Scion xB - Hip to be square

caneau · April 2003

Not to sound egotistical, but Toyota designed a car to appeal to me and my generation. I was born in 1985 which places me in the dead center of Generation-Y. This car is supposed to appeal to me and quite simply, it doesn't. Do I mind boxy cars? Not at all, I drive a Jeep Cherokee and I love the car. I think the only boxier production car today is an H1 and it too, looks good. So what's wrong with cars such as the xB Scion or any of the similarly inspired boxes on wheels such as the Honda Element?
For starters, they're UGLY! I can't explain why they are ugly, but why is Carmen Electra better looking than Rosie? The Scion is the more hideous of the two in my opinion. The Element at least sort of looks like a CRV with a bad hair day, but the xB, well just look at it, need I say more?
Second, power anyone? 105 horses? 1.5 liters? I don't care if I can break windows with the 1,300 watts of audio power if I can't run away for the cops who want to arrest me for violating a noise ordnance (just kidding, my Jeep has a 2 speaker audio system that starts to crackle if turned up anywhere close to loud, but I purchase cars for different reasons than audio systems). Honestly though, having what I think must be the least powerful car available in the US is downright dangerous. Why? Try merging from an off ramp in front of a semi traveling at 80 miles per hour with a Scion. I speak in the second person tense because I don't want to be anywhere close when someone attempts this. I have better things to do than spend an afternoon testifying in court after the car is flattened. 105 hp - there are 600cc motorcycles that have more power than that. Next, mass anyone? 2500 lbs? What? I can't imagine what would happen if that collided with a 6,000 lbs. 3/4 ton truck.
Finally, if anyone has read my posts, I almost always ask or imply why someone should buy this car? Why should a 17 year old want an under powered, ugly car made by the same company that makes the oh so exciting Avalon and Camry? About the only reason I could find was to stand in one place and blast the stereo. I don't think the engine could handle driving, AC, and having the stereo turned on. No kidding, I've seen old Honda Civics with comprable power nearly die with the AC on. I cannot speak for every 16 or 17 year old out there, but from my experience, $17,000 of metal and rubber that sits in one place is useless.
All things considered, I'd rather buy a used Mustang GT with a Mach 460 sound system. In day to day usage, it sounds just as good, and what do you know, it has nearly three times the power.
If I am right, and I probably am judging from my experience with cars and being a teenager myself, who is going to buy this car? First, parents who want to seem "hip" to their kids. The parents and kids have to both be completely oblivious to anything automotive and buy into the greasy Toyota dealer saying, "Oh, this car is the latest 'rage', everybody in California is driving one..." The other demographic that possibly could buy this car are people who want to be, for reason or another, "with the times". This could be an older person who wants to revitalize their youth (think same demographic who were on the waiting list for VW Beetles) or teenagers who are outcasts and want to improve their status in the high school hierarchy.
Are these two groups enough to keep Scion going? Maybe, but I think they will eventually realize how awful this car is and the resale value will tumble after the first year. Toyota will have to be forced to improve the engine (much like Chrysler is doing with the PT) or lower the MSRP.
In either case, I'm not trading in my Jeep anytime soon, even if I do have to listen to my crackling speakers.
J.

'97 Jeep XJ 4.0L

a_l_hubcaps · April 2003

108 horsepower is not underpowered in a SMALL car. My brother drives a 1977 Toyota Celica ST with a whopping 92-horsepower engine (the famous 20R I4) and it is loads of fun to drive. I think the weight of the car, the gearing of the trans and the handling can make a big difference. Initial reviews seem to indicate that the Scions do not feel slow, and I am inclined to believe them.

-Andrew L

ateixeira · May 2003

It's not underpowered for its weight. The two go hand-in-hand. Edmunds reached 60 in 9 seconds, that's not bad by any means for this price class. $14 grand, remember, this is not a $25k RSX Type S or WRX.

I really don't see Gen Y buying used Cherokees and Mustangs. How can you afford to gas 'em up at $2 a gallon?

-juice

caneau · May 2003

Agh, my previous message didn't post and I don't feel like rewriting it. Essentially, this car is great for stop and go driving around town. I will not dispute that point. The way the car is geared though make it suitable for just that though, nothing else. If I had to pick between that and my Jeep for traveling any distance on the freeway, I pick my Jeep, or any other car for that matter, over the Scion. First, wind resistance is calculated by squaring velocity. That translates into a car traveling at 60 miles per hour using about half of its power to overcome wind resistance, and in the case of the box on wheels in question, probably more. Second, I highly doubt this car can exceed 85 miles per hour simply because it maxes out its gearing. Although I do not regularly drive at 85 mph, occasionally when I need to merge or pass on the freeway, I need to accelerate to that speed, fast. We can only pray that some first time driver doesn't have a rude awakening on the grill of a Kenworth T2000 because his or her car could not get up to speed fast enough.
As for gas, considering this vehicle probably uses premium gas when compared to a Mustang that gets 17-18 mpg, it is not that big of a difference. I'm an exception to the rule by doing about 25k-30k miles per year, but most teenagers drive closer to 8k-10k. When you work it out, the difference in gas price is relatively small per year.
Regarding Gen Y buying big cars, parents are buying bigger and bigger cars to protect their children in the event of an accident, and rightfully so. Crash tests can say whatever they want because they are testing against a wall where nearly 100% of the energy in the accident is returned back to the vehicle. In real life, mass wins. If I had a choice of what vehicle to be inside during an accident, this would rank right between a Ford Pinto and a Geo Metro.
Maybe I'm wrong and maybe there will be plenty of young excited buyers waiting to buy the boxiest car on the block. All I know is that I will not be among their masses.

RinoC · May 2003

Why didn't they stick Corolla engine in Scion xB? Corolla engine has more power and gets better mileage than Scion's. Cost is not a good explanation. There is not that much difference in price between low-end Corolla and Scion xB.

ateixeira · May 2003

You can't just look at retail prices of different platforms like that. The xB costs more than the Echo, so it would similarly cost more than the Corolla with that engine, putting it up against bigger competition in that price range (CR-V, Escape, Forester, Outlander).

The Scion is based on the Echo, and uses the Echo engine. That costs a lot less then re-engineering the chassis to handle a bigger block. New engine probably means new tranny, bigger engine mounts, beefier suspension, and pretty soon you end up with a RAV4. :-)

I think they'll address power in other ways, they already offer a 10hp upgrade for 118hp fully under warranty.

-juice

muffin_man · May 2003

Some sort of forced induction is also going to be offered.

RinoC · May 2003

Because it looks blocky doesn't make it a pseudo-SUV. It doesn't offer an all-wheel drive nor have high enough clearance. I can see how people could look at cars like Matrix and think it as a kind of SUV but I look at Matrix and its ilk such as xB as more of a tall wagon. Also xB is way too small to be considered as anything close to a SUV. It's not even 160" long!

I see your point about the cost of re-engineering the Echo platform. But I still don't understand how smaller engine with less power has worse fuel economy, considering how light xB is.

I was thinking about xB as a commuter but I guess I would be better off getting an used Corolla or Civic. They are cheaper, bigger, roomier, has probably better reliability and better gas mileage!

ateixeira · May 2003

It is very short, but interior room is amazing for its size. So it's similar in space to just about any compact SUV.

Fuel economy isn't bad by any means, IMO. Maybe it could be better with the 1.8l but again that would cost a lot more most likely.

Civic and Corolla are sedans, no way no how could they fit even half of what you could in an xB with the seats folded.

But I bet they'll be more refined, quieter riding, handle better, i.e. have other advantages.

-juice

muffin_man · May 2003

The xB is just the next of the wagon-type cars, Matrix, Aerio SX, PT Cruiser, etc.

ateixeira · May 2003

Of the cars you list, I think it competes most closely with the Aerio SX. It has more room, but about the same level of interior materials, and the same price.

-juice

muffin_man · May 2003

I agree, the PT cruiser is a class up, but I think the Matrix is similar.

cinemafia · May 2003

Just wanted to chime in after a long hiatus on the Edmunds forums (try 2 years!).

Anyway, I just found out about Scion a week ago and I love the xB. I remember seeing the bbX concept and thinking, "Oh that's cool, but they won't even sell it in Japan, let alone here,". I guess I was wrong on both parts. Since I live in north L.A., I've decided to get one as soon at they become available (June 9?). There's a ton of Toyota dealers around here and all have made plans to sell Scions so there should be no problem.

I've been wanting to trade my Altima of 2 years in for something new, and up until now I've wanted a VW. I've always loved VW's, and my wife has a '01 Beetle, though I've wanted a GTi myself. Problem is, getting a GTi is a $21k+ affair and at this point I just couldn't afford the payments. However, seeing this Scion xB available with such a unique style and options at such a low overhead is perfect,

Obviously the xB is very different from a GTi in terms of performance and cost, however there are a lot of things I like about it. I love the box look, it's a radical departure from the streamlining of the early 90's on. I've always liked small, boxy cars with lots of straight lines and 90 degree angles, especially the Jeep Wrangler and A1 Volkswagens. However, while this may translate into a lower top speed, it really isn't going to affect daily driving (especially city driving).

At the moment, the only real competitor for the xB is the aformentioned Suzuki Aerio (Nissan may decide to sell it's Japanese Cube here in the states as a more direct competitor to the xB, but who knows). I like the Aerio a lot, especially since it has more power than any other four-cylinder vehicle Suzuki has put out, and is available in four-wheel drive. Only problem is you can only get 4wd with an automatic, and of course the Aerio is about $1,000 more in base model form, doesn't get quite as good gas mileage and has neither the amount of factory-installed options nor will it ever have the amount of aftermarket accessories.

Still, the xB and Aerio are very close models. I think the xB has won me over with its being unique and having a lot of options. I don't think the power issue is going to be a big one, at least with the air intake and a 5-speed. 118 hp versus 2,450 pounds is only about 20.6 pounds per horsepower. That's only 1 lb/hp more than my 150hp Altima, and it's 4.65 lb/hp LESS than my wife's 115hp Beetle.

So, once I actually try one I'll make my final decision, but for now I'm pretty set on getting one ASAP. I'll have to keep everyone else updated.

cinemafia · May 2003

Oh wait, release date is June 3, not June 9. ONLY FOUR MORE WEEKS!

I'm getting more excited every day...

toledo19 · May 2003

Will dealers be allowed to raise the MSRP if the car is in demand?

ateixeira · May 2003

I doubt that would happen. It's a very small vehicle, and those tend to struggle in the USA. The Mini Cooper is about the only exception, but it's a cult car.

-juice

a_l_hubcaps · May 2003

I believe Scion is a one-price Saturn style sales method, so you pay exactly what is written on the sticker. That's part of the explanation for why the prices seem kind of low -- no negotiations.

-Andrew L

ateixeira · May 2003

That's correct, so you should look at their prices compared to street prices for competitors, in many cases the invoice price.

-juice

bigbabyjesus · May 2003

Toyota and Honda has it all wrong. The last thing that kids want to do these days is to look like dorks driving the butt-ugly Scions and Elements. I bet the first kid that pulls up in one in the high school parking lot will be tormented relentlessly (especially if it's a guy).
But that does not mean that these vehicles will not sell well. They are actually great cars, except for their outer shells. It's just that the people buying them won't be the Gen-X or Gen-Y kids. It'll be their parents.
I have seen 3 Elements so far around where I live and all of them have been driven by middle-age adults.

(When I was younger, all I wanted was a mid-size sedan with a V-6 priced around $15-16K. I didn't want or need luxuries like power everything. All I wanted was a mid-size car like an Accord with a V-6, stick shift, A/C and that's about it. I could roll up my own damn windows, lock my own locks, and control my own cruising speed. Just a simple, practical and fast car.)

ateixeira · May 2003

I wanted a sports coupe. Not a box. Any how, we should not assume today's kids have the same tastes we did back then.

-juice

jontyrees · May 2003

confirming the theory that the Scion and Aerio are competitors. Actually, anything below about $17-18k that has some space for hauling stuff around is a competitor. If you could get a CR-V at that price, it would be in the frame also - just because it has a slightly higher suspension and the manufacturer dubs it an SUV doesn't make it functionally different. SUV, Sportswagon, microvan - who cares what you call them?

It'll be interesting to see if Scion prices hold at the published levels. The dealers have to commit to not marking them up, but there are going to be loads of dealerships, so competition should occur.

BTW - I'm very happy with my 5sp Aerio SX - paid $13470 w/ $0 down, 0% 60mos financing. Excellent value and a lot of fun to drive around town.

ateixeira · May 2003

It'll be interesting to see folks cross-shop these. Looks like Suzuki has slightly lower prices and that long warranty to compete with.

-juice

curiousgeorge7 · May 2003

I totally agree - - xB is definitely NOT an SUV. (aren't there enough of those already?) But I was amazed at the interior space when I drove one in LA at a Scion event ... forget about the Civic / Corolla comparison. xB blows them away in front and back seat room.

ateixeira · May 2003

How was handling? Did they feel like tall, heavy Echos? Or more like a Matrix? How'd you like the steering, braking, and acceleration?

-juice

strager · May 2003

I found the xA more fun to drive than the xB, but they are close. Very little body roll and the steering is well weighted. Braking on the xB is top notch, but the ride is bumpy. Also heard more engine noise with the xB. Acceleration is just fine, since I'm not into drag racing.

The deal killer for me is the lack of side airbags. Yeah, I know we've all done without side airbags for all these years, but I'd like side airbags for a car that I plan to keep for several years. Also I'm OK with xB styling, but have some concern as to whether it could acquire Aztek status with the general public.

coolguyky7 · May 2003

One reason that I think some vehicles are so ugly is that they are basically boxes that designers have tried to smooth out and add curves to. The xB isn't like that, there are no curves added. It's curve free, as opposed to very boxy Aztecs, Aerios, and Elements that have been curved to be more mainstream. The fact that the xB hasn't really been made mainstream makes it much more unique and hopefully inciting less criticism.

delivereguy · May 2003

Wow, test drive events, I'm really jealous for you California folks. Looks like just another week for you west coast people. I'm in GA, so not till next Feb.

( I have to admit I don't even come close to Scion target market, at 46! But as you can see from my handle, I deliver newspapers and a small box with lots of interior space that gets 30 mpg like the xB looks like it would fit my needs perfect. I have been driving an 89 Civic Lx sedan, 268,000 (ok I've had to put it back together a couple of times, but over all its been a great car and 30 mpg). I have had thoughts of getting something new and the xB really looks promising. Scion/Toyota had the greddy show model at the Atlanta Auto show back in March, but was really low profile, no spokes person and pretty much hands off, just kept putting out tons of the Scion magazine.

The xB 108-118 hp engine looks really good considering an 89 civic 1.5 is rated at 92 hp, ie anything would be an improvement. Also like the 185/60-15 tires, not to outrageous, but not to small. The suspension sounds like it set on the firm side which is good since I have a tendency to carry really heavy loads. The only good thing about the civic's 175/70-13 tires is there really cheap$$$. Speaking of $$$, it looks like with a few accessories, ect., the price will be in the $14k-$15k range which seems pretty competitive when you consider it comes with A/C, ABS/traction/skid control, mp3 radio, power windows/locks, ect.

tcpip1 · May 2003

I really like the ABS/traction/skid control included feature. I don't care much about auto-mirrors, heated-mirrors, heated-seats, auto-lock, auto-window, leather-seats, high-powered audio, etc. But safty features should not be made unavailable for lower trim-level cars. For example, Honda CR-V and Element do not offer ABS for the LX trim.

It's like implying that people who are less affluent should not drive a safer car. Is ABS technology that expensive to maufacture given that the technology has been around for a long time?

I hope someday cars will be made to equip with all the same level of safty features regardless of the trim level, just like seat belts.

jvkalra · May 2003

I just checked out the xB at my local dealer - this is a really fun car! But the lack of side airbags was a big surprise considering this is a 2004 model. According to the Detroit News article I read, Toyota claims that side airbags are impossible to install in the xB. My impression is that the xB is based on the Yaris/Vitz and those cars now have side airbags so why not the xB?

While I was in the dealership, I overheard another customer telling his wife that these tiny cars (xA and xB) were "deathtraps". I disagree with that assessment but the lack of side airbags on the xB really sucks. A poor marketing decision IMO.

coolguyky7 · May 2003

Did you notice any other people looking at the new Scions? Could you please give an age estimate of those people? I wonder if Scion has already missed its intended audience.

ateixeira · May 2003

I expect buyers will be young, given the prices.

Loaded up Elements break $20k and most buyers seem to be older folks.

-juice

jvkalra · May 2003

coolguy: The few people that I saw looking at Scion were typical Toyota customers, none of them struck me as particularly young. The person who remarked about Scion cars being "deathtraps" was buying a Highlander and seemed to be around 60.

coolguyky7 · May 2003

Let the 60 year old have his Highlander while the more carefree youngins' get the xA and xB!

coolguyky7 · May 2003

Did the dealer have the xA? If so, what was your impression?

Did you get a chance to examine the interior material quality? If so, how would you rate it?

jvkalra · May 2003

I thought the xA was a little cramped if you plan to take some friends along in the back, that's why I'm leaning towards the xB. Fit/finish inside/outside on both cars is very high quality for the price. For that matter, I think that's true of any car that is sold by Toyota in the Japanese market.

coolguyky7 · May 2003

My only main complaint about these two cars is that they don't offer cruise control. Other than that, there isn't much to complain about other than the lack of an available sunroof...but that would just complicate the whole Scion process.

lenscap · May 2003

Will somebody who lives outside of California be able to by an xA? I know someone who is interested. Can they go to a dealer there, buy one, and drive it to a different state?

coolguyky7 · May 2003

I don't think I've heard a bad thing yet about these two cars!

i_luv_toyota · May 2003

According to http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - =2003scion_buyprocess

Go down to where it says "The Future"

"The Scion xA and xB will go on sale mid-
June exclusively in California. In February 2004, the market will expand to cover the south, southeast and east coast. A few short months later, Scion will simultaneously complete the national rollout and launch the third Scion vehicle, which will be stylish, sleek and sporty. This staggered rollout allows sufficient time for ramp-up of production and further refinement of Scion's new distribution and sales processes."

So unless your willing to wait until February 2004 (a few months longer if in Midwest, ie Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.), then you have to go to California to buy it.

There might be complications registering and insuring in states other than California because they haven't heard of a "Scion" yet.

I live in Connecticut, so it's Feb 2004 for me too.

ateixeira · May 2003

Ask your dealer if they can install cruise. I had that installed on my '98 Subie, it's been perfect. Just a couple hundred bucks.

-juice

coolguyky7 · May 2003

I live in the Midwest but it would be awesome to ship a Scion here this summer and be the only person in hundreds of miles to probably have one. If a person did that, he/she'd definitely get lots of looks!

ateixeira · May 2003

It'll get looks even when it's a common vehicle. For now, oh yeah, it'll garner attention.

-juice

xcrnr · June 2003

Anyone know of an aftermarket cc, perhaps by the same company that had one for the Prius, when it first came out and cc wasn't offered by "T"?

coolguyky7 · June 2003

Thanks for the great link!

ateixeira · June 2003

That might include tax. Leather and the alloys might be a grand each, plus whatever other options it had. It's common for dealers to heavily accessorize the first few cars.

-juice

lazlo3 · June 2003

The 19,000 I paid was including tax and all the options. There was no negotiation on the price whatsoever with the dealer. Therefore, there is no such thing as a "good deal" on a scion. The leather seats were somewhat unnecessary, but they look and feel great.
I also tested a matrix(I don't fit into it: my head rubs on the ceiling) and an element(too big for my garage, and the rear doors too weird).
I am very happy with it - the car is perfect for my small family.

muffin_man · June 2003

So your sticker was about $17,000 or so. That sounds great fully loaded and with leather. Did your options include the cold air intake?

lazlo3 · June 2003

You bet! I got everyting except the LED lights and various appliques

strager · June 2003

I'm also planning on getting a xB later this summer - this is a really terrific car. Just nitpicking here, but I found that the engine noise sort of resonates inside around 35-50 mph. Other than that it's quiet. Would like to hear your comments about engine noise.

What kind of mileage are you getting in just city driving?

ateixeira · June 2003

Just a thought, but you can use the stuff they use to insulate stereo equipment on the firewall to lessen engine noise.

-juice

Scion xB - Hip to be square

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