Dodge,Ford,Chevy-----Who Wins? - II

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Comments

  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Dell makes inferior products? Sony makes inferior products?

    there seems to be respectable company on the list, not fly by nite
  • chandler1989chandler1989 Member Posts: 6
    I've been researching Chevy's. I don't know hardly anything about the Dodge's or Ford's. What are the pros and cons? Which has more torque and HP?
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Well, i'll start. Chevy's are the newests design, so you have the latest technology. The engines have the widest power band, which gives you the most overall power at all speeds. Fords have the highest torque at lower rpms, so the Ford will sustain highway speeds under heavy load a little better. Fords mpg have increased with the latest versions of engines, not quite to GM's level, but close. Dodge engines are a little ancient, though bulletproof. they just don't offer the performance of GM and Ford. Look for the 'new' Dodge engines in the next year or two, they oughtta be winners.

    Chevy's--best horsepower, reliable powertrains, largest most comfortable cab (IMO), best ride. Some annoying quality issues

    Ford-- best pulling, reliable drivetrain, high production quality,

    Dodge - Big, heavy truck. very capable package. brakes, electronics, transmissions, reliable to some, lemons to others.
  • davids1davids1 Member Posts: 411
    I know that Dell makes great products, but Sony is just another four-letter-word for junk. This opinion is based on the few Sony products I have purchased, and regretted every one. So what Roc is saying is that most of these opinion polls are based solely on image. Just like Corona beer. Sells great here in the states, but is the bottom of the barrel south of the border. Why, you ask? Very effective marketing techniques, and marketing alone.
  • nrd525nrd525 Member Posts: 109
    Nah,you just got some bad stuff.Like just about all manufacturers of complex items,they have some bad design decisions,and sometimes a lemon too.I used to sell stereo stuff,Kenwood and Pioneer were my two of my biggest headaches,warranty wise.Technics and Sony were the best by far.The absolute worst stuff I sold was Sansui,who is apparently out of business now.Almost nothing I sold of theirs made it through the warranty period without a trip to the west coast.I got six big buck cassete decks once that had the heads wired wrong,so 1 channel was reversed all the time!I fixed them myself,a couple of days after that,I quit selling it...
  • davids1davids1 Member Posts: 411
    I've had excellent luck with Pioneer!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    i've had excellent luck with Sony, but also been to a store who 'said' they don't sell Sony because they all come back for warranty. seen lots of bad pioneers.

    This was the point. These companies are deeply rooted in the American public, and what the company has done LATELY, good or bad, shows in the general opinion. Yes, marketing has something to do with it, but the marketing machine alone doesn't sell the product or form the opinion, product performance and reliability does.

    I'm not putting the weight of the world on this, just thought it was interesting.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    cdean,

    I never said that Sony and Dell make inferior products. I simply don't put much stock in an "opinion" poll that most likely fluctuates wildly year to year.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    I think Sony, especially now that they've put their eggs in the basket for gaming products, have become purveyors of junk products.

    Back when the original Trinitron TVs were out, followed by Betamax, Walkman, they were better. I've been dissatisfied with my last 2 Sony color televisions, my Triniton 17" computer monitor was not much better, my VAIO notebook was junk, took it back, and my SONY CD rom burner worked, but the software drivers rendered my DVD drive in the bay unusable, took it back also.

    My Compaq Presario Notebook, Pentium III, 15" TFT active matrix color display, 6X DVD drive.....has been a joy. I have good luck with all the HP products too. If only they made TVs and stereos.
  • nrd525nrd525 Member Posts: 109
    It's kind of funny,when the original Trinitrons came out,my dad sold them,and wouldn't touch them himself due to lONG waits for parts.Wouldn't touch a Zenith either,they had a rotten picture,and were several years out of date,even back then(late 60's early 70's).Actually,I've never had a Sony TV,I've had phenomenal luck with Mitsubishi trinitron type TV's.I have two old timers right now,one almost 20 years old,one almost 18,and another small one was 15 when my dog pulled it off the shelf,BOOM.Never had any of them ever fixed.The 20 year old,is getting a weak red gun,and will be retired soon,replaced with a Sony or Toshiba,since all Mitsu makes are big screens anymore.
    When I got my first VCR in 1979,I went to where a friend worked,an appliance store that sold almost all the major brands back then,and he showed me the 4 to 1 Beta vs VHS repair rate,and
    most of the Sony and Zenith(Sony with a different label)had major problems.The VHS Panasonic/RCA,JVC had dumb stuff like the end of tape light burned out.I bought my first VHS VCR the next day.I knew VHS would win the format "war",the bigger tape,and the manufacturing alliance of JVC/PANA/RCA/Etc vs Sony and Zentith,would win.The only chance Beta had later on was when VHS HIFI sound was delayed a year or so,and Sony did some sales due to it,but not enough to stop the collapse.
    My 15" Sony monitor,has been a rock,my best friend has a 19" that's been great.I don't know about Sony PC's,but a lot of people I deal with are getting sick of the problems with Compaq stuff!
    The game systems are only a very small part of Sony's business.Right now,all the Japanese/Asian electronic companies are hurting due to the currency exchange.They are kind of treading water,waiting for the conditions to change.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Gee...and I thought GM was going to "rule" over Ford since the incredible introduction of the Silverado!..er...I mean "the Truck". When the newest entry can't top an older one--you've got problems.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    there's no break down between F150 and superduty. superduty is definitely not competing with Silverado, except for a few borderline 3/4 ton applications. Plus they are not including the current C/K sales.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    cdean,

    Those Chevy figures are indeed inclusive of the C/K series, just as the GMC Sierra includes both old and new bodies. Ford's last estimate was the Super Duty was about 40% of total F-series, but that includes all the way to F550.

    Note that even combined, Ford is beating the General (Chevy + GMC - same truck, after all).

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    There would be no reason why G.M. wouldn't include sales of the older body style.

    Thanx kcram
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Actually Mod, there is reason. Not necessarily GM, but the reporting party, in this case, PUTC. back when the Silverado and Sierra were introduced, it was noted in the headings Silverado/C/K. Now the headings just say Silverado. So I assumed they quit including C/K sales. apparently they are, they just quit telling it. I assume Kcram has been on the manufacturer websites and added the #'s up himself??? I don't have the energy to search there.

    KC, haven't seen you in a while. Hosting keeping you busy?? 40% of Ford's sales Superdutys? thats a lot of Superduties, especially for being a 'work truck'. Just curious, where does that number come from?

    Yes Mod, I was wrong. Glad to see you still act like a jealous 12 yr old.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    For an engineer you have a terrible grasp of the English vocabulary.

    Righteous? Yes. Vindictive?.......Ok. Jealous? Don't get it.

    The only jealousy I see is from you because Ford outsold your beloved G.M...........Again!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    I know enough about the English language to know you started your first sentence with a preposition and forgot a comma.

    You are jealous of either the knowledge I have or the respect I get. I am not sure which it is, but it definitely bugs you to the point you try to nitpick my points out of context, make up statements about me (Ford jealousy?), or make insults (grammar?) about things other than my technical knowledge so that you make yourself visible. And, of course, demean me at the same time. The result is the immature 'nanny-nanny booboos' like your Post 348. How old are you?

    We are here to talk trucks. Please feel free to email me and slam and argue with me all you want. This behavior does NOT add value to the Edmunds site, and I hope Meredith will step in and back me up on this.

    Civility and maturity go hand in hand. Are you capable of either?
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    You are so proud of your infinite wisdom you just can't wait to flaunt it every chance you get, even when you're wrong. Case in point, a guy asks about a group of trucks including a specific model. You come back with, "We're only discussing 1/2 tons." when it's pointed out to you, very politely I might add, you still argue and say I'm wrong. When someone asks about towing with a tow dolly, you go in to a song and dance about disconnecting driveshafts or whatever. THE GUY SAYS HE'S USING A DOLLY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!! I state cast iron heads make more power then aluminum heads all things being equal and you come back with some formula blah blah blah. I've done dyno tests on identical engines using Dart heads in both materials on identical engines. I've read many articles stating the same but you have to dispute everything. You don't like my analogy about muscles heating up and cooling like metals need to do, so I'm wrong when we were saying the same thing. You come back with "hypocritical", "jealous" etc. But I need to grow up. You look for support from the biggest instigator on the board who doesn't know how to decipher tire sizes but I need to grow up. I dispute your G.M. computer theory and you have an absolute tizzy. Man, how old are you???? You just can't stand to be questioned even when you don't read the whole post or are wrong. You start posts with,"You're wrong" or "You're almost correct." I did start using that on you and it obviously irritates you. Mission accomplished. I will steer clear of your 100% indisputable posts.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    That 40% came from Ford a few months back. It's up from 25% in 1997, the last year of the old body (1980-1997). The Louisville plant that makes Super Duties runs 24/6 - only closed on Sunday.

    And yeah, hosting is pretty time consuming (10-15 hours a week), but I enjoy it :)

    Also, confirmed for 2001.5 - Ram 2500s and 3500s go 4-wheel-disc/4-wheel-ABS standard, and add a few new colors. Those changes should take effect after assembly-plant summer vacation.

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Wow, Mod, seems you have some venting and releasing to do!!

    1/2 ton statement-i was wrong
    tow dolly--i was thinking rearwheel drive.
    iron/aluminum heads--I explained my side-never gave any proof of yours?
    metal/muscles-sorry, your explanation was wrong as i understand it, and i can prove it--can you explain beter?

    I love to be questioned. When i question a post, i back it up with science or something. Thats not flaunting knowledge--Thats proving a point! Something you never do. i could care less if you say i'm wrong--but you do it backhandedly and immaturely. you back it up with nothing. So I just come back and prove it everytime, w/o stooping to your level.

    You can keep 'em coming and I'll keep them coming back. Irritates me...try entertain. Honestly, whenever i take that daily break and click thru to Edmunds, I kinda look forward to making you look little, because it irritates you so much and its pretty easy. So we both have a common hobby? But it doesn't add to Edmunds, and I have been annoyed by watching others do this. So please email me if you would like to irritate me that way.

    but i think your last statement might be good advice. At your stress level, you'll have a heart attack before you hit age 18...
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Kcram
    Do you think Ford expected Superduty to be nearing half of their truck production??? I doubt it. I read somewhere that Dodge sells 1/5 of their trucks with the Cummins. Is that true? i thought it would be more...maybe just the sampling I see in South Texas.

    How's that Dodge treating you? Are you lining up for the new Benz diesel? I saw some rag predicted over 200hp. I would think they would try get close to 300 like Ford and GM.

    The new truck line from Dodge ought to be an eye turner--2002? The new Hemi's sound like monsters!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    its not on the web yet, but on newstands, the July issue of Popular Mechanics reports Dodge's use of the 6.4 MB diesel next year. I have seen Cummins statements simply saying that the 'current Ram' will stay Cummins. They left the loophole for the next Ram in that statement. Also, friend that works in the injector pump biz has seen specs and classes on the new Benz diesel fuel pumps. So what gives???

    So they finally got the Allison deal hashed out? Never heard it. My uncle works at an Allison/DD shop and he sees quite a few of thse RV's and such with the Cummins/Allison combo you spoke of. He said the customers are unanimous...They LOVE the combo. Generally they are amazed how the powertrain can feel that powerful, and still shift so seamlessly.

    So who gets the pricing advantage of the Allison? GM or Dodge? You would think GM would/could offer it for just a bit less $$.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    btw,
    i was speaking of Ford's next Generation Powerstroke (6.0), which has almost identical hp/tq of the duramax.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    The real irony is with the manual transmissions in the HD pickups. GM is half-owner of New Venture, along with DC - they would use the 5600 6-speed like the Ram, right? Nope, GM chose the ZF 6-speed that Ford puts behind the Powerstroke.

    Of course, the next Ram and the Silverado/Sierra will have another shared component - axles. American Axle, formerly GM Axle Division, will replace Dana as the axle supplier to Dodge. As a member of two Ram clubs, I can tell you there are more than a handful of folks who hope we strill get a solid front axle in the new Ram 4x4s, not the IFS that GM uses. Dodge, of course, has bever had an IFS 4x4.

    The new 'Stroke should be an interesting engine - Navistar seems like they're trying to use the best of all technologies. I still doubt the MB 6.4 would be used for two reasons - its torque is way too high for pickup use - base rating is almost 700 lb-ft, and after Dodge requested a redline increase on the Cummins from 2800 to 3200, why would they go back down to the 2500 of the MB? Cummins has a new B-series on the board that will be introduced in 2002, right in time for the new HD Ram. We'll see :)

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • jacorobjacorob Member Posts: 37
    I have a bug in me about wanting to tow a couple wave runners (yet to be purchased), and am hoping to get a rough estimate of what trucks would meet my needs to haul them. I live in Austin, TX hill country so don't have to worry about snow, but it's obviously (from the name) very hilly. I doubt I'll do much, if any, off-roading so don't really care about that (though the option is always nice...). I doubt i'd ever need to do any heavy duty towing.

    I currently own a 99 Honda Civic and will more then likely keep it for the gas milage and its rock solid reliability. I'd prefer to keep the cost down on the truck so i can spend more on toys, and not worry about scratching the bed or anything. In other words I don't plan on babying it, but i definetly want a very reliable truck like my car (i do routine maintenance, just don't do the wax job every other day, etc).

    Thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Bob
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Bob,

    One of the most important criteria today will be whether or not you need substantial cab space (lots of passengers or a need for gear that can't be out in the bed). A Dodge Dakota can easily handle 2 wave runners if cab space isn't an issue - or you can look at a Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra 1500, a Ford F150, Dodge Ram 1500, or Toyota Tundra.

    My recommendation for a durable low-cost ride - Dodge Dakota Club Cab, V6 5-speed.

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    any of the "big" trucks could handle a couple of wave runners - even the compacts. But I agree with kcram - Dakota...
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Bob, I know the hills of Austin, thats why I pull my boat south! :)

    how much cab room do you need? Dakota with v-8 would easily pull what you need. Not sure what the Dakota cost is, but I think you could get a Ford, GM, or Dodge half ton regular cab for less money than a Dakota. The truck would be a little more stable if you ever stepped your towing needs up to a full size boat, in the future.

    The extend cabs of the full-sizers take a price jump over the reg cabs...
  • jacorobjacorob Member Posts: 37
    Cab space isn't an issue. I'm single and would have my car if i need to haul more then 2 people, and if i'm providing the entertainment (waverunners) then other people can do the people mover thing.

    What difference does having an automatic vs manual make when you're pulling something? As sad as it is I don't know how to drive manual and really like the convenience of an automatic. Don't really wanna learn manual in austin hill country cause i'd be a rolling down a hill and in to the car behind me before getting it in to first gear.

    Totally appreciate the advice!
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    trucks have now days, you wouldn't need a manual for waverunners. It makes a difference if your pulling something very heavy and they usually get a little better MPG, but in your case I'd go for the convienence factor...
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    I don't know about Dodge or Chevy 1/2 tons or the Dakota but the Ford 1/2 tons are rated to tow much less with a manual. Though I doubt a couple watercraft would exceed the 5 speeds limits.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Sea doos?? Ahh, a S-10 with a four banger could do that.

    With that in mind, I'd consider a F-150 with xl trim and stick drive. Starting price is around 16 and the 5.4 would rack in another 800 bucks(?). Hell, with the six, you can come out with more in the wallet than with a loaded compact.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    don't know why those compacts sell as much as they do - must be the size, but you get so much more with a full size...
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    KC,

    How is it that you ended up in the "smart shopper" location? You ought to see if Meredith will swap topics with you! I believe you would be posting alot more---we kind of miss that honest Dodge approach.

    Roc
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Roc,

    That is by design. When Hosts and Community Leaders are hired, they are intentionally not put in what may be their area of expertise to improve their neutrality, but we are all free to post where we feel we can contribute, hence my continued posts here when I get a few minutes :)

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Over at PickupTruck.com. Nice to see a crew cab under the tarp (thank you, DC!!!)

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Still wish you could swap...
  • lariat1lariat1 Member Posts: 461
    Is that the slowdown in truck sales is due to gas prices and interest rate a little higher, but mostly due to half the country paying $1.70 a gallon for gas. Last weekend I was next to a guy at the gas station and he had a new Silverado with the 6.0L, I have a Ram with the Cummins and he said that if the price of gas keeps going up he is really going to consider a diesel.
    Up here in Alaska the price of diesel in Fairbanks is $1.57 gas is $1.67. Out in the little towns gas is $1.89 and diesel is $1.70. There is a big difference up here in prices depending on where you are.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    say Ford F series. Does this include 3/4 & 1 tons? Does it include F450, F550, etc., or just F-150's? With GM is it the same also? Just wondering if it's apples to apples...
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    The ford numbers include every truck in Fords lineup.

    I wondered about GM because the reporting agency says 'SILVERADO', which technically is NOT the C/K trucks which are concurrently sold with the silverado. Kcram said that the numbers did include all GM truck sales.

    I'm assuming, Kcram, that is correct? Have you looked up the actual numbers from GM and Ford? I'm too lazy to look myself ;)
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Ford F-series numbers include:
    F150 F250LD F250SD F350 F450 F550

    GM numbers include:
    Chevrolet
    - Chevy Silverado 1500 2500
    - Chevy C/K 2500HD 3500 3500HD
    GMC
    - GMC Sierra 1500 2500
    - GMC Sierra Classic 25-00HD 3500 3500HD

    Dodge numbers are:
    Ram 1500 2500HD 3500


    hope that helps :)

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    then why don't they just say Silverado/C/K? too many keystrokes?!?
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    F-450 & F-550 sales are in there. That's not apples to apples and I'm sure Ford would still be ahead, but that's not the point. Those are medium duty trucks...
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Swobig
    Actually it still would be apples to apples, because GM sells 2 versions of the 3500HD. they sell a 15000 gvrw and a 19000 gvrw which compete with the F450 and F550, respectively.

    And those are C/K models, sooooo back to assuming that falls under the 'Silverado' envelope...should be fair comparison.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Gm includes the C/K figures in their reporting of light-duty truck sales. It is also confirmed by JD Power--problem is, they want 30 bucks per copy so I find it easier to go to www.pickuptruck.com
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    i wish they would phase c/k out so we can stop having this recurring argument!!
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    C/K production has already stopped for the light duty trucks. The HD Silverado/Sierra trucks will be introduced this fall, featuring an uprated 6.0 V8, the new 8.1 V8 (a stroked 454) and the Duramax 6.6 turbo diesel (300hp/520 lb-ft). The 8.1 and Duramax will also be backed by the Allison 1000 5-speed automatic, and the same ZF 6-speed stick Ford uses with the Powerstroke. Appearance changes are slight - different grilles, and Chevy has a modest "bulge" in the hood. Like Dodge, all GM 3500s will be duallies; the 2500HD will have a rating close to the Ford F350 SRW. Interiors will be basically the same as the Sliverado/Sierra 1500/2500.

    The internal chassis codes are still C for 4x2 and K for 4x4.

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Another year....another year of Ford on top....
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    On top of the Junk Pile
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    If that makes you feel better by saying that Roc than great. I really don't think it much matter, but will think it will be significant if GM ever ousts them. I don't believe Chevy alone could do it, but combined with GMC they'll have a good chance. Ford has held the crown for so long is the only reason I think it would be significant - after that it wouldn't really much matter unless one is ahead of the other by 10-20%. Dodge fat chance...
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