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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4
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3M TA3
You have to read it in a mirror.
-Frank P.
Since the X3 has not yet been tested, we'll have to wait and see how it does. :-)
And honestly, you really think a new BMW built by an outsider is going to be completely trouble-free?
I bet it'll have more visits to the dealer than your Forester did. The X5 had 14 recalls in the first year alone.
FWIW, I like the X3, and think the base model even represents a good value. I just don't think it's quite the Holy Grail that some owners seem to think it is, i.e. so good that it can't be compared to a mere Forester.
C&D compared the two directly, and named Forester to the 5Best truck list, so it can and has been compared, and even won in some cases.
-juice
Can you please explain why your clutch was replaced as well as the year and model of your Forester.
Thanks in advance.
Have a '99 Forester L. Clutch was worn unevenly.
This is the first time I've experienced this kind of reliability with a new car purchase. My 17 new cars have included 2 Acuras and 4 other BMWs over the years.
Last week I loaded my parents (85 and 89) into the back of the X3 with the sport package that Car & Driver picked apart, and we set off on a 750 mile 3-day road trip. They praised the comfort and utility of the car and soundly squashed my concern that the performance suspension would be uncomfortable for them.
-Frank P
Note that both the FX35 and Forester XT are mentioned ;-)
-Frank P
I don't mean to be a tease; I've just been working outside all day trying to beat tomorrow's forecast storms, and I'm beat myself.
More to follow...
Ed
Interesting to note that all the negative comments had to do with the lack of luxury in the the cabin, not driving performance.
If I had to pick one word to describe the X3 it'd be "stiff" - with all the positive and negative connotations that brings. Positive in terms of build quality and chassis rigidity; negative in terms of steering feel, handling and ride.
The X3's steering was much heavier and gave more feedback than the Forester's. At highway speeds this was a plus but around town and in the parking lot the heaviness felt artificially notchy - not unlike a force feedback steering wheel used for video games. The Forester's steering felt much lighter, too light in fact.
Acceleration and power was, IMO, no contest. The X3 3.0 is more than adequate but doesn't come close to the Forester XT. Smoothness (in terms of vibration, not 'refinement') is a different story; by their natures the BMW inline 6 is as smooth as silk while the Subaru flat four vibrates from side to side like a light aircraft engine. If the X3 3.0 didn't have so much more weight to lug around than the Forester it might feel as lively too. I couldn't imagine being happy with the 2.5 in the X3.
I'm a dedicated slushboxer for a variety of reasons (knees, traffic) but I appreciated the chance to row my own in the X3. Steptronic had a small lag though, not as quick to change gear as the Tiptronic in the Audi A4 Avant I considered buying 4 years ago. I wonder now whether having an adaptive AT that "learns" your driving habits is better than any manumatic. That aside having an extra gear credits the BMW and debits the Subaru.
Handling was a surprise to me. The X3 handles better than I expected; though there's a good bit of body lean its suspension and tires kept it in its place. The sensation I got was the one I get in my current Forester running its plus-one UHP A/S wheel and tire combo. The Forester XT leans a good bit too and its OEM tires are a hindrance, but those tires also were better at letting me know when the XT was nearing its limits than those on the X3. Ultimately though the Subaru felt a lot nimbler to me than the BMW, a lot easier to toss through the twisties. The cynic might say that was due to my familiarity with the car, but I'm inclined to believe that it's a combination of lighter weight, lower center of gravity and shorter wheelbase that gives the Forester the nod.
The Forester felt more softly sprung, which didn't harm its handling vs. the X3 as much as it improved its ride. Over rough pavement peppered with ruts and potholes the Subaru gets the nod.
Like power, braking was no contest, here in favor of the X3. Pedal feel in the BMW was much more reassuring than the infamous Subaru spongy pedal, and bringing the X3 to a stop was quicker and firmer, with much less nosedive than the Forester (for which it's notorious). IMO Subaru deserves to be taken to task for uprating the XT's power over the XS without uprating the brakes.
I am familiar enough with Subarus that the Forester's ergonomics didn't bother me; they're much improved over my current car. The X3 was standard BMW fare but there is a lot of switchgear that didn't fall readily to hand - or maybe too readily. At one point while shuffle steering I suddenly heard a telephone ring tone. The salesman pointed out that I had hit a small button on the steering wheel and was now calling BMW Assist ("like OnStar but really a concierge service"). Note to BMW: You can have too many functions on a steering wheel.
The X3's seats are more comfortable than the Forester's, especially the rears. Rear seat legroom is far greater in the X3, but subjectively I felt that shoulder room was better front and rear in the Forester. I also felt that the front footwell in the X3 was more cramped; the center console could be a bit narrower.
The Forester's outward visibility is much better than the X3's. Smaller outside mirrors and thick A-, C- and D-pillars hinder the X3.
Cargo space was a toss-up. I didn't measure either but IIRC the BMW's is slightly larger; it appeared taller to me but not deeper. The built-in rails for rack mounts in the X3 are a nice touch. The only drawback (admittedly subjective) is that I would feel less comfortable throwing dirty, muddy stuff in the back of the X3 than I would in the back of the Forester.
Moonroofs are a toss-up too, both are huge. BMW has added a nice touch with some sort of rubber bellows at the sides to reduce wind buffeting.
Friday was a sunny dry day so unfortunately I didn't get to test BMW's X-Drive in inclement weather.
Cliffs Notes: Power - XT. Dry handling - XT. Braking - X3. Transmission - X3, but not if XT learns me well. Seats - X3. Ergonomics - XT. Chassis rigidity - X3. Ride - XT. Cargo - draw, slight nod to the XT. Moonroof - draw.
Styling is subjective, I won't touch it here.
The X3 has a lot of nice little touches, maybe more attention to detail. Are those worth $15-18K more? Maybe that's not for me to say.
Sorry to be so long winded and not as scientific as I could be.
Ed
:-)
Steve, Host
The Bimmer might also carry a certain cachet (if that's what you seek), plus there's free service.
-juice
Mark
For me, I think the hardest part of getting used to the FX was the width of the vehicle, that took about a week of driving to get used to as it is wider than my previous vehicle, a 4Runner.
Click & Clack discussed properly adjusting mirrors here:
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/article.asp?ArtID=6287
fxfan - thanks for that link!
Curious- how tall are you? I'm over 6', and have no view issues with my '45. My only issue came from the mirrors (I wish they weren't rounded off at the extreme upper tips, as that's where I look when looking for two-lanes-over side traffic), but lowering the seat all the way (so that most of my field of view is in the "fat" part of the mirror) fixed that.
-juice
JDPower new 2004 initial quality study released last week and again Subaru loses to BMW. BMW finished 4th behind Lexus, Honda and Hyundai. The industry average defects was 119 and BMW
was 116. Subaru was below average at 123 (no suprise) and was below GM and DaimlerChrysler. I don't make these stories up like Subaru owners I just try and use published facts without total opinion. Well, I don't think I need to post anymore on this web site because I have proven the BMW bashers wrong when they posted on this site in Jan (look it up) that BMW was headed down because of Bangle. Every month since January the % sales growth has increased and proved your opinion totally wrong and also is proving your opinion of Subaru wrong because your sales trends are the opposite of BMW the last 3 months.
OK Subaru owners, you guys started it so I am only defending my brand. I'm sure this will creat a flood of BMW bashers but if the truth hurts (and the facts hurt) so be it. By the way, I'm done on this site and proven my point so eat my M3 dust and don't tell me that with $5000 your Subaru can be modified (who cares) with $5000 my BMW can be modified or any other car can.
But the 3.0i version is marred by unpredictable handling at its limits; it had moderate two-wheel tip-ups on runs through our avoidance maneuver despite standard stability control. Below-average reliability, a choppy ride, and limited cargo space are additional detractions."
I can't say much for the sales differences Subaru vs BMW because I'm convinced that not all consumers do their homework before they buy, some follow the crowd and go for image over safety, affordability and reliability. And I do not equate 'initial quality' with 'long term reliability'.
Promise?
Now go trolling somewhere else.
-juice
April, up 5 percent over last year" - SoA
corkfish, if you want to drive the EVO around me, I'd be happy to move over. Have fun in that thing on a loong trip or two. I personally don't car how many buzz cars can outgun an M3. Different strokes for different folks.
I have not seen a break down of numbers (how many responses they get as compared to the total cars out there), but I would have to believe with BMW at 116, the overall average being 119, and Subaru being at 123, that the difference between BMW and Subaru is not statistically relevant.
Elissa- I think most X3s end up being much closer to $40k once all the "options" are added in. In comparison, the FXT averages about $25k so the real difference is almost $15k! But hey, it's a BMW right? That's got to be worth something ;-)
-Frank P
I would guess it's worth it to the people who buy it. Same thing to every other luxo type of SUV/SAV/XUV on the road.
Why is it that if someone prefers the X3 they "did not do their homework before buying", or they "follow the crowd and go for image over safety, affordability and reliability?"
C’mon guys, everyone has different priorities when evaluating cars. That's why there's such a great selection out there.
Holy cow, that's a mighty display of immaturity if I ever saw it.
Since the quarter started in April, you're really saying sales are down in April compared to what?
Also, I absolutely agree that everyone has different priorities when determining which car to buy and since the X3 excels in several areas, I've no doubt that it's the best choice for some. IMHO the problem with this board isn't the FXT owners; it's a few X3 owners who are insulted that anyone dare compare the two.
-Frank P
No there is no problem, there is only people voicing an opinion.
I'm just responding appropriately. Pardon me for falling for the troll bait, though.
Ignore him and he'll go away, and this board will become more civil.
-juice
Now why can't we have more reports here like that here, rather than all the mud-slinging?
Bob
I LOVE mine!
Steve, Host
That does have a nice ring to it. I even have something topical to add:
New SUVs Do Well In Crash Tests (theneworleanschannel.com)
Steve, Host
Still, the IIHS tests are tougher, let's see if the pricier utes can match Subaru's perfect scores on those, too.
-juice
And modest! LOL
-juice
-Frank P