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Diesel vs. Gasoline
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Is it really fair to compare the current Chevy diesel with the Cummins and Powerstroke? My friend has a 4.6L in his 2wd 1/2 ton and he thinks it's an awesome engine, but it isn't going to be pulling any heavy loads up the hills. That doesn't mean that it isn't a good engine, it's just not in the same class as the Cummins and Powerstroke. A Chevy truck with the current Chevy diesel is not going to come close to keeping pace with a similiarly equiped Dodge or Ford with the Cummins or PSD. Chevy recognized the shortcoming, which is why they contracted with Isuzu to build them a more competitive engine. The numbers speak for themselves.
Dodge Cummins: 230hp, 450 torque
Ford PSD: 235hp, 500 torque
Chevy 6.5L: 195hp, 420 torque
Dodge V-10 gas engine: 295hp, 425 torque*
Ford V-10 gas (2000 MY): 310hp, 425 torque
Chevy 7400 V-8 SF2: 290hp, 410 torque
* I thought the Dodge V-10 was 300hp and 440 torque, so the figure quoted above may be incorrect. I also thought the Chevy was at 300hp.
The Dodge V10 often gets misquoted for some reason.
Emissions states:
310 hp @ 4000 rpm, 440 lb-ft @ 2800 rpm
federal states:
310 hp @ 4000 rpm, 450 lb-ft @ 2800 rpm
The slightly lower torque figure comes from the more restrictive exhaust, but that's about it.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
So many of the diesel's bought by my co-workers are being used for around town commuting, not towing.
My two cents is only buy a Diesel if you really need it. And all of Isuzu's BS about making diesels for 50yrs is only as good as they stand behind them. Hope Chevy stands behind their new joint venture Diesel.....
The revised Cummins is still an ISB - the Dodge option code is ETH. It is only available with the 6 speed manual, and is rated at 245/505.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
Now which to buy a Gas or a diesel? I have been looking at the Ford crew cab F250 4x2.
I want to keep my next vehicle 10-20 years. I will not be towing very much at all, but i figured the diesel would last much longer with fewer problems over a long period of time. And i also like the rugged clatter ot the diesel, but this site has really confused me on which one will cost me more over the long haul. Are there a lot of problems with injectors or is this limited to a few horror stories? and how about the fuel pump, many problems with it?
I see diesel gas prices aro $1.10 a gallon here in Houston. and i drive around 10 miles each way to work. Any advice from anyone who has owned a diesel is welcomed.
Rich
Do you want the diesel just for the diesel, or do you really need the 3/4 ton truck. You said you don't tow very much. If fuel mileage and longevity is your main concern, you could get a half ton truck with a small v8 that will do the job. Chevy's small v8's are getting the same fuel mileage as the Powerstroke, and you buy a cheaper truck and cheaper engine. Fords small v8s get real close the Chevy mileage, with just as good longevity. No doubt get the gas.
Now if getting the Crew Cab is #1 concern, its different. the 5.4 would give you the best mileage, but has marginal power (maybe the Y2K are better). The v10 will give you about 5 to 6 mpg less than the diesel. But, the gas engines take virtually no maintenance, and will last just as long as the diesel. For Houston driving, you will probably get only around 16-17 with the diesel, and about 12 with the gas. For the extra $4500, and the added cost of very expensive oil changes, it will take a long time to recoup that initial investment, depending on how many miles you drive/year. Especially since in Texas, diesel is pretty much always the exact same or close to the price of gas. sounds like resale is a non-issue.
I would get the v10. but, if you really want the diesel, get what makes you happy.
I have yet to hear of any mechanical longterm probs with the new powerstrokes, i know of quite a few in service. but none of them really have lots of miles on them yet.
The V-10 doesn't have a 4.10 option. It's my understanding that the V-10/4.10 combo didn't work as efficiently as the V-10/4.30 combo.
1 Diesel engines get better mileage than gas because diesel fuel has a greater energy storage density. If you burn a pint of diesel, it gives up more heat than a pint of gas. The same is true for methane (natural gas) vs butane or propane. There is simply more stored energy in diesel fuel than gasoline.
2 The increased torque of diesel engines is partly due to the engine geometry. Diesels have a long stroke. The piston is acted upon by expanding gases for a longer time than in gasoline engines. This is also why a rifle bullet goes faster than a handgun bullet. In guns, barrel length is the "stroke".
3 Diesel engine longevity is partly due to the fact that the fuel itself has some lubricating properties. This is obvious if you've ever had diesel on your hands. It is slick. Gas is not. Some fuel ends up on the cylinder walls - making life easier for the piston rings. Engine oil does this also, but the more the better when it comes to lubrication.
I've had a diesel (a Mitsubishi) for 18 years, 250K miles. It is the highest quality truck of any type I've ever owned. Some of the reasons I love it are not mentioned in any of the other postings.
In my opinion diesels make the best 4 wheel drives. They crawl and down anything. You don't need to use the brakes near as much as with gas engines because the engine acts as an air brake. This is particularly appreciated on snow & ice. I've noticed that I can decelerate on ice by simply taking my foot off the accelerator. This has saved me many a time here in the Colorado mountains.
I went 175K miles on one clutch - and had much life left in it - but changed it when a transmission output bearing went. I feel this is because of the high torque properties of the diesel. You don't need to "feather" the clutch. Just put it in gear and lift you foot off. The engine will not stall unless you're a complete idiot.
One last point - if you need to 4 wheel through deep water - a diesel is a blessing. They do not suffer from the ignition problems of gas engines when wet.
I'm in the market for a new diesel truck - and thinking Ford or Dodge. I'd like for it to be the last truck I buy. I haul heavy trailers around - often in 4 wheel drive and sometimes in the mud. I really need a truck to stand up to extreme conditions. Any advice is appreciated.
From personal experience, I can say that I was impressed with the engine braking on my V-10. I drove up to Alaska this past January, so I got to test the effectiveness of the engine braking in some mountain passes in winter conditions with my slide-in camper in the bed.
I suspect my next truck will be a diesel. Up here in Alaska, though, I know people who make sure they start their trucks up at the office every few hours when we get a real cold snap. That concerns me a little, especially if I do some winter camping. Then again, I could always plug the block heater into my camper and crank up the generator every now and then. I've got several years to think about it.
I have not read any Trailer Life reviews on engine braking. I base my statements on experience with my own Mitsubishi turbo diesel. When I take my foot off the accelerator, engine braking is extremely effective - much more so than with any gas engine I've ever driven. Maybe Mitsubishi has figured something out that other manufacturers have not.
As I understand it, engine braking takes place as on the upstroke - as air is compressed with the valves closed. This occurs on the compression and ignition strokes. I suspect the key to getting good engine braking is that no fuel (or very little fuel) is injected on the ignition stroke. The amount of fuel injected should be minimal when your foot is off the accelerator - just enough to keep the engine at idle. A good monitoring computer should be able to determine if the truck is sitting at a stop light (hence needs some fuel on the ignition stroke) or going down a steep hill (hence needs no fuel).
If you are not getting good engine braking with a diesel I'd say too much fuel is being sent to the cylinder. If, say, you were going downhill - and took your foot off the accelerator - and no fuel was being injected - a diesel should provide superior engine braking. It takes more energy to compress air to 1/20th it's original volume than to 1/10th. With no throttle, this energy is taken from the trucks momentum - slowing it down.
I'm very curious why other diesels don't get good engine braking. It's one of the main reasons I like mine. Any theories?
http://www.jakebrake.com/ After reading this you should understand the energy returned (on the compression stroke) to the driving wheels is due to the high compression ratio and not the metering of fuel.
Gas motors have butterfly's, diesels just have big holes between the air filter and intake valves, thus....
Diesel's don't have much inherent engine braking.
Good exchange of info though the last several posts. I'd go Cummins for long engine life.....
I'd be happy with Cummins long life or Navastar power. But would not choose either, without thinking about the new Duramax 6.6 with Allison 5 spd automatic.
I have driven a 36 foot motorhome with a cummins and a Kenworth T-600 and both of them will actualy pick up speed going down a hill with-out the use of a Jake Brake. To see for your self just go down I5 just past the "Grape vine" in CA. One thing no one has mentioned is that one of the big reasons that diesels last longer is because they turn 1/3-1/2 the RPM's of a gas engine.
Now, according to Car and Driver TV, the torque on the Dodge is cut back when you get the automatic; does this mean there is a problem with the transmission?
Thanks
Every two times they go around (4strokes) they attempt to draw in their displacement of air.
On a diesel, they do, and the only work the engine is performing at small throttle settings is compressing the air followed by allowing the air to expand during the power stroke giving back most of the work.
On an otto cycle motor (gas), the butterflys are completely shut and the motor is working against a large vacuum found in the intake manifold. This is the source of engine braking. (sorta like your vacuum cleaner when you cover the end of the hose).
That help?
If you are going to use terms like otto cycle I'll believe you. So let me get this straight - my gas engine brakes better because it has a vacuum cleaner in it.
Make sense to me - how often do I change the bag?
Only kidding, this certainly clears it up for me.
Thanks
Sorry to all my Harley buddies....
site? its an unofficial Ford site. they write about a V-6 version of the powerstroke for their smaller trucks. anyone heard about this?
why don't other manufacturers put diesels in their vehicles besides 3/4 and one ton pickups--in europe and south america, diesels are often found in smaller trucks, cars, and suvs.
I've seen a diesel Grand Cherokee in Italy--ie: better milage/better torque.
I wish I could plant that idea in the automaker's heads--maybe with all the popularity of the newer diesels in full size trucks, and higher gas prices, the idea might catch on.
I assume that if Ford was prepared to spend a lot of money trying to close them down they must have got a few things right.
Chalk one up for free speech.
And diesel's efficiency over gasoline engines simply comes from the higher compression ratio. Higher pressure = higher combustion temperatures, higher temperature = higher thermal efficiency. The fuel's BTU/lb rating has nothing to do with it. Think about low compression (8:1) gas engines vs. higher compression (10:1) gas engines, the higher compression engines always have more power for a given size. They also need a fuel with higher autoignition resistance (higher octane) to keep detonation from ocurring. Diesel's (22:1) detonate on purpose, they ignite the fuel by compressing it in a cylinder with air until the combination spontaneously ignites from the heat of compression. It's inherently more efficient than spark ignition. Because they are high compression engines and designed to detonate, they are heavily built, big and thick, crank, rods, pistons, extra rings, heavy iron heads, etc. Because of this, and the fact that diesel fuel is a few steps closer to lubricating oil than gasoline, the engines typically last a lot longer. Because the compression ratio is so high, diesels are not tolerant of water intake like a gasoline engine. No clearance in the combustion chamber. Water doesn't compress well.
Makes up for efficiency by higher compression ratio and more BTU's per gallon.
Your problem is similar to most - need the engine occasionally, but not likely to recover the cost over a period of time. I would probably opt for the 360, but that is one heavy boat. Most people in our area with that size of boat find storage and only haul the boat in the local area. (For an occasional trip elsewhere, you could buy a nice run-about for less than the price of the diesel and easily haul it anywhere with the 360.) Good luck - have friends with the Dodge diesel and they usually love it - until they have to replace any parts. Major ouch.
same things are being said over and over. In a nut
shell if your going to own your truck for a long
period of time ie; 4or more years and tow heavy
loads frequently then diesel is the way to go.
If your ride is more for pleasure than work go
gas. Believe me I've tried both and the noise of a
rattling diesel is something you can't hide.
I personaly agonized over my last purchase for
quite awhile. I needed a truck with space(quad
cab)that I could drive every day to work in
comfort. But I also own a 5th wheel that weighs in
at 95k loaded. I eliminated the Ford based on
engine noise and cost. This left me with Dodge(I
considered Chevy/GMC but just didn't like em.)which wasn't to hard of a choice seeing as I had previously owned a 94' RAM 1500 w/5.9L 2WD that served me well. When I factored in the average miles per year I would put on the truck would not exceed 10K, I figured the extra 4K for the diesel would be hard to justify. I finally bought a 99' RAM 2500 quad cab 4WD w/5.9L SB automatic. I have pulled the camper four times and have found the engine/tranny do very well at about 60 mph. The gas mileage locally is about 12, towing is about 8.5 mpg. It's a matter of individual choice and how much you want to spend. I specd. mine with a special request 3.73 gears. Most sales people dont know what is available but service managers do. I've had mine for 9 months now with no problems and a whole lot of enjoyment. And I can still use the drive thru's.
Let me therefore ask you a question WHY DID YOU POST THIS TWICE?????
Sorry Andy, didn't mean to make you go through this at this forum.
When pulling a steep hill, and the auto downshifts or I manually kick the overdrive off, the tranny skips too far down. Hence, the very high RPMs. Like I said, there is that one-higher gear that could easily pull the hill at reasonable RPMs with all that torque, but you have to trick the transmission into it. The Cummins I frequently drive is my dad's, and he is the one that checked on the aftermarket fix for the problem. I will try to get in touch with him to find out what the fix was for you. But I would think someone else here would know what I am talking about. Evidently Dodge has not changed this if you are having the same problem with your '99.
PS This is not to say one cannot tow a lot with an auto trans, but a manual offers some towing benefits an auto does not. And this is from someone with an auto.
I have an 18' ski boat that weighs approximately 2500 lbs. My 99 expedition w/5.4 pulls it like a champ. I plan to purchase a F-250 Superduty along with a slide-in camper this Spring. Standard motor is a 5.4, for $600 - I can upgrade to the V-10. For $4600 - I can upgrade to the diesel. The truck will also be used for a work vehicle. I drive approximately 22,000 miles per year. I am told by the local dealer the 5.4 will do everything I need it to do. I like the V-10 option, but don't want to suffer on the gas mileage (i.e., 12 miles/gallon unloaded). Is it wise to spring for the diesel and get equivalent gas mileage as with the 5.4 (15-17 miles/gallon)? Hints: Pull the boat twice a month on average. Will use the camper, along with the boat, twice a month during the spring. and summer. Most importantly, I am not independently wealthy.
My buddies F350SD with V10 only rated for 2200 lbs camper rating. With diesel you get even less bed rating.
Buddies V10 3.73 gets about 13.5 on the highway
That brings me to another question. How heavy is your slide-in camper? Make sure you crunch some numbers. Unless you have a pop-up truck camper or the camper is specifically designed as a light weight model for smaller pickups, you will likely be way overweight with a 3/4 ton truck. Airbags and possibily adjustable shocks will be required. The GVWR of the 3.4 ton is 8,800 pounds. If the truck weighs 6,800 or so, that leaves you 2,000 pounds for the camper, your gear, you, your passengers and the tongue weight of the boat. The one ton GVWR is 9,900, so that gives you an extra 1,000 pounds. The GVWR of the 1 ton dually is 11,200.
When I ordered my truck, I had a slide-in camper in mind. I initially ordered a 99 F-350 Single Rear Wheel. After I crunched the numbers, I changed my order to a dually and have had no regrets. I did get a large, deluxe, slide-in camper (It's 10'11"). The advertised dry weight of the camper is 2,900 pounds. The options added another 1,000, so the camper weighs 3,900. The truck weighs 7,100 pounds. Loaded for a trip, I tip the scales around 12,000 pounds including gear and passengers.
The truck handles the weight great, but I am still squatting a little in the back. I know that will have consequences in the long run for the suspension and brakes, as well as having an impact on the current handling. I plan to add air bags and/or adjustable shocks in the near future. Like I said, it handles good now. I've got over 22,000 miles on the truck with 8-10,000 of that with the camper on.
My only advice is to make sure to do the research and crunch the numbers if you're contemplating a slide-in truck camper. They're heavier than most people think. Pulling a trailer is a totally different ballgame. The convential tow rating is 10,000 pounds and the GCVR is 20,000 pounds. The GCVR and tow rating are irrelevant when it comes to slide-in campers. It's the GVWR that you need to be concerned with.
As for diesel vs gas, you could probably justify the break-even at the gas pump if you are putting 22,000 miles per year on the truck. Of course, the diesel engine weighs about 700 pounds more than the V-10, which further restricts the payload capacity before you hit the GVWR.
I have the 4.30 axle ratio with the V-10. It cost me a couple of mpg running empty compared to the V-10 with the 3.73. With the 4.30s, I get 10ish in a combo of city/hwy and 11.5-12 on the hwy. I get 8.5-9 with the camper on. I don't think the someone with a V-10 and 3.73s will do 2mpg better than me with a similar load. It's running empty where you really notice the difference. I had the opportunity to compare notes with someone who owns an almost identical truck and has the same camper as I have. The only difference is that he has the diesel. He averages 13.5 with the camper on, so he is doing about 4.5-5mpg better with the diesel carrying the same load. The diesel will do 5-7 mpg better than the V-10 running empty.