Isn't this forum reserved for "classic" cars? If so, pretty much everything FoMoCo. produced past 1973 hardly qualifies.
I can only assume the Ford &/or Mercury dealers are "building up" the value of your Marquis so they can sell you a new model. On paper it looks like they're giving you a huge trade-in allowance for your car, but in reality they may be charging you ABOVE the sticker price.
When I see an '83 or an '85 Marquis roll across the auction block at Barrett-Jackson or displayed in the Nethercutt Collection & Museum, then I'll know it's attained collector car status. Until then, ask your Ford salesman to provide some warm milk and cookies the next time he offers you another bed time story like this.
Seriously, these dealers are just pulling your chain. If they really think your car is that valuable, politely ask them to write you a check on the spot for their reported price. However, be careful not to get caught up in the vacuum they'll create as they back away at warp speed.
I'll only say that just because someone calls their car a classic doesn't make it so. Classic status is determined by the market. Not a handful of dealers and certainly not the manufacturer - who'd like to think every car that rolls of their assembly line is destined for immortality.
By the way, I like Fords. Especially early to mid 60's Galaxy XL 500 convertibles, 1964-68 Mustangs and 1964 Thunderbirds. You'll get no GM bias from me. And, speaking for the rest of the group, I don't think anybody here has an axe to grind with Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. In fact, I've had some of these cars in my own garage.
Let me just say that if you can find someone willing to pay $5,000 for that car, grab them by the lapels and force them to fork it over. Perhaps there's something magical about a Marquis of this era that the rest of us are missing.
I think you'll find the regulars in the Edmunds classic car discussion group to be a pretty knowledgeable group of folks. As an example, check out the resume of our host (Mr. Shiftright).
Not my line, but I'll use it. If Franklin can have a mint, then I freely admit there may be a group of Marquis fanatics out there willing to pay big bucks for your car. Best of luck to all.
Here's what I understand. Someone in your BMV department is saying you have to wait a few years before a car qualifies to wear classic car plates. So, by that definition ANY 25 year old "limited edition" (wink, wink) car qualifies as being a classic. How many cars constitutes a limited edition? 5, 50, 500, 5,000?
In the 1970's and early 1980's, Lincoln made a Bill Blass limited edition for their Mark series. But, I seriously doubt there's a line forming out the door to buy them today.
Are you telling me that this $5,000 offer you supposedly received was in October 2000? In other words, someone made you an offer over 2 years ago and that's supposed to relevant today?
Like I said, when a mid-1980's Marquis shows up at the Barrett-Jackson or Collectible Automobile magazine does a full page spread on one of these, I'll believe it's a classic. Until then, it's all balloon juice.
"I only go by what dealers and a manufacturer tells me."
Maybe thats not such a good idea. I guarantee that If I were scrounging the planet for info concerning my 71 firebird, the dealer would know squat, the manufacturer would likely know squat. Fortunately us Pontiakers have Pontiac Historical Services, which is independent from the manufacturer. Heck, I've been trying for five years to find out how many 71 Firebird Esprits were equipped with a 400. Nobody seems to know.
How many of these Marquis Broughams were built? Is it a classic because of the way it's optioned? Sorry, but there's more to it as to what defines a car as a classic.
My bird is one of 3000 cars with tilt wheel. Total Pontiac F body production was in excess of 50,000 cars. It also has the am/fm stereo w/ 8 track. Rarity does not directly equate with a classic.
"If it is a GM product or an import, even less than 25 years, if someone says it is a classic, it is not questioned."
I'd like to think my firebird is a classic, for registration and insurance purposes it qualifies. but in the marketplace I really don't know. All I know It's worth what someone is willing to pay me for it, and right now 70-72 base model/ Esprit model firebird are not commanding strong money vs a Formula and especially a Trans Am. I dont have concrete proof but from what I have seen on the net and other classifieds it may be possible that there may be near as many of my model bird left on the road as the Formulas and T/A's(early 70')s, even though the production of the of the base/Esprit models were significantly higher.
Granted YMMV and my vehicle is one case. I know 70-73 pontiac f-bodies like the back of my hand, and at the same time have a realistic grasp on my vehicle's worth. I just wanted to point out how your logic of your 85 Merc may not seperate it from all the others.
No, I didnt. First you said 2 dealers told you it was a classic and collector car and then it was confirmed by Ford. So far that says nothing.
"The reason is, none of the publishers has checked with them before pricing it way less than what it is actually worth. " Checked with them? Your convinced that Ford is dictating the value of the car. Sorry, but the market demand will dictate that.
"Seeing how many of the same features it was equipped with as the 1985 Lincoln Continental, I drove it to 2 new car lots just to compare new cars' features my Marquis'. Each dealership offered me $5,000.00 for it. I told each I just got it. And it was not for sale. But I was curious why they offered me that much for it. Each told me it is a classic and collector's item. "
You mention how its equipped. See my previous post.
"So, each strongly encouraged me to check with the Ford Motor Company. I did and found out both dealerships were right." I was told its retail value would only continue to appreciate under certain circumstances. One is to leave it original. The other was to keep the miles on it low. I have done both."
That can be applied to many vehicles new, old, and collector. You further elaborate on fuel injection, limited edition, fewer made in US vs Canada. NOT factors you can put your full faith in when determining a classic.
Then in your next post you mention options such as the stereo, rear defogger, trunk release and the steel bumper and frame. See my previous post.
"Like parm, I see you being swayed by the majority"
I have not been swayed by anyone. Especailly when I just gave a VERY real world example of why my car is not worth big bucks while at the same time shares many things in common with your Merc like options, engine type, number built, etc.
Again, should you respond, just how many of these cars were built?
"it is twisting around some and ignoring others."
Sorry you see it that way. Sounds like you got a reality check and flat out dont like what you heard.
"So, I will not waste my time responding to you. It's not worth it."
Your right, its not since you have yet to indicate anything that suggests that your car is a classic, other than " 2 dealers and Ford say so" Again, a harsh reality check.
"You want to act like you know more than we do."
Whos acting? Who's we?
Go list it(with a very high reserve)on that auction page that starts with an E. That would be a good place to start determining a value fo that car.
You should have taken the 5000 that was offered. Thats strong money for that car. Why? You said it yourself- "It is why none knows it is a classic and collector's item, as well as a limited edition."
No one KNOWS because there is WEAK or NO DEMAND for that car.
Well, what can I say? I think that whoever mislead you about these cars being "classics" was seriously mistaken, or confused, or at best is just being mischievous.
A 1966 Chevrolet Caprice isn't a classic either, by the way, nor is a 1956 Chevrolet. Nor is a 1928 Model A Ford.
True Classics are 1948 cars and older, and only CERTAIN pre 1948 cars qualify. There is a published list of these cars, and the list has been rather laboriously worked over by well-informed historians, in an effort to make the word "classic" make sense.
True classics MUST exhibit exceptional styling, engineering and performance. A 1980s Mercury does not appear to meet any of these particular criteria, nice ride though it might be. It's just an everyday sedan built for family duty.
"Collectible" cars are a much more vague terminology, but usually refer to older cars that are collected and restored by a definable group of enthusiasts. If there is a Mercury Marquis Brougham owner's club, I'm not aware of it, or of a magazine devoted to the marque,or a national meet somewhere. But Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, MGs, old VW bugs, these are all legitimately collectible and serviced by all kinds of clubs, groups, magazines, parts outlets and restorers.
So "classic" is definitely out, and "collectible" status for an '80s Merc sedan is highly doubtful.
This leaves "Special Interest" cars, which is a catch-all phrase that pretty much includes everything. The term Special Interest sort of implies some "market action". A good example would be the 94-96 Impala SS models, which are too new to be classics or collectibles, but which are pretty hot in the used car market. There is obviously a demand for them, because the price is way higher than a 94-96 Ford or Lincoln or Buick. SOMETHING is going on.
So anyway, while I am genuinely happy that you like your car so much, I think the price guides are pretty accurate--$1,500 to $3,500 all day long for the best ones in the world. And I don't anticipate the price going up very much as time goes on. In fact, I doubt many of these cars will survive, because it won't be worth restoring them as they age or have accidents, etc.
This is why I suggest you just drive it and enjoy it and use it up. There is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, just enjoyment in the Here and Now IMO.
There's not a price guide on the market that supports this dealer's "theory" on Mercury Marquis collectibility. Many do not even list the car.
So either 8 or 10 respected publications are crazy, as well as me, or he is.
I can hardly believe what I've read here about the guy with his Mercurys. I think it must be a joke, like an old episode of "Twilight Zone" where the guy jumps off a commuter train in his sleep, thinking he's escaping to a happy little town in the 1890s called "Willoughby." This is one way to "revitalize" the message board here. I admit the postings have been scarce the last few days. I just can't believe what I've just read was serious. Pardon me while I take my Citroen 2CV to the dragstrip, where I expect it to run with slammed Hondas and Acuras. I'll stop and get some aviation fuel on the way there. Oh yes-I have a Mercury story too. In highschool there was this guy who had a 56 Mercury Monterey 4door. He said it had an "Olds 404" with a 5.12 rearend. Looking at the original Mercury 312 that was under the hood, he still insisted it was an Olds. I don't know. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Talk about evading. If you should be so bold, how many of these cars were made. also, where's the demand for your car? You either can't or won't answer.
"I know the truth and the facts. I did my research." Your way of saying "Im right and you're wrong" is more like it.
What truth? Ford says this and therefore it must be so. Your research tells nothing.
The only truth is listing it and seeing what the market will bear.
"Actually, it is like the Ford Motor Company said. Very few have that information. The reason is, they did not check with them. And most I have checked are biased. It is toward GM products. The Ford Motor Company knows this, too. It is why we do not go by them."
Why would a representative of Ford Motor Company say flat out "Well our products are just not as popular as GM and consequently the demand is not as high, therefore the value(s) has been dictated as such."
" I will not mention the sources." Of course not. After all, why would you want to substantiate your claim with any credible sources.
Lets say 2 dealers and GM say my car is a classic and its value is going to increase by XX dollars because "its hard to find has rare and desirable options, chrome bumpers and steel frame". I have been told/subsequently offered $9000 for my car. Unlike you, I would have been all over that as that would be strong money for my car. Having tested the market recently I know what the market will currently bear for my car. So dont fool yourself, the facts are NOT all there.
...but an '85 Marquis with a 3.8 V-6 ain't it. The one to have, if you want one of these cars, is the Ford LTD LX, which was available for 2 years, 1984-85. It had a 165 hp 302 V-8, and would move the car from 0-60 in about 9 seconds. I forget how many they made, but it wasn't a whole lot. Most of these cars just came with a 4-cyl (gas or propane) or the 3.8 V-6 that's infamous for head gasket failure. The Crown Vic/T-bird 302 back then put out 140 hp, while in the Mustang and Mark VII is was around 200, so the LTD LX was somewhere in between.
For the most part though, these cars really don't have a whole lot going for them. They're a product of the '80's, they made a ton of them, and for the most part they were just mainstream family cars...4-doors and not a lot of performance.
If I had one and someone offered me $5000 for it, I'd take it in a heartbeat! My grandparents had a really nice '85 LTD that they traded for a brand-new '89 Taurus, and they only got about $6800 for it back then! I think it was around $12000 new.
...that I really love (in an automotive sense) and want to hold onto forever. It's my '79 Chrysler New Yorker 5th Ave. Still, I think if someone offered me $5000 for it, I'd take it! At the worst, I could just go buy another one and then bank the difference!
The only classic my family has ever owned was an '82 Malibu Classic Estate wagon. Well, we did have a collector's edition though, grandma's '85 LeSabre Limited Collector's Edition. Oh, it was limited all right. Of the roughly 150,000 or so LeSabres sold that year, the majority were "Limiteds". Even better, every Limited was also a Collector's Edition! FWIW, they had a bunch of leftover hood ornaments from the '85 LeSabre, so they used up their inventory on the '96 Roadmaster Collector's Edition!
I have checked up on not only the 1996 Roadmasters. But I have also checked up on the 1994-1996 Chevrolet Impala SS, the 1996 Caprices, the 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams and the 1996 Oldsmobile 98's. In time, they will be recognized as collectibles. It is as well as the Impala SS's being already listed as a limited edition. Very few were made. So, just hang in there!
"It appears you think you know more than the Ford Motor Company, dealers or those into collectible cars(ha! ha!). I do not know what sources you are referring to. But it obviously is not the Ford Motor Company."
That was a quote from you to Mr. Shiftright.
Sorry...can't type anymore, I'm laughing too hard!
...cars like the Roadmaster becoming minor collectibles, but they're never going to become high-demand cars like, say, a '57 Chevy. If anything else, the cabbies and wanna-be gangsta-thugs are going to run most of them into the ground.
In the past, usually the high-dollar, in demand cars tended to be 2-door hardtops and convertibles, and the bigger the engine and higher the trim level, the better. Nobody got excited about 4-doors, although 2-door post sedans were popular for hot-rodding and racing, since they were the lightest and sturdiest body style. Nobody got excited about 6-cyl or base V-8 engines, either.
Unfortunately, most of the things that separated the desireable models from the undesireables back then no longer exist. The hardtop and convertible are all but extinct, heck, a 2-door ANYTHING is pretty rare nowadays, unless you want it as a hatchback. They might have a base engine and an upgrade, but nothing on the scale and variety of the good old days.
I'm just pondering that the Roadmaster might have some collectibility because of it's "last of the B=behemoth RWD wagons" status. That and the fact that in wagon form it's not nearly as hideous as the sedans, IMO, perhaps even beautiful in an odd Imp SS kind of way.
I should know better than to try to match wits with an expert...
sorry...won't happen again.
Oh..since you like to believe what you hear and read...Just for laughs, I brought up a 1985 Mercury Marquis on Kelly Blue book.
You can do the same thing.
I put in my zip code (now they may be worth a LOT more in yours). I tried to list all of the "rare" options that yours has. It defaulted to 96,000 miles.
Came up with a RETAIL figure of 1580.00.
Imagine that!
And I think we all know Kelly numbers are usually higher than reality.
I went back to check, but I can't find it: what is the name of this invaluable book. I should like to peruse the Walden site or Amazon (if it's not a Walden exclusive).
When I'm not chuckling irrepressibly, I'm really quite curious...
...I went to the NADA website and plugged in info for my '79 New Yorker. It came back with a high retail of $4975, but then said "add 15%" for a/c, so that brings it up to $5721.
I'm actually a bit surprised that a/c is listed as an option. The base price on this car was $10,026 way back then. Now I know a lot of stuff was optional back then, but please, PLEASE somebody tell me that when you paid $10K+ for a car back then, it at least had air conditioning standard!
I don't have a lot of faith in this online guide though, because it also lets you check off "6-cyl engine", which gives you a 10% deduction. The '79 New Yorker had a 360-2bbl standard, although a 318-4bbl was a credit option, I believe. The Slant Six was NEVER available in an R-body New Yorker.
Also, for $5721, I'd expect it to be the nicest 1979 New Yorker left in existence! Just for reference, at the all-Mopar Nationals at Carlisle last year, there were two other R-body NYers, both for sale. I had mine up there, but it was just on the fun field so my club could use it in their car count (plus it gets you better parking!) Anyway, one of 'em DID look like it just rolled off the showroom floor. I think it only had about 39K miles on it, and the only flaw I could find was that the headliner was just starting to let go. They wanted $5500 for it. The other was an '81 that had about 200,000 miles on it, but had some major work put into it. It had a copcar 360 that had been rebuilt and dynoed at 213 hp at the wheels (they were only good for around 185-195 net, so I'd imagine it was pretty powerful). Also had a 9.25 rear with 3.23 gears, and a dual exhaust, and alloy wheels that I think came off of a Mirada/Cordoba. It had a lot of work put into it, so it looked good in spite of the mileage. That guy wanted $7800 for his. It also had a power sunroof. I have no idea how much these cars would really be worth, but I'm sure that their owners either came down in price big-time, or they still have the cars in their possession.
Speaking of which, Carlisle is another excellent place to find inflated prices in general. I think some people take what the car is actually worth and then multiply it by about 2 or 3 times!
4-door sedan, with 77,000 miles: Low retail $971, average retail: $1696, high retail: $2171. This includes $46 for a low-mileage adjustment. The only variable was for mileage though, so evidently engines (I think the Brougham had the 232 V-6 standard though) and options (a/c probably standard on the Brougham as well) don't affect the price much.
Now here's something interesting, though...NADA's used car guides only go back to 1984. For 1983 and earlier, they use what they call a "classic car consumer price". Maybe this is part of where the misnomer for "classic" comes from?
Anyway, I checked an '83 Marquis Brougham sedan, and it came back with the following: Low retail: $1725, average retail: $3200, and high retail: $4625. For some reason though, they tell you to deduct 10% for the 6-cyl engine! In the classic car guide, it also doesn't ask for mileage, and there are no options to check off other than the aforementioned 6-cyl.
Now there is no way in hell an '83 Marquis is going to command almost twice as much as an '85!
I think I'm going to email NADA and ask 'em when I can expect my check for $5721 for my NYer!
andre - I consider the NADA retail prices to be what a dealer should put on the car as an "asking" price. This is what they paint on the window so the salesman can allow you to "steal" it for several thousand less than the asking. They are always way too high to represent the real market.
Hey, now you're speaking my language! If you've not done so, you might check out the 1960's Oldsmobile thread I started. It focuses on a '65 Olds 98 convertible I was drooling over at the time.
Ease up some, eh? Some of the people you're talking with have 10+ years in the auto business, and one of them has a national reputation. These guys arte not all random internet posters. You've talked to Ford and the dealers (who have every reason to pump the value of the car) and read a book. You're waaaaay out classed here.
I suggest you read and ask questions, and open your mind to learning something.
We all have our opinions. Just because it's in print doesn't make it gospel.
That Mercury in MY opinion is a very lackluster car that wasn't popular when new and has little value now. It is NOT a 5000.00 car by ANY stretch of the imagination.
I've spent over 30 years pretty much involved in the old car hobby. I have attended countless auctions and car shows. I don't claim to be an expert but I do know what is desirable and what is not.
If you happen to like the car, that's all that is important.
...possibly know the retail value of a particular used car, by the VIN? Does Ford know what kind of condition it's in? How it's been maintained? What kind of repair work that's been done on it? What needs to be fixed? Hell, Ford doesn't know the retail value of it's NEW cars, let alone its old ones! That's why Ford (along with GM, Chrysler, and others) have to issue hefty incentives to get people to buy them!
Now if you send your VIN to Ford, maybe they can tell you the MSRP of that car when it was brand-new, but there's no way they could possibly know what it's worth now. I'm sure they wouldn't care, either. That car was originally designed by a bunch of people who defected and went to Chrysler, and most of them are probably dead or drawing big pension checks by now! Besides, Ford doesn't sell cars. Dealerships sell cars. Ford tried to sell cars, through factory-direct dealerships, and IIRC they failed miserably!
...but here's some info they have about the Ford LTD in their 1985 new-car guide.
In 1985, the base powerplant in the base sedan and brougham sedan was a 2.3 4-cyl engine mated to a 3-speed automatic. Wagons had a 3.8 (232) V-6 mated to a 3-speed automatic. The LX had a 5.0 (302) V-8 with a 4-bbl carb, mated to a 4-speed AOD. It also had a quicker 3.27:1 rear end, whereas the 3.8 only had a 2.73:1.
The 4-speed automatic was an LX-only feature, not available on the base or brougham. Likewise, a 4-cyl turbo was not available, and neither was a 5-speed. They WERE available on the Thunderbird (didn't the Mustang also have a 2.3 Turbo?) Since they're all on the same Fox chassis, they're probably all listed together in the same manual.
However, they were not all available on the LTD in 1985. At least not according to Consumer Guide. Also, the only 5.0 ever offered in the Fox-based LTD was the '84-85 LX's 165 hp 4-bbl unit. For 1986, as production was phased out in favor of the Taurus, only the 3.8 V-6 was available.
Now maybe Consumer Guide is wrong...who knows? For one thing, they're only going to cover U.S. market vehicles, so maybe a few aberrations were spawned for Canadian or Mexican markets?
However, going to the EPA website, http://www.fueleconomy.org/ also shows that, for 1985, the only engine choices were a 2.3 4-cyl/3-speed auto (in two different states of tune for 49 states/California), a 3.8/3-speed auto (again in 2 different states of tune), and the H.O. 5.0/4-speed auto. No other choices. Of course, that website could be wrong too. After all, it's only the government!
Well, what can I say? If you choose not to look at the overwhelming published evidence that speaks against a 1985 Mercury sedan ever being collectible, then there's really no way to convince you that you were mislead by someone. The price guides, auction results and historians are quite clear on this subject. Take your pick---CPI, Kelley Blue Book, Gold Book, N.A.D.A., Old Car Price Guide, Kruse Auctions, Barrett Jackson, Ehli Auctions---none of them value the car at $5,000 or report a sale at that price that I can see.
Given this, it is hard for me to understand your position here, but I'll try to listen.
No harm done I guess, except I hope you don't count on this car being worth much in the future, as you will be disappointed, and please don't invest lots of money or energy into it expecting a payback of some sort.
I would like to know the name and phone number of the person you talked to at "Ford Motor Company" that told you what this car was worth. As Andre said, as far as I know, Ford is not in the business of placing market values on used cars. Nor are they in the business of classifying cars as "collectible" or "classic". I'm trying to figure out who you talked to, what they told you and, finally, how you might have misinterpretted it.
A friend of mine attended the Barrett-Jackson auction last week. For those who don't know, they only accept first class cars. My friend told me they rejected 700 cars that were below their standards.
Anyone think they would have accepted an '85 Mercury?
Even Mitch Silver wouldn't want to run one through!
Oh, I bet Mitch would take it as an early # for bargain hunters. I snagged my pristine 1980 Mercedes for chump change at one of those auctions...it was early and everyone was sleeping.
I'm not sure where you are getting confused. You keep talking about MSRP. There is no MSRP for used vehicles. Manufacturers do not have MSRP for anything but new vehicles. Furthermore, even for new vehicles, MSRP has nothing to do with market values. The market value for some cars is well below MSRP for others, it is well above. Do you know what the "S" in MSRP stands for? Please tell us who you talked to at Ford and GM who is giving you this information.
that Ford wasn't telling you the MSRP of the car when it was new? They are the most reliable source for that information, true. Car manufacturers don't set prices on used cars. The MSRP relates only to cars sold as new.
If Ford quoted you an MSRP, (which I doubt, BTW) it would be only the price it was offered for as a new car, back in 1983.
Comments
I can only assume the Ford &/or Mercury dealers are "building up" the value of your Marquis so they can sell you a new model. On paper it looks like they're giving you a huge trade-in allowance for your car, but in reality they may be charging you ABOVE the sticker price.
When I see an '83 or an '85 Marquis roll across the auction block at Barrett-Jackson or displayed in the Nethercutt Collection & Museum, then I'll know it's attained collector car status. Until then, ask your Ford salesman to provide some warm milk and cookies the next time he offers you another bed time story like this.
Seriously, these dealers are just pulling your chain. If they really think your car is that valuable, politely ask them to write you a check on the spot for their reported price. However, be careful not to get caught up in the vacuum they'll create as they back away at warp speed.
Still, if a mid-eighties Mercury lights your fire, great!
I do have to ask though...if someone handed you 5000.00 in green cash, you really wouldn't sell?
By the way, I like Fords. Especially early to mid 60's Galaxy XL 500 convertibles, 1964-68 Mustangs and 1964 Thunderbirds. You'll get no GM bias from me. And, speaking for the rest of the group, I don't think anybody here has an axe to grind with Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. In fact, I've had some of these cars in my own garage.
Let me just say that if you can find someone willing to pay $5,000 for that car, grab them by the lapels and force them to fork it over. Perhaps there's something magical about a Marquis of this era that the rest of us are missing.
I think you'll find the regulars in the Edmunds classic car discussion group to be a pretty knowledgeable group of folks. As an example, check out the resume of our host (Mr. Shiftright).
Not my line, but I'll use it. If Franklin can have a mint, then I freely admit there may be a group of Marquis fanatics out there willing to pay big bucks for your car. Best of luck to all.
In the 1970's and early 1980's, Lincoln made a Bill Blass limited edition for their Mark series. But, I seriously doubt there's a line forming out the door to buy them today.
Are you telling me that this $5,000 offer you supposedly received was in October 2000? In other words, someone made you an offer over 2 years ago and that's supposed to relevant today?
Like I said, when a mid-1980's Marquis shows up at the Barrett-Jackson or Collectible Automobile magazine does a full page spread on one of these, I'll believe it's a classic. Until then, it's all balloon juice.
Maybe thats not such a good idea. I guarantee that If I were scrounging the planet for info concerning my 71 firebird, the dealer would know squat, the manufacturer would likely know squat. Fortunately us Pontiakers have Pontiac Historical Services, which is independent from the manufacturer. Heck, I've been trying for five years to find out how many 71 Firebird Esprits were equipped with a 400. Nobody seems to know.
How many of these Marquis Broughams were built? Is it a classic because of the way it's optioned? Sorry, but there's more to it as to what defines a car as a classic.
My bird is one of 3000 cars with tilt wheel. Total Pontiac F body production was in excess of 50,000 cars. It also has the am/fm stereo w/ 8 track. Rarity does not directly equate with a classic.
"If it is a GM product or an import, even less than 25 years, if someone says it is a classic, it is not questioned."
I'd like to think my firebird is a classic, for registration and insurance purposes it qualifies. but in the marketplace I really don't know. All I know It's worth what someone is willing to pay me for it, and right now 70-72 base model/ Esprit model firebird are not commanding strong money vs a Formula and especially a Trans Am. I dont have concrete proof but from what I have seen on the net and other classifieds it may be possible that there may be near as many of my model bird left on the road as the Formulas and T/A's(early 70')s, even though the production of the of the base/Esprit models were significantly higher.
Granted YMMV and my vehicle is one case. I know 70-73 pontiac f-bodies like the back of my hand, and at the same time have a realistic grasp on my vehicle's worth. I just wanted to point out how your logic of your 85 Merc may not seperate it from all the others.
Meanwhile, I'll side with the market.
No, I didnt. First you said 2 dealers told you it was a classic and collector car and then it was confirmed by Ford. So far that says nothing.
"The reason is, none of the publishers has checked with them before pricing it way less than what it is actually worth. " Checked with them? Your convinced that Ford is dictating the value of the car. Sorry, but the market demand will dictate that.
"Seeing how many of the same features it was equipped with as the 1985 Lincoln Continental, I drove it to 2 new car lots just to compare new cars' features my Marquis'. Each dealership offered me $5,000.00 for it. I told each I just got it. And it was not for sale. But I was curious why they offered me that much for it. Each told me it is a classic and collector's item. "
You mention how its equipped. See my previous post.
"So, each strongly encouraged me to check with the Ford Motor Company. I did and found out both dealerships were right." I was told its retail value would only continue to appreciate under certain circumstances. One is to leave it original. The other was to keep the miles on it low. I have done both."
That can be applied to many vehicles new, old, and collector. You further elaborate on fuel injection, limited edition, fewer made in US vs Canada. NOT factors you can put your full faith in when determining a classic.
Then in your next post you mention options such as the stereo, rear defogger, trunk release and the steel bumper and frame. See my previous post.
"Like parm, I see you being swayed by the majority"
I have not been swayed by anyone. Especailly when I just gave a VERY real world example of why my car is not worth big bucks while at the same time shares many things in common with your Merc like options, engine type, number built, etc.
Again, should you respond, just how many of these cars were built?
"it is twisting around some and ignoring others."
Sorry you see it that way. Sounds like you got a reality check and flat out dont like what you heard.
"So, I will not waste my time responding to you. It's not worth it."
Your right, its not since you have yet to indicate anything that suggests that your car is a classic, other than " 2 dealers and Ford say so" Again, a harsh reality check.
"You want to act like you know more than we do."
Whos acting? Who's we?
Go list it(with a very high reserve)on that auction page that starts with an E. That would be a good place to start determining a value fo that car.
You should have taken the 5000 that was offered. Thats strong money for that car. Why? You said it yourself- "It is why none knows it is a classic and collector's item, as well as a limited edition."
No one KNOWS because there is WEAK or NO DEMAND for that car.
A 1966 Chevrolet Caprice isn't a classic either, by the way, nor is a 1956 Chevrolet. Nor is a 1928 Model A Ford.
True Classics are 1948 cars and older, and only CERTAIN pre 1948 cars qualify. There is a published list of these cars, and the list has been rather laboriously worked over by well-informed historians, in an effort to make the word "classic" make sense.
True classics MUST exhibit exceptional styling, engineering and performance. A 1980s Mercury does not appear to meet any of these particular criteria, nice ride though it might be. It's just an everyday sedan built for family duty.
"Collectible" cars are a much more vague terminology, but usually refer to older cars that are collected and restored by a definable group of enthusiasts. If there is a Mercury Marquis Brougham owner's club, I'm not aware of it, or of a magazine devoted to the marque,or a national meet somewhere. But Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, MGs, old VW bugs, these are all legitimately collectible and serviced by all kinds of clubs, groups, magazines, parts outlets and restorers.
So "classic" is definitely out, and "collectible" status for an '80s Merc sedan is highly doubtful.
This leaves "Special Interest" cars, which is a catch-all phrase that pretty much includes everything. The term Special Interest sort of implies some "market action". A good example would be the 94-96 Impala SS models, which are too new to be classics or collectibles, but which are pretty hot in the used car market. There is obviously a demand for them, because the price is way higher than a 94-96 Ford or Lincoln or Buick. SOMETHING is going on.
So anyway, while I am genuinely happy that you like your car so much, I think the price guides are pretty accurate--$1,500 to $3,500 all day long for the best ones in the world. And I don't anticipate the price going up very much as time goes on. In fact, I doubt many of these cars will survive, because it won't be worth restoring them as they age or have accidents, etc.
This is why I suggest you just drive it and enjoy it and use it up. There is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, just enjoyment in the Here and Now IMO.
There's not a price guide on the market that supports this dealer's "theory" on Mercury Marquis collectibility. Many do not even list the car.
So either 8 or 10 respected publications are crazy, as well as me, or he is.
Place your bets! (and watch what you say--lol!)
This is one way to "revitalize" the message board here. I admit the postings have been scarce the last few days. I just can't believe what I've just read was serious.
Pardon me while I take my Citroen 2CV to the dragstrip, where I expect it to run with slammed Hondas and Acuras. I'll stop and get some aviation fuel on the way there.
Oh yes-I have a Mercury story too. In highschool there was this guy who had a 56 Mercury Monterey 4door. He said it had an "Olds 404" with a 5.12 rearend. Looking at the original Mercury 312 that was under the hood, he still insisted it was an Olds. I don't know.
Whatever floats your boat I guess.
"I know the truth and the facts. I did my research." Your way of saying "Im right and you're wrong" is more like it.
What truth? Ford says this and therefore it must be so. Your research tells nothing.
The only truth is listing it and seeing what the market will bear.
"Actually, it is like the Ford Motor Company said. Very few have that information. The reason is, they did not check with them. And most I have checked are biased. It is toward GM products. The Ford Motor Company knows this, too. It is why we do not go by them."
Why would a representative of Ford Motor Company say flat out "Well our products are just not as popular as GM and consequently the demand is not as high, therefore the value(s) has been dictated as such."
" I will not mention the sources." Of course not. After all, why would you want to substantiate your claim with any credible sources.
Lets say 2 dealers and GM say my car is a classic and its value is going to increase by
XX dollars because "its hard to find has rare and desirable options, chrome bumpers and steel frame". I have been told/subsequently offered $9000 for my car. Unlike you, I would have been all over that as that would be strong money for my car. Having tested the market recently I know what the market will currently bear for my car. So dont fool yourself, the facts are NOT all there.
For the most part though, these cars really don't have a whole lot going for them. They're a product of the '80's, they made a ton of them, and for the most part they were just mainstream family cars...4-doors and not a lot of performance.
If I had one and someone offered me $5000 for it, I'd take it in a heartbeat! My grandparents had a really nice '85 LTD that they traded for a brand-new '89 Taurus, and they only got about $6800 for it back then! I think it was around $12000 new.
You are making a fool out of yourself and you are WAY out of your league.
Someone is toying with you...BIG TIME and since you liked what your heard, you have fallen hook, line and sinker!
You have brought a lot of humor to this forum, however!
How's that for rare?
Prolly shoulda kept it...
Big difference in value!
They got a purty big club, though. The F&I mgr. told me I was getting a "classic" deal. Does that count?
Prolly shoulda kept it...
The only classic my family has ever owned was an '82 Malibu Classic Estate wagon. Well, we did have a collector's edition though, grandma's '85 LeSabre Limited Collector's Edition. Oh, it was limited all right. Of the roughly 150,000 or so LeSabres sold that year, the majority were "Limiteds". Even better, every Limited was also a Collector's Edition! FWIW, they had a bunch of leftover hood ornaments from the '85 LeSabre, so they used up their inventory on the '96 Roadmaster Collector's Edition!
Maybe it ain't a '42 T&C woody, but...
Wow! I can't imagine what one of those must be worth? anyone know?
Also, the cars you just mentioned will be "recognized as collectibles" ?
Really? where did you "check up" on these? The Chevy dealer?
Some of the ugliest cars ever built!
That was a quote from you to Mr. Shiftright.
Sorry...can't type anymore, I'm laughing too hard!
You said you wouldn't sell it for 5000.00. How much would you let it go for?
Maybe I'm missing the mark here?
In the past, usually the high-dollar, in demand cars tended to be 2-door hardtops and convertibles, and the bigger the engine and higher the trim level, the better. Nobody got excited about 4-doors, although 2-door post sedans were popular for hot-rodding and racing, since they were the lightest and sturdiest body style. Nobody got excited about 6-cyl or base V-8 engines, either.
Unfortunately, most of the things that separated the desireable models from the undesireables back then no longer exist. The hardtop and convertible are all but extinct, heck, a 2-door ANYTHING is pretty rare nowadays, unless you want it as a hatchback. They might have a base engine and an upgrade, but nothing on the scale and variety of the good old days.
Just thinkin' out loud...
I should know better than to try to match wits with an expert...
sorry...won't happen again.
Oh..since you like to believe what you hear and read...Just for laughs, I brought up a 1985 Mercury Marquis on Kelly Blue book.
You can do the same thing.
I put in my zip code (now they may be worth a LOT more in yours). I tried to list all of the "rare" options that yours has. It defaulted to 96,000 miles.
Came up with a RETAIL figure of 1580.00.
Imagine that!
And I think we all know Kelly numbers are usually higher than reality.
But I could be wrong, I suppose...
Still laughing?
When I'm not chuckling irrepressibly, I'm really quite curious...
Or better yet, enter it in an old car auction with no reserve and see what happens.
I guarantee you, your laughing will quickly stop!
I'm actually a bit surprised that a/c is listed as an option. The base price on this car was $10,026 way back then. Now I know a lot of stuff was optional back then, but please, PLEASE somebody tell me that when you paid $10K+ for a car back then, it at least had air conditioning standard!
I don't have a lot of faith in this online guide though, because it also lets you check off "6-cyl engine", which gives you a 10% deduction. The '79 New Yorker had a 360-2bbl standard, although a 318-4bbl was a credit option, I believe. The Slant Six was NEVER available in an R-body New Yorker.
Also, for $5721, I'd expect it to be the nicest 1979 New Yorker left in existence! Just for reference, at the all-Mopar Nationals at Carlisle last year, there were two other R-body NYers, both for sale. I had mine up there, but it was just on the fun field so my club could use it in their car count (plus it gets you better parking!) Anyway, one of 'em DID look like it just rolled off the showroom floor. I think it only had about 39K miles on it, and the only flaw I could find was that the headliner was just starting to let go. They wanted $5500 for it. The other was an '81 that had about 200,000 miles on it, but had some major work put into it. It had a copcar 360 that had been rebuilt and dynoed at 213 hp at the wheels (they were only good for around 185-195 net, so I'd imagine it was pretty powerful). Also had a 9.25 rear with 3.23 gears, and a dual exhaust, and alloy wheels that I think came off of a Mirada/Cordoba. It had a lot of work put into it, so it looked good in spite of the mileage. That guy wanted $7800 for his. It also had a power sunroof. I have no idea how much these cars would really be worth, but I'm sure that their owners either came down in price big-time, or they still have the cars in their possession.
Speaking of which, Carlisle is another excellent place to find inflated prices in general. I think some people take what the car is actually worth and then multiply it by about 2 or 3 times!
Low retail $971, average retail: $1696, high retail: $2171. This includes $46 for a low-mileage adjustment. The only variable was for mileage though, so evidently engines (I think the Brougham had the 232 V-6 standard though) and options (a/c probably standard on the Brougham as well) don't affect the price much.
Now here's something interesting, though...NADA's used car guides only go back to 1984. For 1983 and earlier, they use what they call a "classic car consumer price". Maybe this is part of where the misnomer for "classic" comes from?
Anyway, I checked an '83 Marquis Brougham sedan, and it came back with the following:
Low retail: $1725, average retail: $3200, and high retail: $4625. For some reason though, they tell you to deduct 10% for the 6-cyl engine! In the classic car guide, it also doesn't ask for mileage, and there are no options to check off other than the aforementioned 6-cyl.
Now there is no way in hell an '83 Marquis is going to command almost twice as much as an '85!
I think I'm going to email NADA and ask 'em when I can expect my check for $5721 for my NYer!
Fully loaded '65 Olds 98 convertible. Diamond tuck and roll interior. 425 4 bbl. Mileage was around 300K when I sold it...
I suggest you read and ask questions, and open your mind to learning something.
What book?
Again, what's the title?
We all have our opinions. Just because it's in print doesn't make it gospel.
That Mercury in MY opinion is a very lackluster car that wasn't popular when new and has little value now. It is NOT a 5000.00 car by ANY stretch of the imagination.
I've spent over 30 years pretty much involved in the old car hobby. I have attended countless auctions and car shows. I don't claim to be an expert but I do know what is desirable and what is not.
If you happen to like the car, that's all that is important.
Gawrsh...
I'm just asking. Anybody actually seen a Marquis optioned like this?
The real value is what that car (or any car) will actually SELL for.
The options that you think are so valuable in this case, add little if anything to that car's value.
Now exactly like a '57 Chevy with fuel injection.
I would love to see it go through an auction.
Now if you send your VIN to Ford, maybe they can tell you the MSRP of that car when it was brand-new, but there's no way they could possibly know what it's worth now. I'm sure they wouldn't care, either. That car was originally designed by a bunch of people who defected and went to Chrysler, and most of them are probably dead or drawing big pension checks by now! Besides, Ford doesn't sell cars. Dealerships sell cars. Ford tried to sell cars, through factory-direct dealerships, and IIRC they failed miserably!
In 1985, the base powerplant in the base sedan and brougham sedan was a 2.3 4-cyl engine mated to a 3-speed automatic. Wagons had a 3.8 (232) V-6 mated to a 3-speed automatic. The LX had a 5.0 (302) V-8 with a 4-bbl carb, mated to a 4-speed AOD. It also had a quicker 3.27:1 rear end, whereas the 3.8 only had a 2.73:1.
The 4-speed automatic was an LX-only feature, not available on the base or brougham. Likewise, a 4-cyl turbo was not available, and neither was a 5-speed. They WERE available on the Thunderbird (didn't the Mustang also have a 2.3 Turbo?) Since they're all on the same Fox chassis, they're probably all listed together in the same manual.
However, they were not all available on the LTD in 1985. At least not according to Consumer Guide. Also, the only 5.0 ever offered in the Fox-based LTD was the '84-85 LX's 165 hp 4-bbl unit. For 1986, as production was phased out in favor of the Taurus, only the 3.8 V-6 was available.
Now maybe Consumer Guide is wrong...who knows? For one thing, they're only going to cover U.S. market vehicles, so maybe a few aberrations were spawned for Canadian or Mexican markets?
However, going to the EPA website, http://www.fueleconomy.org/ also shows that, for 1985, the only engine choices were a 2.3 4-cyl/3-speed auto (in two different states of tune for 49 states/California), a 3.8/3-speed auto (again in 2 different states of tune), and the H.O. 5.0/4-speed auto. No other choices. Of course, that website could be wrong too. After all, it's only the government!
Given this, it is hard for me to understand your position here, but I'll try to listen.
No harm done I guess, except I hope you don't count on this car being worth much in the future, as you will be disappointed, and please don't invest lots of money or energy into it expecting a payback of some sort.
Anyone think they would have accepted an '85 Mercury?
Even Mitch Silver wouldn't want to run one through!
Please tell us who you talked to at Ford and GM who is giving you this information.
If Ford quoted you an MSRP, (which I doubt, BTW) it would be only the price it was offered for as a new car, back in 1983.