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Agreed. HP is not everything. The G35, 330c hemi and the IS350 have tons of hp. Two out of three don't impress me and that's only because I haven't driven the lexus.

    I just can't see spending 40k on a 330i e90 - great handling, nice ride, perfect interior, but lacking in verve. It's easy to improve handling with simple mods (wheels, sways, springs, etc) but really getting extreme hp comes from the factory or it requires some warranty crushing mods (like the folks who turbo their e46 330is).

    Going fast in corners driving a slow car is fun.
    Going faster in corners driving a really faster car is way more fun.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I believe the minimum hp for any car should be 240 for me to consider the car and anything over 300 hp is a waste of gas. Then again, 200 hp is good for most all purpose driving, but I like the added power. :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    How is 300 hp a waste of gas? you're assuming quite a bit.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    who needs a 400 hp vette, just a waste of gas IMHO. MB has a 12 cylindar car, why? The speed limit in most of the US is 65, so why the need of all this hp, just a waste of gas, a limited resource BTW.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    You bought a car with 250+ hp, right (TL)? So please don't babble about how one doesn't need power. We all want it. You did too, or you would have bought a cylinder camry - better gas mileage, more room, etc. These are luxury performance sedans. Performance is in the title.

    The 65 mph speed limit thing is a weak argument position regarding hp. HP has little to do with top speed or acceleration. A car with 135 hp can break the limit without breaking a sweat.

    There's nothing illegal about strongly accelerating away from the on-ramp stoplights or accelerating out of a corner strongly.

    Also many people track their cars..

    Remember this forum is about cars that luxury items. Toys! These are not necessary vehicles. They're toys.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "who needs a 400 hp vette, just a waste of gas IMHO."

    Err... The 400 hp Corvette gets 18/28 EPA. Not that different from most V6 sedans.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Take 30% off the city number for a more realistic estimate of city and stop and go.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,732
    Yes, there is a big difference between needs and wants. Nobody "needs" any of the cars in this thread. But take away "wants" and you kill capitalism and fun!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • incontrolincontrol Member Posts: 12
    Ahem! My 350 HP Corvette makes 37 MPG (highway) according to the sticker on the windshield...:)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Take 30% off the city number for a more realistic estimate of city and stop and go."

    And that applies to most other cars, including all cars in this class.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That applies to just about any car.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    OK OK, I stand corrected, cheez :P
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    And what good is 300 horses if most of us live in a traffic clogged suburban or urban area, where average speeds are 20-25mph?

    Excellent point. How many people with lots of HP under-utilize their vehicles in city/suburban mundane type of driving - going back and forth to work each day or out shopping. I suppose their answer is that they could go fast if they wanted to.

    How many have lots of HP and handling and live way out in rural areas where they can truly put handling and HP to use. Probably not too many. I see many folks in Corvettes, BMWs driving very sedately on Interstates when I pass them in one of my vehicles (minvan). Many are driving about the same pace as golden seniors in their full-size Fords and Mercurys. They don't want to be noticed by police I guess. Maybe a large point of it all is "to be seen in it" and the perceived prestige. Notice that a lot of BMW, Corvette, Hummer, etc, type of owners like to park their vehicles in the driveway of their McMansions in the suburbs rather than pulling into the garage. They will even put them in prominent angles so that drivers-by can view them better.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Wow, you're pretty smart, grouping all BMW, Corvette, and Hummer drivers into one tidy little package (can you see my tongue firmly planted in my cheek?).

    I drive my Cinnabar Red BMW pretty sedately around town and on the freeway - not much fun no matter what your speed. Except for an occasional on-ramp apex or Sunday AM country back-road romp, I basically save my tires/brake pads for the racetrack, where I can really enjoy them in a controlled environment.

    Oh yeah, I always park my BMW in the garage. It keeps my car cleaner longer, which means I wash/wax less frequently. It also protects the dash, seats, and paint from premature fading or cracking, and helps keep the interior temperature more comfortable year-round. Finally, it also keeps the car out of view of potential thieves.

    So much for stereotypes, huh?
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "...Notice that a lot of BMW, Corvette, Hummer, etc, type of owners like to park their vehicles in the driveway of their McMansions in the suburbs rather than pulling into the garage. They will even put them in prominent angles so that drivers-by can view them better."

    How many garages are big enough to fit a Hummer? That's my guess as to why you see them in the driveways.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Wow, you're pretty smart, grouping all BMW, Corvette, and Hummer drivers into one tidy little package (can you see my tongue firmly planted in my cheek?).

    You are misquoting me. You said that I said "all", but I used the term "lot". Big difference. My quote from previous message:

    "Notice that a lot of BMW, Corvette, Hummer, etc, type of owners like to park their vehicles in the driveway of their McMansions in the suburbs rather than pulling into the garage."
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    we're here to talk about the cars, not our impressions of the drivers ...
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Yes, it's dangerous to gun it in traffic, and you are likely to get a big ticket. My wife and I go driving to the CA Gold country where there are few cars and people, and then open it up. ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "You are misquoting me... I used the term "lot"."

    A stereotype is a stereotype. Comments like that are insulting, and don't belong here.
  • dfc3dfc3 Member Posts: 87
    Smart Money magazine came out with their rankings of the 2006 cars by class - they rank the Audi A4 as best in this class.... Of course, for you HP fans, this is one of the lower ones in those terms.
  • dfc3dfc3 Member Posts: 87
    Not saying I agree with the study... just citing it
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    what was their rationale for that odd pick?
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Infiniti announced pricing for the 2006 G35 sedan. Base prices rose by $300, less than 1%. Prices of all packages stayed the same, even though they added Bluetooth and Sat. Radio.

    "The 2006 G35 sedan adds minor features.

    Enhancements to the 2006 G35 Sedan include:
    · Bluetooth® Hands-Free Phone system and satellite radio added to all Premium Packages
    · New exterior color – Liquid Platinum"

    "GARDENA, Calif. (Sept. 13, 2005) – Infiniti, the luxury division of Nissan North America, Inc., today announced 2006 model year pricing on the Infiniti G35 sedan. The 2006 G35 sedan adds minor enhancements for 2006, including available Bluetooth® Hands-Free Phone System, available satellite radio (XM® or Sirius™ providers) and a new exterior color – Liquid Platinum.

    The 2006 G35 sedan is offered in three well-equipped models. The G35 sedan model features a starting Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $31,300, while the G35 6MT model features a MSRP of $31,050. The G35 AWD model, with the ATTESA E-TS Intelligent all-wheel drive system has a MSRP of $33,100."
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I care. Thanks for the info. Reminds me BMW needs to wake up and offer bluetooth as a standard option.
  • esfoadesfoad Member Posts: 210
    have they integrated the satellite antenna or are they still using the black "add-on" style?
  • minarets1minarets1 Member Posts: 49
    i am curious as to see how the Bluetooth will be displayed without NAV
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Why do you need a display with bluetooth? A wireless headset doesn't have a display and it works in conjunction with a cell phone. same principle...the car becomes one giant wireless headset.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    billyperks, I need for you to drop me an email as soon as possible - pat AT edmunds.com - thanks!
  • dfc3dfc3 Member Posts: 87
    Not sure... they mention their methodology and sources - but some of it seems to be their road testing.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The great thing about magazines and the internet is that it makes an opinion seem very important. Quite frankly, there are a few magazines that really see that a car is to get you from point A to point B reliably and inexpensively. Well to the masses (as opposed to the super-rich) inexpensive is below $25K. A Toyota Avalon at $40K or a BMW 5 series at $60K, while certainly nice cars don't fulfill the missive of inexpensive.

    So to that end, all magazines that are self proclaimed car-review specialists get reviewed and the information promptly ignored.

    Having said that, I like cars over $25K also. But most magazines such as Forbes, Money, etc that publish these recommendations carry the same weight as my friends opinion.
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