Well, you're really comparing different trim levels. There is no comparable level on each model anymore, but the Outback's equipment level overlaps with the Forester X with Premium Package more so than the basic Forester X. That would erase the $2K difference also (premium package is $2350 retail). Also keep in mind that you should be able to negotiate close to invoice on 06 models, so use that pricing for a better comparison.
The biggest difference between the cars is the way they drive. The Forester is a lot more fun to drive, but the 05+ Outback is a more refined highway cruiser.
Thanks Craig. My wife is already saying she can hear the excuses: "Honey, I have to wash the car again." Although, she did suggest we look into a good car cover, until I can clean out my garage.
Its funny, when we were looking at the XT LTD it was either black or red. In the Bean, it was only Black. We didn't like the silver, or the "Willow Green".
Oh, and the Bean is indeed sporty looking. it just doesn't have a hood scoop Mark
The latest issue of Motor Trend mentions that their long-term 2005 Legacy GT has the same AC problem that you and I have. They said the dealer changed something to address the issue, but didn't get into specifics nor did they say if the "fix" worked. I'm going to contact Motor Trend for more information.
Fundamentally, I suppose, this is a matter of personal preference and economics. I know I should be better at conserving fuel/improving my mpg, but the H6 is so darn quick/fast that it is a great car for the Pike. It is quiet, handles great and, in inclement weather, it's attributes are heightened.
I never tested the 2.5I. Seems like a large number of posts believe that it is more than adequate for highway driving. The closest I come to the 2.5i experience is my wife's '03 Forester, which I am not particularly enamored of. But my problem might be the whole package, rather than the engine. When we were test-driving for her car, we also drove the OBs with similar engines. The OB was quieter and, for me, more comfortable; so what was the same engine seemed quicker and more responsive on the highway. Not too helpful, I suppose....
At 80 mph, my gas mileage ocvasionally reaches 21 mpg, but is usually around 20. Others seem to be doing much better with the 2.5i. And, with regular vs. premium, the savings might be considerable for you.
But, the H6 is a great driving experience. And, for all the time spent on the road and the desire to get home as quickly - and safely! - as possible, I, for one, would not choose a 2.5i over the H6.
Now, on Bean vs. VDC: the decisive factor was the VDC (another reason I would never do the 2.5i). The Bean seats are better and I like the look better; but, without VDC, I wouldn't do it.
If you burn as a standard audio CD, then it will play on any CD player. If you want to play the raw data files, then I think only the radio in the LL Bean / VDC models can do that (and only for MP3).
I'm picking up my new 06 Friday night. Since the 06 now has an immobilizer key, and I have the shock sensor as well, is it worth while to get a good aftermarket alarm system? If so, any suggestions on which one? I live in NYC, but the car would be in my driveway (hopefully in the garage witihn a few months) most of the time. Also, any input on remote starters? Worthwhile, or a waste of money? I could never have one before this as all my previous cars were manual transmission; this is the first auto I've owned.
If you have the factory alarm, then I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket one unless it had some crazy new feature. The factor alarm will honk if the doors are opened or the shock sensor is activated. The only thing you might want to add is some sort of switch for the hood if you are really worried.
The main benefit of studs will be found on hard icey surfaces, or hard-packed snow, where snow tires can't get a grip. They do tear up the road, however, and there may (?) be local/state laws governing their use.
All good information. Thank you. Do you think you would have problems if you use non premium fuel in the H6? You really have 45K on this car already? I am impressed. Any issues or problems?
I have not used studs for many years. In addition to rsholland's comments, which I think are accurate, I also found that on dry roads my traction seemed to be worse than without the studs. They worked great on ice and hard-packed snow, but I got rid of them because of the dry road issue. Tim
near the NY-MA-VT corner on the Rensselaer Plateau......now my cruise control is screwing up again, turning off after a minute or so of engagement while on the highway. dealer had it for three days last june (while I drove an impala) to send the ECM away "to be reprogrammed." now again. anyone else had this problem?
I haven't tried non-premium. Too worried. Others, I think, have.
The only problem has been replacing the headlights 3x. Also, had a problem with tire monitoring system; turns out the valve had corroded. Not a big deal. IMHO, pretty darn good.
Only two overall complainst: (1) wish I could easily hook up sat. radio; and (2) seat bottom is a bit too narrow for me. I am not huge...just spoiled by my Volvo XC seats. Re: the latter, a small price to pay compared to endless repair bills with the '99 XC.
the 06 2.5i interior in most offerings (sans silver or black exteriors) is a very rich looking beige....much nicer than the pukey beige (IMO) of the Forester. The black/grey interior is quite nice as well but makes the interior feel a little smaller than it is as well as likley abosrbing a lot of heat in the summer (wish Subaru would tint the windows!!!)
Anyone have the beige and how does it hold up. I'd think with kids and winter it would take a beating. Is it hard to clean? For a car that is 'rugged' (rugged can mean dirt), you'd think they'd have a darker color of sorts.
Can this right? I punched in (on Edmunds) an 04 Foreseter X with auto tanny and 18K miles and got a higher price (1K+) than for an 04 OB Base with auto tranny and 18K. Can this possible be right? Why? Does the OB depreciate a lot?
The title says it all, MY2004 was the last year of the old design for the Outback. Prices were lower, though the Forester still cost less even back then.
Any new you have a new design, the old one loses some value. Though that can make them a great value, because tried-and-true older models are actually the most reliable by far.
Forester is an SUV, and that segment does well in general, so maybe some of that rubs off.
Forester holds its value extremely well. My '98 is worth more than a Grand Cherokee of the same age, despite the fact that I paid a good $7 grand less when new.
I have a '06 2.5i Ltd OB 5MT with 1800 miles on it. It's a great car and I'm really happy with it, except for one thing....Since the day I bought it, within 30 seconds of a cold start, the car idles at ~2,000 rpm for the first 5 minutes. When I take the car out of gear, the idle drops to 500 rpm. When I put the car back in gear, it cranks back up to 2,000 rpm. I brought it to the dealer last week saying that the cold idle was too high. The service manager and two techs checked it out, spoke with Subaru and said it is "normal operation for the vehicle to idle at 1,500+ rpm." Does this sound right to anyone?
One person suggested that the computer would "learn" that such a high idle wasn't necessary and after a while the cold idle might drop. That sounded less likely than the story above that such a high idle is "normal operation." Has anyone else experienced anything similar? PS I live in Vermont so we've already been having mornings with temps in the 30s. But this problem occurred in September when the overnight temp was ~60.
I have a 2005 VDC & find it a very nice car. The OB I found to be under powered, particularly when going up hills (can't stand the 4 cylinder boom when engine is under load). When I was trying to decided, I test drove an OB that had been traded in with 3K's on it by someone who felt the car was under powered. It was fine on the highway, but noisier than I wanted at speed & just didn't have the passing power for the 2 lane highways I drive to the ski hills
The VDC is silky smooth & I love the turbine whin when accelerating, but do find that the car is, as people have commented, "thirsty" (it gets worse fuel economy than my 1986 mustang GT). The penalty is particularly punishing when driving in urban rush hour, so much so that I had the dealer check it out (thats another story) just to make sure there wasn't something wrong. Highway milage is quiet acceptable & I always feel a twinge of regret when my exit appears. It is a luxurious car and deceptively fast: I got my first speeding ticket on the highway last week & in my mind I wasn't speeding (speedo disagreed).
In short, you will love the H6 engine in particular and the VDC in general, but will pay at the pump.
The VDC is silky smooth & I love the turbine whin when accelerating, but do find that the car is, as people have commented, "thirsty" (it gets worse fuel economy than my 1986 mustang GT). The penalty is particularly punishing when driving in urban rush hour, so much so that I had the dealer check it out (thats another story) just to make sure there wasn't something wrong. Highway milage is quiet acceptable
For comparison: My W8 Passat wagon got about 9.5 mpg in such traffic and my VDC gets 11.5 to 12. Oddly, my VDC's highway mpg is slightly lower than the eight cylinder Passat's. These wagons should be directly comparable because both have full time AWD with nearly equal front/rear bias....with one exception with FOUR inches more ground clearance for the VDC. Perhaps the effective frontal area for the VDC is larger.
i got legacy 2.5i wagon automatic. i didn't pay any attention to the manual and sports modes when i decided to buy it. now i got it and it's extremely tempting to test out the manual mode. my questions:
1) can i save gas if i drive mostly in the manual mode. i spend 90% of my driving time on city roads, 10% on highways.
2) what's the optimal speed for each gear (1, 2, 3, 4)? i learned how to drive with a manual transmission, but i forgot.
The H6 does have a wonderful mechanical whir noise (think sewing machine but sexier). It's a pretty slick sounding engine and super smooth, and has none of the semi-crude rumble of the H4 (which I also like). I had the older H6 in my 02 Outback and it was a gem of an engine. Very refined and zingy, and also gave up to 30 MPG!
On my OB XT (H4 turbo), I get the H4 rumble and then a muted "pssshh" from the turbo. On my WRX you could actually hear the turbo whine.
I doubt you would save gas -- the real "loss" in an auto transmission is the fluid coupling (torque converter) which you still would be overcoming in "manual" mode.
In normal mode, the transmission shifts very conservatively and gives about the best efficiency you can expect from an auto trans (if you can put up with the low rpm shifts and resistance to downshifting). Sport mode shifts at higher RPMs and downshifts readily. I use sport mode all the time and like it a lot (and have not noticed a MPG hit).
About the best you could do is use manual mode to replicate the shifting tendencies of "normal" mode. Personally, I'd just let the transmission do the shifting!
The only time I find manual mode on my auto saves me gas is when I'm in a traffic jam on the highway. My car (in this case, a lincoln ls) will always want to downshift when the traffic moves for brief periods and i get to accelerate. So selecting manual mode allows me to force it to stay in 2nd or 3rd, rather than allowing it to downshift to 1st.
For normal around town driving, as long as i don't put my foot into it, the tranny takes care of everything just fine without my input.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
just decided to add the Legacy to my ever changing (not so) short list. Anyway, a couple of quickies for the experts:
1) what kind of real-world mileage do people tend to get with the 2.5i/5 speed combo? About sticker (22/29), bit better, bit worse? I have a Scion tC now which is rated the same, and I get about 24ish around town and 29-30 highway, and want to at least stay the same.
2) how is the stick version geared? Is it buzzing along on the highway? One big flaw with the tC is it is geared way too short. Any ballpark about what the Sube would be turning at 70 (of course, an exact mph per 1000 number would work too!)
Answer to 1) - I'm getting close to EPA with 4k on the odo. 2) - My impression is that the engine runs too fast in 5th. Either the engine should be slower or there should be a 6th gear.
Major irritations - obnoxious seat belt warning we have been unable to turn off and rough cruise control going downhill.
First one for me, placed mid-pack overall. Fun to legally get some higher speed sliding/training in. Much better now in knowing when/how to control lift throttle and power oversteer.
Seat-belt Chime. You can turn-off the seat belt chime, and I believe the information is in the Maual or one of the accompanying booklets. It is an equally obnoxious procedure of cycling the ignition and unbuckling the seat belt ten times or so. I cannot remember the details, as I performed it over a year ago, but there is (was) a sticky on the procedure at legacygt.com.
I do remember it as being the most hideous chime of any car I have owned and use to drive me nuts; as my morning routine includes opening two gates (manually) at the end of my driveway and driving two blocks to get out again and get the paper.
- Turn key to accessory-on position. Dash will light up and the chimes will start going off - Buckle-unbuckle your seatbelt 20X - Turn key back to off and remove
The chimes should be gone the next time you start your car. However, they return after you disconnect the battery.
i'm driving a crappy mitsubishi lancer right now because the computer on my '05 OB 2.5 is being sent away for the second time in five months. the speed control OCCASIONALLY stops working as one drives the car down the highway. it will turn itself off after a minute and then do it again and again. And when it works it IS rough - especially going downhill. the car acts like the brakes are being hit to keep the speed down when going downhill. not very smooth at all, disconcerting. the system in my '98 ranger works much better.
check this out: mp3, sat radio, nav, traffic, weather in one package. the audio for all 3 can be heard through car stereo through built in fm transmitter.
Nice! I like the traffic part - just have to see how well it works. I find it ironic that you have to get something like this unit in order to get the weather band back into a Subaru .
Of course, they don't go into the details on how much the different services (SAT / Traffic) will run.
Still, $1293 is better than the $1800 for the Subaru NAV.
So if I understand the maintenance schedule correctly, this is what I gather:
1) Oil changes are every 7500 miles or 7.5 months, whichever comes first, except under severe driving conditions**
2) 3.0L models have the additional requirement of having their first oil change at 3000 miles (or 3 months)
** Severe driving conditions changes interval requirement to every 3750 miles or 3.75 months. Severe conditions include:
a. repeated short distance driving b. rough / muddy roads c. dusty conditions d. extremely cold weather e. salts and other corrosive road materials f. coastal areas g. towing a trailer
Given that I have a 2.5XT and live in a coastal area, my schedule will be every 3750 miles. So why then did my service advisor tell me that my first oil change is due at 3000 miles? FWIW, I've had the car for just over 4 weeks now and have 2800 miles on it.
Not bad for Sat radio and traffic info. In fact I think the package combined makes it a lot easier to justify the monthly cost.
I don't think that Garmin unit has a battery, that's my qualm with it.
I'd like to see a new c Series model that could do this, they have the c320, c330, c340, maybe now they could come out with a c350 that added similar features. Plus the c series costs a bit less.
Apparently, Subaru has paid attention to the somewhat disappointing performance of the 2005 Legacy in the IIHS's difficult side impact test. The press release below references changes Subaru made to the side structure, seats, and torso airbag that now make the Legacy a 'Best Pick' in the side test, one of few vehicles to earn that designation. Additionally, it is one of only 5 tested models to receive a "Good" rating specifically for structure.
Yes, kudos to Subaru! But I wasn't expecting anything less than good results the second time around. I have a feeling they were surprised by the results of the 2005 model in that it didn't get top scores the first time around.
It looks like they basically addressed some of the weak points from the 2005 results by tweaking the B-pillar and the side airbags to get better scores. I think it's a testament to the underlying structure of the 05+ Leg/OB and years of Subaru focusing on improving crash scores.
So why then did my service advisor tell me that my first oil change is due at 3000 miles?
Because your service advisor wants to make money off you. Most shops recommend 3000 mile intervals regardless of your driving conditions. It's a myth they use to make more money.
The "coastal" requirement is a new one to me. I live in a coastal area and have always followed 7500 mile intervals. Even had an oil analysis done a couple years ago to satisfy my curiosity, and they said I could probably stretch it to 10000 miles (which, coincidentally, is the recommended interval for my wife's Acura).
Comments
Craig
The biggest difference between the cars is the way they drive. The Forester is a lot more fun to drive, but the 05+ Outback is a more refined highway cruiser.
Craig
Its funny, when we were looking at the XT LTD it was either black or red. In the Bean, it was only Black. We didn't like the silver, or the "Willow Green".
Oh, and the Bean is indeed sporty looking. it just doesn't have a hood scoop
Mark
FJ60
I never tested the 2.5I. Seems like a large number of posts believe that it is more than adequate for highway driving. The closest I come to the 2.5i experience is my wife's '03 Forester, which I am not particularly enamored of. But my problem might be the whole package, rather than the engine. When we were test-driving for her car, we also drove the OBs with similar engines. The OB was quieter and, for me, more comfortable; so what was the same engine seemed quicker and more responsive on the highway. Not too helpful, I suppose....
At 80 mph, my gas mileage ocvasionally reaches 21 mpg, but is usually around 20. Others seem to be doing much better with the 2.5i. And, with regular vs. premium, the savings might be considerable for you.
But, the H6 is a great driving experience. And, for all the time spent on the road and the desire to get home as quickly - and safely! - as possible, I, for one, would not choose a 2.5i over the H6.
Now, on Bean vs. VDC: the decisive factor was the VDC (another reason I would never do the 2.5i). The Bean seats are better and I like the look better; but, without VDC, I wouldn't do it.
Craig
Thanks,
Mark
Thank you
Craig
Bob
The only problem has been replacing the headlights 3x. Also, had a problem with tire monitoring system; turns out the valve had corroded. Not a big deal. IMHO, pretty darn good.
Only two overall complainst: (1) wish I could easily hook up sat. radio; and (2) seat bottom is a bit too narrow for me. I am not huge...just spoiled by my Volvo XC seats. Re: the latter, a small price to pay compared to endless repair bills with the '99 XC.
Over 47,000, now!
Anyone have the beige and how does it hold up. I'd think with kids and winter it would take a beating. Is it hard to clean? For a car that is 'rugged' (rugged can mean dirt), you'd think they'd have a darker color of sorts.
Any new you have a new design, the old one loses some value. Though that can make them a great value, because tried-and-true older models are actually the most reliable by far.
Forester is an SUV, and that segment does well in general, so maybe some of that rubs off.
Forester holds its value extremely well. My '98 is worth more than a Grand Cherokee of the same age, despite the fact that I paid a good $7 grand less when new.
-juice
Wagon was decently balanced, plenty more to give. The driver behind the wheel needs more mods!
-B
One person suggested that the computer would "learn" that such a high idle wasn't necessary and after a while the cold idle might drop. That sounded less likely than the story above that such a high idle is "normal operation." Has anyone else experienced anything similar? PS I live in Vermont so we've already been having mornings with temps in the 30s. But this problem occurred in September when the overnight temp was ~60.
The VDC is silky smooth & I love the turbine whin when accelerating, but do find that the car is, as people have commented, "thirsty" (it gets worse fuel economy than my 1986 mustang GT). The penalty is particularly punishing when driving in urban rush hour, so much so that I had the dealer check it out (thats another story) just to make sure there wasn't something wrong. Highway milage is quiet acceptable & I always feel a twinge of regret when my exit appears. It is a luxurious car and deceptively fast: I got my first speeding ticket on the highway last week & in my mind I wasn't speeding (speedo disagreed).
In short, you will love the H6 engine in particular and the VDC in general, but will pay at the pump.
For comparison: My W8 Passat wagon got about 9.5 mpg in such traffic and my VDC gets 11.5 to 12. Oddly, my VDC's highway mpg is slightly lower than the eight cylinder Passat's. These wagons should be directly comparable because both have full time AWD with nearly equal front/rear bias....with one exception with FOUR inches more ground clearance for the VDC. Perhaps the effective frontal area for the VDC is larger.
I am glad you like the car, but the H6 is not turbocharged so you should not be hearing any turbine whine when accelerating.
Was that a rally-x course? Totally stock?
Ken
On my LGT wagon, the turbo spool up sounds more like a muffled "psssssst" sound than a whine, FWIW.
Ken
1) can i save gas if i drive mostly in the manual mode. i spend 90% of my driving time on city roads, 10% on highways.
2) what's the optimal speed for each gear (1, 2, 3, 4)? i learned how to drive with a manual transmission, but i forgot.
thanks a lot in advance!
On my OB XT (H4 turbo), I get the H4 rumble and then a muted "pssshh" from the turbo. On my WRX you could actually hear the turbo whine.
Craig
In normal mode, the transmission shifts very conservatively and gives about the best efficiency you can expect from an auto trans (if you can put up with the low rpm shifts and resistance to downshifting). Sport mode shifts at higher RPMs and downshifts readily. I use sport mode all the time and like it a lot (and have not noticed a MPG hit).
About the best you could do is use manual mode to replicate the shifting tendencies of "normal" mode. Personally, I'd just let the transmission do the shifting!
Craig
For normal around town driving, as long as i don't put my foot into it, the tranny takes care of everything just fine without my input.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
1) what kind of real-world mileage do people tend to get with the 2.5i/5 speed combo? About sticker (22/29), bit better, bit worse? I have a Scion tC now which is rated the same, and I get about 24ish around town and 29-30 highway, and want to at least stay the same.
2) how is the stick version geared? Is it buzzing along on the highway? One big flaw with the tC is it is geared way too short. Any ballpark about what the Sube would be turning at 70 (of course, an exact mph per 1000 number would work too!)
I guess that's about it for now.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
into a gear calculator seems to give 2853 rpm at 70mph.
Disclaimer: I do NOT own a Legacy.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2) - My impression is that the engine runs too fast in 5th. Either the engine should be slower or there should be a 6th gear.
Major irritations - obnoxious seat belt warning we have been unable to turn off and rough cruise control going downhill.
-juice
I do remember it as being the most hideous chime of any car I have owned and use to drive me nuts; as my morning routine includes opening two gates (manually) at the end of my driveway and driving two blocks to get out again and get the paper.
- Turn key to accessory-on position. Dash will light up and the chimes will start going off
- Buckle-unbuckle your seatbelt 20X
- Turn key back to off and remove
The chimes should be gone the next time you start your car. However, they return after you disconnect the battery.
Ken
http://www.garmin.com/products/sp2730/
no need to wait for subaru to bring these
Craig
i use fm transmitter with my Delphi DVD in my van, it works great !
Of course, they don't go into the details on how much the different services (SAT / Traffic) will run.
Still, $1293 is better than the $1800 for the Subaru NAV.
Mark
all in traffic/sat/weather service is 16.95/mo
1) Oil changes are every 7500 miles or 7.5 months, whichever comes first, except under severe driving conditions**
2) 3.0L models have the additional requirement of having their first oil change at 3000 miles (or 3 months)
** Severe driving conditions changes interval requirement to every 3750 miles or 3.75 months. Severe conditions include:
a. repeated short distance driving
b. rough / muddy roads
c. dusty conditions
d. extremely cold weather
e. salts and other corrosive road materials
f. coastal areas
g. towing a trailer
Given that I have a 2.5XT and live in a coastal area, my schedule will be every 3750 miles. So why then did my service advisor tell me that my first oil change is due at 3000 miles? FWIW, I've had the car for just over 4 weeks now and have 2800 miles on it.
I don't think that Garmin unit has a battery, that's my qualm with it.
I'd like to see a new c Series model that could do this, they have the c320, c330, c340, maybe now they could come out with a c350 that added similar features. Plus the c series costs a bit less.
I'd love to see Subaru try to integrate all this.
-juice
http://www.iihs.org/news/2005/pr110205.html
Kudos to the Subaru folks for the speedy change.
Joe
Funny thing was they didn't really say they were going to make drastic changes. The results are drastically better, though.
Wild. In a good way.
-juice
It looks like they basically addressed some of the weak points from the 2005 results by tweaking the B-pillar and the side airbags to get better scores. I think it's a testament to the underlying structure of the 05+ Leg/OB and years of Subaru focusing on improving crash scores.
Ken
Because your service advisor wants to make money off you. Most shops recommend 3000 mile intervals regardless of your driving conditions. It's a myth they use to make more money.
The "coastal" requirement is a new one to me. I live in a coastal area and have always followed 7500 mile intervals. Even had an oil analysis done a couple years ago to satisfy my curiosity, and they said I could probably stretch it to 10000 miles (which, coincidentally, is the recommended interval for my wife's Acura).
CRaig