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Jeep Liberty Diesel

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Comments

  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I researched further and Edmunds has the wrong weight for the Jeep.

    I have found weights from 4795 to 4985 for the Grand Cherokee. These values are from foreign as well as domestic publishers.

    Rather interesting that the Jeep website gives the weight you have. The Liberty is around 3650 lbs. In the magazines, the Liberty CRD is around 4300 lbs.
  • bvcrdbvcrd Member Posts: 196
    I figure my parts will just continue to come from DCX. They are going to be making them for the thousands overseas. Just a little less postage. By the way, the sky ISN'T falling.
  • bvcrdbvcrd Member Posts: 196
    Surely you jest. My CRD doesn't weigh 650# more than 3.7. A little yes, but not that much. I would guess around 200#
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Not jesting.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Note that we have different curb and gross weights for the Grand Cherokee depending on the model - the 4WD flavor is heavier.

    3994 seems to be the number for most of the 4WD models at Jeep.com and we must get our info from the manufacturer, because we seem to match. Options will change that info too.

    Steve, Host
  • whitgallmanwhitgallman Member Posts: 121
    Would Detriot Diesel be an avenue for VM Motori engine parts? If VM Motori is a sub of Detroit Diesel, there are probably some VM engines with Detroit nameplates on them in US middle size trucks. (be worth asking)
    Similary, I've been having the Cummins engine in my Dodge pickup serviced at Cummins shop.
  • zachinmizachinmi Member Posts: 228
    3650lbs is probably a 2wd Liberty with the gas 4cyl, a stick shift, and no options. I've seen 4100lbs quoted for the Liberty 4wd with the 3.7L v6, and about 4300lbs quoted for our CRD models. For some reason manufacturers seem to like quoting the lightest possible weight of their vehicles, not the typically equipped weight. The diesel alone adds some weight with its cast iron block, plus the full-time 4wd which includes a center differential, plus the super heavy duty automatic transmission, some pounds for the turbo and intercooler, etc.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I am running to the county dump to get rid of a bunch of trash. I will try to get my CRD weighed there after I unload it. Their scales are accurate to about 20 pounds.

    The 3.7 L V-6 has a cast iron block as does the four cylinder last put in in 2005.
  • bvcrdbvcrd Member Posts: 196
    That's more to my thinking. Some didn't take into account the squirrel and the belt on the lesser powered models.
  • zachinmizachinmi Member Posts: 228
    Looking at the Jeep website, 3655lbs is curb weight for a 4x2 with a stick shift and the V6 (I hadn't realized the gas I4 was gone, but you are correct).

    If you change the settings at the top of the page to 4x4, it shows their curb weights, with a basic of 3851lbs for the 4x4 with stick shift, but that leaps to 4033lbs for the automatic transmission (gas V6 in both cases). I'm wondering if the auto weighs an additional 180lbs all by itself, or if it comes with other features that push up the weight. I suspect that any upgrades (transfer case, wheels, stereo) push it to the 4100lbs curb weight that I've seen quoted elsewhere. I'll be curious to hear what your CRD weighs on the scales.
  • crdblazrcrdblazr Member Posts: 12
    Lightnin3,

    Thanks for the tips! I'm already doing some of that: Shell premium diesel, cetane booster, tire pressure 38 psi, reasonable speeds. But still only 19-20 mpg.

    At 3.2K miles, maybe it will be time soon to change oil and filter. Since it got hot here in Texas I have been running the A/C more, so could be part of the problem.

    Thanks,
    CRDblazr
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    And in this corner weighing in at 4295 pounds we have....
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Give it time. The engine is still green. Mileage on my CRD did not really start improving until after 6K miles.
  • vtdogvtdog Member Posts: 163
    Lightnin:
    Sorry, way too complicated and bothersome to be useful. If I had to baby my CRD that way, I would get rid of it yesterday. The chances of me driving slow, changing the oil every time it rains, or making sure the tires are so hard that my private parts clank with each bump is non- existent.

    My solution to the mpg issue is simply to wait until you have over 20,000 miles on the vehicle. My mileage has gone up as the diesel has gotten "looser" (probably tranny too). I get 25+/- mpg @ 75mph with about 26k miles. If I do alot of "in town" driving my average falls to about 23 (not that there is a lot of city driving around here anyway). I use the "evil" 0w-40 oil the dealer puts in and I don't even look at the air filter till 12 miles has gone by.

    Remember, its just a car-drive it, or sell it, but don't whine about it.
  • bvcrdbvcrd Member Posts: 196
    I run that much air in my tires, and I find the ride not too hard. I have gotten 25 mpg when it was new. Now have 6500 on it. I'd check your air filter. I recently changed mine at 6000 miles and it was filthy. With proper use. 30+ mpg is obtainable as I have proven.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Just got my crd back today from the dealer. Had a check engine light (Glow plugs 1 & 3 codes). They installed new glow plugs and when I went to pick it up the engine light was on again. I looked at the wiring myself and see that the plugs are on the driver's side of the engine. There is a harness coming back to a four wire connector. Then the wires go into a larger harness which end at a relay just behind the battery. The circuit looks simple enough but the dealer was complaining about tech support from Jeep. I think I need to buy my own service manuals if the right ones exist. Does anyone know if correct service manuals exist for this puppy? I'd like to know what the resistance values for this glow plug circuit are. And what value the coil of the glow plug should be. Anyone have the values please post them. Knowing this information will save all of us a lot of money.
  • whitgallmanwhitgallman Member Posts: 121
    from previous posts, the CD version offered by the guy on E-bay for $60? is valid; an Adobe of real DC book. Caribou1 can tell you. He has it on his palm pilot.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    I haven't found the resistance value for the glow plugs on the info I have. Several forums mention 0.6 to 0.8 Ohms for the glow plugs, and the nominal voltage may not be 11Volts, but 7Volts like on the "Rapiterm" plugs from Bosch (rated for 30,000 coldstarts). So we should not connect them directly to the battery. It seems the plugs draw 15 Amps each when new, but they may not always glow the same way after some time, so the only real-life test is on a cold start.
    Here is the link to the newer glow plugs:
    http://www.boschautoparts.co.uk/pcGlow13.asp?c=2&d=1
  • stbstb Member Posts: 31
    I too have the glow plug problem, my dealer is waiting for parts to finish the job. It seems this problem is occurring on many CRD's. Mine started at 12,700 miles.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I do not believe that the oil (synthetic) is the issue here. I have used synthetic in my CRD since it came from the factory and I have seen my fuel economy climb as the miles have accumulated.

    Look elsewhere. You might need to consider switching fuel and/or adding a cetane improver and or injector cleaner. Look at the air filter. I changed the original at 7500 miles as it was totally filthy. Are the brakes binding? What MY is your CRD?
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Do you know the coil and contactor circuit resistance of the glow plug relay. If the plugs operate at 7 volts I'm thinking there is a voltage limiting resistor integrated on the contactor circuit of the glow plug relay. If so that relay may be defective allowing too much voltage to get to the plugs burning them out. Lets use say 12.7 volts divided by 0.6 ohms which will give us 21.16 amps. So we have 100 watt plugs glowing at 265 watts. Not Good!!! That would burn out the glow plugs very quickly. Thank you very much for the information.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    I just looked at the link. They are calling the glow plug relay an electronic glow time control unit. It is mounted just behind the battery on my CRD. So they are Rapiterm glow plugs. Reading the link also states the nom and max voltages to the plugs are 7 vdc and 8.6 vdc. So a simple test would be measuring the voltage going to the plugs to verify the glow time control unit is operating correctly. Thank you again!!
  • stbstb Member Posts: 31
    I have a 2005.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    If you have an early build like February or March, some of the CRD's had an issue with binding brakes. I believe there is a TSB about this. Also, make sure all of the clamps from the turbocharger to the aftercooler, from the aftercooler to the intake manifold are snug. Are you having issues with the trans and it's shift points?
  • stbstb Member Posts: 31
    I had a tranny harness burn on the exhuast which stopped the trans from going into high gear. I was on my way to the dealer for the engine light when it happened. They replaced the harness and hopefully secured it properly!!!
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    zachinmi: The owner of the Dodge/Jeep/Chrysler dealership, LLoyd Belt Sr. told me that the new Ram Diesels were going to be at least $4,000. more due to the Emissions requirements. His concern was how much more would the public pay before they would choose a used one over a new Cummins. He seemed rather concerned about the fact that Dodge, and Jeep were offering two vehicles so close to being the same. He said for a small dealership having one of every model was almost impossible. He also told me no more "test market CRD's for Jeep. So he is in the Know. That is also the reason some dealers have stocked up on the 2006 Ram diesels now.
    I think if you keep your Ram up you might just have a truck that won't depreciate much.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    chrisducati: No I think your are very mistaken about the parts situation. Now if I had a Toyota or a Hyundai as you do then I might be prown to be concerned. But tell me if you don't own a CRD Jeep whay are you so concerned? I bet my CRD is still running when your Hyundai is parked in some junk yard.
    I think if I want to complain about my CRD then I have the right as I have one.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    alljeep: I am sorry to be the one to brake the real news to you, but there were 8,333 CRD's made in 2005. And sadly only 2,667 in 2006. This is according to the report DCX made when saying there would be no CRD's for 2007, but there would be a diesel in the GC for 2007.
    I am not sure where you got your numbers, but they are very wrong. You can call DCX at 1-800-992-1997 and ask for yourself. They do have the 2005 numbers, and your dealer can give you the final total for CRD's which stopped in early May.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    whitgallman: I called Detroit Diesel, and asked them about our CRD diesel, and there was no one who even knew they were remotely related. So that's a no where to go deal. I doubt parts will be a problem. I would be more concerned about tec's who know what they are doing in 3 years, as there are no more schools for the VM Motori CRD offered by DCX. This is gona be .....fun?

    Farout
  • derbs24derbs24 Member Posts: 17
    We are familiar with the motor and realize it's a division of DDC. We even have techs who are trained on the VMs, although not in the Liberty. I am pretty sure I will be able to get parts if I dig hard enough and make enough phone calls, but not sure about the general public. I purchased a 05 CRD for my work car(how fitting) and it has been great!!! Last tank was 27.26mpg and I run around to customers all day. Unfortunately my check engine light recently came on(20k miles) and I am having a hard time picking a dealer to work on it. The code is the P0401 minimal EGR airflow detected. Probably will end up fixing it myself to be safe, unless someone knows a dealer with experience in Milwaukee? I don't want to be someones guinea pig... ;)
    Jason Derby
    Product Support Mgr
    Inland Detroit Diesel, Inc.
  • derbs24derbs24 Member Posts: 17
    I would suggest anyone with the MBE900 in a sprinter bring it to your local Detroit Diesel Distributor. It is all they do(Detroit and Mercedes engines).
    Good Luck
    Jason
  • zachinmizachinmi Member Posts: 228
    Thanks Farout. I hope your dealer is wrong, but obviously they should be a pretty good source. I'm anticipating good resale on the Ram and half debating whether to swap my CRD for another Ram/Cummins before the 2007 changes.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    I believe there is a simple approach to a lower operating voltage for the glow plugs. When starting the engine in cold weather, the starter motor brings the battery voltage to less than 10 Volts. It's always been like that.
    Since this engine doesn't have a heavy flywheel to help producing heat created by compression + angular speed, it needs a longer glow time to make shure ignition continues after the initial impulse and when the starter motor is turned off. I remember reading in the manual that our plugs keep glowing at least two seconds after the engine has started.
    Another converging info from the ECU documentation is that the starting of the engine is controlled by the ECU alone, and gives hand to the driver only when a soft running condition is obtained. This starting condition measures the acceleration of the engine after each injection pulse and adapts to individual cylinder wear. This is sophisticated but needed to replace the inertia of a flywheel.
    The nasty thing is that glow plugs can be turned on without producing their nominal temperature. This was often the case on older models after ~20,000 miles. There is probably a set of OBD codes pointing to a 'non successful' cold start.
  • alljeepalljeep Member Posts: 35
    Per AutoWeek magazine:

    "10,313 diesel Liberty's sold in its first full year in production."

    Maybe it's a wordsmith article. It does not state how many, if any, 2005 models were produced in late 2004. It does not state that this number is only for 2005 models, so probably includes 2006 models made in late 2005.

    Still, there has been more than 700 made this calendar year, no?

    I'm trying not to let the 11,000 total production number sink into my head...
  • unclebubbaunclebubba Member Posts: 80
    Hey farout,
    I believe parts will not be a problem either. Hopefully techs won't be. What I disccerned from the jeep website was the implication that CRD's would in fact be produced in the libby and wrangler here in the USA, but only for export!! So parts should be available for quite some time. Even though my 05 Libby has 100K warranty on drive train, I bought the extended for everything else!! It could be real cheap insurance or a waste of money. Either way, I have peace of mind. Also know a lawyer who was lead attorney in a $75 million class action settlement with Honda about 10 years ago, so if DC does'nt take care
    of issues, he has a good chance of "encouraging" compliance. :D

    CHEERS!!
  • unclebubbaunclebubba Member Posts: 80
    Hey, talk to the service manager at whatever dealer, explain your qual's and get DC to give you a EGR under warranty and change it yourself. You have more experience under your belt than a whole service department at a DC dealer. Goodluck.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    With the fuel management operation you described I agree most manufacturers are doing somewhat the same. But the glow plug time control unit was putting out 11.8 volts to the plugs when I checked it with my two channel scope. Sometimes I'm getting 7.3 vdc to 8.8 vdc but every fourth or fifth time it jumps over 11 volts. The current doesn't go above 12.5 amps to the good plugs. But the two bad plugs are practically open. The controller is not working right.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    On the 2005 diesel "Powertrain manual" only the egr 'solenoid' codes are listed:

    P0402-EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT POSITIVE DEVIATION
    AIR FILTER
    AIR RESTRICTION
    CHECKING FOR AIR LEAKS
    EGR VALVE
    INTERMITTENT CONDITION

    P0403-EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT EXCESSIVE CURRENT
    INTERMITTENT CONDITION
    EGR SOLENOID
    EGR SOLENOID CONTROL SHORTED TO VOLTAGE
    ENGINE CONTROL MODULE - INTERNAL SHORT TO VOLTAGE

    P0403-EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT NEGATIVE DEVIATION
    P0403-EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT OPEN CIRCUIT
    P0489-EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT SHORT TO GROUND
    INTERMITTENT CONDITION
    ASD RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT OPEN
    EGR SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT SHORTED TO GROUND
    EGR SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT OPEN
    EGR SOLENOID
    ENGINE CONTROL MODULE

    Don't ask me why P0403 is there 3 times :confuse:
    If the word airflow is mentionned in your case, it should be the flap not closing completely or the end-switch out of position.
    I checked on another site and it says exhaust flow instead of airflow. In this case the lambda sensor detects too much oxygen :shades:
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    This fuel management is now common to those who install Bosch ECUs. It seems to me the difference between automobile manufacturers is just adapting this thing to their chosen elements (engine to gearbox to accessories, etc...)
    Since you measured your voltages with a scope (very high impedance), you may have detected a false contact or high contact resistance on your plugs that can only pull more current after the surge has happened and re-melted some kind of contact. You must have a load on the controller to let it regulate the voltage.
    Now if the controller went wrong and sent the full voltage to your plugs, this could explain the two 'open' circuits.
    What you could do to put the controller to a test is to connect 4 individual headlamps to the unit and see if they give the same illumination.
    I would also check the engine grounding cable/strap. If there is an intermittent contact (loose connection) this can create problems to the electronic modules by swinging the voltage up and down ;)
  • stbstb Member Posts: 31
    2005 CRD warranty issue resolved:

    Thank you for your recent email to DaimlerChrysler Customer Assistance Center in regards to your vehicle warranty.

    You do not have a 7/100 Limited Diesel Warranty. You have a 7/70 Powertrain warranty. Your Towing Assistance is only covered during the basic 3/36-warranty period. The Engine, Transmission, and Driveline are covered by the 7/70 Powertrain Warranty. If you have any other questions please feel free to reply back.

    Thank you again for your email.

    Sincerely,
    Justin
    Senior Staff Representative
    DaimlerChrysler Customer Assistance Center
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    alljeep:Go to www.jeepnewsnow.com/modules/news/ The news is directly from DCX, that the total CRD production was 11,000. It makes no difference what the numbers are, we have been a "test market" for DCX at our own expense! There is only one thing left to say, That sucks big time!

    Farout
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    BVCRD...Right on !! 2 stars for another one who gets 30mpg..
    You must be doing something right.

    Thanks for the heads up Winter2 ..I agree with your input always.You seem to be a veteran at owning a diesel.
    Yes definitely check the air filter.

    I just did mine and she has about 30K miles on her.Not bad for a 1 year old ,but the filter was dirty..dirty...Then I got a brain wave and bought a K&N filter.
    I seriously wanted to try it ,to see if it would make a difference.I have been getting
    28-30 mpg 450-500 miles/tank ,more consistly now,on the hiway.

    CRDblzr..If you do an oil change ,I believe you'll notice "some" improvement in the performance,but patience is needed for the break in period.Diesel engine are very tight until broken in.
    But Like Winter2 noted,check the air filter to see if it is Ok..
    Also start using an upper cylinder diesel fuel additive,or a cetane improver that has injector cleaners in it.

    I use Lucas formula,and have seen better results,plus it's piece of mind to know that your injectors are getting cleaned.
    I have heard that Texas diesel fuel is very dirty and poor cetane levels have yielded poor mileage.
    I would keep on buying the "premium" ,but try experimenting with other brands like B.P.,Citgo,Sunoco ,Esso,
    you may find a difference.Maybe a truck stop,Flying "J" ?
    is near you..
    Hopefully ULSD will be out soon,in your case.
    We are patiently waiting as well,
    but I have heard that Bio-Willy is gaining ground in the Bio- Diesel dept.
    Has anyone tried this fuel yet??
    Is it worth buying??

    Speak Soon..
    Lightnin3..
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have tried various blends of biodiesel from B5 to B20. I have noticed the following when using biodiesel

    1. Smoother idle.
    2. Quieter, less knocking and nailing.
    3. Unchanged FE
    4. Acceleration same, but a little less smoke. Hardly have any of that to begin with.
    5. A slightly lighter wallet versus purchasing straight #2.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    Lightnin3: I am glad your getting good service from the CRD. You will have to forgive my crazy way of doing math, but understand I am California High School graduate, so I may be wrong. However if your getting 440 to 500 miles to a tank, and say you are only putting in 18 gallons at 450 miles that's 25 miles to a gallon or if that's 500 miles to 18 gallons that's 27.7 mpg. Now if you were talking about a 20 gallon tank that's even worse.
    I got 480 miles on my last tank, but it was just a little above 24.4 mpg. So my opinion is you must have used less than a tank to go 450 to 500 miles, I hope.
    So far here there is neither ULSD or premium diesel near me. In fact the only Bio fuel is B-2 and the nearest station is 2 hours away. But diesel has gone from $2.639 to $2.899 in less than one week while gas only went up a dime. The E-85 is $2.239 which all of a sudden was there at the pump last week where to kerosine use to be.
    I am not picken at you Lightnin, and I hope you will see it is sorta funny the way you presented the facts. Hang in and maybe there will be a night math school near by you.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    Winter2: I have read others say that they have noticed smoke too. I have only seen smoke two or three times when starting when it was 10 F. Never when I punch it or any other time. Frankly I doubt I will ever use any Bio fuel above B-5. The papers I got with the letter from V M Motori give me the impression that if they can prove there is damage to certian parts and there has been Bio fuel above B-5 used they won't stand behind the part. And now that the testing is over on us "test market" CRD buyers I am just not sure I want to take any risk. This Italian chunk of iron has to last at least until it's paid for.
    Whats your thoughts?

    Farout
  • zachinmizachinmi Member Posts: 228
    "I have tried various blends of biodiesel from B5 to B20. I have noticed the following when using biodiesel
    1. Smoother idle.
    2. Quieter, less knocking and nailing.
    3. Unchanged FE
    4. Acceleration same, but a little less smoke. Hardly have any of that to begin with.
    5. A slightly lighter wallet versus purchasing straight #2. "

    I use B20 whenever possible and I have experienced #1-4. The engine is a lot happier and quieter on B20. Fuel economy doesn't seem to change up or down and power is about the same. However, with petrodiesel being $2.89-2.99 locally, B20 is generally the same price or in same cases even 5 cents less than pure dinodiesel, around here in lower Michigan. I am very happy with B20. Added bonuses are that it has much better lubricity and contains 20% less sulfur (no sulfur in the bio portion). Smoke is nonexistent on B20 and the smell of exhaust is less unpleasant.

    We do not have "Bio-Willie" around here but my understanding is that it is just B20 soy biodiesel, so it should be identical to what I'm using.

    Some have had problems with biodiesel but I suspect these are all due to improperly made biodiesel. Quality still varies, though locally I have had no problems. Poorly made biodiesel may contain water, glycerin and/or methanol, all of which are very bad for the fuel system. Properly made biodiesel has negligible amounts of glycerin and methanol, and low, tolerable amounts of water (typically a bit more than petrodiesel). Testing of pure, quality B20 by the various engine manufacturers have shown that if the fuel is made right there is no problem.

    All my biodiesel has been purchased from stations owned by local fuel distributors in farming areas. These people are probably very conscientious about fuel quality, especially since they mostly sell to repeat customers and would be out of business if those customers stopped using them. One of the stations I use the most has very prominent water filters on the base of the pump where the hose comes out - this probably contributes to my lack of problems with their B20. In other words, I would hesitate to buy B20 from a station that is mostly a convenience store with a little bit of fuel sales on the side.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    zachinmi: One issue is the Bio fuel only is good for a short period of time. How do you know if your Bio diesel is "fresh"? I would also add that consistency of Bio fuel above B-5 is a serious issue. As I asked Winter2 what about the makers of the many parts that are in contact with the fuel, that say do not use above B-5? In Missouri it is hard to find much above B-2. I just am not convinced Bio fuel above B-5 is a wise choice, I want to see stats on all the claims made. Are there many over the road truckers jumping on board with Bio fuel? I honestly do not know. What do you think?

    Farout
  • derbs24derbs24 Member Posts: 17
    I'm with ya on that one, just don't have that warm fuzzy about any Jeep dealers yet. I did do that when the turbo blew on my Powerstroke Ford. They were real cool about it, I'm sure they made the warranty paperwork up like they did it so they made out very well. The little VM is way different than the Powerstroke though, I could get into my Ford with both feet! The VM looks more like working on a small clock...very tight quarters.
    Jason
  • derbs24derbs24 Member Posts: 17
    Thanks for the info, I printed your page for my toolbox. I was guessing that "minimal egr flow detected" meant that the flap was shut and not allowing hot egr to travel back into the intake stream. This seemed to justify my recent 1-2mpg jump after the light came on. I went from 25ish to 27ish on 2 tanks in a row. I thought this was due to the now much cooler intake charge. I hope to dig into this over the weekend and do some exploring. Let me know if you find anything else.
    Thanks again,
    Jason :D
  • derbs24derbs24 Member Posts: 17
    Hey!!! Look at this...this post matches what one of our VM guys told me this morning...
    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233262

    Jason
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