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Honda Accord Coupe

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http://www.carthrill.com/forums/showthread.php?s=a22716016e8d685d7e09a5982747dc3d&threadid=160
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Comments

  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    It looks nice, but distinctly reminds me of Mercedes...gotta be the tailights.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    Those taillamps are 100% SLK.
  • bunk1968bunk1968 Member Posts: 119
    I really thought it would look sportier? Maybe it is different in person? I think I may like the way the current ones look better.
  • bunk1968bunk1968 Member Posts: 119
    Everyone seems to be wrong. If you go to this site to look at the pics you will see in the far left corner the date was 6-15-02 and above the pic it says that official pics will come out in four days, today is the 20th.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Seen THAT shot (thanks all the same, though).

    What's the nose look like?

    Anyone?

    Anyone?

    Bueller?
  • bunk1968bunk1968 Member Posts: 119
    I have a shot of the front that usually accompanied the pic you said you have already seen here. I wish I could tell you the site I got it from, but it is this same car but the front end. It kind of looks like a Chrysler front end. I will send it to your email address if you want?
  • ssee28ssee28 Member Posts: 13
    I hope they are FAKE cause if they are i'm going to get the 2002 accord ex v6 2dr =)
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Pics of the 2003 Accord in the flesh are available at vtec.net.
  • ronsteveronsteve Member Posts: 1,195
    If the '03 Accord will have any kind of sequential-shift automatic available?? I'm considering the Passat vs the Accord coupe, and VW's Tiptronic is one of the Passat's biggest advantages.
    2015 Acura RDX AWD / 2021 VW TIguan SE 4Motion
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    I'd imagine it would, given how common such gadgets are becoming. (And especially considering how long Honda has had manumatics in their parts bin...
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Remember the first Preludes and that 1st/2nd shift thing? My gilrfriend back in my college days had one of those.

    Odd, but fun.

    I can't see being in that segment and not offering at LEAST a manumatic, but a sequential manual? That WOULD put them a bit ahead of the rest of the pack. Lack of a manual was a mistake in this gen, IMO...
  • bunk1968bunk1968 Member Posts: 119
    Can anyone tell me where I can see Pictures of the 03 coupe and not the same old spy picts that have been around a while now?? Thank you.
  • bunk1968bunk1968 Member Posts: 119
    I think I saw the same pict of the front end with a cloth or something bunched up on the hood. I want to know if there is any other new photo's of the Coupe 03??? So far I agree with you whotheman, the 02's look better.
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    Agreed. Shifting speed/delay is far more important in an automatic than being able to tab through the gears yourself. If it shifts quickly, that is all that matters. If it shifts slowly, then a manumatic will only exaggerate the frustration.
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    I hardly ever use the SS on the CL.
  • jrp6977jrp6977 Member Posts: 87
    I have seen the pics of the so-called '03 coupe before on the cover of Automotive News a few weeks back and have my doubts.(maybe just wishful thinking). But, the AN pics showed the front end which sports,(if you look very closely)a Chrysler emblem. Maybe (again, wishful thinking) its actually the next Sebring Coupe?
  • jsspearsjsspears Member Posts: 17
    So is the 2003 going to have a 3.2 liter 240 hp V6 or not? How about the 5 speed automatic from the Acura side? And when will these mechanical bits be available?
  • g_huskyg_husky Member Posts: 32
    Autoweek www.autoweek.com posted several new spy shots of coupe and sedan today. It appears to be very close to production form. I heard Honda make reference earlier that this was going to be far more aggressive style than they have done to Accord before. But it still looks typical Honda, rather bland and not that different from other cars currently out there.
  • whothemanwhotheman Member Posts: 169
    Except without the luxury stature, or anything nice. Correction, it has a 6-speed, unlike the Benz.
  • jdawnjdawn Member Posts: 1
    Now in the write-up, it says the V-6 is avail. in 5 spd. auto tran., then in the pics section, there is a V-6 6 spd man. tran.
    What gives. I know in the past Honda has limited the V-6 Accord to auto tran. only. Please tell me that this isn't the case with the new Accord.
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    The coupe will have a V6-6-speed manual combo. intro won't be until early 2003 though.
  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    i am a dealer, and thought it about time to cease speculation. the new accord will come in the same lx and ex trim levels. the 4-cyl. models will range from $21k-$24k, and v6 models from $23k-$26k. the 4-cyl. will be the same 2.4L vtec found in the 2002 crv. the v6 will be the same 3.0L increased 20% with honda's engine magic to 240 hp. the exv6 models will also offer a satellite-linked navigation system with the stereo and climate controls incorporated in the same screen, and voice activation for all its functions.

    NOW! everyone stop griping about bland styling because the same thing happens every time honda does something new...5 years from now when the 8th gen. accord comes out, you will all be saying the same things! lol. happy honda hunting!!!
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Impressive!

    Now, if only the power went to the correct wheels...

    [-P
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    I agree with bowke above - I wonder what people were saying back in 1998 when the 6th gen Accord first came out? Probably the same things we're hearing today, and the same things we'll hear 5 years from now when the 8th gen comes out!
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    'Course he's right, Mach!

    They always make a great Accord that sells. They've just never made one that I personally want to buy. Just like Buick, they seem to be doing rather well without my input or my money... ;-)
  • parker19parker19 Member Posts: 59
    the first month the new accords are out ... do you think dealers let them go for under sticker ... as a buyer, would anyone pay sticker
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    There is NO WAY I would pay sticker just to be 'first on the block' when you know darn well they will be discounted once the production pipeline is full.
  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    I work in probably the largest Honda dealer in the midwest, and I know that if you want an Accord in the first model year, you will pay at least MSRP. some dealers ask for more, some dont. Your best deal will come at the dealer who ONLY asks MSRP.
    The same thing happened in '98, the same thing happened in '93...etc...etc...
    the honda accord, as you all know (or you probably wouldnt be here..lol) is one of the most sought after cars in the world.

    maciavelli...i dont think your local dealer cares whether you pay his price or not...just like the Odyssey, Pilot, CR-V, and S2000...the next guy will.
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    hahahahaha hack hahahaha snort... cough cough wheeeeee thass funny.

    Waat? Riiiiiight.
  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    whats funny? make a point, buddy...i can call you any name in the book, but if i dont give a reason, then it invalidates it...

    so your last message is invalid, and will be ignored until you make a point. what is funny and why is it funny? is it funny to everyone? or just you?

    p.s. that cough is pretty nasty...is there a burning sensation that goes along with it? check into your local clinic...i dont want to catch anything....lol
  • bibbensbibbens Member Posts: 6
    in a lengthy post? You appear to have the same basic personality as all Honda salespersons I have dealt with. You didn't MAKE the car, son. You only SELL it.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    It's funny because anyone who pays MSRP for a new Accord is just plain silly! Yep, Maxamillion has said it, that person is SILLY! Why? Well, look at the competition out there. You have the new Camry, which is slightly larger than the Accord not quite as fast, but just as refined. Then you have the new Altima, which is just as fast, sportier, but not quite as refined. Lastly you have the new Mazda 6, which is only SLIGHTLY smaller than the new Accord, probably not as fast, but better looking. So you have many many choices now, unlike back in late 1997 when the 6th gen Accord debuted.

    As a matter of fact, back when the 6th gen. debuted, ONLY the V6 models went for MSRP, not the four cylinder models. Besides who in there right mind would pay MSRP for a new Accord LX with automatic tranny anyway. It's not like it's a Premium Sports sedan or something.

    Also, you mention how the Oddy, Pilot, CR-V and S2000 all go for MSRP. Well, around here, the CR-V is going for Invoice, NOT MSRP...so there goes one. The other vehicles, however are more of niche vehicles, IMO. The Pilot is a new SUV from Honda, it's in high demand and b/c of capacity constraints, Honda can't keep up with demand. (At the local dealer in my area, a Light Blue Pilot LX has been there since they debuted.) Go figure... The Oddy is the same way, but the Accord? It has been of capacity, so I just don't see the Accord going for MSRP, not now and not ever. I could see $1000 above invoice, but anything else is just not worth it.

    To add another point. Just look at the new Camry. Toyota is already offering financing deals on the Camry, and it's just a year old. After a full month of being on sale, one could get a new Camry for about invoice. Now the local dealer in my area is advertising all new Camrys for $20 below invoice. See what I mean?!?!?
    Dick Dyer in Columbia, SC was at one time offering Camry 4cylinders for $500 BELOW invoice.

    Too end this off.
    As much as I love Hondas, I would never pay MSRP for a new Accord LX or EX, I'd just go out and buy a new Camry LE or SEI4 add Pkg. 2 and enjoy the power driver's seat that is STILL unavailable for the Accord LX or EX. Why pay MSRP for an Accord, when you can get a roomier, just as refined, slightly slower (V6 forms) Camry for invoice. Again, it's funny because you'd never get me into your dealer because

    A) I'd EVEN take an Altima at invoice before I'd buy the Accord at MSRP

    B) NO Accord is worth MSRP, sorry...

    C) You can get a similarly equipped Camry for Invoice anyway so...which would I choose...hmmm...the Camry for Invoice?

    D) It's not like the new Accord is a Nissan 350Z, it's a plain jane family sedan
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I would not pay MSRP for any car. But if I liked Accord over its competition, I wouldn't mind paying more than the others either, but definitely not $29K that some Altima buyers have paid for the car.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Have you ever been in a Wal-Mart? "rolling back prices" my butt. It is a marketing scheme:

    They sell an item that is really only worth about $3, but they sell it for 5$, because the sign says it normally sells for $10.

    They prey on people like you who would "not pay MRSP for any car". How about analyzing the car first and deciding how much it is really worth to you?
  • jfigueroa1jfigueroa1 Member Posts: 209
    Well i do not really remenber when they came out
    but i bought my wife the LX 2WD on the month of march only paid $17,700. is that below your msrp at your dealer.
    Greetings from sunny Miami.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    IMO, no car is worth its MSRP. That is the maximum suggested price, not necessarily the optimum.

    And there is a reason why I prefer to buy certain things from Walmart, though. It has little to do with Mr. smiley, more with real life price comparison and variety.

    BTW, I paid $1600 under MSRP for my 98 Accord EX in Oct 97. Sometimes, I do agree however, that a car at MSRP may be better than another at its invoice. Still, I would make it a cent less. ;-)
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Not maximum suggested price. And of course, the dealer is free to ask more or less. Its all free market at work.

    One should go for the best deal they can, but to arbitrarily say that you won't pay MSRP for any car is a little stupid - if the car you want is a good value at MSRP and enough others agree with you, then that is no reason not to pay MSRP. I think some people view car buying as some game and they win if they get the dealer under MSRP the most. That's a stupid way to buy a car. I couldn't go out and get a big discount right now on a 350ZX, but the car is a great deal at MSRP. I certainly wouldn't want to go out and spend $20K more for a Boxster just because the Boxster had a $4K discount while the 350ZX sold for list.

    And I wonder how many of you who think cars like the 2003 Accord are going to be heavily discounted have actually bought Hondas lately. Honda sales are holding up nicely and many Hondas are continuing to command MSRP, including the new CR-V which someone said is selling at invoice. There will be a some deals, but the car will likely be popular and discounts are not likely to be large in the first year, especially for the specialty models like the EX V6 Coupe.

    Again, go for the best price you can on the car you like best - whether that ends up a big or small discount from MSRP is irrelevent.

    - Mark
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    I didn't say that the 2003 Accord was or was not worth MSRP. What I said was that to pay more than sticker is ridiculous on a volume midsize model. If you pay MSRP+ for any Civic or Accord, you have enough money to contribute to Vero's "Shakedown to a new NSX fund." So hand over all that excess money... a fool and his money are soon parted, and if it parts to contribute to my NSX fund, then more power to me.

    If Honda dealers can ask for MSRP+ and people are willing to pay, I'll bet you they could stock Honda lawn equipment too and charge MSRP+ for lawnmowers. And then, if that works, they could sell "near-luxury lawnmowers" at Acura dealerships for MSRP++!

    2003 Accord coupe? 2002 Accord coupe is worth MSRP compared to the new model... comparing just rear styling, even.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    bowke, WHo in the world would pay over MSRP for a Accord??? I have never heard of that. Maybe in the midwest because each Honda dealer is like a hundred miles from the next. Out here in the Northeast, nobody would pay over MSRP for a Accord, of all things! I haven't heard of people paying over MSRP for the most sought after cars like S2000s, & Porsche's. And you're telling me some dealers will charge over MSRP for a Accord??? Gimme a break. As I said maybe it happens in the midwest, and people are stupid enough to pay over MSRP, but that is hardly the norm.

    And in this economy, I doubt the Accord sticks at MSRP for long. 2002 is not 98 or 93. Both of those years the economy was booming and there was less competition. In 2002, you have competition from many more places, like The Passat, upcoming Mazda 6, as well as from Honda's own Pilot and other cross-over SUVs.
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    First of all, cut bowke some slack. Don't kill the messenger. He's only reporting the news. He's not saying it SHOULD go for MSRP or higher. And I think he's been helpful here.

    bibbens, no offence, but you haven't met the guy, so I don't think it was fair for you to make that comment about his personality.

    And I agree with wishnhigh1 that we can't get hung up over the MSRP. Ultimately, the car's merits compared to the competition, and supply and demand, will dictate what the final selling price is. That's why the Odyssey is still selling at MSRP. If Honda has priced it aggressively compared to the competition, maybe it will sell at MSRP forever. Let's say, hypothetically, Honda priced it a bit LOWER than the '02, would people still scream that there is no way they would buy at MSRP?
  • silverk21silverk21 Member Posts: 65
    The reality is that the market demand (and negotiation skills of the buyer) will dictate the price, whether it is MSRP+ or -. In all reality, I think it will be hard to find a new coupe below MSRP, at least for the first few months. It all depends upon demand vs. the supply for that area. Like most of you, I hope to be able to get one below MSRP, but somehow I think its going to take awhile.


    BTW, Honda expects the price of the '03 Accord to increase about 2% from the previous year. See http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=30718 for article.

  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    IM IMPRESSED AT HOW MUCH DIALOGUE MY COMMENTS BROUGHT FORTH! LOL. ANYWAY, HERE IN LITTLE OLD LOUISVILLE, KY WE HAVE THE LARGEST HONDA DEALERSHIP IN THE 7-STATE ZONE...BIGGER THAN CHICAGO, DETROIT, CLEVELAND, NASHVILLE, ETC...

    THE ACCORD WILL SELL HERE FOR MSRP..WITH THE MAXIMUM ALLOCATION AVAILABLE TO ANY DEALER. 4-CYL. AUTOMATICS AS WELL...SOME MODELS MAY BE QUICKER IN DISCOUNTING THAN OTHERS...FINE...SOME MODELS MAY BE IN SHORT SUPPLY....FINE...BUT MARKET CONDITIONS (EVEN WITH THE "BAD" ECONOMY) DICTATE THAT THE HONDA ACCORD BE SOLD FOR MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE (MSRP FOR THOSE THAT MISTYPED ABOVE)

    I THINK IT FUNNY THAT I, AS A DEALER, HAVE HAD PERSONAL RECORDS SET FOR VOLUME IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS, WHEN THE @%#$%# MEDIA HAS BEEN REPORTING A RECESSION. THE ECONOMY IS FINE...AND HONDA HAS NEVER TAKEN THE LOW ROAD TO A DEAL IE: 0% OR THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN REBATES. AND YET...ITS 3 YEARS RUNNING THAT THE ACCORD IS THE BEST SELLING CAR IN THE WORLD.

    ...THANKS TO THOSE THAT UNDERSTAND THE RETAIL MARKET, AND SHAME TO THOSE WHO DONT LISTEN...'NUFF SAID I THINK.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    Honda dealerships in Detroit are offloading their '02 Accord models at invoice, and according to the saleswoman who sold me my S2k (we talk regularly) they expect to hold the same margins on the '03 Accords as they did on '02 Accords, namely, a few hundred to a thousand bucks over invoice. I'm sure bowke's dealership is pretty big, but it's still a tiny dot next to the combined dozen or so Honda dealerships alone that are within 45 miles of where I live.

    Anyone interested in a Honda Accord should avoid Bowke and consult Troy Honda in Troy, MI, which will sell you an Accord for far less than Bowke. Buy a one-way ticket to the city, spend an evening at the beach up in Port Huron, then drive back to KY in your new '03 Accord that cost $3000 less than it would have if you'd bought it at Bowke Honda.
  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    you know, thats pretty funny...im originally from lake orion. im usually up there about a weekend every 2 months, so i think i will check it out...maybe some secret shopping...lol. what is your salesperson's name? email it if you dont want to post it ok?

    part of the thing in the detroit area is the fact that the "import" doesnt have quite the meaning that it does in other parts of the country...big 3 and all...
    there are probably about as many honda buyers here in an area of 600k people as there are in the detroit area with 4 mil. different culture, different attitudes. they may have to give a honda away to compete with the big 3 up there...so be it...but dont venture past the yellow areas on your map, or you might just run into someone like me...lol.
    the whole point is market conditions, bob. as long as there are people willing to pay all the money, we will ask for it. noone will pay all the money for a cavalier or a taurus or a caravan. they will pay all the money on the accord for a period of time. how long? your guess is as good as mine.

    btw...there is not $3000 of markup in an accord...go to your research sites and do the math...$2445 markup on an exv6. less your few hundred over invoice and i come up with around $2000 less. maybe after the 1st of the year...we'll see...i'll be around, so ill let you all know when i sell my 1st invoice accord. see ya later.
  • cokane5227cokane5227 Member Posts: 117
    but i went car shopping for my friend about a month ago, and i got him an 02 SE sedan for $1200 UNDER invoice, 1hr relaxing negotiation, VERY VERY easy.
    Oakland Honda in CA, TAHT'S RIGHT! $1200 under invoice in THE BAY AREA.
    i dunno about 03 when they come out though, but this was my experience with an 02, easy as breathing. anywayz, MSRP will never work for me, no matter where.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    I encourage all potential Bowke customers to visit a dealership in the Detroit area for a much better deal on a 2003 Accord Coupe, when they become available. Why pay retail or more at Bowke Honda when you can be driving home in a brand new 2002 Honda Accord at an affordable price? Remember, at Bowke Honda, The Customer's Wallet Comes First (tm).

    The '03 Accord should sell for the 2% markup over the '02 Accord and not appreciably more, since presently Accord sales are slumping. The sedan has been soundly surpassed by the redesigned Camry this year and is in danger of being surpassed by the Taurus/Sable before the end of the year, knocking Accord from #1 to #3 in just twelve months. American Honda, you can bet, is well aware of this. And given how undersized the new Accord is, I think it's going to have a difficult time moving upmarket in price while maintaining a sales presence. The only way Honda will sell Accords at MSRP is by cutting production in half. By all accounts, the new Accord continues to be smaller than the Taurus, Camry and now Altima as well, in terms of front room, rear room AND trunk cargo space. With the emergence of large sedans and crossover vehicles it appears that the big three were on the ball - the American public wants larger sedans and coupes with deeper seats, large trunks and rear headroom, and the Accord has survived by making up for its deficiencies in these areas by featuring superior build quality and value. However, I think people would be hard-pressed to say that modern Accord quality and value are appreciably better than Altima's or Camry's. I suspect the Bowkes of the nation are going to be shellshocked when they find people moving up to bigger, better built, more luxurious Camry sedans for $1000 less than the MSRP Bowke is going to ask for an Accord.

    "the whole point is market conditions, bob. as long as there are people willing to pay all the money, we will ask for it. noone will pay all the money for a cavalier or a taurus or a caravan. they will pay all the money on the accord for a period of time. how long? your guess is as good as mine."

    My guess is the first three buyers. And those people will never buy a Honda again after realizing what a dumb thing they let you get away with.

    Anybody got the name of the largest dealership in KY? I'd like to send Bowke's posts to the manager and ask him what he thinks about his dealers bragging about their high prices on the internet...
  • bowkebowke Member Posts: 169
    THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRAGGING ABOUT HIGH PRICES, BOB. THIS HAS TO DO WITH RETAIL MERCHANDISE SELLING AT FAIR MARKET PRICES. THE CAMRY IS A WELL-BUILT, WELL-ENGINEERED CAR THAT IS A VERY GOOD BUY FOR THE RIGHT PERSON. HAVING SAID THAT, IT ALSO DOESNT COME CLOSE TO THE UPDATED ACCORD IN HANDLING AND PERFORMANCE. PEOPLE WILL DRIVE BOTH, AND SEE THE DIFFERENCE. SOME WILL BUY THE CAMRY FOR PRICE DIFFERENCE, AND SOME WILL BUY THE ACCORD FOR A LITTLE MORE FOR GETTING MORE...THATS THE WAY CAPITALISM WORKS, BOB. YOU PAY MORE, YOU GET MORE. IF THIS OFFENDS YOUR SENSIBILITIES, THEN MOVE TO CHINA. IM SURE YOULL LIKE IT THERE.
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    I wonder if they (the Chinese) would take bowke for invoice. Ship 'em out tomorrow. Would he qualify as a "weapon of mass destruction"? If so, you might want to clear it through the Defense dept. I'd be willing to part with bowke for cost.

    Anderson Honda is now "Honda of Bloomfield" ... did you hear why, sphinx? Perhaps Toyota of Bloomfield bought them out? Heading Uptown? Or just looking for a 'new image'?

    I wouldn't really want to shop at Suburban Honda or Anderson/Bloomfield Honda or Troy Honda. Jeffrey is a good dealer, and Tamaroff would make sense. Howard Cooper in Ann Arbor has high ratings.

    Port Huron? Nope, buy a Honda in the Detroit area (or maybe up in Grand Blanc) and head up to northern Michigan. It's far away from obnoxious Honda salestypes.

    As for the 2003 coupe: Edmunds has photos now. Very nice, not worth "more than MSRP" even though it is the definitive personal midsize coupe... but so was the 2002 model.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    "Anderson Honda is now "Honda of Bloomfield" ... did you hear why, sphinx? Perhaps Toyota of Bloomfield bought them out? Heading Uptown? Or just looking for a 'new image'?"

    I don't know what the story is, although I did get some invitation to some "event" there that I just now realized was last Monday. Too bad, anyone who attended was supposed to get a free camping tent or something, and I was just thinking I could really use something like that next weekend. Oh well.

    I do not like Tamaroff one bit. I don't know, the manager dude has this menacing stare. My sister called him "sketchy" and my fiance called him "skanky" - you be the judge. I am a big fan of Troy Honda. I can recommend Marina there in sales. Can't speak for Suburban Honda although I don't think I'll ever, ever buy anything at Suburban Acura after that sales dude pulled the "Yeah Prelude is an ok car but it's no Acura" line on me, then proceeded to call the S2000 "a car that doesn't really make sense" then smiled at me as though he expected me to smile back. Almost as smarmy as that Mercedes guy who said the S2000 was a nice car but "it's no SLK230." To his credit, he's right, and thank goodness!

    "Port Huron? Nope, buy a Honda in the Detroit area (or maybe up in Grand Blanc) and head up to northern Michigan. It's far away from obnoxious Honda salestypes."

    Oh, Port Huron is just for that nice beach and the gusty winds.
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