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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/ae_news_story.php?id=44427

    I won't call it quite ugly, but not exactly a beautiful design. Looks like the Opel Signum 5 door, the euro Chevy Malibu Maxx.

    It's got big eyes and a small hatch, plus the concave panels on the sides that are Bangle's trade mark.

    If you've seen the new Audi A3, the BMW isn't even close. It's better looking than the Mercedes A-class, though.

    -juice

    PS Edit: you may have to copy/paste that link
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    Well, when I drive in the snow or rain, I like when things are predictable. It usually means safer to me. I'm just saying that the base symmetrical all-wheel-drive system used by Subaru has proven very effective and safe for quite a few years. The addition of added traction technology will definetly help most cars and particularly the more complex AWD systems.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    "I'm not sure about the limitations of the BMW and Infiniti systems, can they send 100% of power to the front axle if necessary?"

    The x dive on the 3x can send 100% of power to the front and send power to each wheel individually.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool. I recall BMW demonstrated their AWD system on one of those ramps, where only one wheel has traction at any given time.

    The X5 could climb it, but what surprised me was that the 3 series could, also.

    -juice
  • dt63944dt63944 Member Posts: 66
    I've had an XT since April 03 and now that the X3's been around for a bit....I think Subaru has beaten BMW at their own game. The X3 can't compete on fit and finish and performance. Styling is subjective, but the XT's got a certain "funkiness" about it and a whole lot more practicality - for example, look at the "bumpers" on the X3, particularly how the headlamp washers are attached. One little bump and poof! there's a $1000 expense for you. The stereo's very good in both. Seats are very good in both. The quality and styling of the XT's interior has an edge on the X3, I think. I've driven the 04 X5 4.4 and I'd rather have that than the X3, but it's a bigger vehicle and 175-180 inches is a good size for parking and so forth.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The X3 can't compete on fit and finish and performance."

    No the X3 exceeds it on fit and finish and has a lot more panache. It only loses on stoplight racing. I do agree all cars suffer from the 5mph over $1000 damage syndrome. Including the Subaru unless they have been built for 5mph crashes. There is a link floating around on one of the Edmunds forums about 5mph crashes. Crazy stuff like $3K for a 5mph crash. I think that honor went to the TSX.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    The Forester is rated best in class for low-speed crashes and had the lowest repair costs :-)

    -Frank P.
  • scotth6scotth6 Member Posts: 43
    If Subaru's are such great vehicles than why did they not make either the Editors list of top vehicles on Edmunds own sight or consumers list of most wanted. Not one Subaru on either list, must be a typo right? Yes, BMW had 4-5 vehicles on each list which also must be a typo since consumers aren't paid to rate them as most wanted. Oh by the way, Car & Driver road test page 128 April 2004 says the roadholding G force on the X3 was .88 vs .75 yes .75 for your beloved Forester 2.5XT and braking 70-0 was 172 ft for the X3 vs. 184 for the Forester. Yes, the Forester is fast as hell but with those handling and braking numbers I wouldn't want to try and drive it fast. Also the listed top speed for the X3 is wrong with performance tires it is governed at 140 vs. 129 for the XT. Just the facts not opinion.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Oh you don't know how badly I want to respond to that post ;-) But I'll be good and bite my tongue.

    -Frank P.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Seems like a good time to jump in with this plug - vote early (but not often <g>):

    Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004

    Steve, Host
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The Forester is rated best in class for low-speed crashes and had the lowest repair costs :-)"

    By who and what is low speed? :)
  • x3rx3r Member Posts: 21
    A post from another forum that seems relevant here.

    "The bmw x3 captured 1st and second place in the 2004 Alcan winter rally beating all subarus including the famous forester."
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But it is rated best in class for low-speed crashes. <-)
  • vf34wrxvf34wrx Member Posts: 2
    Look, when it comes down to it...the BIGGEST thing the Forester XT has over the others is its SPEED and low cost. YES, STOCK the XT does not handle as well as the others. However, the XT is based on the Impreza Platform i.e. WRX and WRX STi. The POTENTIAL from the XT with say...an additional $3000 dollars is BEYOND what any of the others could come near (for a cash expensive of less than another 7000 on top of the more $$$ price tag). I currently own a WRX that I have put about 5K into and I out perform M3s (oh yes...I out perform the precious M3...), I ALSO have an Infiniti G35 Coupe. You want to know what is funny, for all the hopla about how great it is to own a desinger brand car I HATE IT, In all the vehicles I ahve owned (Audis to Volkswagons and everything in between) ONLY HONDA has been worse in Factory Service. THat is PRECISELY why I am selling my G35 and buying a F-XT. I love BMWs and at the time of buying my G35 I looked VERY seriously at a M3....just was not my cup of tea. Someone mentioned EBD, VDC, and other acronyms....can you tell me what they stand for with out looking them up and how they work? My g35 has vdc.....does that mean in winter it will handle better than a AWD F-XT? DOubt it...in the end VDC just helps make a RWD car some what usable in Winter...hell the G35 with BLizzak LM22s on performs half as good as my SUbe. Look, in the end people are going to believe what they want, you cannot change that. But to say that a Sube is NOT as good as a BMW or Infiniti because it is cheaper is ignorant. Example? How about this...The DOdge Viper is INFINITLY BETTER than the COrvette Z06....when the Viper is RUNNING sure. Lets just agree that NOT everyone wants or values the SAME things in vehicles...and to be honest my view is skewed because when I buy a car I usually drop another 5 to 10 grand into Enahncing it (past vehicles of Mine that I have upgraded include a 99 A4 quattro, 01 S2000, and my G35 and WRX). THe problem with SUbe is that YES they are not a name brand car, but the POTENTIAL is amazing. BTW...since we talk about handling....how many World Rally wins does BMW or infinti have under their belt? ANd you would be hard pressed to find a Automotive Race that requires BETTER handling and traction than Rally.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Wait until Cobb is done with the access tuner (May). Look under the dash to the left of the steering wheel, you'll see the diagnostic port. This thing plugs in and in five minutes you'll get another 20 horsepower and even more torque. It's true though, I'm not sure if the handling abilities of this car are up to more horsepower. I'm afraid it might get the undisciplined driver in real trouble!

    http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/accessport.html
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    I just recieved my 2004 "Annual Auto Issue" of Consumer Reports--a good source generally for unbiased information. They list four Subarus available to consumers for purchase, three of which they "recommend," one of which is their "top choice." (the Forester is the top rated small SUV). They also list seven BMWs; only one is recommended, and none is considered a top choice.

    Zman
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/low_speed_smsuv.htm

    Forester is #1 in class. And before you say that compromises safety, nope, Best Pick in IIHS front offest plus 5 stars in NHTSA both driver and passenger.

    So no compromises, I'll call them the best SUV bumpers, period.

    x3 captured 1st and second place

    Yes, competing in a higher class with navigation equipment that the Forester did not have. Scary thing is that the Forester XT actually challenged the Bimmers.

    Now, what would be real fun would be to compare team budgets...

    Just the facts not opinion

    Fact is C&D 5Best Compact SUV is the Forester, so that means they conclude that the Forester is better overall than the BMW X3. In fact they compared them directly and BMW lost.

    Why did you leave that out? LOL

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    what does the link say juice?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    He said the ride was so hard it "lost its composure and became hard to control" over big pot holes.

    He called the interior "rather spartan" and compared the seats to a wooden church pew.

    Some other highlights:

    air-conditioner seemed to fight with itself

    rear doors are light, and shut with a tinny sound


    He liked the engine and the AWD system, but complained loudly about the as-tested price.

    Of course you saw X5 reviews like this early on and that model has sold well.

    -juice
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    He also admired its handling and concluded by calling it a sports car trapped in an SUV body.

    (Don't have the paper here but he might have said "sport sedan" instead of "sports car".)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Pretty soon we'll have the entire review copied/pasted here, LOL.

    The solutions to the vehicle's shortcomings are simple: stick to mirror-smooth roads, bring along a pillow to sit on and put a piece of black tape over the air bag warning light.

    So if it has more lateral Gs than the Forester, you certainly have a significant trade off for that.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    He also said: "The driveline is magnificent, its various components - from the engine to the rear differential - acting cohesively as a single, vibration-free unit."

    He concludes by saying: "INSIDE TRACK: A sports car trapped in a sport ute body."

    If you look at most of the reviews of the X3, even the bad ones, they ALL agree that the X3 has a superb engine, xdrive is terrific, and it handles better than most other SUVs. This review again confirms this. Most reviews, including this one, also mention the stiff ride and less-than-optimal cupholders due to the fact they are reviewing an SUV and therefore comparing it to other SUV's. Lets also keep in mind that many reviewers, inluding this one, were driving the stiffer sports package. My take on all this: If you want a cushy ride and lots of big cupholders, the X3 is not for you! If, on the other hand, you prefer more precise and sportier handling, and can make due with the less-than-optimal cup holders, the X3 will not let you down.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Yeah, but compared to the XT, it'll certainly let my bank account down.

    Zman
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    "The bmw x3 captured 1st and second place in the 2004 Alcan winter rally beating all subarus including the famous forester."

    And now for the rest of the story (which you won't find in the X3 topic):

    The Subaru Forester Turbo of Paul Eklund, Kala Rounds and Gary Reid came in third overall and first in Class III (no rally computer), and dominated the rally ice races. The Forester gained on the front-running BMW teams on the final day but ended up 20 points (or two ice races) short. Still, it was the only time in recent memory when Class II (computer) competitors were hounded to the finish line by a Class III car.

    Don't look now BMW but Subaru is closing fast!

    -Frank P.
  • john284john284 Member Posts: 71
    Forester rules! On the other hand, any major manufacturer could win the world rally race if they want to, it is a matter of their focus, subaru dominated the rally stages and help it sell more imprezas, other manu will follow suit and push their products....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, now we *have* copied the full article. ;-)

    Handling was good only on smooth surfaces. Losing its composure like that over a pothole affects my overall assessment of handling, it has to be able to "handle" a pothole, too.

    What if you hit a bump in the middle of a corner? Do you send a street sweeper in front of every path you take?

    Sports package - true, but aren't most of them equipped that way? If I try one I'll probably try one without that option, if they even have one on the lot.

    Meanwhile, Forester once again took top honors in the overall ratings in CR's Auto Issue, not to mention #1 in their Safety Assessment too. Plus it made the list for "Most Satisfying":

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040308/ap- _on_bi_ge/consumer_reports_glance_1

    -juice
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    It looks like the top of that article is talking about crash test results (Forester #1, VUE #2 - that sounds right), and the bottom part talks about owner satisfaction, where the Forester ranks 9th for car-based SUV's.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The print edition goes into more detail. Forester is the top scoring model in its class in their overall ratings and in the safety assessment (that's the first half of the article shown above).

    I'm not sure the 2nd half is ranked in order, but it might be.

    -juice
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    per the print edition, April 2004... "Models are listed within categories in order of percentage of owners who said that they were likely to buy them again." It does not say whether it is ascending or descending order, but such lists typically are in descending order, highest rated listed first.

    That would make the Forested the 9th highest rated of the nine CR "most satisfying" car-based SUVs. (Or for the Subie-haters out there: the last on the list of "Most Satisfying Car-Based SUVs")

    Worthy of note, all of the other vehicles on the list, with the exception of the Honda Element (#2 on the list), are much more expensive, "upscale" models. I would imagine that a fair percentage of owners of "economy" models expect to "move up" to a more expensive model with their next purchase.

    james
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Element got great ratings all around. Interesting.

    -juice
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    All I can say is....now I see what the Subaru people are talking about. I went between these three back to back to back several times, and all I can say is that the X3 is the weak sister in this group. Noticeably cheaper interior. Even my wife was asking "are you sure this is a BMW?"

    Couple the XT's performance with its much better than expected interior, and it looks like a steal to me.

    The FX is just, well, different. Real nice, but not for me.

    I was surprised at how nice the XT interior was. I had a '97 Outback until 2002, and it was really cheap interior wise. Nice to see Subaru has made improvements in this area.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    "I went between these three back to back to back several times, and all I can say is that the X3 is the weak sister in this group".

    The X3 probably does have a more spartan interior of the three, but the beauty of the X3 is really hidden under the hood. It's a fabulous piece of engineering that can only be appreciated if it's taken out on the road. I spent some time on the road in both an NT and X3 (as well as other small SUV's) and for me nothing could really come close to the X3's precise handling. No question, the XT is fast and certainly represents good value, but in comparing these vehicles I guess it comes down to what your priorities are.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Actaully, it's under the hood where the XT is the hands down winner. It's the suspension and tire depts where the X3 has the advantage.

    -Frank P.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    When I said, "but the beauty of the X3 is really hidden under the hood", I wasn't just talking about speed.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Okay so admittedly we're splitting hairs here but under the hood normally refers to the engine.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    BMW's I-6 is beloved for its smoothness, not just its acceleration.

    Not that the XT's engine is rough, it's actually smoothed out nicely by the turbo. The EJ257 engine also made Ward's 10Best, along with the M3's engine (but not the 3.0l I6).

    Autoweek had a short tid bit about the X3, they loved the engine but hated the stiff ride (Sport Package). I wonder if all the press cars have the Sport Package because it seems like everyone complains about the ride.

    Funny thing is it almost seems like they should switch engines, put the 2.5T boxer 4 with the BMW's stiff suspension for an edgier SUV, and put the 3.0l I6 in the Forester's compliant, long travel suspension for more luxury.

    -juice
  • jeff33jeff33 Member Posts: 22
    I am very imnpressed with all the logic I read about the Subaru, and I believe it. BUT, is there anyone else, other than me, who finds the Subaru homely at best? I don't know what it is, but the exterior styling just isn't appealing to me in the least. I wish I could make myself like it, but alas.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    You're certainly not alone in your opinion of the Forester's styling. Even most Forester owners will admit that it won't win any beauty contests. Still, most people don't find its looks offensive and its many virtues more than adequately compensate for its looks. But while it's easy to say that you should base your purchase on more than looks, the reality is that if you don't like the way a vehicle looks you almost certainly won't be happy with it.

    -Frank P.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    "is there anyone else, other than me, who finds the Subaru homely at best."

    Another word someone else on this board used was frumpy. I posted earlier that Subaru would instantly move up a notch if they just worked on the aesthetics, which I understand is in the works. I own a '99 Forester and I actually like the older model better than the newer one. The original was more Plain Jane and had that practical, utilitarian, no-nonsense look that I find kind of appealing. Trying to just spiff it up does not really work. To move away from that look successfully will require a total overhaul in the looks department, in my opinion.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    The last thing I want is a car that's "pretty".
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Then I'd say the pickens are real good these days.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    Interesting article...Talking about some of the controversy BMW is wrestling with, their CEO explains:

    "It proves we are still an emotional brand with a strong bond between us and our customers."

    I never thought of it that way. I guess that could also apply to the almost cult-like following enjoyed by Subaru.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    or was, as it was yanked from this thread for being in violation of Edmunds rules. So unfortunately nobody will know what your post is referring to... It's our little secret. :)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Function over form. Get in each of these 3 and tell me which has the best visibility. Forester, hands down. No competition.

    X3 is a distant 2nd place. It's not exactly pretty, either, though I won't go as far as calling it ugly. It's still too "Bangle". D-pillar blocks your view.

    FX is a way, way distant 3rd in terms of visibility. Get the rear view camera because that's the only way I'd be brave enough to do something daring - like back it up! LOL

    So in this class visibility and style are inversely proportional.

    Take your pick.

    -juice
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "X3 is a distant 2nd place. It's not exactly pretty, either, though I won't go as far as calling it ugly. It's still too "Bangle". D-pillar blocks your view."

    Comes out first for me. Like the style, ride and interior and didn't notice any D pillar blocking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe you have x-ray vision that can see through sheet metal? ;-)

    Just kidding. Get in a Forester and you'll see what you've been missing. I mean that literally. The frameless doors allow for thin pillars and the greenhouse overall allows for excellent visibility, best in class easily.

    -juice
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    for some it is more important to "LOOK GOOD" than to "SEE WELL"!!!

     =)
    james
This discussion has been closed.