Subaru Crew: Suggestions for Subaru

locke2c · April 2004

so Dennis, you don't think they will have problems selling the WRX-- especially the WRX wagon-- when the Forester XT has an engine significantly better?

~c

volkov · April 2004

WRX sedan will be more than safe without the 2.5T. Plenty of those buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a soccer mom station wagon. THEIR impression, not mine. WRX wagon is harder to call. My personal taste is that I don't like the Forester look. As a kid I always wanted the roadster over the muscle car and craved handling over power. Those very subjective biases pushed me to the Rex wagon over the Forester XT. No regrets.
Yes I'd like better low end grunt, but I happily swapped that for the different handling feel. With the few thousand left over, the Rex buyer can put in a new exhaust system and reflash and be much quicker than the FXT. The WRX will still find a market with the person who will mod and tweak. Just not sure how big a percentage of current WRX buyers they represent.

Nicholas

bluesubie · April 2004

Yes, some folks like volkov think the Forester looks dorky. Others hate wagons altogether and think they're all SMV's. :-)

Engines aside, the WRX is about handling and sleeker looks and the XT is about utility and nicer amenities. Myself and others are addressing the handling issue, but I think we are in the minority for Forester owners.

IMHO, there are only a few (in terms of overall sales) that choose the XT over the WRX wagon. I see more STi's now than XT's and I hope it stays that way.

-Dennis

locke2c · April 2004

quote: Rex buyer can put in a new exhaust system and reflash and be much quicker than the FXT

while faster in a straight line, that wouldn't help low-end at all.

~c

locke2c · April 2004

I bet your honest opinion isn't backed up by reality, Dennis. I'd put $5 on the Forester XT outselling the WRX wagon by a wide margin.

~c

ateixeira · April 2004

Well, Subaru gave the '05 Imprezas the updates, mostly a Forester-like interior, funny enough.

-juice

bluesubie · April 2004

Yeah, and people on nabisco are saying the interior is from the Saabaru. Of course Ed mentioned that the Saabaru's is from the Forester.

-Dennis

p.s. - Colin - Are you saying you think the XT outsells the XT now, or if the WRX gets the 2.5?

volkov · April 2004

while faster in a straight line, that wouldn't help low-end at all

By exhaust, I mean turbo-back, and those certainly do bump the low end. For example,Cobb's turbo-back and re-map:

http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/images/ae-stage2-dyno.jpg

That's essentially peak stock torque at 2500rpm. That's enough low end for me.

What's dyno'd Torque for FXT at 2500? Anyone?

I'd put $5 on the Forester XT outselling the WRX wagon by a wide margin

I'll somewhat agree here. I wouldn't be surprised if it did outsell the WRX wagon, but I'll bet that most FXT buyers will come from regular Forester sales or off-brand. There would have been a few Legacy cross-overs too, but that has been cut-off by the new Legacy offerings.
Just let me repeat my mantra. MOST Rex wagon and FXT buyers are different animals, so I don't think the bigger engine will pull many away.
OH and did I mention that I don't have a problem getting track time? BWAAAAAAH! But seriously, you'd have a truckload of bitter owners if droves of Rex types bought FXT's only to find out that SUV's are persona non grata at the local track.

Nicholas

bluesubie · April 2004

Why compare stock vs. modded anyway? Have a look around Cobb's site and compare stock WRX vs. stock XT dyno maps and report back. ;-)

I think we're getting carried away since this is "Suggestions for Subaru". :-)

-Dennis

volkov · April 2004

Sure, maybe we should carry the conversation over somewhere else, but I believe my point is pertinent here. Namely that keeping the 2.0 in the WRX isn't a bad thing given the target customer, AND that I doubt that FXT's will cannabilize Rex wagon sales. The rest is just nit-picking. The mod discussion was only alluding to the fact that WRX owners are much more likely to do things to their vehicles aftermarket than FXT owners and have tons of readily available and reputable products to play with for the 2.0T platform.

Nicholas

volkov · April 2004

My track comment. Referring to the fact that although more powerful and faster, many tracks don't the allow FXT due to an SUV ban. But by that point I was just being a smart [non-permissible content removed].
For the record Volkov does not race or drag. Volkov is not planning to put in a Stage "whatever" performance package. (I am very likely to do the up-pipe though.) Volkov knows that his Rex isn't an STi, and that it isn't even as fast as the FXT. Volkov is very happy with his Rex wagon and has no regrets:-)

Nicholas

lark6 · May 2004

Based on my test drive comparo between the BMW X3 and the Forester XT, I think Subaru needs to upgrade the brakes on the XT. Better pads, possibly even calipers, would be helpful. If you're going to put more power to the ground, you need to have more stopping power as well.

A good first step would be to make standard the internationally well-known four-pot front calipers. Many enthusiasts make this modification but are then forced into aftermarket wheels as their OEM wheels will not clear the bigger calipers. Subaru merely needs to change the OEM wheel offering to avoid this problem. In the rear the discs could be replaced by those from an H6 Outback or one of the higher performance STi variants available in other parts of the world.

Further something needs to be done to reduce the nosedive upon braking. The XT is improved over my first-gen Forester in this regard, but the dive is still noticeable. Some OEM equivalent of the anti-lift kits available in the aftermarket would be helpful here.

Ed

locke2c · May 2004

X3 has way more sensitive brake feel-- they come on like, right now, which gives the illusion of power. All modern BMWs are tuned this way and it's very obvious when driving one of them back-to-back with my '95 M3. I guarantee you that they do not stop faster than my M3 thought (weight alone helps!).

The X3 does have better OE tires than the Forester, though.

So anyway, my suggestion: push the brake pedal harder in the Forester if you want to stop faster. A corollary to this is to attempt to see which vehicle you can brake very gently in the easiest.

Say 20mph roll to a stop in mild traffic.

~c

lark6 · May 2004

I'd have to go back to try that, Col. Thing is if you step on the brakes too hard you can get the ABS to kick in, which isn't what you always want. Braking quickly in a short distance doesn't always equate to panic braking.

That suggestion still doesn't address the nosediving.

As far as OE rubber the X3's is better but, to be honest, I didn't feel that it communicated that it was reaching its limits as well as the Forester and its so-so Geolandars.

Should I find myself in a position to pick up an XT I would strongly consider having the dealer keep the Geos and install 5 tires of my choosing (most likely Dunlop SP 5000s), even if the dealer doesn't offer me a credit on the Geos.

Ed

bluesubie · May 2004

I think a gripper tire should help with the stopping. With more time behind the wheel, you get a better feel for threshold braking.

STi springs should address the nosediving. :-)

The XT definitely should have come with a performance/sport suspension package, at least as an option.

-Dennis

bluesubie · May 2004

You're not talking about Rallitek listing the WRX springs as XT, are you? None listed on prodrive-usa.

-Dennis

lark6 · May 2004

I was just going by what I read on another board (not nabsico). If I'm in error, I'll go back and delete the post - I don't want to spread misinformation.

Ed

bluesubie · May 2004

lark6 · May 2004

...based on that mail, Dennis. Apologies to anyone to may have taken it as gospel.

Again I don't want to spread misinformation. A lot of Impreza parts have been bolted onto Foresters and, despite their common underpinnings the Impreza parts, not having been designed with Forester use in mind, don't always deliver the desired results.

Ed

ateixeira · May 2004

Is Subaru still using a dual-stage brake booster? Maybe that's to blame. If so, they should re-evaluate that.

-juice

ateixeira · May 2004

I'm a big Forester fan and have always been impressed by how Subaru pioneers a lot of features in the small SUV class, like air bags that protect the head, availability of a LSD, standard ABS, etc.

But now the pressure is on, Toyota has VSC and SAC on the RAV4, and I just heard a rumor that Honda will make ABS, VSA, and SAC standard on the 2005 CR-V.

If so, Subaru will fall behind. Time to rush some of these features to market. Stability control and side air bag curtains are now expected at the $18k price level, not just on near-luxury vehicles. Time to step up!

The current model was new for 2003, so 2006 is the mid-cycle redesign. I fully expect Subaru to have both by then.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

We all know that DC is bring over the SMART urban car in the not too distant future. I'd love to see Subaru offer a competitor to that car. Here's what I propose:

Take the R1e as a starting point, but scrap the electric engine. Instead take the current 2.5 boxer engine and lop off two cylinders so that you have a 1.25 boxer twin. Then hook up the hybrid motor unit from the B9SC, and the AWD and voila! A micro Subie with all the Subie attributes: a boxer engine and AWD.

BMW has been making 1100cc boxer twins for their bikes for some time, so I'm sure Subaru could do the same with their boxer too. Also the advantage of lopping off cylinders, rather than an all new powerplant, is parts interchangeability with existing Subies.

Consider the following scenarios:

 A 1.25L Subie boxer would put out 82.5 HP (165 ÷ 2 = 82.5)

 A 1.25L Subie (from the F-XT) would put out 105 HP

 A 1.25L Subie (from the Legacy GT) would put out 125 HP

 A 1.25L Subie (from the STi) would put out 150 HP

Then add the hybrid motor and you would have a micro Super-car!

Bob

locke2c · May 2004

the BMW boxer twin needs to die. BAD.

tradition is its only reason for existence. it would make an awful car powerplant, even a hybrid. for your argument's sake 1.25L I'd go with the tried and true inline 3.

~c

rsholland · May 2004

the BMW boxer twin needs to die. BAD.

tradition is its only reason for existence. it would make an awful car powerplant, even a hybrid.

I would not want to use a 2-cylinder engine in a car by itself. However, with an electric motor assist, it just might work -- at least in a vehicle the size of the R1e. If nothing else, it sure would be full of Subie "character."

Bob

ateixeira · May 2004

The Smart sure did garner attention at NAIAS, remember the crowds?

Still, I think it's more out of curiosity. I'm not convinced Americans will buy microcars unless they are coupled to certain incentives (HOV access, tax breaks, free parking, etc).

So IMHO the laws must come first.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

Well obviously they're geared for urban driving. I think there's a market for them here. In terms of incentives: $1.87/gal or higher for regular coupled with super fuel mileage should do the trick...

Bob

ateixeira · May 2004

Funny thing is hybrids are going in the other direction - bigger and roomier.

HCH is successful, Prius has demand outstripping supply. But the Insight doesn't sell well, probably too small.

Soon we'll have a Camry, RX, Highlander, Accord, Altima, etc. I would not bet against the popularity of any of those.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

but those are really thought of as suburban vehicles rather than urban vehicles. I think cars like the SMART or R1e would be consdered "urban-chic" by young, 20-something, city dwellers.

Bob

ateixeira · May 2004

All 3 of them.

But seriously, a lot of my co-workers are just that, and most of them just take buses, bike, or even walk to work. Or the subway.

As for incentives - they now offer Metro Check here at work, so a lot of people signed up for that.

We'd have to see special parking spaces, or even free or subsidized parking, before there was enough demand, IMHO. And by the way, I'd consider a Smart Roadster, absolutely! But I'm a tiny minority.

There are other factors - any attempt to move upscale would have a bruised image if a tiny little city car came out. Note that Mercedes didn't put their name on the product.

Subaru should consider a fuel efficient model, but I'd look at a 2.0l Impreza TS, sedan and wagon. Especially now that there is an RS wagon. The TS could be the fuel miser.

Then look at hybrids, but my guess is putting that on an Outback or even the 7 seater would produce much higher demand than a city car would.

Segways have not caught on, for instance. They too need dedicated lanes (I'd propose Beach Drive) or some other incentives.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

with the slogan: "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" back in the early 1960s, and it caught on with the college crowd with the step-through Honda 50. That's what got Honda started in this country. I think the SMART and R1e (hybrid) could have the same effect. Look at the popularity of the new Mini with that audience.

Bob

p0926 · May 2004

FYI: My 15-yo nephews thought the Mini was the coolest car at this year's auto show. Actually I think the current term is "tight" :-)

-Frank P

ateixeira · May 2004

Bob - but Subaru is already established, they're not starting from the ground up.

The Legacy is still a compact by EPA measures, though the 2005 just might creep into the mid-size class. Subies are already small, they need bigger cars more than they need smaller cars.

I do think they could do things to make the current fleet more fuel efficient, like the 2.0l engine, Direct Injection, AVCS, etc.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

was that these kinds of cars could be a hit on college campuses as well as in an urban setting. I do think there are more than 3 people who would be interested. It could be Subaru's answer to the Scion or the Element.

Bob

ateixeira · May 2004

R1e is tiny, though. Scion and Element are very roomy and practical, and cheap to boot. A hybrid R1e would have to be expensive, probably close to $20k if it had AWD.

Any how, this is a topic for brainstorming ideas, so I'll shut up now. :-)

How do they appeal to college kids? Unfortunately I think price is the #1 issue. Styling is up there.

Mini Cooper buyers tend to be very old, IIRC.

It's a tough formula. The Echo bombed miserably (few, old people buy them), the exact same chassis and powertrain in a boxy shape is a huge hit - xB.

-juice

discopete · May 2004

You are entitled to your opinion,but did you know that BMW has redesigned the boxer engine in recent years? It now has air/oil cooling, electronic engine management, fuel injection and a catalytic converter. It has one cam and four valves per cylinder. The latest 1200 cc version puts out 100 HP, which is more than enough for a motorcycle.

The BMW boxer engine enjoys all the inherent design advantages of a (Subaru) boxer engine. If the normally aspirated 4-cylinder engine in my Impreza worked as well a BMW boxer, it would be putting out 200 HP, which it doesn't.

bat1161 · May 2004

As has been mentioned before, and as Juice paointed out above, with so many other manufacturers coming out with hybrids Subaru has to as well. With gas prices on the rise, people are looking for these vehicle types so SOA would not have to worry about lack of interest from the public.

Mark

locke2c · May 2004

Pete, we're way OT and it's not in my profile... but I ride a 2001 CBR 929. But for a closer comparison bike to the BMW twins, I point at Yamaha's fantastic FJ1300. Now *that* is a powerplant.

~c
PS, subaru could easily coax 200HP naturally aspirated out of a 2.5L boxer four. they don't need to though as their company profile is turbocharged engines.

discopete · May 2004

Yes, Colin, the FJ-1300 is a fine motorcycle. Considering its features and specifications, it is comparable to a BMW and is a steal at that price. If I were looking for a new bike, I'd probably switch over to one of those. I just disagree with the assertion that the BMW boxer twin is ready for the bone yard.

Suggestion for Subaru (back on topic): If Subaru could easily produce a 200 HP 4-cylinder, non-turbocharged boxer engine, they should do so. Such an engine, without the expense and complication of a turbo, would be most welcome. My '96 Impreza has an AT. While the acceleration is adequate at full throttle, it could use those few dozen more horses. Love that AWD, though - the power that it does have goes to the pavement for maximum effect.

ateixeira · May 2004

I'd like to see a weight loss strategy. The 2005s are 180 lbs lighter, more efficient, and probably quicker to boot.

-juice

bluesubie · May 2004

SoA, meet 17's. 17's meet SoA.

http://www.subaru.co.uk/imggb/www/subaru_accessories.nsf/WebInter- netAccessories/0918F49DD635188680256DC00048D064?Opendocument

Thank you. :-)

ateixeira · May 2004

SportShift first, I say. You can change rims easily, not a tranny though.

SportShift availability would knock 2-3 Crew members off The Fence immediately.

-juice

bluesubie · May 2004

They're made by Speedline and used to be available aftermarket. Now Speedline is sticking with the OEM business.

If I want them bad enough, I guess I'll just get them from the UK. Just trying to through some money SoA's way. :-)

-Dennis

rsholland · May 2004

should have the boost gauge as standard, and it should be properly integrated into the main instrument cluster on the dash. It should not be an afterthought add-on to the steering column.

Bob

locke2c · May 2004

I'll wholeheartedly second that opinion.

~c

volkov · May 2004

I'll third it.

Nicholas

njswamplands · May 2004

volkov · May 2004

I think that the steering wheel gauge looks like something a teenager bought at NAPA and cobbled on. It does not belong as factory accessory in a car of this calibre.
If I did the gauges I'd either do the triple - even though it's more expensive or maybe this: http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cceb97a56cc0fe000- - - 00001610
Just saw this on Nabisco, and don't know how expensive the set-up is, but I really like it. Nice touch that you aren't looking down from the road.

Nicholas

toboggan · May 2004

The final gear ratio for the 5/6speed manual gearbox should allow 80MPH at 3000 rpm. I'm gonna wear out my "poor ol'" 4 banger when running with the big boys. I know the automatics run at the aforementioned rpm/speed.

Geeze, these 4X4's, Suburbans, run at 80+ with boat/ATV/snowmobile trailers. Of course, I'm getting better gas mileage.

MNSteve

ateixeira · May 2004

I think that feeling is nearly universal.

-juice

paisan · May 2004

for an integrated boost gauge. If you are modding your car, you'll need to add an EGT gauge as well, so might as well add 2 or 3 aftermarket gauges.

Stock there is no need for a boost gauge.

I can see it now "i blew up my car cause my EGTs were too high, even though I knew the boost was at 18psi"

-mike

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