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http://www.taxplanet.com/taxnews/energy042502/energy042502.html
According to my interpretation of the cryptic text of this bill, it looks like this year Hybrid Civic owners should get about $500 basic "hybrid" tax credit (based on the ratio of power for the electric motor to the gas engine in the Hybrid Civic) and about $1000 tax credit for fuel efficiency if this bill gets signed into law. I hope the IRS will issue specific guidelines about how much tax credit will be applicable to different model and makes of hybrid vehicles.
Disclaimer: I am not a CPA or tax attorney, and this bill is not even yet signed into law, so do your homework before you plan or claim your tax deductions.
Anyway, This is my first time to buy a new car and my fiancee and I are having an endless debate on whether to buy the Honda civic Ex or the Honda civic Hybrid. So we need to come up with a decision now and we need all your help and insights about which one to choose. We're worried though, that we can't get a good deal with the Hybrid since it just came out and not always in stock. Looking forward for any information you can give. Thanks so much
Give the rebates to cars that get good mileage, and don't give it to vehicles that still guzzle gas even with the hybrid technology.
The way the proposed tax credit bill is written, the fuel efficiency part of the tax credit is proportional to how much better fuel efficiency (mpg) a hybrid vehicle gets compared to the current average fuel efficiency of vehicles in the same weight class. This is not too bad as it provides an incentive for auto makers to improve fuel efficiency.
It would be much better if there was a second component to the fuel efficiency tax credit that was proportional to the absolute fuel efficiency, but this could be tricky since then auto makers could get away with making lighter and lighter cars to qualify for this credit instead of improving the fuel efficiency of their engines.
Overall, I don't have a problem with how the fuel efficiency part of the hybrid tax credit is worded in the proposed bill, but it would be much better if they improved the wording for the part of the tax credit that is proportional to the ratio of electric/gas power provided by the engine. I guess the idea was to eliminate the possibility of car makers putting in a wimpy electric motor just to qualify the vehicle as "hybrid".
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020515/ap_wo_en_fe/fea_us_hybrid_cars_1
One thing -- this car is not made for super-long steep climbs. Driving up the Grapevine on I-5 driving down to Los Angeles, the IMA (battery) runs out so with just the gas engine, we have to drive slow in the right-side lanes. Otherwise, this car is awesome and we love it totally.
As for car prices -- I queried roughly four DOZEN dealers in SF Bay Area (I threw a pretty wide net -- all the way up to Sonoma/Napa, east to Tracy, south to Bakersfield) and Los Angeles area combined. A small handful were "guaranteeing" MSRP but they didn't have the cars in stock (when the price is guaranteed for seven days but the car isn't due in for 14 days, what happens to the sticker price?).
My experience is, TALK TO THE SALESMAN. If you show that you are serious, he will lower the price for you. Our dealer was asking for $5000 OVER sticker, and we talked them down to only $1200 over sticker. Keep shopping, and show them you are willing to walk if they don't lower their price to something reasonable.
Hey you SF Civic Hybrid owners (well, East Bay)! I keep my eyes peeled but I haven't seen any of you yet! I look for the new Civic back-end WITH the front mast antenna (which I think only Ford Focus and Prius seem to have right now). I'll keep looking! :-)
Unreal.
Glad you like your car. I take it you paid list?
The car is about making an important, at least in the hybrid owners mind, statement. I would venture to say that the statement of being conservation minded is more important to most hybrid owners than saving money. I don't own one but as a potential customer for the Honda hybrid this would be my motivation for owning one. Whereas a low volume sports car projects the image some may want portrayed, it isn't necessarily the image that others want portrayed. I would love to own a car that could get 50mpg and hold 4 people comfortably. Will have to get a S2000 to satisfy my sporting side.
Just respect others decisions and prices they pay.
Best,
Michael
But too often people confuse disagreement with criticism. In a true discussion, we each try to understand the other's rationale. Ultimately we may disagree and might not make the same choice, but that is not criticism.
To me, the outstanding attribute of a hybrid vehicle is its fuel economy, therefore, to evaluate its cost/value in other than economic terms is an exercise that I cannot appreciate, but that is not criticism. If someone desires to "make a statement" by whatever means is legally available to them, that too is there prerogative, but I will point out that the statement intended is not necessarily what is perceived by others who have different points of view.
I agree with the sprit of the rest of this post, however, I am more optimistic about accounting for the price difference of a hybrid Civic vs the regular Civic. If you include the benefits of a $1500 to $2000 potential tax break, you may actually be able to make up for the price difference over 3-6 years in gas savings. Of course, this will depend on how many miles you drive per year. Also, if gas prices go up for any reason over the next few years (hey, we were paying $2/gallon here in California a couple of years ago), you may be able to recover the difference in a shorter period.
These kind of ridiculous comparisons do not add any credibility to environmentalist's goals.
You can make a valid argument against people who drive big SUV's when all they really need is a small car most of the time, (or even a minivan, which usually gets better mileage and has more cargo space) but please, let's make comparisons about like sized vehicles.
Hybrid Civic versus VW diesels, for example or other fuel efficient compact cars, past and present.
Don't also forget how you might spend that extra $5000 your willing to spend on a Hybrid Civic or Prius on other more useful environmentally sound items, like energy efficient light bulbs, better house insulation, or a new more efficient refrigerator, etc.
I rest my case.
I'm sure over time, prices will fall and this may change. Right now, it's a novelty and will not save any money for you.
We should thank all the people who are buying them now, not giving them a hard time for paying too much. These are going to be the cars of the near future (Fuel cells will probably take over after) and anyone who buys one is making the world a better place for you and your kids so who cares how much he or she paid for it.
Thank you everyone and I hope you enjoy your cars.
1) Hybrid Civic's front grille has only two"strips" of open air flow between
the headlights (Civic has three "strips" of open air flow)
2) Hybrid Civic's front grille has a larger "H" badge than Civic
3) Hybrid Civic's lower front air dam is deeply "scooped" to suck in air
(more so than Civic)
4) Hybrid Civic has a centered roof antenna (Civics since 1999 do not; their
antenna are on the back window)
5) Hybrid Civic comes in Opal Silver Blue Metallic and Shoreline Mist
Metallic, two colors not available in Civic (though the other two colors,
Taffeta White and Titanium Metallic, are also Civic colors)
6) Hybrid Civic has a rear spoiler, a small almost-flush unit; Civic does
not come with, and aftermarket are larger with space beneath
7) Hybrid Civic comes with allow wheels; Civic does not, unless special
ordered or aftermarket
8) The taillights are slightly redesigned; Hybrid Civic has a white/clear
panel for backup lights, whereas Civic's is amber-colored
9) If you can see the rear, Hybrid Civic wears a "Hybrid" badge beneath the
right taillight, and in small dark letters, "GASOLINE·ELECTRIC" beneath the
Hybrid badge
10) Hybrid Civic will not have a sunroof/moonroof unless added aftermarket
11) Hybrid Civic's headrests are cutout in the middle, Civic's are solid
How much $$$ extra you would have to pay for custom leather on a Civic?
Here are some interior legroom numbers (inches) for comparison:
Leg Room (Front/Back)
2002 Acura 3.2TL: 42.4/35.0
2002 Audi A4: 41.3/34.3
2002 BMW 325i sedan: 41.4/34.4
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid: 42.2/36.0
2002 BMW 525i sedan: 41.7/34.1
2002 Toyota Corolla sedan: 42.5/33.2
2002 Volkswagen Jetta sedan: 41.5/33.5
2002 Volvo S60 sedan: 42.6/33.3
Here in the Austin, TX area the Civic Hybrids are going quickly. We got this CVT model right away because another buyer backed out yesterday after seeing what their car payments would be.
Rob V.
When I compared small 4 door auto sedans my top choice was the Civic. If I'm going to buy Civic, I might as well get the hybrid to make it interesting! That justified the cost differential to me.
By my estimates, without the tax break, I should break even $$ wise (over the EX Civic) in 8 years. That could improve if prices go up (which would hurt me, since my other car is a Minivan!) or we get the tax break.
Interesting your should mention the Jetta TDI. That *USED* to be my #1 choice. I test drove one, and couldn't believe how slow it was off the line. I considered it almost unsafe in a busy intersection. The sales person didn't say anything was wrong with the car, it's just how they drove.
My guess is the auto transmission is geared for a gas engine and doesn't take advantage of low-end torque. The sales person did say most people get the standard ( my wife doesn't want to learn ). That bumped the Civic to #1 (actually, the only one in the running, for a high mileage small 4-dr, that I felt comfortable sitting in)
Robert
Rob V.
In all we put in roughly 2,500 miles, and we only had to fill up the car five times. Our average came out to 52.4 miles per gallon, mostly over freeway driving at around 70mph. Outside of the Grapevine on I-5 to L.A. and some uphills going to Vegas, the roads were pretty flat and smooth.
The car ran GREAT! I'm considering getting a bra for the car, though; the bug splatters still need to get scrubbed off.
...by the way, if you live in California, YOUR MILEAGE WILL BE LOWER because your gas contains 9% oxygenate additive (usually MTBE), which does not do anything to your gas mileage other than lowering it by about 10%.
dindak, you asked if we paid list. We talked them down to $1200 above list and we were very pleased that we did.
As of this weekend, we have seen TWO other Civic Hybrids on the road in our neighborhood! Both were the same color as ours (blue metallic), and each came from different Honda dealers (I could tell because both were sporting their temporary plates with the car dealer's license plate frames).
I had the chance to test drive the Hybrid the other day. I was very impressed. We have received our first allocations of this car, 7 total. Out of the 7, six have pre-sold. I put 15 miles on the only one left.
We had one fellow who bought one last month, came back and bought another for his daughter.
We will do very well with this car, as opposed to the Insight.
Jerry
Looks like most people still think that hybrid cars give you a choice of using the electric or the gas engine and they need to be charged. Maybe the commercial will actually educate some of this crowd.
Have you seen the Letter from the Town Hall Manager on the Town Hall Welcome page? If not, you might want to follow that link to have a look.
And hang on to your seats. Change is never easy - for any of us - but resolving the Search problems we've had will be worth the pain.
Pat
Sedans Host
Sounds like you got a decent deal too.
See USA Today May 22, 2002; by David Kiley
The article states that the IRS is allowing up to $2,000 tax credit for Hybrids through 2003.
Honda and Toyota believe that their vehicles will qualify for the full $2,000. We should know in a few months.
If I find a link, I'll post it, but the Honda Civic Hybrid site mentions the $2,000 and tells you to see your "tax professional" who "knows all about it". Hope so!
In our case, the actual reduction in tax liability is too small to make any dent at all in the difference between this car and its pure gasoline-engined counterparts.
However there is a claim at http://home.nycap.rr.com/hondataxinsight/Federal%20Tax%20Law.htm that you can get a federal tax CREDIT of 10% of the cost of an electric vehicle. This makes things confusing. I'm trying to get my tax professional to sort this out. Thanks to the above poster for checking up on my language. IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.
I have enjoyed all the posts about the Hybrid, including the more critical ones. I know that I will have second thoughts about this purchase because it's evident that this car is over priced relative to its competition and it costs a whole lot more than others we were looking at. Paying list price was painful as well.
I just keep telling myself that the early purchasers of hybrid cars are helping to establish a market that will make this and better technologies available for less of a premium in the future. That should benefit everyone. It's not all altruism, of course. There is the "neatness" factor of owning a still fairly rare car with technology that you have to explain to people. But I think Hybrid owners need to be ready for very mixed reactions- this has happened to us already. Some people just love the fact that you bought this car and can't wait to see it and drive in it. Others have already read about it, are unimpressed and keep asking why you paid so much for a civic. Oh well, there are those pretty blue lights.
Here's a question for those of you with more technical and automotive knowledge than me. It would seem that this technology as it becomes better would be very useful as a way to boost performance from smaller engines without losing any fuel economy (maybe even improving it). Instead of putting the IMA system in a two seater like the insight, imagine adding its horsepower and torque to a car like the Miata. If people are willing to pay good money for larger engines to boost performance, why not pay for a hybrid engine that does the same with at no cost in mpg?
This supposes a significant drop in the price of the technology, but isn't that inevitable? Thanks for the posts.
Craig
A couple of questions: Honda says the first oil change should be at 7500 miles because of a special additive in the oil that helps everthing "seal up." Does that sound right to other owners?
Is anyone seeing better gas mileage using the cruise control (after the 600 mile break in)?
Also, has anyone seen a difference between 87 octane and say, 89 or 93 octane gasoline?
Seat height adjustment: it could use one. My Subaru Legacy Outback had it and it was great. I'd rate the seats as "OK" in the Civic Hybrid but not exceptional.
I'm still happy with the purchase. Feels good to be in the vanguard of a new generation of car, and doing my Green thing.
Rob V.
I'm not really sure about the oil changes, I'm just planning on following the recommendations.
The Hybrid uses 0-20w oil.
Jerry
jmurman42, page 187of our 2003 Hybrid owner's manual tells us explicitly that our first oil change should be at 10,000 miles. Could you please tell us why you are giving instructions that do not match the manual? Is the manual incorrect? Have you received overriding instructions from Honda that are not written in the manual? Or are you basing your recommendation on regular Civic models? Thank you.
I tried a tank of 89 octane gas and didn't find any difference in performance or MPG. I have 700 miles on mine and the best I've done so far is 44 MPG. Anyone else with similar or different results? Where's the 51 MPG?
Rob V.