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Diesel vs. Gasoline
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Thanks all for that add'l information. I am getting an F250SD and hadn't settled on an engine.
Ryan
High mileage diesels may bring more at resale, but not /that/ much more. Additionally, as someone (I forget who) pointed out, diesel maintenance on these new high-tech engines after warranty expiration can get very expensive. The prices I saw quoted were things like ~$750 per injector. A new crate V10 (not a rebuild) will probably run ~$1500 - $2000 from Ford... rebuilding it would be easy and inexpensive, if even necessary.
I'm in the position here of trying to justify the diesel to myself, and failing. Especially on long trips, running the diesel at 75-80 mph for 1,000 miles does give me a bit of a headache. If anyone can punch through the financial argument I made above, I would actually appreciate it!
Has anyone with the new '99 diesels been getting better than 18 or so mpg? I get 16 city and highway in my '93 non turbo stick, and folks I know with the '97 powerstroke were reporting 18 city 22 hwy. Have these gains really been lost?
Heck, Dodge is giving their diesels an option that's around 3.50 aren't they? That would actually seem to make a lot of sense for most recreational 1-ton drivers.
If I do get the V10, I will probably get the powerpack for it (headers and exhaust). I haven't yet had a gas engine w/o a good aftermarket exhaust after all :-). With the diesel, I probably wouldn't bother with the whole system -- I might get the exhaust though.
Of course, this defeats some of the detuning that Ford has done to ensure that the transmission doesn't blow up -- but that torque rating will be conservative. To Ford, a change from 1/10,000 failures to 1/5,000 failures is huge. For the average person, its meaningless (and transmissions aren't /that/ expensive).
However, this gives you a package that is as powerful as the diesel (albeit with a different power curve) and gets about the same mileage, for 1/2 the premium cost.
I'm still hoping that someone will contradict my mileage stats, but for Fords it looks like 13/16 mpg for the V10 and 15/18 mpg for the diesel are not unreasonable. I'm definately not happy with that diesel mileage, considering that that's about what my '93 gets and comparing it to the Cummins' (and last years powerstroke for that matter).
The diesel may well still be more reliable, but there's a good 2 rebuilds for the V10 possible even with the cost of a Powerpack system thrown in before you pay as much as the diesel. I'd like to see figures comparing mileage while towing for both diesel and gas, both with and w/o the addons, but that might take a while to get.
For me, as much as I love the feel and power of the powerstroke, I'll probably order the V10 now. I only tow about 10% of my miles, and often take long trips (Texas to Wisconsin for example) where the added highway graces could come in handy, especially if I can't order the 3.73 gears.
Why doesn't Ford offer a similar exhaust system as an option? It doesn't appear that the increased torque will overload the tranny since it is designed to handle the 500 lb-ft Powerstroke.
Factories don't like full length headers because they're a pain to make (have to be fabricated) and a real pain to install on an assembly line. Even 'premium' cars like the Cobra that get headers get shorty ones. For most people, the additional cost isn't worth the gains. For others -- there's always the aftermarket option :-)
These are 50 state legal, btw.
Thanks,
Ryan
USERNAME ENGINE MILEAGE
kirkpama V10 12
swanders V10 12
droz V10 12.5
brandot PSD 15
glt PSD 18
richflynn PSD 17
nascar88 PSD 17
hhm PSD 16 cty 24 hyw (20.5)
retiree PSD 18
This gives us ~12 mpg for the V10 and ~17.5 mpg for the PSD. Plugging those into the equation:
GAS (12 mpg):
Fuel costs: 417 gallons @ $1.10 = $458
Oil change: Standard Jiffy Lube = $ 24
---
Cost per 5,000 miles = $482
DIESEL (17.5 mpg):
Fuel costs: 227 gallons @ $1.10 = $285
Oil change: 11 quart Jiffy Lube = $ 50
---
Cost per 5,000 miles $335
Or a cost per mile for the diesel engine of $0.0294. The current premium for the PSD is listed as $3493, which gives us 118,800 miles to the breakeven point. So not as bad as it could have been, but significantly over the 80,000 miles some people are claiming.
Has anyone else seen this article? It's worth it to read, so we can comment... but it's a page long so if you don't want extra stuff, just read it at the newsstand.
Cheers,
Ryan
Thanks,
Ryan
If Dodge made a crew cab -- and I picked them over Ford -- I would definately get the Cummins.
I saw a dodge crew cab the other day, almost drove my chevy off the road while rubbernecking. I'm not sure if it was custom or not but it sure looked factory.
Airwolf,
On a recent trip to the colorado river I refilled in arizona using my normal chevron 87 octane in our dodge motorhome. The gas was so bad that I had to stop in the middle of the desert to buy all the octane boost I could. The money I saved on the cheap gas was quickly lost with that bad batch. Anyway, I have a new theory on gas...day to day driving I'll use the 87 octane stuff but on long trips and/or towing I'm using only 92. I will also carry octane boost from now on in my truck and motorhome, just in case.
Needless to say, this amazed me. If a crew cab Dodge was available I'd... well, it'd be a tough decision to make between it and the Ford. I like the SDs a lot, but [drool, groan] oh, that Cummins. Ah, well.
--
My last gas truck ('89 460) just got regular. There was no performance, mileage, or smoothness difference with higher octane gas whatsoever. I'll probably run 2,000 miles with each grade in the new truck (after break-in) just to see, but I've found that if you do long enough tests and log your consumption carefully that you don't see a gain (assuming no knocking with 87).
A few years back I remember seeing outrageously low diesel prices in Utah. It was due to the truckers paying fuel taxes by tax forms once a month, quarter, year.... They had a permit number that was put on the truck stop's invoice for audit purposes. (Yeah right.) I paid at the tax at the POS because I didn't know what a permit number looked like.
Rich
What always surprised me was that the fleet would get any taxes back. I expected each state to keep what they already got, but I guess the feds got involved in order to keep interstate commerce going.
http://www.auto.com/industry/qgm9.htm
6.6L V8 direct-injection turbo
the dealer i was at last weekend told me that he's heard between the lines that the new diesel will be in the 300 hp, 500 ftlb range. Y2000 is a ways off yet, and lots could change.
He told me he decided against the diesels and the powerstroke after talking to a couple of individual owners, 1 company owner with a fleet of powerstrokes, and another friend who mechanics at the local ford dealer. They all said the same thing. EXPENSIVE long term costs. The fellow who mechanics says all he does is replace powerstroke injectors and electronics everyday, all after warranty. Very few trucks, he says, leave the shop for less than $3K in repairs. When you pay $4500 for the engine to begin with, where are the savings?
This trucks weighs 14000 empty. Thats a lot of load to tote around, and I wouldn't suspect the 454 to get better than 9~10 mpg with the 4.63 rear. Has anyone else put a gas motor on such a heavy truck before?
If you wondering, the our friend with the fleet of superduty powerstrokes has them in trucks that all weigh about 11,000 empty, and with 5.13 rear, gets about 7-8 mpg. again, where is the savings?
Markbuck,
One thing I will dispute with you. Yes, a diesel's hp peak is near its redline, but it's designed to run at redline all day. Unlike gasoline engines, diesels are intended for steady rpm workloads. You can run a diesel all day at redline and it will start right up after you turn it off. Been there done that with my Ram's Cummins. This is why most high-output generators are diesels - they can take the punishment of running at the same max-hp rpm all day long.
I felt I got my engine free because I paid $3600 under sticker anyway. That's strictly a matter of personal determination. Obviously, if the truck costs $3500 less, than the non-diesel would also cost that much less.
I still measure a breakeven factor. For me, it's based on getting 50% better fuel economy, and paying the same for diesel as regular unleaded here in north NJ. I'll have broken even before the 5 year loan is up, so for me, it's a good deal.
If your off-roading involves some pretty hefty bouncing from rough terrain, you will probably like the V10 better, because the diesel weighs substantially more and will cause a lot more downforce on your front end - could lead to premature suspension wear.
Other than that, the diesel will give better fuel economy, will require about the same amount of maintenance, and will be louder. The V10 will be smoother, equal in towing power, and very sensitive to impurities thanks to all the computer controlled equipment.
It's an honest toss up. I love my Cummins powered Ram, and here in NJ, a light duty diesel is exempt from all emissions testing (!), so I even have a little less aggravation at inspection.
Cost not a factor, I would probably want the diesel, due to performance.
But factor in cost, and thats really what its all about. I travel East, central, and south texas, and diesel is generally priced in between 87 octane and 89 octane gasoline. (It has come down recent year.) So its very hard to make up the price difference over a gas motor on mileage alone, especially with recent gas motor improvs.
But i seem to be the only one mentioning repair costs. New gas engines are excellent designed, and are long lasting. there is really nothing to wear out on them anymore, and i would say over 200k miles, a gas motor should reasonably need maybe just the peripherals replaced-(alternator, a/c, waterpump, etc.)
But diesels are different. You've got high tech fuel pumps that generally cost over $1000-1500 to fix. I've never heard of a fuel pump making it over 100-120k. If it does last that long, engine power is poor. Chevy's fuel pumps are fancy electronic gadgets that generally last around 100k, and cost over $1400 to fix.
Injectors are outrageous. the simple injectors like ford used to use in the 7.3 are no more. The Powerstroke gets its power basically from the fancy electric-hydraulic injector setup. but when it goes out, (between 100k-150k, from every PSD owner I know) they cost you big time. You could buy an entire gas motor for what you pay to fix a powerstroke.
God be with your checking account if you turbo goes out.
assuming gas motor lasts 250k miles
gas motor costs(no fuel, no accessory repair)-- ~$500 for big block engine + 3 or 4 tuneups
diesels-- ~$4500 for initial + 2x the cost for regular maintenance + ~$1500-$3500 for normal component wear (after many miles)
the diesels don't last forever, and they are expensive to fix. mileage just can't make up for that difference.
for folks like kcram, if they really get that good of a price on the truck and the fuel, then your only worry is the longevity. I haven't yet known of any major recurring problems with the Cummins, mainly cuz Dodge isn't into the fleets around here as much as GM and Ford, and I don't know any personal owners. i really don't know that much about the Cummins, other than stories from here.
Anyway, from where i'm sitting, its going to be on a tank of gas.
Luckily, I still have the mechanical Cummins (1996), so the computer has nothing to do with the engine. When I said more sensitive, I was thinking more along the lines of carbon fouling, spark timing, and things like that which have no matching feature in diesels. Impurities was probably the wrong word to use. I had a spark plug die in my 302-powered F150, and the computer just about killed the whole powertrain. Both myself and the dealer initially thought the torque converter had died, because of how badly it was shifting. It took 2 hours of computer diagnostics to figure out the number 8 plug went, then just 15 minutes to fix. On a new diesel, the fuel injection is computer controlled, but the rest of the engine is still basically a hot-air explosion controlled by Mom Nature, not spark ignition controlled by Intel.
cdean,
All points well taken, and if I knew I couldn't recover the price, I'd probably still be burning unleaded myself. I too have heard nightmarish repair stories about the Ford/Navistar, which is one of the reasons I didn't go for the Ford. As for longevity, the Cummins is known to outlive the Navistar when properly maintained. The manufacturers only warrant the gas engines for 3/36, but the diesels are all 5/100. Cummins makes their own turbo unit (Navistar uses Garretts if I recall correctly), so the blower is up to the same standards as the engine. The other longevity issue could be perception and use. Diesels traditionally produce more torque, and are expected to see duty in an "abuse" environment where some feel a gas engine wouldn't stand up, thus diesels may die sooner than expected because of the workload. I would bet under *identical* operating conditions and proper scheduled maintenance, the diesel would outlive the gasoline engine.
Anybody else hear of the PSD hot start problems because of the electro-hydraulic injectors not working properly when the oil viscosity decreases?
Physics still require a properly timed and proportioned injection(s) for a diesel to perform. Also check the post by markbuck.
Greg
Hot start problems?????
Drive 100 miles across the desert with the A/C running, stop at a rest area long enough to, well... Restart the engine as normal. That's hot starting and no hint of a problem. In fact it starts quicker and easier BECAUSE of the heat in the engine.
Rich
Greg
The job title is System Engineer but most would call it Communications Network Engineer.
Rich
We are looking at a Dodge Cummins- 24 valve diesel-3/4 ton-5.9 L engine and a Dodge 3/4 ton gasoline- V-10-8L. You seem to know your engines so I thought I'd respond with a question!
Thanks!
The main advantages of the diesel are unbeatable low end torque (vs. gas engines) and better mileage. The main disadvantages are a higher initial premium, higher cost regular maintenance (oil changes, etc) and greatly increased maintenance expenses after 100K miles.
Scroll back through all responses in this forum -- you'll probably find the answer you're looking for. Give us more information about what you're wanting to do with the truck, and we can probably help you out a little more specifically :-)
I am thinking the V-10 to be a better choice for us now. We mostly carry a slide-in camper, do lots of long distance runs, and off-road a lot. Since we don't need pulling power (we've sold the 5th Wheel and no longer pull horse trailers)I just can't justify the diesel cost. I would like to hear from V-10 owners who have previously driven diesels. Are you satisfied?