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~Colin
FJ60
Besides, another + is that there are less places for problems, as instead of a gasket between the window and door frame and another between the door frame and cab, you only have one. Water leakage? Really? That would be a new one for these ears. After 10.5 years and 203K miles, the only problem with mine at all is a slight tearing at the top of the gussets that allow some whistling in windy conditions. I'm sure I could fix it with a little silicon if I just took the time to do it. But it is so minor that I typically do not think about it.
Rattling? Yes, on my '96 anyway, not sure about the newest version. But only when the window is at least an 1" down and more than 1/2 way up. Otherwise they do not. For example, the back windows to not rattle when they are "all the way" down even though they still protrude from the door... what, a 1/3 the way up?
An odd thing to be a deal breaker. But, if you like frames then you like frames!
As for theft, they'll steal your car-framelss window, alarm, the club, whatever. Real thieves don't use coathangers!
I think if the frameless windows are such a problem, then maybe the OB is not the car for you. But it's a great car, and I hope something as small as this isn't a dealbreaker.
tom
As for the Tribeca, here's something right out of a USA Today article:
The door glass is metal-framed, rejecting Subaru's signature frameless glass that leaves top and rear edges of the windows naked of structure or support. Tribeca's bigger doors and bigger windows need the extra structure of a frame, the automaker says.
Ken
Not really. try it. You can easily pry a door away from the frame, stick a wooden door stop in as a wedge, and use a wire to unlock the power locks. Because that's what AAA did to get into our Nissan. It took longer for him to get out of the truck and get the tools than to unlock it.
Subaru engineers believe the steel is better used elsewhere. For example, strengthening the B pillars.
Just curious . . . what other vehicle are you considering to purchase?
FJ60
Legacy/Outback have been frameless since 1990. They have had three redesigns. What makes you think they will change it soon?
I'm very close to pulling the trigger on 2006 Legacy GT Limited Sedan, but I heard that paint quality on Legacy is not so great.
I like to keep my cars at least 8~10 years but I don't want to have a car that's going to look...old. How do the paint hold up after 8+ years?
My current car is 8 years old and the paint looks as good as the day I bought it.
I live in So Cal so not much to consider weather wise. It's sunny and warm almost all year around.
All in all, after 203K miles and 10.5 years, I am happy with how well it has held up. I have only seen one 95-99 body style Subaru that looked like the paint was in disrepair... and the whole car looked quite abused so I can hardly blame that on manufacturer defects!
As mentioned above the rear door window in particular is gigantic.
Plus, bad example, Forester and Outback outsell the Tribeca by a wide margin. Tribeca is also short of sales forecasts, though it is close.
-juice
I think XT will be quicker as it has more torque but...
the car which has transmission in proper gear will be faster but my bet is on XT.
Krzys
~Colin
Also over at another forum, a tuner reports that typically he sees the H6 measuring 170WHP vs. 200WHP on the turbo models.
The H6 engine excels in smoothness and would be the main reason to buy one. The turbo H4, on the other hand, has a much broader torque curve.
Ken
Highway passing speeds - XT somewhat faster.
Listed 0-60 times for the H6 OBW vary from 6.6 to 8.5 seconds.
People who care about 0-60 times buy the XT or Legacy GT.
I posted my [H6] dyno results on legacygt.com. The H6 generated 170 whp burning regular. On the same dyno most 2.5 turbos yield about 200 -so 15% less.
I'm going to do another run in a week or two, running Premium and with and without the factory air cleaner. The guy who runs the dyno (TDC Tuning) says this will make little difference.
I am thinking about buying a 2006 Outback 2.5i AT. Some reviews written on the web comment on this model having rather limited power when driving on inclines.
I will be cruising back and forth between Sacramento (CA)and Reno(NV) and sometimes up I-5 from Sacramento to Portland (OR). Won't be towing anything, won't have more than four people in the car.
Any comments on the adequacy of the base 2.5i model to make it up and over these mountain ranges would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I drive the same route over I80 from Sacramento to Reno several times a month for work and never felt like my 2001 Outback was lacking for power. Granted, it was an '01 and you're looking at an '06, but they are similar enough to make a comparison. In fact, the newer ones have about 10 more HP and weigh slightly less. The car had no trouble pulling those steep grades in 5th gear at 75mph, which is about as fast I tend to drive that route anyways. If you're looking for a ton of reserve power on those hills, there's not much left without downshifting, but I never felt like the car was underpowered in the mountains.
Even with a full load of gear on the roof and passengers, I thought my Outback was an excellent road trip car -- comfortable and quiet all day long. I wish I had never sold it!
Brian
I also agree that the base engine should be adequate for the type of driving you describe. In fact, on your drives over I-80 to Reno, you'll see quite a few Subarus, many of them with the base 2.5 engine. If it weren't enough, you wouldn't see them there.
My preference, however, for that particular engine is a 5MT. My previous vehicle was a 1998 Forester with the 2.5 engine (less power than today's) but when mated to a 5MT, it never felt like it was out of power.
Ken
I would recommend trying to drive one on the routes in question. I think it is all a matter of expectations and how much power means to you.
Karl
The 4 bangers are more shaky at idle, not as smooth.
-juice
Hope this helps.
Len
Cheers from [rainy, again] Seattle
Ken
Is that syllogism or what! Thought it was kind of funny!
Ken
Len
PS - Still rainy in Seattle. I'd say the OB is the ultimate lousy-weather car - must be why this place is crawling with them.
Changing the tires made a significant difference in the handling of the car, but as I continue to drive the LGT I find myself longing for a stiffer suspension setup. While I enjoy the supple ride, especially on my frequent pothole ridden NY Thruway trips, I am getting more and more irritated by the so-so cornering abilities of the car due to a fair amount of body lean. Quite simply, especially now that the car is no longer new, the suspension isn't sporty enough for my tastes. I'm getting so disenchanted that I've even considered ditching the LGT for a new A4 Avant.
When the Legacy GT spec. B came out, I thought that I might install those suspension components on my wagon to give my car a more sporty ride. However, the recent Car & Driver review (4/2006) of the Legacy spec. B wasn't all that glowing, revealing that even with a stiffer suspension setup there was still more body roll than a proper sport suspension (in the German tradition) should have.
Does anyone have suggestions--from actual vehicle experience on their own LGT (wagon, ideally but sedan ok) preferred--for suspension modifications that would give my car sharper reflexes and handling? :confuse: Furthermore, can anyone recommend a tuner shop or mechanic in the Hudson Valley (from Albany down to NYC) or Northern New Jersey who I could trust with the installation of new springs, struts, etc.? :confuse:
The 24 yo writers at C&D are confused. German cars "traditionally" have a lot of body role, as there are a lot of rough roads there and you need the suspension travel to keep the wheels on the ground.
US muscle cars were usually set up with very little body roll. Works great in CA or other places that don't have frost heaves or potholes. Cars that don't have much suspension travel don't roll much.
- Upgrade rear sway bar to JDM spec
- Install JDM spec springs
- Go whole hog and update springs as well as struts
The GT and Spec B do have more roll than comprable cars, but that does not always equate to worse handling. In the recent R&T comparison, the Spec B did show the most body roll but it posted one of the fastest slalom times.
Ken
What is the difference between the Japanese and US suspension specs? Will JDM sway bar and springs eliminate the body roll, or will there still be some roll? Would JDM sway bar+springs be tuned to work with US struts? Should my Subaru dealership be knowledgible about JDM specs, as well as able to sell and install these products?
As for the specific differences, one person measured the spring rates to be:
USDM Legacy GT: 299 lbs/inch
JDM Legacy GT: 355 lbs/inch
Also the USDM GT gets a 16mm rear swaybar vs. the 20mm on the JDM. The front sways are the same.
One person who drove both the JDM and USDM mentioned that although the USDM model does roll more, ultimate grip and brake/dive squat are very similar to the JDM model.
The softer suspension, while maybe not as confidence insipring, goes a long way on our less than ideal roads in the US.
For starters, I'd go with the JDM rear sway bar. It's an easy mod, not too expensive and should help with responsiveness.
Ken
The Impreza and Forester had wheel bearing issues until 02 or 03, but the Legacy never really did. In fact they'd put Legacy bearings on the other models to fix those.
So I'm not sure what to say. You got what we jokingly call a Friday 5pm build. It's very rare to see as many issues as you've had.
-juice
-juice
I bought the OB based on much of my research here and other sites. I was really hot on the RAV4, but discovered it had some drawbacks. The OB has a great reputation and seemed like a good deal. ($300 below invoice, $2000 rebate and full KBB on the Passat)
Anyway, I am looking forward to many years of service with the OB.
Would like some sage advice from veteran owners as to things to look for, necessary accessories and general tips to make this a pleasant experience.
Thanks.
You'll also make the ride very harsh and lose handling ability on back roads.
Most dealers won't touch any of this. There are many spring options. best thing to do is find someone with modifications and drive the car over that road and see if you can live with it before shelling out the $$$.
The new SI-Drive system allows the driver to maximize engine performance, control and efficiency by choosing from among three selectable modes – “Intelligent”, “Sport” and “Sport Sharp”– using a rotary dial on the center console.
The SI-Drive controls the electronic throttle system’s response and fuel and ignition curves to modify engine torque characteristics, changing the performance character of the car in each mode. With "Intelligent" mode selected, the system reduces engine torque and maximum power and switches to a more relaxed throttle response curve. Intelligent mode is an ideal choice for smoother response while commuting in traffic, for example, where it can also help boost fuel efficiency by up to 10 percent. In addition, "Intelligent" mode’s more relaxed responses and lower torque output make it an ideal complement to the low-traction surface driving safety provided by the Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive System.
In “Sport” mode, the performance of the 2.5 GT spec.B (and other 2007 turbo Legacy and Outback models) is similar to the 2006 model, with quick throttle responses and powerful, linear acceleration. The linear acceleration characteristic of this versatile mode makes it ideal for driving on freeways and suburban streets or for climbing mountain roads.
In “Sport Sharp” mode, SI-Drive modifies the engine’s electronic throttle mapping to deliver lightning quick throttle response and more power sooner. Delivering maximum driving enjoyment, this mode is ideal for tackling twisty roads and for merging or overtaking other vehicles on the highway with confidence."
http://www.subaru.com/common/news/article_details.jsp?file=latest_news_index.xml- - - - &articleId=20060413&attrNavItemId=NEWS_LATEST_NEWS
I'm on my second Subaru (2005 Outback 3.0R VDC wagon)and I have had minimal service requirements outside of oil changes and tire rotation. I did have the rear hatch strut problem like some of the Tribecas which was cheerfully remediated by my dealer. Incidentally the Outback oil change costs $100 LESS than for my 2002 W8 Passat.
The floaty or bouncy-bouncy feeling is NOT during cornering...It is when the car is running in a straight line and simply goes over slight dips or undulating road....I see lots of people adding coils and springs and such but I dont want to lose the great comfortable ride.
I have checked out many cars and the Outback is the closest to perfect for me due to the quietness, smooth ride, quality, awd....but the float is a problem. I have checked out the Legacy GT but too much sport for me as a daily driver and my compromise MIGHT be a base Legacy but it's not even close to an Outback. The Outback is sooooooo close to perfect. My wife is telling me to get a BMW and was thinking a used 315ci or something but the expense scares me.
Can tires alone address this floaty-ness ?
Someone else had posted: "After putting 15k miles on the stock tires, I recently replaced them with Falkens... the cheapest decent tire Discount Tires stocks, and the difference is huge. No more bouncy-bouncy." Any comments/info will be much appreciated
cyberfire12: congrats, first off.
What model? Color? trans? Tell us more about it...
-juice
Would you explain more about how the Outback is close to being the ideal car for you? Do you need the extra suspension travel and ground clearance? If no, and the float bothers you, I would think the base Legacy would be a close contender. Aside from the suspension, the two are very similar vehicles under the slightly different body cladding. Also the base Legacy is a tad lighter than the Outback so it would also give you better acceleration as well.
Ken
I upgraded to Advan ST tires (36f/34r), a 20mm RSB (OE JPM), and as much negative front camber as I could dial-in (-.4degrees). This reduced the mid-turn pogoing, understeer, and straight ahead float to a large degree; but the suspension still needs stiffer dampening IMO. So far the aftermarket is ignoring us. There are coil-over options, but most of us with coil-over experience would not even consider them for a street car (NVH, inevitable issues).
My biggest complaint with the suspension right now is for the rear suspension's proclivity to easily compress into the bumpstops, which was even worse before my mild mods. Makes for a jarring commute through the city streets, long-travel suspension be-damned.