BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

1141517192024

Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    To me a truly great design is beautiful immediately, it should not have to grow on you. Yet it also stands the test of time.

    if it stays within what is considered tasteful design—meaning if it's not too radical. If, however, it's a design that breaks all the established *rules* of contemporary aesthetics, that's another story.

    And that has been an issue with every new radical art movement from the dawn of time. The Impressionists and Post Impressionists of the late 1800s, for the most part, their art was hated when it was originally exhibited. Today that art is priceless. They were way ahead of the curve so to speak.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Taurus managed to do that in 1986, yet it's a mainstream car. Even today they don't look that old.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    We've overstayed our welcome on the Bangle issue. One final thought (from me), I really don't get terribly upset over radical designs, regardless of where they come from. Nor do I pay much attention to those who issue edicts as to what design should or should not be.

    If the (car) design interferes with the operation, ergonomics and/or function, that's when I get upset.

    Bob
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The '86 Taurus looks positively tame today; not so back then.

    Bob
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    I wonder if BMW or Infiniti will allow their cars in a magazine comparo versus the Forester. Not smart marketing if you are gonna get a perfomance whipping. I am partial to Subaru, but I would buy all three vehicles. The Subaru is the least stylish, but it grows on you in person and watching it on the road. The FX35 is a presence, it turns my head everytime I see one. Finally to Bangles credit the X3 is sportier looking than the X5.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually what impressed me about the X3 is that the packaging is more efficient than the X5. It's smaller but has almost the same room. The only dimension I noticed a difference was width.

    It might not be saying much, but still.

    -juice
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    ...but despite all the negative reviews, it single handedly changed the course of car styling in the eighties.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The coffin-nose Cord and Chrysler/Dodge/Desoto Airflows of the 1930s were utter failures in their era. Most people hated the designs of those cars back then. Today are regarded as landmark car designs.

    Landmark, yes, but mainly (or perhaps even only) because they were in the forefront of radically aerodynamic shapes, and thus were true pathfinders. I've been a Chrysler fan and supporter for decades, but even I don't know very many Chrysler fans who actually think the Airflows are or were very good looking.

    As for the Taurus and Sable, I rarely like Ford designs, but I thought those two were more than acceptable from day one.

    I'm solidly with Juice - a truly great design is recognized as such immediately - like the BMW 507. Nothing ever penned by Bangle has or will ever qualify.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Moses has spoken from the mountaintop...

    Sorry, I disagree. There's no way you can predict accurately how history will view Bangle. Just judging by the amount of cyber ink that has been spent on him here certainly indicates that he's had some influence. I'm sure you'll call it a bad influence, but you don't know how he has influenced others in his field, or young car design students.

    Okay, I'm done with him. I've said about all I can. From here on in it just gets to be repetitive blabber.

    Bob
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    In no way can the Cord be compared to Bangle designs. The Cord was universally accepted as a striking beauty in its time. It was afflicted by technical problems, high price and the depression.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I liked the Taurus immediately. I knew it would revitalize Ford. In fact, if you think about it, it's only gotten worse since 1986. Even the 500 and the Futura don't look any better.

    Tough act to follow.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    he's had some influence. I'm sure you'll call it a bad influence, but you don't know how he has influenced others in his field, or young car design students.

    Let all of us who oppose extreme visual pollution hope and pray that any influence Bangle might have on young car design students will be limited to providing a truly obnoxious example that they should avoid imitating at all cost.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    This board just can't seem to get enough of Bangle. As rsholland said, at this point it's just becoming repetitive blabber....

    On another note, does anyone have any opinions as to why Subaru doesn't hire some top design talent? They make some pretty decent cars, and I think they would instantly move up a couple of notches with a more exiting look across the board.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You must've been speed reading, they hired Andreas Zapatinas (formerly of Alfa, with BMW before that) late last year.

    -juice
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    Sorry, some how missed that one. Glad to see they are making a real commitment to design. It's about time. Hopefully, we'll see the real impact that has sooner than later.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I've seen some of Zapatinas' Subaru designs, it appears he is in the process of establishing a corporate "face" for Subaru's - not unlike Alfa, Mercedes, VW, or pre-Bangle BMW.

    I'll see if I can find a link to a website and show you what I mean.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    Just could'nt resist the B word again... :-) Would be interested to see some pics.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Can't blame you for speed reading all those posts. :-)

    FWIW, the Zapatinas designs are controversial, too.

    The new 2005 Legacy was almost universally acclaimed yet it's pretty conservative for an all-new design. I think they got the details right so I like it, but I would not call it distinctive.

    It's definitely not timeless. We'll look back in a decade or two and be able to tell the Legacy came from the post Y2K era.

    So among Subaristi, the conservative Legacy approach drew more praise than the daring Zapatinas design. We'll see how it flies, but Subaru is commited to that new face.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    guarantee you the new Subie's face will receive a lot of flack. It will make the criticism of Bangle look tame. Oops! I mentioned the "B" word. My bad...

    Bob
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I've seen shots of that particular show car before. Except for the ridiculous headlamps (they've absolutely gotta go) I have no quarrel with the rest. Same goes for the Subaru B-11 show car, which is similar in concept to the RX-8 but vastly better than the latter. I'd buy a B-11 in a heartbeat, even with its oddball horse-collar radiator inlet.

    If the radiator inlets and headlamp treatments on these designs get cleaned up a bit between the show circuit and production, I think they'll be well received.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I PROMISE!!

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6853

    Bob <running and hiding>
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    image
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'll reserve judgement on the new Audi's deep radiator inlet. Other than that, I think it is an excellent evolution of recent Audi designs, which are simply outstanding.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    Wow...if Subaru really has the guts to go forward with that new look, it will definitely take them into another orbit. I like it too. Just goes to show, even if you have all the right specs, in the end, people just judge a car by it's looks. Sorry, new Audi A6 is nice but just not stretching the limit enough. As for B....I guess too hot to put a lid on it.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    should have moved this styling discussion (styling&#151;not design, as there is a difference) over to the Subaru Cafe a looooong time ago.

    Bob
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    solution is to shrink its owners?
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    The new A6 is absolutely gorgeous - no one does an interior better than Audi. That grill treatment is Audi's new face. Actually it's taken from one of the old Auto Union race cars from the 30's - stunning.

    Could Subaru possibly be aiming at Audi in it's trek up market? Audi, Subaru and All Wheel Drive cars are synonymous.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru does have Audi in their cross hairs. :)

    It may take a while, but Audi is clearly a Subie target to aim for.

    Bob
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    Well, once the Japanese car makers have figured out that styling thing (and they're getting closer every day), the going will get tough for the Germans.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I think the Koreans are closer to figuring it out than the Japanese at the moment. BMW should consider stealing away a couple Hyundai stylists :-)
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    When it comes to car design, I don't think the Koreans are quite ready for prime time. Superb engineering does come with the territory.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    Or at least semi-ontopic? I was reading the new Edmunds review of the new BMW 530i. All this talke of trading off performance for prestige made me catch this tidbit:

    "That slowness is most apparent in its off-the-line performance, as its lack of torque leaves it dragging until the engine speed climbs above 3,000 rpm. From that point on, the pace quickens considerably, but choose the wrong gear and you're left with little in reserve. We can't imagine how the smaller 2.5-liter engine fares with only 184 horsepower; unless the badge on the hood is the only thing that matters to you, we would suggest steering clear of the paltry power plant in the base model."

    What might that suggest about the XT v. X3 where the power difference is dramatic? Obviously, that particular reviewer hlooks negatively upon buying a car purely for prestige :).

    overtime
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    We're into the age of more power, less BS. This means less Bangle Spin.

    Njswamplands, are you into Imus or Stern? This is very important to me. I love your wisecracks but can't seem to figure out if you are a genius or mutant. Please help me out.

    FYI: I'm a mutant.

    ;-)
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't often read the sedan reviews here, but I did skim that one. The "530i is harder to justify this time around" language at the end caught my eye, since someone was complaining about European editorial bias around Town Hall yesterday.

    Here's the link.

    Carry on!

    Steve, Host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Njswamplands, are you into Imus or Stern?

    Don't know about Swampy, but I tried - really tried - to get into the Imus thing several years ago. I listened to the radio show for at least six month. Finally gave up because he's a colossal, crashing bore and simply isn't worth the time.

    As for Stern, I occasionally make myself watch his TV show just to see whether he has managed to climb out of the cesspool, but he obviously likes it in there too much. Hands down, the worst program that has ever appeared on TV.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Sorry, new Audi A6 is nice but just not stretching the limit enough.

    I can't think of a situation where I'd reject an otherwise excellent auto merely because its stylists failed to stretch the limits enough, whatever that means. How much is enough, anyway?

    I don't buy cars for shock value. There is much to be said for thoughtful, orderly, harmonious evolutionary change. The new A6 fits that sensible concept to a "T".

    Bravo, Audi, for not getting carried away with yourselves, as Bangle has done.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I notice this infatuation with Audi among Subieheads. Must be the AWD and the drop-dead good looks of Audi wagons. But please, don&#146;t ever hope Subaru gets like Audi. Subies don&#146;t need luxury, just performance and utility. I hate wearing a suit and I love my wash-and-wear Outback. For the most part Subie keeps it real and I hope they stay this way. The XT format is mostly right on the money.

    It ain&#146;t easy doing 4.5 hours of comedy every morning. iMan rules. da-da-DA!!! Yeah, gets boring but there are yucks there with some real characters. Also, it's the only place where you can find real improv. I need this to face the serious world of work every day. Stern is just a jerk.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I notice this infatuation with Audi among Subieheads.

    I can't speak for others, but I was infatuated with Audis long before I became a Subaru owner last June.

    Through a quirk, I bought two very early-production '79 RX-7s in 1978. Kept one (for 200,000 flawless miles), tried to trade the other straight across for a new Audi 100 sedan. Couldn't get the Audi dealer to go for it due to the sticker-price differences, so I sold the 2nd RX-7 to a private party for more than the Audi's value. That was when new RX-7s were selling at far above MSRP.
  • mamgtmamgt Member Posts: 67
    "I don't buy cars for shock value. There is much to be said for thoughtful, orderly, harmonious evolutionary change".

    I totally agree. I guess my comment had more to due with the fact that knowing how Audi keeps some models, like the A6, out there for a bunch of years, they need to look that much more ahead or as I said "stretch the limit" By the way, I would probably own one if I could just fit in one.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    The only thing Subaru needs to improve on to be a little more Audi-like is the interior. Not so much the design, but the content. Actually Subaru needs to aim for Audi's less affluent cousin VW. If my STi had my 03 Jetta Wagon's interior features it would be a perfect car. The night time illumination - all switches and controls are backlit, the vanity lighting and that excellent interior material quality - the graining of the vinyl, all the soft touch surfaces and thoughtful little features like the lined sunglass holder and cubbies. The leather interior my my Jetta is every bit as nice as the X5 and has almost exactly the same feature content.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's well known that Subaru aspires to be a premium automaker. FHI big cheeses have been saying that publicly for some time now. Audi has been mentioned by a number of car scribes as a possible target, maybe it's the AWD thingy...

    As to *premium,* that can be interpreted any number of ways: Luxury? Performance? Best in market segment? Who knows?

    Bob
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Chevy Nomad concept car looks awesome. I guess this means we will never see it. Ditto for Saturn Curve. Anyone care to comment how hot Solstice will be?

    BMW should do a George Steinbrenner deal to get Lutz. X3 among others would benefit. There! Kept it on topic.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Here's an interesting article in today's USAToday:

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-19-gm-sporty_x.htm

    Click on the Photos link - that Nomad is a stunner, inside and out. It has styling elements of the original 53 Corvette and the 56-57 Nomad.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Juice and I saw them in person at Detroit. Easily some of the best designs to come out of GM in decades.

    I like all three; Nomad, Curve and Solstice.

    Lutz is a "car guy" (oh how I hate that overused term!), with superb taste, and has a great instinct for product. He's not a designer, but a motivator.

    Bob
This discussion has been closed.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.