The Prius and hybrids are a bit of an anamoly. Their rating for the city is higher than the highway, mostly due to the hybrid design and electric assist. I found highway mileage was close to the EPA numbers (49-52mpg). "city" was a bit of a challenge though. But, I find this true of any car I have ever driven around DC. Driving roads at 65mph with stoplights and accelerating hard from every light will not achieve EPA numbers. In a true city drive, I have never acheived EPA numbers. But when I catch some green lights and get a "highway" cycle going, sure I'll get above the EPA "city" mileage. So with the Prius, accelerating hard and cruising at 65mph won't acheieve top mileage.
Also, I've always skimmed C&D's (car & driver) actual versus EPA ratings...those guys never get EPA mileage. They dog those cars out everytime.
But with all due respect, dudley, your instance doesn't apply to everyone. How many cars have you driven? How do you drive? What kind of fuel do you use? What PSI are your tires? What kind of climate do you live in? What type of oil do you use? how often do you maintain your car?
As you can see, there are many, many variables to account for in this whole EPA game.
FWIW, DC area uses oxygenated fuel during certain months. We also might run the A/C during those times too. Oxygenated fuel has always yielded much lower MPG in my cars. With the compressor running and oxygenated fuel, I'd be lucky to get 21mpg out of my Audi A4 1.8T. That's highway/city combined (EPA would suggest 25 mpg in this case)
It is even better than that. The car uses electric to bring the RPMs up on the ICE before it fires. So, the oil is already spread before pressure is applied and the firing does not jolt anything. Also, high RPMs are avoided because the car uses the electric to handle sudden acceleration and ramps up the ICE RPMs more smoothly. Lastly, add up the hundreds of hours the ICE is not running at all, my guess is that enegine wear will be less than a traditional car, not more.
You have to add 28% to EPA highway numbers just to get the values that the EPA calculates. It is hard not to beat EPA highway numbers if you are truely driving on the highway. Of course excessive speed, having even a small amount of city driving, short trips etc. will hurt mileage. I can't imagine any car not getting EPA highway numbers during a long gentle highway trip at a reasonable speed 65-70.
Also keep in mind that the EPA test is not with cruise control. It involves slowing and speeding up and only averages 48 mph.
My Integra is only 28 EPA highway, but can get 40 mpg going 60, and even going 85 will still get 31 or 32. Also well over EPA for Taurus (by the smallest amount - auto trannies are favored by the test), Corolla, Passat, Oasis, Sentra (up to 48 mpg), Scirocco (up to 45 mpg), G-20, and more. All were manuals except the Taurus and Oasis.
A newspaper reporter is looking to interview owners of hybrid vehicles who live in the midwest. Bonus points awarded to Michiganders who drive hybrids and respond to this query. Please send daytime contact info and a line about your vehicle choice to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, May 21, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
A newspaper reporter is looking to interview owners of hybrid vehicles who live in the midwest. Bonus points awarded to Michiganders who drive hybrids and respond to this query. Please send daytime contact info and a line about your vehicle choice to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, May 21, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
But, what other system requires the ICE to ramp immediately from a dead stop to full throttle as may be required when the Prius is operating under electric drive alone? How has Toyota addressed this added stress?
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Got my 04 in January, put 6k on it,2k on a road trip. Average 48-51mpg, no matter how I drive it. Love the car, especially at the gas pump! Couple of issues I wonder if others have figured out: the hard plastic interior on dash, doors, etc.seems to marr and scratch easy - any suggestions on dealing with that? Also, I am 6' w/long legs, and the seat doesn't go quite far enough back, esp. on a long trip. Any aftermarket solutions, or other ideas?
I remember reading somewhere that they had the tracks adjusted aft so that the seat would better suit taller drivers. Not sure if was an '04, but in theory it could work. It would probably be expensive and it may compromise some of the electrical connections. I suppose during your test drive you didn't notice that you were uncomfortable. Anyone else have any solutions/ideas?
A reporter is looking for anyone who has had a bad experience trying to buy a new Prius from a dealership. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info and a line about what happened no later than 5pm Pacific on Friday, May 28, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
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A reporter is looking for anyone who has had a bad experience trying to buy a new Prius from a dealership. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info and a line about what happened no later than 5pm Pacific on Friday, May 28, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
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This was on the news tonight. The Mayor in New Haven, CT is giving up his black Lincoln Navigator(8 miles to the gallon he says) for everyday use and has purchased a Prius- Silver. Mmm... wonder if he planned this a LONG time ago or if the dealer had one and thought this would be good publicity? I have no idea if Toyo dealers around here have any in stock or not. The national news says 8 month wait. I don't know.
Because I drive across the country often, the 100 miles to next gas thing occurs with some frequency. I team-drive in shifts of 250-300 miles at speeds that sometimes reach over 80 MPH (in, e.g. Oklahoma) with clearly lower gas mileage. The conservative gas gauge can cause me to stop for gas before the shift ends. With the extra three gallons, I would not have to stop until end of shift.
These may seem like small things to many of you. However, how many of you have made a couple of dozen coast-to-coast driving trips? Lost efficiency means lost sleep and a more dangerous next day on the road.
I have read a couple of posts about driving the Prius until empty. My dealer's service dept told me that I would have to reprime the pump if this happened and that would be expensive.
I am trying to get enough information to make my cross-country drives more efficient in my 2004 Prius, which I really like. Apparently, the 3-gallon reserve (when pump icon comes on) is reasonably reliable according to many posters.
If I rely on this and it is inaccurate at the wrong time, do I risk expensive service?
I've used John's formula with no problems. Simply take your multidisplay average MPG times 9. I've always been able to make this range when necessary before refueling. This works even when the gas gauge seems to be a little out of sync with my own estimates of remaining fuel.
When I drive across the country I never let the gauge (on any car) get below 1/3. You never know what is going to happen.
Several years ago I was driving from SF to Atlanta and was somewhere between Flagstaff and Albequerque. It was in the middle of July and I had my mother and my two dogs in the car. A tanker truck jackknifed a few miles ahead and we were forced to sit, parked on the freeway, with no way of getting off or turning around, for 4 hours. In the middle of the desert, in the middle of the summer, in the middle of the day with 100+ degree temps it was not an option NOT to run the car for at least 15 minutes every 1/2 hour. I would have been SOL if I had been intent on letting my fuel get as low as possible before refueling.
I placed my order with the Klamath Falls, Oregon dealer on the 8th of May, was told that there were two people ahead of me. He called me three days later and told me that it was outfitted with a #9 package and the other two people had dropped out of the waiting. I picked it up two days ago, so a total wait of 10 days.
This morning (May 22) there was a front page article in the Arizona Daily Star headlined as in the title above.
It stated that Toyota and Honda are facing a number of angry buyers who have found the cars' fuel efficiency falls short of advertised claims.
The article also states that the disclaimer "actual mileage may vary" has never been truer than with these vehicles.
What many buyers do not understand is the method that EPA uses to determine city/highway fuel economy. That it is largely a function of how the driver operates the vehicle and the driving conditions that determine what the fuel consumption per mile (gas mileage) will be.
Those of us who own hybrid vehicles have come to realize that there can be quite a variation in fuel economy depending on how the car is driven and the driving conditions.
I hope the EPA changes their (outdated?) testing procedures and that the automobile manufacturers advertise more realistic fuel economy numbers.
My "indicated" fuel economy has been 44-46 mpg for a 44 mile round-trip from my home to where I work. Two-thirds on interstate and one-third on city streets. I recently drove from Tucson to El Paso on Interstate 10 and got 51 mpg for the highway part of the trip. I10 is relatively flat and there was no wind blowing.
I am satisfied with the fuel economy, but I also bought the car for other reasons. All of which have have been discussed here, so I will not go into them again.
Also...the size of the vehicle is perfect for my family's needs. My wife does not require a Ford Explorer or Hummer to go back and forth to the mall.
Hi gang, On a recent tank I've averaged a measly 38 mpg. I say measly tongue-in-cheek compared to my previous vehicle, a 1984 Corvette (15/20 mpg). My latest tankful was up around 48 mpg, which made me smile. As we've all witnessed, driving conditions DO influence mpg so we shouldn't get too alarmed if we don't meet EPA mpg figures. I got stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic doing 10-15 mpg for about 5 miles and according to the on-dash readout, I got over 70 mpg!! I usually use the incremental mpg reading (5 min intervals) screen when I drive because the other page of that screen (showing the wheels turning w/instant mpg varying every mile) is misleading. Remember that ANY effort to keep the environment cleaner and save gas is good for the planet and therefore good for us all. We should consider ourselvelves pioneers. Average gas price at name brand stations here is $2.35/gal. Thanks, Rich
The EPA fuel economy tests are done starting out with the tank and the batteries "full", and ends with both "empty".
False results on the high side.
But I have very little doubt that slightly aggressive drivers will have relatively poor fuel economy for highway cruising where the major, or maybe only, source of battery recharge is via the ICE.
It would be extremely difficult for the EPA tests to end with a Prius battery at zero unless the tests involve running the car up a mountainside or at very high speeds continuously.
I've run out of gas in my '04 Prius; it was in January and I was too lazy and cold to check tire pressure, so gas mileage dropped to 40 mpg. At first, the engine had intermittent surges of power as the gas ran out, then all the idiot lights (idiot in this case referring to me) on the dash came on as I lost pretty much all power. Luckily, I was on a major beltway, with lots of momentum to coast to the exit, then was able to drive (very slowly) a few blocks to a gas station on electric power. After refueling, I went back on the highway, but the battery had no juice left, and the gas engine by itself is pretty anemic. I took a few minutes for the battery to recharge. No, I didn't take it to the dealer afterwards, and it has run fine for a few months, but I certainly wouldn't advise it. A few more blocks to the gas station and I would have been pushing.
Can you recall how many more miles where you able to drive the Prius from the time the fuel indicator started to blink? I once had a situation where I was able to drive 20 more miles to a gas station after the fuel gauge started blinking.
"full" is when you're cruising and the system stops charging the batteries because they're "topped off". "empty" is when you're cruising and the batteries are now low enough to begin a rechage cycle.
I placed my order for my Prius with package #3 on 18 Dec '03 from Lorensen Toyota in Old Saybrook, CT. My salesman tells me now that I am #8 on the list of 20 still waiting. Nobody seems to be dropping out. He said that Connecticut got shortchanged on deliveries. California and Florida seem to have gotten most of the allotments. He says that I will probably get a 2005. Does anybody have any information on the 2005's. Will there be any changes in price or option packages. I have to believe that there will be no changes in the car itself.
May 15, 2004, I purchased my new 2004 Prius -BC package (had no choice on option package, since this was the only Prius on the lot for sale).
Enjoyed my car (loved the navigation system) for two days, when on the third day while driving, I received a "VSC" problem message. I immediately took it to the dealer where I bought it, and thats where it has stayed for 2 weeks now. Today is May 25, and tomorrow they think they should have it back to me.
The VSC problem message seems to have been only the tip of iceberg. Diagnostics unvealed 6 more issues. All this had lead the dealer replacing the trans-axle and inverter, both high dollar items. I was told the inverter was shorted, and the transaxle caused it... I hope this is just a fluke and replacing the transaxle/inverter will fix it.
I test drove a 2004 Prius today...very impressed with the car. The dealer says there is about a 4 to 5 month wait. I pointed to the sticker price and asked how close they came to that number. He told me they don't charge anything over the sticker price. Looks like there's a Prius in my future.
I liked the story about Oregon cu who had 10 day wait !! I ordered mine in Nov , silver and #9, (#9 cause all they offered at the time was #1 or #9 and I wanted Smart Entry and CD changer). Well I was planning on getting it in the spring ESPECIALLY now with gas at 2.30/gal but I went from #7 on the list in March to #6 now?? Looks like this Newburgh NY dealer not even getting 1 car a month? Guess I'm not getting mine till Sept or prob a 2005 model. What a hit Toyota has with this Hybrid! I don't even see any on the road up by me .
Now I don't feel so bad. You may get yours before me since I think they want to sell the # 9 packages. I think they make more profit on the full packages. Did you get a letter from Toyota about the $300 price increase. If you ordered your car before March 1 you will get the $300 back.
I am sorry to hear about your plight. Make sure you document everything and if you continue to have problems, you may have remedies if your state has a lemon law. Every manufacturer puts out a lemon now and then, hopefully yours is not one of them.
Seeing your posting, just as I was about to give up hope, was quite a gift. I've been on the waiting list at Molle Toyota in Kansas City for one month, and today they told me that the salesman actually FORGOT to put my name on the list. Strange, charging my credit card for the $500 deposit didn't slip his mind. Grrrr. After some pointed questions, a saleswoman called me back and told me I was No. 41 on the list, and that they delivered two Priuses last month. They refuse to be pinned down on even a ballpark estimate of when I'll get a vehicle. I'm not impressed by this dealership's performance. So which dealership told you there was a 5-month wait? And, more broadly, can anyone offer advice and strategies for scoring a Prius more quickly? I'm willing to travel quite far around the Midwest. I prefer one with package No. 7, and I'm not too picky about the color. I'll not pay a penny over MSRP, however.
I was at Olathe Toyota. He had said that the waiting list had been 5 months, but that Toyota was bringing a second line online and the wait would most likely be about 3 months. I drive pretty much exclusivly in town...maybe drive the freeway one day per week. Currently I have to fill up my car twice a week at $25 per pop. I figure that even if I get "only" 50 mpg in city driving, I can drive two and from work the entire week on 2 gallons of gas.
i saw on cbs the oher night that consumer reports tested the prius and civic hybrid and said the prius only got 35mpg in the city and the civic hybrid 26 mpg in the city. Are people really getting this mileage?
They sent out notices to owners requesting negative comments. When a few of us sent positive comments, they flat out refused to accept them. It was very much a bias report. Bummer.
Lately, I've been averaging 54 MPG calculated (55-56 MPG displayed).
The guy also claim that Prius battery alone costs $5,000. He did not mention that full hybrids also eliminate unnecessary parts such as alternator, starter, torque converter, clutch, flywheel, transmission, and integrated AC condenser with radiators in one unit.
Typical media hype. I suppose those same people are hiding under their beds in anticipation of the next terrorist attack. Averaging a nice 48 in suburban driving. I'm happy.
Toyota must be laughing so hard their crying, they bet on the future (read hybrids) and its paying off big time - thats why I hope Ford can capitalize on this cause Toyota & Honda are serious.
If the Prius really costs $40k to make, then what are the RX400h and Toyota HLH going to cost to make with luxury features?
He says all the high tech features in the Prius are expensive. Yet the Acura TL has many of the same features and more like leather and 5.1 sound and sells for $30-35k. Again, far less than the $40k he estimates for the Prius.
There are parts and labor it takes to manufacture the cars.
Then there is the R&D to develop a particular technology, manufacturing process, etc.
I don't know the Japanese tax laws but in the US, there are tax credits for R&D.
Plus, Toyota wouldn't amortize it's R&D costs just across this one model. They'd amortize those costs across all the hybrid models they plan to produce.
Again, while the Prius forms a small percentage of their total volumes, they plan to expand the percentage of hybrids sold.
Could they really afford a 50% loss on each unit if they're planning to expand the volumes of such units?
It is a much published fact that the Classic Prius (THS) did make a profit the final year of its production.
So to assume that the HSD technology in the 2004 Prius isn't on the fast-track to achieving profit also is absurd, especially now that we know the 2005 Prius production volume will be double what it was for the 2004.
In just a few months, HSD will be available in RX400h. About 4 months later, HSD will be available in the Highlander-Hybrid. Following that, a Lexus sedan and another Toyota vehicle will be equipped with HSD.
That's 5 vehicles all using HSD in just the short-term alone.
It is also a much published fact that Toyota wants to have a hybrid option available for every passenger vehicle they offer by 2010.
All the evidence points to this being nothing but a large development effort, just a well thought out new product. That's it. No conspiracy or another such nonsense... unlike the fuel-cell promotion that won't even deliver any feasible product until at least 2010. And even then, the fuel will only be available in very limited areas.
HSD would be a great subject of study in a Profit 101 class, a profound change in the automotive industry (ultimately driven by profit) unfolding as we speak.
Did Toyota put all the R&D money into the Hybrid concept/design because they KNEW it would be successful or did some manager at or near the top have the VISION to BELIEVE??
Look to the LearFan for an answer.
An absolutely beautiful, wonderful "vision" which never went into production.
Regardless of tax rules or laws companies must in some fashion be aware of the potential, rating, of the probability of ROI.
When my company sets out to develop a new product management is very well aware of the cost of the early models. No R&D payback, no next product!
And my guess at this time is that Toyota's current hybrid concept will never make it, successfully, beyond the economy class.
The production availibility of the RX400h has now been delayed 3 times, and my guess is taht it will turn out to be a real dud.
IMMHO the people of the "class" to buy hybrids are more interested in fuel economy rather than 0-60 times. No one of this classs sees the need for V8 performance in an RX400h SUV.
Just read the posts of folks in anticipation of the arrival of GSes and LSes with a SuperCharger hybrd battery pak.
Is that really where we want hybrid products to be??
According to a few dealers I've spoken with, they already have lists forming. I seriously doubt the RX400 will be a dud. Absolutely NO WAY. My feeling is that Toyota's hybrid technology will eventually make them a bigger company than GM. You watch and see.
I've not heard of 400h availability being delayed, the Escape hybrid yes but the Lexus ? Yep Toyota with their hybrid system looks like a winner to me and not much competition hasn't hurt either.
Hi gang, Enjoyed reading the latest posts about R&D and future vehicle releases. A hearty welcome back to John1701a, I've missed hearing from you. You can bet that when a company does their R&D, product testing and product acceptance, they're looking 3-5 years down the road. Since the Prius debuted in 1997 in Japan, Toyota has been doing their homework. Otherwise they wouldn't have put it on the American market. It's obvious they used what they learned from the classic Prius in the design/tech of the NEW Prius. I've talked to several people who own classic Priuses and they are just amazed at what my '04 can do. Give credit where credit is due. I honestly do not believe that the HSD will give 4WD a run for their money, but as most people foresee the rising costs of fuel and a clean environment as serious concerns, economy/cleaner burning is the name of the game. Thanks, Rich
How GREAT the fuel economy of the RXxxxh would be with the Highlander I4 yeilding V6 performance. Having owned a MY2000 AWD RX300, and currently a 2001 AWD RX, I see no need for more performance in terms of quickness 0-60.
The SC430 had a huge waiting list at one time too. The question is, how long will the demand for SuperCharged RXes hold up absent the "green" market?
Toyota is at stage two, executing their plans. HSD technology development and refinement were rather rapid. The kind of achievement only possible with the mentality when at war. That's my take on it.
Comments
So with the Prius, accelerating hard and cruising at 65mph won't acheieve top mileage.
Also, I've always skimmed C&D's (car & driver) actual versus EPA ratings...those guys never get EPA mileage. They dog those cars out everytime.
But with all due respect, dudley, your instance doesn't apply to everyone. How many cars have you driven? How do you drive? What kind of fuel do you use? What PSI are your tires? What kind of climate do you live in? What type of oil do you use? how often do you maintain your car?
As you can see, there are many, many variables to account for in this whole EPA game.
FWIW, DC area uses oxygenated fuel during certain months. We also might run the A/C during those times too. Oxygenated fuel has always yielded much lower MPG in my cars. With the compressor running and oxygenated fuel, I'd be lucky to get 21mpg out of my Audi A4 1.8T. That's highway/city combined (EPA would suggest 25 mpg in this case)
Also keep in mind that the EPA test is not with cruise control. It involves slowing and speeding up and only averages 48 mph.
My Integra is only 28 EPA highway, but can get 40 mpg going 60, and even going 85 will still get 31 or 32. Also well over EPA for Taurus (by the smallest amount - auto trannies are favored by the test), Corolla, Passat, Oasis, Sentra (up to 48 mpg), Scirocco (up to 45 mpg), G-20, and more. All were manuals except the Taurus and Oasis.
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I remember reading somewhere that they had the tracks adjusted aft so that the seat would better suit taller drivers. Not sure if was an '04, but in theory it could work. It would probably be expensive and it may compromise some of the electrical connections. I suppose during your test drive you didn't notice that you were uncomfortable.
Anyone else have any solutions/ideas?
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Thanks,
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fastdriver
These may seem like small things to many of you. However, how many of you have made a couple of dozen coast-to-coast driving trips? Lost efficiency means lost sleep and a more dangerous next day on the road.
I am trying to get enough information to make my cross-country drives more efficient in my 2004 Prius, which I really like. Apparently, the 3-gallon reserve (when pump icon comes on) is reasonably reliable according to many posters.
If I rely on this and it is inaccurate at the wrong time, do I risk expensive service?
Several years ago I was driving from SF to Atlanta and was somewhere between Flagstaff and Albequerque. It was in the middle of July and I had my mother and my two dogs in the car. A tanker truck jackknifed a few miles ahead and we were forced to sit, parked on the freeway, with no way of getting off or turning around, for 4 hours. In the middle of the desert, in the middle of the summer, in the middle of the day with 100+ degree temps it was not an option NOT to run the car for at least 15 minutes every 1/2 hour. I would have been SOL if I had been intent on letting my fuel get as low as possible before refueling.
Food for thought.
It stated that Toyota and Honda are facing a number of angry buyers who have found the cars' fuel efficiency falls short of advertised claims.
The article also states that the disclaimer "actual mileage may vary" has never been truer than with these vehicles.
What many buyers do not understand is the method that EPA uses to determine city/highway fuel economy. That it is largely a function of how the driver operates the vehicle and the driving conditions that determine what the fuel consumption per mile (gas mileage) will be.
Those of us who own hybrid vehicles have come to realize that there can be quite a variation in fuel economy depending on how the car is driven and the driving conditions.
I hope the EPA changes their (outdated?) testing procedures and that the automobile manufacturers advertise more realistic fuel economy numbers.
My "indicated" fuel economy has been 44-46 mpg for a 44 mile round-trip from my home to where I work. Two-thirds on interstate and one-third on city streets. I recently drove from Tucson to El Paso on Interstate 10 and got 51 mpg for the highway part of the trip. I10 is relatively flat and there was no wind blowing.
I am satisfied with the fuel economy, but I also bought the car for other reasons. All of which have have been discussed here, so I will not go into them again.
Also...the size of the vehicle is perfect for my family's needs. My wife does not require a Ford Explorer or Hummer to go back and forth to the mall.
On a recent tank I've averaged a measly 38 mpg. I say measly tongue-in-cheek compared to my previous vehicle, a 1984 Corvette (15/20 mpg). My latest tankful was up around 48 mpg, which made me smile. As we've all witnessed, driving conditions DO influence mpg so we shouldn't get too alarmed if we don't meet EPA mpg figures. I got stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic doing 10-15 mpg for about 5 miles and according to the on-dash readout, I got over 70 mpg!! I usually use the incremental mpg reading (5 min intervals) screen when I drive because the other page of that screen (showing the wheels turning w/instant mpg varying every mile) is misleading.
Remember that ANY effort to keep the environment cleaner and save gas is good for the planet and therefore good for us all. We should consider ourselvelves pioneers. Average gas price at name brand stations here is $2.35/gal.
Thanks,
Rich
False results on the high side.
But I have very little doubt that slightly aggressive drivers will have relatively poor fuel economy for highway cruising where the major, or maybe only, source of battery recharge is via the ICE.
The two points are not equal.
Enjoyed my car (loved the navigation system) for two days, when on the third day while driving, I received a "VSC" problem message. I immediately took it to the dealer where I bought it, and thats where it has stayed for 2 weeks now. Today is May 25, and tomorrow they think they should have it back to me.
The VSC problem message seems to have been only the tip of iceberg. Diagnostics unvealed 6 more issues. All this had lead the dealer replacing the trans-axle and inverter, both high dollar items. I was told the inverter was shorted, and the transaxle caused it... I hope this is just a fluke and replacing the transaxle/inverter will fix it.
(#9 cause all they offered at the time was #1 or #9 and I wanted Smart Entry and CD changer). Well I was planning on getting it in the spring ESPECIALLY now with gas at 2.30/gal but I went from #7 on the list in March to #6 now?? Looks like this Newburgh NY dealer not even getting 1 car a month? Guess I'm not getting mine till Sept or prob a 2005 model. What a hit Toyota has with this Hybrid! I don't even see any on the road up by me .
Seeing your posting, just as I was about to give up hope, was quite a gift. I've been on the waiting list at Molle Toyota in Kansas City for one month, and today they told me that the salesman actually FORGOT to put my name on the list. Strange, charging my credit card for the $500 deposit didn't slip his mind. Grrrr. After some pointed questions, a saleswoman called me back and told me I was No. 41 on the list, and that they delivered two Priuses last month. They refuse to be pinned down on even a ballpark estimate of when I'll get a vehicle. I'm not impressed by this dealership's performance. So which dealership told you there was a 5-month wait? And, more broadly, can anyone offer advice and strategies for scoring a Prius more quickly? I'm willing to travel quite far around the Midwest. I prefer one with package No. 7, and I'm not too picky about the color. I'll not pay a penny over MSRP, however.
http://www.ai-online.com/issues/article_detail.asp?id=405
Lately, I've been averaging 54 MPG calculated (55-56 MPG displayed).
JOHN
Dennis
He says all the high tech features in the Prius are expensive. Yet the Acura TL has many of the same features and more like leather and 5.1 sound and sells for $30-35k. Again, far less than the $40k he estimates for the Prius.
A lot of R&D has gone into the Prius that normal cars aren't burdened with.
Then there is the R&D to develop a particular technology, manufacturing process, etc.
I don't know the Japanese tax laws but in the US, there are tax credits for R&D.
Plus, Toyota wouldn't amortize it's R&D costs just across this one model. They'd amortize those costs across all the hybrid models they plan to produce.
Again, while the Prius forms a small percentage of their total volumes, they plan to expand the percentage of hybrids sold.
Could they really afford a 50% loss on each unit if they're planning to expand the volumes of such units?
So to assume that the HSD technology in the 2004 Prius isn't on the fast-track to achieving profit also is absurd, especially now that we know the 2005 Prius production volume will be double what it was for the 2004.
In just a few months, HSD will be available in RX400h. About 4 months later, HSD will be available in the Highlander-Hybrid. Following that, a Lexus sedan and another Toyota vehicle will be equipped with HSD.
That's 5 vehicles all using HSD in just the short-term alone.
It is also a much published fact that Toyota wants to have a hybrid option available for every passenger vehicle they offer by 2010.
All the evidence points to this being nothing but a large development effort, just a well thought out new product. That's it. No conspiracy or another such nonsense... unlike the fuel-cell promotion that won't even deliver any feasible product until at least 2010. And even then, the fuel will only be available in very limited areas.
HSD would be a great subject of study in a Profit 101 class, a profound change in the automotive industry (ultimately driven by profit) unfolding as we speak.
JOHN
Look to the LearFan for an answer.
An absolutely beautiful, wonderful "vision" which never went into production.
Regardless of tax rules or laws companies must in some fashion be aware of the potential, rating, of the probability of ROI.
When my company sets out to develop a new product management is very well aware of the cost of the early models. No R&D payback, no next product!
And my guess at this time is that Toyota's current hybrid concept will never make it, successfully, beyond the economy class.
The production availibility of the RX400h has now been delayed 3 times, and my guess is taht it will turn out to be a real dud.
IMMHO the people of the "class" to buy hybrids are more interested in fuel economy rather than 0-60 times. No one of this classs sees the need for V8 performance in an RX400h SUV.
Just read the posts of folks in anticipation of the arrival of GSes and LSes with a SuperCharger hybrd battery pak.
Is that really where we want hybrid products to be??
Enjoyed reading the latest posts about R&D and future vehicle releases. A hearty welcome back to John1701a, I've missed hearing from you. You can bet that when a company does their R&D, product testing and product acceptance, they're looking 3-5 years down the road. Since the Prius debuted in 1997 in Japan, Toyota has been doing their homework. Otherwise they wouldn't have put it on the American market. It's obvious they used what they learned from the classic Prius in the design/tech of the NEW Prius. I've talked to several people who own classic Priuses and they are just amazed at what my '04 can do. Give credit where credit is due. I honestly do not believe that the HSD will give 4WD a run for their money, but as most people foresee the rising costs of fuel and a clean environment as serious concerns, economy/cleaner burning is the name of the game.
Thanks,
Rich
The SC430 had a huge waiting list at one time too. The question is, how long will the demand for SuperCharged RXes hold up absent the "green" market?
Dennis