I'd take that approach to the price. Take a look at the Dodge Ram 2500/3500 for a moment. This vehicle has a standard 5.7L V8 with an upgrade to the 5.9L I6 Cummins Diesel. The upgrade there is a bit over $5000 (on the window sticker). I don't think Chrysler would charge $8000. If individual dealerships decide to participate in "market adjustments" because of limited supply...then wait...or shop...or negotiate.
If the article didn't say it was an upcharge to "sticker", I might believe it. The last word out of DC's mouth was it would be sticker priced about the same as the V6. However, a few mark-up crazy dealers (say a $2,000 premium for being the lucky dope they'll sell it to), no rebates, no discounts, etc. then you might get to an $8,000 premium. And somebody will pay that and smile. Oh well.
Now is the right time to blow hot and cold because the price of oil is going up. There is a saying here: (~translation) one proposes while the other disposes. The market price should adjust by itself as long as the customers do negociate and don't accept the first offer. I was plain lucky to buy my truck just before the dealership's financial year ended. The launching period of a new product is also very juicy for the wise customer. Nevertheless, even if oil gets to $100 per barrel, the Liberty CRD will still be ok compared to others. Today I'm paying diesel fuel 1.05 Euro per liter (~5USD per USGal).
The South African market seems a bit different than the European. We have an intermediate all-terrain market segment where vehicles have at least one lockable differential and mechanical transfer case. The Nissan X-Trail, Subaru and BMW X3 over here are considered big 4WD all-road station wagons. The Nissan 'Terrano II' diesel is the closest competitor in spirit, but doesn't have the feel nor power nor ease of shifting the transfer case that Jeep provides with the Selec-Trac, and it's almost as heavy.
Well, I have a friend looking at the CRD. She asked me, since I have owned 3 diesels, am a dorky MechEng, and,.....
My quick understanding of the CRD.
1. Comes with a 5 speed auto and a 2.8L turbo diesel made in Italy.
2. I always estimate that my diesels get about 25% better fuel econ than comparable engines with similiar power in the same vehicle. Diesel has 10% more BTU's per gallon, and the diesel cycle plus added compression ratio add in the other 15%. Depending on conditions, my diesels do someplace between 10% and 40% better in any particular load/driving cycle instance.
3. Jeep says the City/Hwy average for the V-6 is 19.5mpg (17/22). For the CRD it's 24.5mpg (22/27). Difference is about a 25% improvement with the diesel.
4. If you drive both vehicles 100,000 miles and buy fuel that costs $2.50 a gallon (Diesel always cheaper than unleaded in summer, always reversed in winter, since home heating oil is about the same stuff as diesel fuel) and get the average fuel economy stated above, then you will spend $12,800 with the gasser and about $10,200 with the Diesel. So, a diesel will save you $2600 in fuel costs....
5. My experiences with diesels are: a. Make more HP at low RPM's, good for towing and round town driving. b. They are less reliable (in shop more, thus the auto companies have to charge more to cover warranty expenses). c. Use alot more expensive oil and filter changes. d. They stink, but the ultra Low Sulfer diesel fuel coming (<15ppm sulfer, right now <500ppm) in 2006 should be waaaaayyyyy better.
So, thinking DC/Jeep shouldn't charge more than about $2600 premium for the CRD.
Just thought I'd mention the assumptions: 1. No time value of money adjustments 2. Assumed fuel will average $2.50 per gall for both gas and diesel, and no offset. 3. Arbitrarily selected 100,000 mile break-even point. 4. Didn't factor in depreciation differences between the two vehicles 5. Didn't factor in the PITA of finding diesel pumps.
My experiences are that most diesels (except maybe the cummins in the big Dodge and the mercedes auto engines) don't outlast their gas counterparts that much when driven similiarly, and cared for equally...
I could add a few comments: -Whatever the cost of fuel, the difference in mileage (~20%) will remain. -This italian diesel engine uses MB technology. -The break even point for most users only concerns the second hand market. -Many small diesels found on the international second hand market have more than 150,000 miles and still give good service. -Using modern synthetic oil, oil changes are less frequent (20,000 miles). -Body work costs more than engine repair/exchange.
To my understanding, it's the onboard computer that remains unknow as of reliability. I would be glad to get rid of this 'Sword of Damocles', or at least be well documented in case it fails. With the older diesel engines, it was fairly simple to drive back home after an incident had occured. This worries me especially when going off-road. It's not trivial here to get a 4x4 tow truck heavier than the Liberty...
'The base Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) for the Jeep Liberty CRD Sport 4x4 is $25,125, including $610 destination. The base MSRP for the Jeep Liberty CRD Limited 4x4 is $27,355, including $610 destination. The Jeep Liberty CRD will begin arriving in dealerships later this year.'
Pricing was released Nov 05 at an Auto Show in New England. The premium in price over the gas 3.7L V6 engine not only includes the CRD but also includes extra insulation for noise and liquid filled engine mounts for the vibration. At one time I thought DC was discussing adding extra options with the diesel package like; larger tires, Select Trac, etc. I guess we'll have to wait to see when one is able to configure it on the Jeep website.
Here are some details broken down by packages: Sport "B" Package will be $2020 more and will include the CRD, 16" Aluminum Wheels, ABS, Selec-Trac, and an Engine Block Heater Sport "C" Package will be $1710 more and will include the CRD, ABS, Selec-Trac, and an Engine Block Heater Limited "F" Package will be $1635 more and will include same as "C" package Limited "G" Package will be $1240 and will include the CRD, ABS, and an Engine Block Heater
Just doing some math here on the "B" package gas - wheels= 310, ABS=600, Heater=40, Selec-Trac (which you can't get until the "C" package really)=395. This is 1345. CRD=$675....not bad!!
I think a battery heater would be ideal for the very cold regions. This diesel engine doesn't 'stick' anymore because of the synthetic oil. Where I live -15C is common and the glow plugs stay on a bit longer; then engine starts promptly without smoking. Another good point is that you cannot 'flood' a diesel if you have a weak battery. In the worst case you boost your battery, and there it goes again. The transmission will have to warm for about 5 minutes before it can shift at 2100 rpm again. That's usually the time it takes me to clean the snow and ice off the truck...
I have been to a couple of local dealers and they look at me like im an alien when i ask about ordering a liberty diesel limited. Anybody have any suggestions in the philadelphia area???
Don't forget that all Jeep dealers won't get them. You have to have a diesel certified tech to sell them. It is not likely that a stand alone Jeep store has a diesel tech, or is willing to invest the money to train one for the potentially limited number of vehicles. Jack, I can probably answer your question...my email is in my profile.
I'm hoping in a year or so for a truck. I surf fish a lot and 4 wheel down the beach. The 295 lbs of torque would be more then enough for my use. If I buy a boat, then it would work for that too! Can't wait to see what develops. If they make one I will dump my Nissan and comeback to a US Mfger. Feedback Welcome
I agree with the wait & see. Remember how they blew the PT Cruiser's price way over the $14000 promised? They shot themselves in the foot big time on that one. A major aftermarket goldmine only 2nd to the Beetle.
I'm also concerned about the service and parts availability on an Italian diesel. I owned 2 Italian cars . . . .won't be a 3rd. Waited 6 months for the wrong part from a major dealer. Along with that, the prices on parts were outrageous.
I'm a diesel nut, wanting something like the diesel Nissan crewcab to be imported again. I've seen them in Africa, quite nice. But the EPA concerns aren't worth it to them yet.
The Liberty is interesting, but no 1st year model for me.
The fuel injection system of the CRD is made by Bosch, and you can find it's description on their web site: http://www.boschusa.com/AutoOrigEquip/Diesel/CommonRailSystem/ It could be reassuring to talk to your Bosch automotive-service people and ask them if they will carry the parts. Many people over here go directly to them. If not, I can testify outrageous pricing from DC dealers, and the enormous risk to take your truck to a foreign country where there is no such service.
I think that the initial number that we are being given of 5000 units this model year is not only to test the market, but to insure parts availability. Also, don't forget that although the engine is new for us here, it's not a new engine for the brand or for VM Motori. My understanding is that it has a good reputation, so hopefully parts won't be an issue (but don't forget that my opinions may be influenced by my training since I work at a dealership).
I am in the sales department, so as far as technical 'stuff', I learn engine basics from classes and online resources and pick up more from our technicians. Like all car agencies, a bare minimum of knowledge of required, but some of us require ourselves to know more...or everything we can get our hand on. Its the difference between professional and not.
DaimlerChrysler hopes to capitalize on the growing interest in biodiesel, along with a trend toward renewed consumer interest in diesel passenger vehicles, with its introduction of the Jeep® Liberty Common Rail Diesel (CRD) later this month. Each 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD leaving the factory will be powered by B5 – a five percent blend of biodiesel. More than 40,000 consumers have already expressed interest in Jeep Liberty's “clean running diesel.”
There are a few pioneers over here who claim we can mix up to 30% pure vegetable oil in diesel fuel for the common rail diesels. I'm not there yet since viscosity is an issue during winter, but it's promising for those who read the oil depletion discussion forums. We may have to start mixing soon.
"Just doing some math here on the "B" package gas - wheels= 310, ABS=600, Heater=40, Selec-Trac (which you can't get until the "C" package really)=395. This is 1345. CRD=$675....not bad!!"
Yes $675 doesn't sound bad. But are comparing apples to oranges in the frame of mind that this isn't a new car model, just a new engine. A Gasoline Liberty currently has $2700~ in rebates and cash back. The new CRD is not offering any rebates (for now). So that $675 is really a about a $3400 premium over any other brand new gas Liberty sold.
I think we should ask the military. They must be at least 25 years ahead of us concerning polycombustion engines. I've seen them built for tanks. Do you remember the Chrysler turbine-car prototype in the mid 60's? If I remember correctly, it could already burn vegetable oil.
You're almost correct. Currently, there are 3 rebates on Liberty's - $1000 consumer rebate, $1000 Chrysler Financial, and $500 Holiday Bonus. Not that there are any diesels on the ground yet, but the rebate rules don't exclude the CRD - but that may change when the hit the dealers. Our rebate charts are clear - Neon, for instance, reads Neon (excl SRT-4).
What type and frequency of maintenance is there for the Jeep Liberty Diesel? Engine oil changes and intervals? Diesel fuel filter water draining and replacement of filters? Does anybody know why the recommended front and rear differential change intervals is 12,000 miles? Seems too expensive, time consuming, and not needed
Price was just under $33,000 inluding delivery w/o rebates which will be calculated upon delivery in 6-8 weeks. Engine is $1240 with G pkg. also includes Adventure '05 pkg. for $1453 and $600 of other dealer installed accessories with labor for install of dealer add-ons. Added ABS, Tra-Lok, Smokers Group, Trailer Tow Pkg, Skid Plate Group, Heated Seats, Tire Pressure Monitoring, and Sirius Radio. This is the Limited Edition CRD.....with luck it will be one of the first to arrive in Texas.
Well Kappy44, I'm glad too see they told you an approximate arrival date. I ordered mine on Monday and the dealer told me they had no idea when it would be in. I'm a little worried now that I read the MotorWeek website and they said Jeep is only making 5,000 this 05 model year. I hope I was in the 5,000. Especially with 40,000 people expressing interest.
I'm confident if you ordered as I did you will get the vehicle....interest is one thing, putting money down is another....there's a lot of PR nonsense here...as to 5000 units, Motorweek is quoting a 3 yr old press release...Daimler Chrysler CEO subsequently stated he does not enivision limiting the run at 5000....these folks are in the business of selling vehicles....we're not talking about an Aston Martin here....no dealer wants to take my deposit and have to refund me months later....I played that game on a 2004 Yukon I tried to order when and the dealer had to wait for weeks to meet his allotment and wound up discounting a Denali on the lot to satisfy me.
Critter1: Don't hold your breath for anything, but a basic model under 30k in what your looking for with a diesel in USA....the hope is other manufacturers will offer more diesels since Jeep broke the ice, but new regs on low sulphur in 2007 are the catch....GM is hinting at a smaller duramax for the Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban in 2007 or beyond....Daimler/Chrysler originally stated the Liberty Diesel would be available in late 2003 and its just now being done!!!
I think you guys are in for a pleasant experience. I would recommend you to go off-road as soon as possible and let the engine run in the 1000-1500 rpm range without pushing it. That's where the fun starts compared to the gassers. You don't need the 'LO' mode to feel the power. The counterpart to this is when driving on snow/ice: you may need a few days to get used to it. I've driven mine 35,000 Kilometers so far, and it feels like new.
I am driving a new Jetta Wagon TDI and think it great. I love the idea of a diesel in pretty much anything, and I can afford a diesel Liberty long before a Taureg, but when do we get a diesel Wrangler Unlimited?
I've not heard anything. FWIW, they don't even offer a diesel wrangler ANYWHERE! You can get diesel grands, libertys (cherokees) and such but no wrangler. I always thought that was odd.
I agree, a nice little diesel Wrangler for the back country would be ideal. I remember owning a CJ-2A with a 283 Chevy V8. It was fun but the HP got me stuck as much as anything. Low end torque in a diesel would be a nice package.
Standard mileage for my truck is 10/10.3 liters/100Km during the summer. Late fall with +/- 5 degrees Celcius, it was taking 11/11.5. Now with -10 Celcius and 30 cm of fresh snow I'm getting 12.5 liters/100 km at 4,500 feet altitude. It's now taking 10 seconds to heat the glow plugs without the help of any block or battery heater. At -10C, it takes about 5 minutes of idling to get the transmission fluid ready. With the diesel you cannot just start and go; it needs a bit of warming-up when the truck stays out in the cold for a few days without running.
Why would anyone want a diesel? I have a two of them. They are not a problem (other than being dirty to fuel up) But, (1) with diesel at 20 cents more than gas (in my area of the country, (2) The diesel costing more than a gas engine nad the repairs being at lease 100% more than a gas engine, why would anyone want a diesel?
It used to be that the milage was much better and the diesel went 300,000 miles. However, the milage is not that much better now and a good gas engine will go 250,000. In addition to that very, very few people keep a car (wtih or with a diesel) over 200,000 miles.
Why a diesel now? I would really like your input. (sell me on the diesel) Thanks, and Merry Christmas.
I think you need to be a bit 'special' to buy a diesel, in the sense that you want something reliable that can run all day in heavy traffic or in off-road conditions without overheating and forget about spark plugs. The diesel engine will start even if a glow plug fails, and then run normally. The air conditionning compressor doesn't affect mileage on the CRD, so you can leave it on all the time. The last thing that comes to my mind is the 'smooth' driving conditions where you seldom go beyond 2,500 rpm except to overtake someone. Engine braking is also very efficient going downhill with the automatic tranny, as long as you use it correctly. I have several american colleagues over here who are discovering the small diesel cars and who are looking on how to smuggle them in the US when they go back home.
Okay, I am impressed. The Liberty CRD's are being released with a $1500 cash back incentive between Jan 05 and Feb 28, 05. That is great news! This makes the cost difference with the gasoline version much more comparable. Kudos to Jeep.
I wonder what the dealers will mark up the first ones delivered. If there's a long list of anxious buyers you could still get skinned both in price and trade in. Beware!!
Comments
Nevertheless, even if oil gets to $100 per barrel, the Liberty CRD will still be ok compared to others. Today I'm paying diesel fuel 1.05 Euro per liter (~5USD per USGal).
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewModels/0,,1369-1374_1599434- ,00.html
I must say 1.05 Euro per liter is a bit steep. In South africa we pay half that and we complain bitterly...
My quick understanding of the CRD.
1. Comes with a 5 speed auto and a 2.8L turbo diesel made in Italy.
2. I always estimate that my diesels get about 25% better fuel econ than comparable engines with similiar power in the same vehicle. Diesel has 10% more BTU's per gallon, and the diesel cycle plus added compression ratio add in the other 15%.
Depending on conditions, my diesels do someplace between 10% and 40% better in any particular load/driving cycle instance.
3. Jeep says the City/Hwy average for the V-6 is 19.5mpg (17/22). For the CRD it's 24.5mpg (22/27). Difference is about a 25% improvement with the diesel.
4. If you drive both vehicles 100,000 miles and buy fuel that costs $2.50 a gallon (Diesel always cheaper than unleaded in summer, always reversed in winter, since home heating oil is about the same stuff as diesel fuel) and get the average fuel economy stated above, then you will spend $12,800 with the gasser and about $10,200 with the Diesel. So, a diesel will save you $2600 in fuel costs....
5. My experiences with diesels are:
a. Make more HP at low RPM's, good for towing and round town driving.
b. They are less reliable (in shop more, thus the auto companies have to charge more to cover warranty expenses).
c. Use alot more expensive oil and filter changes.
d. They stink, but the ultra Low Sulfer diesel fuel coming (<15ppm sulfer, right now <500ppm) in 2006 should be waaaaayyyyy better.
So, thinking DC/Jeep shouldn't charge more than about $2600 premium for the CRD.
What do yawl think?
1. No time value of money adjustments
2. Assumed fuel will average $2.50 per gall for both gas and diesel, and no offset.
3. Arbitrarily selected 100,000 mile break-even point.
4. Didn't factor in depreciation differences between the two vehicles
5. Didn't factor in the PITA of finding diesel pumps.
My experiences are that most diesels (except maybe the cummins in the big Dodge and the mercedes auto engines) don't outlast their gas counterparts that much when driven similiarly, and cared for equally...
-Whatever the cost of fuel, the difference in mileage (~20%) will remain.
-This italian diesel engine uses MB technology.
-The break even point for most users only concerns the second hand market.
-Many small diesels found on the international second hand market have more than 150,000 miles and still give good service.
-Using modern synthetic oil, oil changes are less frequent (20,000 miles).
-Body work costs more than engine repair/exchange.
To my understanding, it's the onboard computer that remains unknow as of reliability. I would be glad to get rid of this 'Sword of Damocles', or at least be well documented in case it fails. With the older diesel engines, it was fairly simple to drive back home after an incident had occured. This worries me especially when going off-road. It's not trivial here to get a 4x4 tow truck heavier than the Liberty...
Liberty CRD Sport 4x4 is $25,125, including $610 destination. The
base MSRP for the Jeep Liberty CRD Limited 4x4 is $27,355, including
$610 destination. The Jeep Liberty CRD will begin arriving in
dealerships later this year.'
Pricing was released Nov 05 at an Auto Show in New England. The premium in price over the gas 3.7L V6 engine not only includes the CRD but also includes extra insulation for noise and liquid filled engine mounts for the vibration. At one time I thought DC was discussing adding extra options with the diesel package like; larger tires, Select Trac, etc. I guess we'll have to wait to see when one is able to configure it on the Jeep website.
Sport "B" Package will be $2020 more and will include the CRD, 16" Aluminum Wheels, ABS, Selec-Trac, and an Engine Block Heater
Sport "C" Package will be $1710 more and will include the CRD, ABS, Selec-Trac, and an Engine Block Heater
Limited "F" Package will be $1635 more and will include same as "C" package
Limited "G" Package will be $1240 and will include the CRD, ABS, and an Engine Block Heater
Just doing some math here on the "B" package gas - wheels= 310, ABS=600, Heater=40, Selec-Trac (which you can't get until the "C" package really)=395. This is 1345. CRD=$675....not bad!!
Jack, I can probably answer your question...my email is in my profile.
and 4 wheel down the beach. The 295 lbs of torque
would be more then enough for my use. If I buy a
boat, then it would work for that too! Can't wait to see what develops. If they make one I will
dump my Nissan and comeback to a US Mfger.
Feedback Welcome
Remember how they blew the PT Cruiser's price way
over the $14000 promised? They shot themselves in the foot big time on that one. A major aftermarket goldmine only 2nd to the Beetle.
I'm also concerned about the service and parts availability on an Italian diesel. I owned 2
Italian cars . . . .won't be a 3rd. Waited 6 months for the wrong part from a major dealer.
Along with that, the prices on parts were outrageous.
I'm a diesel nut, wanting something like the diesel Nissan crewcab to be imported again. I've seen them in Africa, quite nice. But the EPA concerns aren't worth it to them yet.
The Liberty is interesting, but no 1st year model for me.
http://www.boschusa.com/AutoOrigEquip/Diesel/CommonRailSystem/
It could be reassuring to talk to your Bosch automotive-service people and ask them if they will carry the parts. Many people over here go directly to them. If not, I can testify outrageous pricing from DC dealers, and the enormous risk to take your truck to a foreign country where there is no such service.
Too bad more car sales people don't spend time on Edmund's. They would learn a lot about the vehicles they sell.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/pressreleases/pas/20041117_Jee- p_Liberty_Ride_Drive.pdf
Yes $675 doesn't sound bad. But are comparing apples to oranges in the frame of mind that this isn't a new car model, just a new engine. A Gasoline Liberty currently has $2700~ in rebates and cash back. The new CRD is not offering any rebates (for now). So that $675 is really a about a $3400 premium over any other brand new gas Liberty sold.
Do you remember the Chrysler turbine-car prototype in the mid 60's? If I remember correctly, it could already burn vegetable oil.
Since I'm waiting for application in small/med. p/u I think I'll wait.
diesel SUVs crossover to small/med. size P/U trucks. Goodluck with the Liberty keep us posted on how it works out.
thanks
It used to be that the milage was much better and the diesel went 300,000 miles. However, the milage is not that much better now and a good gas engine will go 250,000. In addition to that very, very few people keep a car (wtih or with a diesel) over 200,000 miles.
Why a diesel now? I would really like your input. (sell me on the diesel) Thanks, and Merry Christmas.
tidester, host
Now, If only I can see one at the dealership...