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Comments
Eliminating the Multi-Display, Aluminum Rims, and Automatic Climate-Control would lower the cost by over $1,000.
At what point does the $$$ number-crunching become senseless, where it's so close that buyers simply don't care?
Some people aren't interested in saving only a few hundred dollars. And that point, they're more interested in tiny details, like how the vehicle physically feels when sitting in it.
JOHN
___$1,000 isn’t going to cut it as it is not enough to close the gap. You have already stated you expect to take a $7,500 depreciation hit on your 60,000 mile Prius yet saved ~ $400 in fuel over an imaginary 01 Corolla owner. According to the Edmunds Used Car Price guide, the same imaginary clean 01 Corolla owner takes a hit of ~ $5,500 at trade in time. Also according to Edmunds, your used but clean 01 Prius w/ 60,000 will fetch just $12,021 as an average so your estimates are ahead by another $1,000 over what Edmunds says your Prius is worth?.
___Would you mind also telling me what you paid in State tax for the purchase of your $20,500 Prius vs. what I would have had to pay on an 01 $14,000 Corolla? Here in Illinois, I would have had to pay an additional $422 for the 01 Prius vs. the 01 Corolla. The Federal Tax break was worth a bit more than that so I would have saved another $100.00 in total. How did you make up the $2,000 - $3,000 depreciation gap with $400.00 savings in fuel and $100 in tax benefit? Take it out over 150,000 and it gets worse due to the battery replacement.
___Again, the only reason I got involved in this thread is because someone was estimating the TCO of a Corolla vs. a Prius without using a good TCO comparison.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Moreover, the actual TCO is also dependent on region. The difference in fuel consumption is much higher for city drivers than for highway drivers, certainly; but one also has to take into account the fact that EPA tests are conducted at an assumed 68°F (if I remember correctly). A highway driver in the South or Southwest may see a larger difference than one in the Northwest, as the air conditioner on a 2004 Prius will make use of the electric generation capacity otherwise unused during highway travel and thus have little or no effect on performance and fuel consumption; whereas a highway driver in a car with an engine-driven air conditioning compressor will see a noticeable performance and mileage decrease when it's 110°F in Phoenix or 90°F and humid in New Orleans or Miami.
If total cost of ownership is the only criterion when selecting a car, however, a more-economical and even more heavily-discounted Echo would be a better choice than either a Prius or a Corolla, and a gently-driven one- or two-year-old car would be a better choice still. Most new car buyers in prosperous countries have other considerations in mind -- everything from room (the 2004 Prius offers room for four passengers that's comparable to a Camry, although the tapered rear means the back seat is noticeably more squished for five), to acceleration and handling, to styling, to social signifiers. Although the percentage of MSRP (and probably actual street price) retained by a BMW 3-series at resale probably exceeds that of either a Corolla or a Prius, the absolute depreciation cost is higher, and the cost of fuel consumed and maintenance after the included maintenance period will certainly be higher. People still buy them, though, because the driving experience is better and because BMWs have a certain cachet -- both qualities for which substantial numbers of buyers are willing to commit their loan or lease dollars. Environmentally concerned buyers will feel the same way about the Prius, especially since the driving experience of the 2004 model will be far less of a sacrifice compared to other choices than was that of the 2001-2003 model; and there will be a certain "geek chic" associated with the high-tech, lower-impact design.
So, yeah, for one buyer in one situation for whom only one aspect of a car makes any difference, the 2004 Prius doesn't rate as highly as a 2004 Corolla. Granted, conceded, etc. A single-occupant Prius would consume more fuel per passenger-mile than a Suburban with five occupants in it, too. It's not really a blanket criticism to be leveled at the car, though; it's more akin to someone saying that they really want an all-black interior and, because the Prius doesn't offer it, it's off the list of prospective cars.
I was making the assumption that both cars would only last 150,000 total. I did acknowledge that if the Corolla is likely to go further than the Prius w/o needing major repairs (like battery replacement) than the Corolla would be the better choice. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding the life of the battery pack. It's "expected life" (whatever that means) is 150k -200k miles. Not wanting to be optimistic I took the lower number.
I did not say anyone would want to buy a used Prius with 150,000 miles on it. I wouldn't either. I assumed that both cars would need major reapairs or a trip to the junk yard after 150,000 miles. This may not be a valid assumption. Like I said, if the Corolla will go further than 150,000 miles w/o needing junked/major repairs, than my TCO comparison breaks down. I acknowledge your point regarding that.
I have only owned used cars so far, so I am not familiar with the ease or lack of ease of paying less than MSRP. Like I said, I had no way of quantifying the price a person would "really pay" for a vehicle. Likewise, I had no way of knowing the mileage a person would "really get," I just went by the EPA estimates. My conclusions are only as good as the numbers that go into it, and if the numbers I see on toyota.com are not accurate, than my conclusions will not be accurate either.
1st of all Prius-2004 comes half way between Corolla & Camry in passenger space and luggage capacity, so comparing Corolla with Prius-2004 is not a fair comparison.
Its almost like comparing Corolla to Echo.
Also you are taking highway travel alone for mileage, but most of the people do 50 : 50 for highway and city and drive only 12,000 - 15,000 miles / year which means 10-12 years to do the 150,000 miles.
Better work out the TCO of both Camry & Corolla and take the average and then compare that figure with the TCO of Prius-2004. Now you will get the ROI.
Lastly with a hatch gate, we can shove in a big TV box / washer / small piece of furniture into Prius-2004 and we cant do this in Camry / Corolla.
> depreciation hit on your 60,000 mile Prius
Taking the data from a *FIRST* year model sold here in a market that as a whole doesn't have a clue how hybrids work is hardly a representation of what to actually expect years from now.
JOHN
the Vancouver area, so far:
1: bought at the New Westminster dealership, serviced in Langley. White Rock dealership is also selling them.
2: West Coast Toyota (Maple Ridge) has options and pricing info for the Canadian 2004s. (more info than what's on the Toyota Canada web site...)
good luck!
Still ... if anyone knows of cheaper cars that have these three features, I'd appreciate the info, thanks.
___From the many discussions on the 01/02 Prius’, most are still purchased at MSRP. I was glad to see someone located a Prius for Invoice in the Virginia area but asking the many Prius experts in this forum, the best I have heard of was $500 under MSRP. With the 04 being produced in limited quantities, what do you think the price is going to be in 6 months? The older much less desirable 01/02 Prius went for MSRP over its entire production so why wouldn’t the 04? In the case of the Corolla, $200 or less over invoice is more common than a full MSRP purchase in my experience.
___As for regional differences, I might also assume both vehicles are affected by the temp’s in their respective locale. I just received 41.3 mpg over a 622 mile in total commute in the Corolla and the A/C was on 80% over this last stretch. I would assume John’s 01 Prius would receive 48 on the hwy under similar conditions?
___A BMW 325? Comparing a BMW is not in the cards. Has the Prius ever been marketed as a sports sedan? An advanced economy car yes but a sports sedan, no? With 12.5 seconds to 60, I think we all know the answer to that question.
___I don’t know if Geek Chic will be the answer to sell Hybrid’s for Toyota. Eventually, it all comes down to TCO for the type of car it is. In the case of the Prius and Corolla, the 01 to 01 direct comparisons show which costs more. The average family in the US cannot really afford a $20,500 + economy car but can afford a $13,000 - $15,000 one. When the Hybrid’s cost just $17 to $18K, I will be in line for one as well.
___And to wrap, I didn’t create the initial Corolla/Prius comparison post. Once posted however, I wanted to make sure some facts vs. myths were brought to light.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Thank you for the welcome ... I usually don’t get too involved in the Edmunds forums given the format lacks VBB features similar to acuramdx.org where I normally post.
___Edmunds has a great spec guide for all to compare the differences between the various Toyota automobiles. The real reason I wrote off the Echo was that it received the same hwy mileage as the Corolla with much less performance, less luxury, and far fewer amenities.
___Here is some more info as to the sizes of the 03/04 Corolla, 04 Prius, and 04 Camry.
*****************************************************************
03/04 Corolla
Exterior:
Length: 178.3 in. Width: 66.9 in. Height: 57.7 in. Wheel Base: 102.4 in. Curb Weight: 2590 lbs.
Interior:
Front Head Room: 39.1 in. Front Hip Room: 51.9 in. Front Shoulder Room: 53.1 in.
Rear Head Room: 37.1 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 53.5 in. Rear Hip Room: 46.2 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.3 in. Rear Leg Room: 35.4 in. Luggage Capacity: 13.6 cu. ft.
Maximum Cargo Capacity: 14 cu. ft. Maximum Seating: 5
*****************************************************************
04 Prius
Exterior:
Length: 175 in. Width: 67.9 in. Height: 58.1 in. Wheel Base: 106.3 in. Curb Weight: 2890 lbs.
Interior:
Front Head Room: 39.1 in. Front Hip Room: 51 in. Front Shoulder Room: 55.3 in.
Rear Head Room: 37.1 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 53 in. Rear Hip Room: 51.6 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.9 in. Rear Leg Room: 38.6 in. Luggage Capacity: 16.1 cu. ft.
Maximum Cargo Capacity: 16 cu. ft. Maximum Seating: 5
*****************************************************************
04 Camry
Exterior:
Length: 189.2 in. Width: 70.7 in. Height: 57.9 in. Wheel Base: 107.1 in. Curb Weight: 3142 lbs.
Interior: Front Head Room: 39.2 in. Front Hip Room: 54.4 in. Front Shoulder Room: 57.5 in.
Rear Head Room: 38.3 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 56.7 in. Rear Hip Room: 54.1 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.6 in. Rear Leg Room: 37.8 in. Luggage Capacity: 16.7 cu. ft.
Maximum Cargo Capacity: 17 cu. ft. Maximum Seating: 5
*****************************************************************
___The first thing most should notice is the size of the Camry in comparison to any of the above. Except for head room and exterior height, the Camry is in a whole other league with greater room in almost every dimension by comparison. Saying the 04 Prius is a mid size car is rather cagey given it’s the Hatchback that receives its midsize classification because of its cubic ft more than likely vs. the actual size of the interior/exterior as shown above. What would a Corolla hatchback be rated as? The current Corolla is already 3” longer than the 04 Prius and only 1” thinner?
___Second, the 04 Prius received a large bump in rear leg room probably? due to the hatchback design. With the 03/04 Corolla being longer by 3.3” yet having lesser rear leg room, that seems like a reasonable assumption.
___Jchan2, I am looking at all the next generation Hybrid’s for my next vehicle. Being a Landscaper, a Green machine (ULEV-II/SULEV/PZEV) does have its benefits and I cannot wait ... Our 03 MDX is rated as a ULEV II and given the mileage I receive from it, I am very happy as you can well imagine
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Many Acura MDX owners including myself are following the RX400 info as it’s released. Unfortunately, the RX is a much smaller vehicle in comparison to the MDX so most are waiting for the MDX Hybrid instead. It will probably be released in 05 instead of 04 however
___As for the Corolla, I already own an 03 LE w/ Auto and won’t be looking for a new one for another 200,000 – 240,000 miles or more ... Unless a real deal comes along that is
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Insight
Civic Hybrid
Odyssey????? (06-07)
MDX????? (05-06)
NSX Replacement: (06-07)
RDX (Luxury, active lifestyle CRV) (06 at the earliest)
Here's Toyota:
Prius
Sienna Hybrid (05,06)
RX400H
Whatever Toyota plans, I'm sure there's more.
Lexus RX400H
Toyota Prius
> type of car it is.
Since when? Solara is a specialty model of Camry. Why can't Prius be thought of the same way, especially since it already fits the criteria?
Personally, that's the way I prefer it too. The hybrid versions of Camry & Corolla will likely be toned down quite a bit, concealing the technology rather than giving you all the goodies like Prius does.
> Camry is in a whole other league with greater
> room in almost every dimension by comparison
Ahh... both front & back leg room is *GREATER* in Prius. And dropping the seats it Prius gives in much *MORE* cargo space, especially when you consider how much more practical the extra height is.
> The current Corolla is already 3” longer than
> the 04 Prius
The hybrid system takes less room than a priustoric engine in a traditional vehicle, so of course it shorter.
JOHN
___The 04 Prius is an economy car isn’t it? That being said, I don’t see any other Toyota models available in a hatchback. I would love to own the 04 Prius or an 04 Corolla hatchback or station wagon w/ the Prius’ 1.5 L engine alone without the electrics and LCD for $15K or less given that is ~ what it should cost minus the Synergy drive? 51 or more mpg w/ SULEV ratings (on the hwy anyway?) and at a cost all of America could afford.
___The Camry is bigger in almost every other dimension by quite some margin. If you think otherwise, your 01 Prius is only a bit smaller than the 04 Prius and ~ the size of the Corolla (interior only). Now go sit in a Camry and you know it’s a larger vehicle. Remember when they made the Corolla and Camry station wagon’s? Even an economy car like the Ford Focus station wagon has a maximum cargo capacity of 73 cu. ft. w/ Luggage capacity of 35 (double that of the 04 Prius). Kind of makes the 04 Camry and Prius look like clown cars but in reality, we know it’s still a compact and it isn’t even a comparable automobile given its poor build quality and much lower EPA mileage estimates.
___Something else I wanted to add to the conversation as well. Given the new Lexus LS430 supposedly has a Cd of .25, why doesn’t the new Prius or any of the other Toyota economy cars have an even better Cd? That new Lexus flagship looks like a brick in comparison?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Clearly, a quality comparison is needed. Just looking at the fabric alone you'll see that Prius is much higher quality... not something you'd find in other "economy" cars.
> you know it’s a larger vehicle
How? The numbers don't support that.
> Given the new Lexus LS430 supposedly has a Cd of .25,
> why doesn’t the new Prius or any of the other Toyota
> economy cars have an even better Cd?
Check the price tag. Lexus is owned by Toyota. Better costs you more.
JOHN
Well, considering you can load the thing up with DVD Nav, HID headlamps, 9-speaker JBL audio w/6-disc CD changer, keyless entry, Homelink universal remote, VSC, etc. and, as a result, run the MSRP close to $26k, I'd have to say, "not exactly".
___Good Point. Do you remember the Cadillac Cimarron? A lux economy car that was just a Chevy Cavalier underneath with a few more luxury amenities?
___Adding any/all of those options to an economy car based Prius still makes it an economy car with that many more options. Should Toyota start adding all of the above to the Echo and Corolla as well? Would HID’s and a NAVI setup make the Corolla something more than an economy car? Than again, you can load up a Corolla with a Sun Roof, Leather, and Security System making it an Economy car with even more options as well.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
One can get leather (such as it is), sunroofs, and security systems on a number of, well, let's say low-priced cars. It's much more difficult, though, to find economy cars that offer the likes of HID's, NAV's, and premium audio systems; those features are (usually) only available on more expensive vehicles.
My point is that Toyota seems to be marketing the Prius to a somewhat different audience than buyers of plain vanilla economy cars; there's some kind of prestige factor going on here.
i agreed with funpilot. i didn't purchase my '02 prius because of the ROI factors. i traded in a '00 mercedes wagon because i hated sitting in traffic for 45-60 minutes each way on my comuting route (washington dc rush). i bought the prius because i could take the HOV lane alone and cut down my commute time to 15-20 minutes each way.
"The size class for cars is determined by measuring the interior volume as described below. ....
CARS
Two-Seaters Cars designed to seat primarily two adults
Sedans:
MInicompact Less than 85 cubic feet of passenger and luggage volume
Subcompact Between 85 and 99 cubic feet of passenger and luggage volume
Compact Between 100 and 109 cubic feet of passenger and luggage volume
Mid-Size Between 110 and 119 cubic feet of passenger and luggage volume
Large 120 or more cubic feet of passenger and luggage volume
STATION WAGONS
Small Less than 130 cubic feet of passenger and cargo volume
Mid-Size Between 130 and 159 cubic feet of passenger and cargo volume
Large 160 or more cubic feet of passenger and cargo volume
....
The passenger volume reported on [fueleconomy.gov] is an estimate of the size of the passenger compartment. The luggage volume is the size of the trunk or, in station wagons and hatchbacks, the cargo space behind the second seat.
....
The interior volume is measured using SAE Recommended Practice J1100 as per EPA Fuel economy regulations, reg. 40 CFR 600.315-82 "Classes of Comparable Automobiles." Automobile manufacturers calculate the interior volume of their vehicles and submit this information to EPA.
The SAE procedure calculates interior volume from many height, width and length dimensions inside the vehicle, including head room, foot room, seat width, etc. The trunk volume is typically determined by putting many suitcase sized boxes in the trunk and adding up the volume of each box.
"
* bigger than Corolla-2004 in nearly 5 factors like Front shoulder room, Front leg room, etc
* Smaller than Corolla in 2 factors - Front hip room & Rear shoulder room
* and same in 2 factors - Front head room & Rear head room
In exterior - Prius-2004 is short in length but more in width - so 1:1.
With this we can come to the conclusion that Prius-2004 is bigger than Corolla-2004.
You should take into account that we can put a 25 inch TV box, washer, etc in Prius-2004, but not in Camry.
3 days ago I bought a coffee table (4 feet wide), it just did not go into the trunk of my olds-cutlass which is slightly bigger than Camry.
Had it been Prius-2004, it should have moved like a piece of cake.
___I don’t remember saying the 03/04 Corolla was bigger than the 04 Prius in every dimension?
___Given Mrvadeboncoeur’s post, the 03/04 Corolla and 01-03 Prius are compact cars. Not just economy cars?
___Secondly, did anyone notice the EPA rating for station wagons? Why not Hatchbacks? This is my point about size. If you add a hatchback to a Corolla or even the 01/02 Prius, it would be considered a midsize automobile and we all know that this is not the case. The Camry is a midsize car given its width. Go sit in one. You feel the room from side so to side and there is a big difference. The 04 Prius was rated a midsize car only because of the hatch. If I had the ability to purchase the Corolla or you to purchase the 01/02 Prius with a hatch, would you or I receive the extra 6.1 and 9.6 (cu ft) respectively so that our cars would be considered Mid-size? You bet they would and it would not change the fact that our cars are not any wider than they are today and are still compact economy cars. What if the 04 Prius was a std. 4 Dr. instead of the Hatchback or if they offered both? Would it be considered a Midsize automobile? I am not taking away for the hatch because I think it’s a useful feature. My first new car was an 83 Chevy Chevette with a hatch and I hauled all kinds of stuff in it given its utility. I just never considered it a midsize car even though it probably would have been rated that way given the EPA definitions of today?
___Here is some interesting info for everyone about size. Since someone in the last 2 pages mentioned the Toyota Solara which is built off the same platform as the Camry, I guess it’s a compact as well ...
03 Prius
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 88.6/Luggage Capacity 11.8 (cu ft)
03/04 Corolla:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 90.3/Luggage Capacity 13.6 (cu ft)
04 Prius:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 96.2/Luggage Capacity 16.1 (cu ft)
04 Camry:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 101.7/Luggage Capacity 16.7 (cu ft)
04 Camry Solara:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 92.1/Luggage Capacity 13.8 (cu ft)
___Now lets consider who would or should purchase this automobile. If you are looking at the Green qualities of this vehicle, it would include everyone! Dependence on foreign oil supply would vanish and the quality of our air would improve dramatically. The problem here is that Toyota has to make it affordable to the masses or it won’t make a difference. At $20,500, it isn’t and with TCO taken into account, it is even less affordable than the Corolla in particular. What I would hope Toyota would do is make the 04 Prius’ hybrid power train optional. Since this vehicle is ~ the same size as the Corolla, but uses a smaller std. engine, it should cost slightly less money. In other words, give back the extra $3,000 - $6,000 to the consumer and leave the Electrics off. I don’t know if a 93 HP motor can take the 04 Prius without electrics to 60 miles per hour in 12.5 seconds similar to the 01/02 Prius though? On the hwy, it would be as green or slightly greener than the 04 Prius except in assist or stealth mode which cannot continue for any reasonable length of time. In the city, it wouldn’t but it should rate better than the ULEV status of the Corolla given the new 1.5 L IC engine technology Toyota has been advertising? Even our 03 Acura MDX is rated ULEV II given the 2 Cats the exhaust passes through. At $15,000 or less, it would make it into the hands of many more than $20,500 + where it currently lists. Even easier as less expensive ... just place the Prius’ 1.5 L IC engine in the Corolla, make it a hatch to hopefully achieve the same Cd and call it a midsize car with 51 + mpg on the hwy!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___As an edit to the above last 2 sentences.
Even easier and less expensive ... just place the Prius’ 1.5 L IC engine in the Corolla, make it a hatch to hopefully achieve the same Cd, charge the same or even less for it given the loss of the std. much more powerful 1.8 L engine, and call it a midsize car that achieves 51 + mpg on the hwy! I would buy that and so would many more Americans and Canadian’s given the initial price and TCO being much closer to what most can afford.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Ahh, the Echo *ALREADY* has a similiar engine to Prius. It is smaller & lighter vehicle, yet still doesn't achieve MPG as good.
In other words, the hybrid system offers an advantage on the highway too.
JOHN
____And how does the 04 Prius’ 1.5 L receive 51 mpg on the hwy vs. the 39 of the Echo? Is it the electrics assisting at all times? For most of the time? For even a small amount of the time? On the hwy, the electrics may as well be passive unless passing or the chargers (generators)/batteries/motors will be just another drag on the IC engine. Energy conversion is not free. It’s the IC engine on the hwy that is receiving 51 mpg, not the electrics. If the new 1.5L Prius engine’s 93 HP can get the Prius to 60 in 12.5 seconds without the electrics, you will receive the acceleration of the 01-03 Prius’ without the electrics weight or expense and the Prius’ initial as well as TCO will go way down to what most can afford today. Tell me if your own Prius uses assist on the hwy even 10% of the time? If it does, either your battery is going dead during that time or the Prius has a problem since converting mechanical to electrical is not free. With the IC engine having to provide the mechanical energy to keep the Prius at speed AND the mechanical energy for the charger to charge the battery packs while on the hwy, you are looking at unnecessary losses and even lower mpg than if your Prius didn’t have electrics at all.
___As far as the Echo is concerned, even the early 03 Corolla’s 1.8 L 130 HP engine w/ Automatic had an EPA estimated 39 Hwy (now 38) yet had almost 25% more HP than the Echo’s 1.5? I didn’t mention the Echo engine because there is something wrong with it. Its mileage for a lot less power and smaller size vehicle was the reason I skipped over it in the first place and purchased the much more powerful yet just as efficient and larger sized Corolla instead.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
> not the electrics.
That's not the case.
You really need to study how the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) system works. There's vital data that will change your perception of how the efficiency is achieved.
*YES*, the electric system is active while on the highway.
The Planetary-CVT takes advantage of certain RPM efficiencies, which eliminates any loss from momentum to electricity conversion. So you end up with stored-energy to consume afterward.
100% of the time you are on the highway using the engine, this electricity creation occurs. YES, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! So whenever extra thrust is needed, the motor is used instead, which is much more efficient than the engine. And when the battery-pack is topped-off, the engine throttles down automatically and the motor takes over for a little bit. ALL OF THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE with just an engine-only system.
Get it?
JOHN
___Who am I kidding. The 1.5L Prius only outputs 67 HP and with the mods needed to up it to match that of the 1.3L of the Civic Hybrid (85, not 93), it won’t receive the 47/51 Manual/CVT MPG that I would have hoped for. Maybe 47 but not 51
___John, as for 100% of the time charging, that sounds out of the ordinary but you are a Synergy drive expert. Once the batteries reach 100% of capacity, the Generator is idling yet you are cruising at hwy speeds. Any charging and use of the electrics at hwy speed appears to be a waste no matter how efficiently the generator/battery/motor system is given the not totally free conversion of mechanical to electrical energy and back again. The Electrics still appear to me to be a waste on the hwy when assist is not needed which had better be almost 100% of the time. Than again, I have read it only takes ~ 30 HP to maintain hwy speed for an average size automobile. If that is the case, even 67 HP wouldn’t be needed except to charge a battery and make up for the city type underpowered periods when you really need more than 67 HP to accelerate from a stand still in an adequate amount of time.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
This fact is also important when considering the question "why didn't toyota just use the Prius engine w/o the electric motor and battery to make it cheaper?" Part of the answer is that some power is lost with the Atkinson/Miller Cycle as I stated above. Also, the Prius engine's RPM's are limited to 4500 RPM for the sake of being able to use lighter components...which also increases engine efficiency. Limiting the RPM's means even less power available if needed.
So, in order to give the prius acceleration that meets our expectations, it needs stored electrical engergy from a battery too. The battery can then be recharged any time you the car is just cruising...when only 20-30 hp is needed to overcome friction/air resistance.
Here is another reason for the electric motor and battery: the Toyota hybrid can on the electric motor alone at low speeds. This ability to run at low speeds without the gas engine helps save fuel in congested areas.
I've found this site helpful:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm
This site talks about the atkinson/miller cylce and lots more:
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/0102AUNCWFDM.html
___I was looking over the THS II system works page over at Toyota ( http://www.toyota.co.jp/IRweb/special_rep/thsII/ths2_4.html ) and did see that Toyota publish the following:
Driving under normal conditions:
Engine power is divided by the power split device. Some of the power turns the generator, which in turn drives the motor. (B)
The rest of the power drives the wheels directly. (C)
Power allocation is controlled to maximize efficiency.
___I see it but I don’t understand it. Why would you go through the loss of changing mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical when the IC engine is supplying the entire mechanical load for highway driving? It doesn’t make sense to take the hit?
___I have also read more on the Atkinson cycle engine. It sounds like it is ~ 25% more efficient than a std. Otto cycle given you are not compressing air on the upstroke until the piston travels almost ½ way up the cylinder wall (variable depending on load). This is done by leaving the intake valves open for a longer period of time while the piston is traveling up the cylinder and pushing some of the mixture back into the intake manifold. I have no idea how the engine magicians control the mixture with this backflow and new charge mixed up but it appears to work well with the many published articles about it on the web. The only negative is something to do with lower end torque losses which the electric’s come in to save the day. The more I read about this, the more I am thinking a diesel similar to the VW TDI’s might be the best bet for total efficiency (high miles/gallon and great low end torque for acceleration) as well as inexpensive and low TCO’s no matter the size of vehicle. The emissions problems as well as low sulfur diesel fuel being made available across the North American continent will have to be taken care of first however. VW’s themselves are to expensive and to low in quality (latest JD Power survey) to consider IMHO but at least some are buying them and the efficiency is most certainly refreshing.
___Something for all ... I saw this on a completed auction on E-Bay this afternoon. An 03 Prius with just 4417 miles went for just $16,527. At $16,500 +, it is worth purchasing for Initial and TCO IMHO. There must have been something wrong with it but I don’t know what it was if anything? You can see it here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2431454445&category=43925
___ As an edit, Kpoeppel, I have just read up on a few articles about the Atkinson cycle as posted also. Sorry to overrun your post.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
But the Camry uses almost twice as much gas. Score one for the Prius (how much of an advantage depends on future gas prices).
But.. any decent mechanic can work on a Camry. A Snap-on tool can read the computer codes. With the Prius, however, only the dealer will be able to do engine work. So repair/maintenance work will cost more, right? Maybe a lot more? (Anybody agree with/disagree with this reasoning?)
Then there's the battery-pack question.
So... it seems from the above that the Camry is the better deal economically. The Prius would be more emotionally appealing to me, but let's ignore that for now.
Thanks, and any comments appreciated.
You are correct, there is a hit from the conversion. However, the engine is running at an optimal RPM, something a transmission without power-split capability cannot accommodate. That saves gas, which offsets the hit.
So despite the conversion, the result is a net gain.
JOHN
> can read the computer codes. With the Prius, however,
> only the dealer will be able to do engine work. So
> repair/maintenance work will cost more, right?
You are missing the point.
A purpose of the entirely new design is to increase reliability.
The Planetary-CVT is a significant improvement over the traditional automatic transmission. It is more robust and actually a more simple design.
The electric motor doesn't require any maintenance... EVER! Brushless AC motors are an engineering marvel. All you have to do is routinely (every 30,000 miles) change the coolant, just like you do with antifreeze. That's it!
The engine itself is similar to other engines, other than it doesn't get used as much. Since Prius drives with the engine off sometimes, and the startup process is quite a bit more gentle than traditional starters can deliver, and the engine doesn't have to pump the A/C system (since it's electric), maintenance should be less often. As a result, the hybrid engine should last longer than traditional engines.
JOHN
___Since the auction is over, I emailed the buyer and asked if the transaction went smooth or if there were any problems. Since it has only been 4 days, I don’t know if anything has happened given no feedback was given by the buyer or seller so far. Not that this means anything either but the seller’s nick is Jimnortontoyota from Tulsa OK. I checked Toyota.com and sure enough, there is a Toyota dealer by the name of Jim Norton in Tulsa. I don’t know if it’s BS or not but that is what was listed. If it was a Toyota dealer, they can’t be too excited about getting rid of it given it is still under warranty and practically brand new? Dealers don’t take losses for the heck of it? I just don’t know why it went for such a low price is all? No Reserve so it was a fast sale none the less.
___Brozhnik, the Camry probably comes out on top against the Prius in the initial (depending on how you load it up) and TCO as well but I truly believe the Camry is in another league given it is a true mid-size sedan instead of a “work around the definition” midsize like the 04 Prius supposedly is. Even still, the 03/04 Camry’s receive 32 on the Hwy w/ the 4 banger and have 157 HP on tap! It’s a great car for sure.
___John, optimal or not, I remember IC based Civic’s from Honda not that long ago that received 50 + on the hwy without electrics. The current 85 HP 1.3 L V-Tec from the Honda Civic Hybrid uses the engine only for Hwy cruise yet receives 51 on the hwy with a manual and 47 with the CVT. From the Honda Civic Hybrid pages: “The engine maintains your speed when cruising. The motor functions as a generator and charges the battery pack while cruising or decelerating.” This comes from their 1.3 L VTEC engine in a 2750 # Civic. If this motor alone can achieve 12.5 seconds to 60, what’s the point of the additional $3 to $6,000 dollars and who knows how many additional pounds for the Hybrid’s motor, drive train, generator, and battery pack? As for the CVT, no one really knows if that belt is going to last beyond 150,000 to 200,000 miles like an economy cars transmission should? Great idea but the steel reinforced CVT belt(s) are still an unknown. I would have to agree with you on the engine longevity issue except for Hwy users like myself in which case the engine will be running all the time albeit at a steady RPM (possibly?) which enhances longevity. Who knows?
___Daina, have you seen or read up on the Oil Sands in your country? If someone ever comes up with a way to pull that oil for less than the current ~ $13.00 per BBL., your country will be far richer than Saudi, Iraq, and Kuwait combined
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I checked the actual web site of the dealer and, sure enough, there it was.......for $18,995!
The deal smacks of, well, weird. First, the auction was expressly made "subject to prior sale" which, I think as we all can surmise, could have been "arranged" had the final bid been unacceptable to the seller. Secondly, the terms are that the "customer will pay for shipping and handling" with the winning bidder to call for "final details". Even if the "customer" were to show up in person at the dealership, what's the going rate for "handling" on a used Prius and what, in fact, are these "final details"?