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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,948
    Since you quoted him, I didn't think it necessary. If the quote you pulled wasn't representative of your argument ... well, let's just say you might want to be more careful and direct in the future to avoid confusion. No harm done.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    meademeade Member Posts: 2
    I am trying to decide which one is the better value. I need a car that will handle well on bad roads as I live in the upper midwest. I know the A4 Quattro will be less expensive, but am concerned about reliability after reading many postings. Any thoughts would be appreciated?
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Assumption: When you say, "I need a car that will handle well on bad roads as I live in the upper midwest." What you are really saying is, "I need a car that can absorb rough roads and pot holes without destroying wheels and tires.

    I would think that either would be sufficient, assuming of course that you don't opt for the Sport Package on the A4 2.0T (which has the same rubber as does the A4 3.2). It all rests with the amount of distance between the rim and the tread. Consider the following:

    Audi A4 3.2: Tire: 235/45 R17 -- Sidewall height: 4.20"
    BMW 325i & xi: Tire: 205/55 R16 -- Sidewall height: 4.44"
    Audi A4 2.0T: Tire: 215/55 R16 -- Sidewall height: 4.66"

    As you can see, the non-SP version of the A4 2.0T has the greatest side wall height while the narrower tread of the 325i will allow it to cut through the snow better. Which one is the best? If you want AWD and a true SP, then your only option is the A4.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    poodog13poodog13 Member Posts: 320
    I am trying to decide which one is the better value. I need a car that will handle well on bad roads as I live in the upper midwest. I know the A4 Quattro will be less expensive, but am concerned about reliability after reading many postings. Any thoughts would be appreciated?

    Audi's are getting killed in reliability ratings lately. Are you committed to an entry-level luxury sedan? Those w/ low profile tires & billed as "great handling" will almost certainly provide a rough ride in upper midwest roads (i.e. pothole city). Maybe consider something along lines of Acura MDX if you want the luxury feel and the good ride quality.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Maybe consider something along lines of Acura MDX if you want the luxury feel and the good ride quality."

    At the expense of any decent handling at all. Any 3-Series or A4, even without the Sport Package will be able to run rings around an MDX. Geez, I cannot even in my weirdest dreams (nightmares actually) imagine cross shopping an MDX with either of the two German sedans meade is looking at.

    Thought #2, maybe meade is looking for a sedan that has a manual transmission, that in and of itself would rule out an MDX.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    mradelmradel Member Posts: 1
    I just traded my 4 year old 325xi in for a A4 Cabriolet. That is Audi's 3.0 AWD convertable. I believe that I may trade my loyalty to Audi for good. I also have a BMW X3. The A4 did go for $50K but it is a solid, luxurious performance vehical. A big reason for the trade is that I was tired of taking the BMW to the shop. The 325xi had recently developed rattles in the back seat that prevented me from driving it or being a passenger. I love the A4! Many things seem "smarter" in the Cabriolet. The transmission is a fancy multitronic breed and is very nice. Many of the techno features seem better. The luxury inside is more plush in the Audi. Have yet to see how it is in four years, however many reviews out there point at this model as being a solid value.
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    bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I just traded my 4 year old 325xi in for a A4 Cabriolet. A big reason for the trade is that I was tired of taking the BMW to the shop.

    Umm, you're tired of taking your BMW to the shop...... so you bought an Audi?!?! Yikes....
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    potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    So, taking an Audi to the shop isn't as tiresome?
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    bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    So, taking an Audi to the shop isn't as tiresome?

    My point was that Audi tends to have a worse reliability/service record than BMW.... It certainly isn't an upgrade, which is what the original poster was implying.
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    potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    bdr,

    M bad, I pressed the wrong "reply" button. Sorry.
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    lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    Here's another piece of anecdotal evidence: a work colleague of mine bought one of these. After less than a year she either sold it or got them to take it back on a lemon law case due to the amount of time it spent in the shop. Hope your luck is better.
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    jmairejmaire Member Posts: 3
    I just purchased an a4 and didn't look into the reliability of it prior to leasing, but I had a 2004 325i. It was in the shop a lot, all because of computer problems, I almost think they over enginer some of those cars with too many gadgets. The computer system would malfunction every couple weeks and I would have to take it in, finally they took the car back and i ended up getting an X5. Never had any problems with the X5 and haven't had any yet with the audi, which I love by the way!
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    pgsmithpgsmith Member Posts: 24
    Maybe the Audi shop has different magazines... ;)
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    The only real contenders in this class are the BMW 3 series, Infiniti G35, and Leuxus IS 250/350

    A4 - for those who cannot afford an A6 (plus it is outdated)
    C-Class - for those who cannot afford an E-Class (plus it is outdated)
    TL - nice car, but it seems a little large for this segment
    CTS - no serious lux/sport sedan fan would even consider this atrocity

    Buckle up and hold on, because the new "big three" in this segment are going to be churning out some fantastic cars in the upcoming years!!!

    Be looking forward to the new IS500 V8 coupe and BMW twin-turbo 3 series coupe!
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The A4 and C Class are only for people who can't afford the A6/E-Class?

    You believe this, yet don't believe the 3-Series and IS are only for people who can't afford the 5-Series/GS?

    I've always felt this line of reasoning (and it pops up here at Edmunds often) lacks merit in general, but applying this reasoning to Audi and M-B but not to BMW and Lexus just seems ignorant to me.
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I think you need to learn about three little letters - I, M, and O.

    The TL seems too big?

    You obviously haven't checked the dimensions of the G35 lately - 3500# and 112" wheelbase!?!?

    No serious lux/sport sedan fan would consider the CTS?

    You've never driven it, have you? You may not care for it (I don't either, BTW), but it is a capable performer and satisfying to drive.

    "Big 3" huh? IMO, there are at least 9 players in this segment (and Subaru and Mazda are knocking on the door and stealing sales). All of these companies have exciting cars on the horizon.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "A4 - for those who cannot afford an A6 (plus it is outdated)"

    Hmmm, it seems to me that the A4 in Quattro guise wins plenty of races (over the 3-Series and others) in the European car formulas. How is it not a contender?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo

    [edit]

    Ohhh, I see fedlawman took the bit in his mouth as well. ;-)
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    The 3 series is currently the most sought after sport sedan, BMW designs it for people that are looking for a 3 series experience. MB designs the c-class for people that want a mercedes but cannot afford an E-Class price tag.

    The Lexus ES is built more for people that cannot afford their higher models.

    MB and Audi must feel this way too, since they put very little effort into their designs!

    I drove a CTS at GM event in Fall 2004...it's plain garbage. Drove like an Abrams tank and had an outdated interior.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Suffice to say that the above list of comments are your opinion and not true facts. Well, that may not be totally true; they are indeed "facts" to you.

    The flip side is that I will take issue with your assertion that the IS is a true contender. Geez, that car is simply a poseur car, especially with the Automatic only IS350. Yeesh!

    So, are my opinions/factoids any more accurate than yours? I doubt it. :blush:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    Come on man it is certainly NOT a poseur car. It's very fast and handles well, great engine and is based on a brand new platform.

    When I see a C-Class and an A-4 I just see that their respective companies simply have these cars available for people that like their brands but dont' want to pay a huge price tag. What did audi do with their "redesign?" Gave it all red tail lights and a beard!!

    Take a look at the A8L...gorgeous!! Why didn't as much thought go into improving the A4?

    Conversely, when BMW made the e90 3 series, they knew that it was immensely important to their brand, and they made huge improvements to it to respond to what 3 series customers were looking for, (more modern styling, more power, more lxury) and it's selling very well.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Come on man it is certainly NOT a poseur car. It's very fast and handles well, great engine and is based on a brand new platform."

    Ahhh, I think you got my point. To me, ANY car in this class that cannot be had with a true three pedal manual transmission is a poseur car. My "opinion", which is of course, a "Fact" to me and ONLY me. ;-)

    Regarding your comparison of the 3-Series and A4 vis-à-vis the other cars in their lineup, that doesn't really hold water either. Why? Simply because the Audi A8 and A6 redesigns typically happen before the A4 (just as the 3-Series was the last BMW to be Bangalized). That having been said, Audi has a history of "Face Lifting" the A4 just prior to a complete redesign, and this seems to be the case here as well, given that an all new A4 is due out next year. As such, I think you've jumped the gun in your analogy by several months at the very least.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    So are auto 3s and A4s (makes up about 80%-90% of sales, depending on who you ask) poseur cars?

    It was just a response to the market, maybe a mistake for Lexus, but not a huge one since the market for manuals is very small.

    I would like to enjoy a manual, but I just spend too much time in heavy traffic to deal with that.
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    nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,434
    Are different things to different people.

    Come on man it is certainly NOT a poseur car. It's very fast and handles well, great engine and is based on a brand new platform.

    I've driven the IS350. It certainly is FAST. Probably one of the fastest cars I've (in my short 14 years of driving exeprience) ever driven next to my Dad's '66 427 Corvette Roadster and a family friend's '89 Porsche 944 Turbo. I didn't like the way it handled, lots of body roll & too softly sprung my tastes (The copious use of I & my denotes this is in fact an opinion, not fact).

    As far as the stick thing goes, Lexus offers a manual in the IS250, it wouldn't hurt for them to put one in the IS350. If they don't sell, just yank it from production after the first 2 years. Simple as that. BMW, Audi, MB, Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti all offer 3 pedal versions of their respective cars in this segment. No matter how few manuals they sell, it is better than sending them to someone else's dealership.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

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    blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    TL =large
    CTS an uninteresting/uninvolving/poorly engineer junkpile, imho (and i have driven it)
    A4 = lethargic
    C class = decent but no fun
    TSX = fun, needs more power and rwd
    A3 = fun, nimble, quick, great tranny
    Is250/350 = banal, no personality, understeering monster with a horrendous transmission
    G35 - quick, brutish, in your face, rough but still entertaining
    Mazdaspeed6 - quick, wallowy in corners, cruddy clutch, poorly geared, high strung and not very luxurious
    Legacy gt 2.5 - quick, unrefined, not worthy of its 28k sticker. more like 22-23k car.
    e90 330i - underpowered, bad tranny, sublime handling, good feedback

    I opted for the e90. I'll pick it up in munich in less than 3 weeks. I'm not wholly satisfied with it (my e46 is a far more engaging car to drive) but it'll have to do as the pickings in this segment are pretty much worthless to me. It's a two year lease, my eye on the purported 335i that will arrive in 07 or 08.

    Just my opinions. I voted with my money though, so this wasn't a hyopthetical exercise.
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "I would like to enjoy a manual, but I just spend too much time in heavy traffic to deal with that"

    You suffer so much traffic that you can't own a manual tranny, yet you need a $35,000 sedan with sport suspension and 306hp?

    Your logic is astounding neko! Sorry I ever doubted you...ROTFLMAO!
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    And your personality is "astounding."

    Why do you have to resort to personal attacks? I don't get why you MT afficionados are so pompous, whether you're driving a honda civic or a 5 series.

    If a 35,000 sedan with sport suspension and 250-300 hp is so "illogical" then why do so many people drive them?

    And if you didn't like my analysis, check out blueguydotcoms, who said that they all pretty much suck :surprise:
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    jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    MOST people drive automatic transmission Camrys and Accords if they don't drive an SUV.

    This board is an alternate universe where each sedan is compared to a mythical sports machine that can outrun a Corvette, outhandle a Porsche 911, and still get front row valet parking when you go out to dinner with 4 people in the car. I want power and handling (at a price I can afford) in a comfortable, good-looking sedan.

    Most of this class is even sold with automatic transmissions against our sport sedan wishes. Nirvana for me would be a manual 4 door M3 at a $40k base price.
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    nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,434
    Nirvana for me would be a manual 4 door M3 at a $40k base price.

    You're a few years too late for that. The last 4 door M3 was the E36 produced from 1997-1999 (I think) that could be had for around $40K)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

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    meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    I want power and handling (at a price I can afford) in a comfortable, good-looking sedan

    Then buy an Acura TL. For $31,000 you get great performance, handling, fuel economy, fit & finish, safety, comfort, electronics, looks .....etc.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Then buy an Acura TL. For $31,000 you get great performance, handling, fuel economy, fit & finish, safety, comfort, electronics, looks .....etc."

    Simultanious translation for the preceeding post: etc=FWD :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,506
    Well put.

    The 3 is my first choice next time, but the G35 is 2nd. CTS & Merc C are tied for 3rd.

    That said, my present vehicle (with a manual) is hanging in there. No rush. I actually bought it, as I will the next.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
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    jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    and it is hands down the car I would buy for my wife or sister. My younger brother gets the G35 as it is less money and more power. Haven't figured the IS 350 out, unless it is me in 10 years when I get too lazy to shift and like the service and reliability Lexus offers.

    I'm keeping my 2 year old 330i performance package manual. I really like the fact that I average 30+ mpg doing 75 mph, have almost sports car handling with decent acceleration, and a few luxury features like heated leather sports seats and Xenon lighting.
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "I don't get why you MT afficionados are so pompous"

    I'm not an "MT afficionado." My Volvo is a quiet and comfortable automatic tranny car. It's got a soft suspension and 170 hp - perfect for rush hour.

    "If a 35,000 sedan with sport suspension and 250-300 hp is so "illogical" then why do so many people drive them?"

    I don't know. You tell me.
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    Gee I don't know....you must be right and everyone else must be stupid, I guess.
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    dfc3dfc3 Member Posts: 87
    Well... different people look at different things - and rank things differently in order of importance. Someone wrote (about 20 posts ago) that the MB C-series is for those who can't afford the E-series. HAH! Total B.S., IMO. I want a small maneuverable car with a tight turning radius and a high performance engine. The TL doesn't give that. Neither does the MB E-series. The C-series does. For that matter, the 3-series (BMW) does as well, not quite to the same degree but close. I'd never consider the TL (too wide a turning radius, too big) or the E-series for the same reasons.
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    lexus_jnlexus_jn Member Posts: 102
    Neko,

    Rumor says Lexus will offer a manual for the 2007 model. Not sure if it's going to happen but let's wait and see.

    Lexus will bring IS300 back in the fall this year. Not sure how many trims but they sure have more horsepower than current IS250 models.

    btw, which dealer did you purchase your IS350 from? I got quite a deal at Lexus of Naperville. Woodfield (Schaumburg) & Arlington (Palatine) did not give me a lot of room for negotiation and hence I ended buying at Naperville dealer.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    my eye on the purported 335i that will arrive in 07 or 08.

    I heard that the 335i will be sold solely as a coupe/convertible. If that is the case then I am not interested in the 335i.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If a 35,000 sedan with sport suspension and 250-300 hp is so "illogical" then why do so many people drive them?

    I dont care if 6 billion in this globe drive one. I want mine with a stick.

    Why do you have to resort to personal attacks? I don't get why you MT afficionados are so pompous, whether you're driving a honda civic or a 5 series.

    I like to have the option of manual when I buy a car. Does that make me pompous?
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    "I like to have the option of manual when I buy a car. Does that make me pompous?"

    No, but your opinion of people that drive an AT does.

    "I dont care if 6 billion in this globe drive one. I want mine with a stick."
    yaaaaaaaaaaaaay! good for you, Dewey!
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    I looked at Woodfield McGrath and Arlington, nobody seemed to have much inventory for the 350. None of them would negotiate too much. I ended up going to Woodfield just because they had the color I wanted come in.

    They are very nice at Woodfield and McGrath, Arlington is kind of creepy, feels more like a chevy dealer there.
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ...
    I wish I could decide whether or not a car was worthy of my hard-earned money based simply on seeing one in a lot. ...

    You can. If you don't like the way it looks, it's not worth your money. What's hard about that? :confuse:
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    No, but your opinion of people that drive an AT does.

    Your tranny choice is your choice. Why should other people's opinions bother you?
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    I don't know, why don't you tell us?

    I don't care if someone drives an MT or AT, but you obviously look down on those that drive AT
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ...
    I drove a CTS at GM event in Fall 2004...it's plain garbage. Drove like an Abrams tank and had an outdated interior.

    You didn't mean it that way, but that would actually be a compliment. The Abrams tank drives quite well. It can literally turn on a dime. There's not a car on the planet that can remain flatter in a turn. And if it had ABS, it could probably stop from 60MPH in under 80'. :surprise: :P :P
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... I want a small maneuverable car with a tight turning radius and a high performance engine. The TL doesn't give that. Neither does the MB E-series. ...

    Huh? :confuse: The TL has a 260-something HP engine. And you do know there's a such thing as the E500 and E55 AMG? :confuse: When's the last time you did some research?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    but you obviously look down on those that drive AT

    I do :confuse:
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    neko608neko608 Member Posts: 58
    whoops that wasn't you that said that earlier. sorry.
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    quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "... I want a small maneuverable car with a tight turning radius and a high performance engine. The TL doesn't give that. Neither does the MB E-series. ...

    Huh? The TL has a 260-something HP engine. And you do know there's a such thing as the E500 and E55 AMG? When's the last time you did some research"

    I'll try to respond for him....note the bolded part. The TL has a 260 HP engine but doesn't come close on the bolded part....especially the turning radius. You might need to return to school to learn how to read a sentence containing an "and"....hint, it means both things have to be true.
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Neither the TL nor the E-class are LARGE cars and they're both maneuverable. Your point was??
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    quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "Neither the TL nor the E-class are LARGE cars and they're both maneuverable. Your point was??"

    I was just commenting on the TL. According to theautochannel.com here are some turning ratios for cars in this class....

    2006 IS250 = 35.5'
    2006 G35 = 36'
    2006 330i = 36.1'
    2006 E series = 37.4'
    2006 TL = 39.7'

    2006 Crown Victoria = 40.3'

    Now do you see the point? The TL has a turning ratio MUCH closer to that of a Crown Victoria than to other cars in this class. See how someone could say that the TL isn't a "small maneuverable car with a tight turning radius ".

    Not just my opinion either, I have read many reviews by people who liked the TL who complained about the turning radius and how that makes maneuvering in tight spaces (parking garages for example) a pain.
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