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Comments
Perhaps a little harsh, but I side with the general idea. I feel that much of this is directed toward a select few of the "Subaru Crew" who constantly bash other makes, although most others here seem to have relatively open minds, as evidenced by earlier discussions. I too respect the Forester for what it is, but some here need to realize it isn't a cure-all for everyone.
Edmunds (including the host) is very "pro-Subaru", so you may need to search th web for vehicle specific forums to find more in-depth information.
Let's stick to discussing the vehicles and not the people who discuss them.
tidester, host
Huh? The first post was comparing the X3 and XT with the FX added shortly thereafter.
If you personally only want to compare "prestige labels" then feel free to ignore the XT references. However, whether you like it or not, there are some people who evaluate cars mainly on performance, content and other quantifiable areas. Even then, no one's saying the XT is the obvious winner, but it does deserve consideration.
-Frank P.
(I'll have to read the talk over there since I'm a host, but I'll try not to drag my Outback into the mix too often <g>).
Steve, Host
Just a heads up...I'm not part of any Subaru crew and I am not here to bash the X3 or FX35 or the decisions of people to buy them. I have ZERO problem with someone choosing a more luxurious vehicle. I do have to agree that a lot of the Subie arguments are getting pretty stale. I have made an effort to avoid those when talking comparison points.
overtime
I do own a Forester so I guess that makes me a "Subie person" (at least since the Classic Cars fora disappeared). My car has not been flawless and has suffered from both of the more common complaints associated with first-generation Foresters, i.e. leaky head gaskets and failed rear wheel bearings. Both were repaired promptly and with replacement parts that have not failed. (Whether the failure was due to design flaws or a bad batch of parts I'm not certain.) The treatment I've received from SoA through all this has been a pleasant surprise and, IMO, comparable to what I'd expect from a luxury marque.
That treatment, combined with the improvements in the current generation Forester (not to mention the added power of the XT) have made me a likely candidate for an XT in the next year.
Anyway, that aside I'll get to the point with my argument: I'd be more likely to get a Forester dirty inside and out than either an X3 or FX. My job often requires that I carry materials and equipment in the cargo bay. In addition my hobbies - sea kayaking and antique car restoration - often lead to wet, smelly, dirty things coming along for the ride.
Though I am pretty conscientious about car care and cleaning, scratches and bangs inside and out are inevitable. With the Forester I'd be less likely to lose sleep over them than with the X3 or FX.
Ed
unless of course you mean that Sub uses materials that are easier to clean..
As for me I come from a working class/middle-class background (farmers, factory workers, middle managers) and would now be classified as white collar/professional. That's all I'm willing to divulge about my socioeconomic background.
Having never cleaned a BMW or Infiniti I cannot attest to which is easiest to keep clean. I will say that I've spent a little time in a G35 sedan and came away a bit disappointed in the quality (look/feel) of the interior materials.
Ed
Gimme vinyl with a hose-out interior. ;-)
A little more seriously, I wish Subaru would actually delete a few items from the XT. Gimme the unpainted bumpers and cladding from the X model, I have those now on my '98 L model and would miss them a lot. Make the cargo liner thicker rubber and make it standard. Gotta catch those spills. Carpet just wears so I could even do without that. Definitely delete the auto climate control.
For the same price? I like the FX but I can't even see out of it. The cargo area isn't even close to big enough, our stroller alone would fill it up.
The BMW X3 would be tempting, for the same price. My fear would be that relatives would immediately hit me up for loans. Really.
Minus the luxury badge I would have to drive the two. I would pick mostly on fun and utility. I'd take my 2 kids and let them run around inside and pound the interior. If doing that in the Bimmer made me cringe (which seems likely), I'd have to pass. I'd also test fit our stroller, port-a-crib, and other baby paraphernalia.
Then the drive would be the bigger factor. Ride must be tolerable, can't wake a napping baby now. Beyond that, I'd look for good off the line acceleration, passing, handling, steering, braking, plus the feedback from each of those systems. For instance, M-B have great brakes but lousy feedback IMO.
I think it would be a close (and fun) race.
-juice
This might be a reason for getting the vehicle with the badge vs. not.
Also, not having a family, I would agree with vsroman about the looks being a factor (picking up dates). The handling characteristics would also be an issue, where the FX and BMW X3 excel vs. the XT.
For the price, the XT is the way to go. For the "Gotta-have-it" factor, the X3 and FX are on par.
Good point above, what if I didn't have a family? Well that might just put the FX back on my list, so long as it had that backup camera.
Where you live is also a big factor. I was driving on Rockville Pike (MD-355) yesterday, there are pot holes and craters from all the plowing and chemicals they put on the streets. No way, no how, could I own 20" rims, even though I'd love the handling, the ride would be absolutely intolerable around here. Even 18" would be questionable.
But then I also remember Taos, New Mexico. It was so cold there that they'd plow and lay sand, but not the salt and chemicals that they do here. The roads were MUCH better, so lower profile tires would be more tolerable.
So if we were empty nesters living in Taos, the FX would move up in the ranks, no doubt.
If I had to pick a car to take my mother-in-law to the Opera at the Kennedy Center (not that I would, but bear with me), I think the Bimmer would be a good choice to pull up to the VIP Valet Parking. It would feel more at home at the Country Club, also.
For day-to-day family duties, with a dog putting nose prints on the windows and the 2 kids having a food fight in the back, dodging pot holes left and right, what would you pick? Honestly?
Sadly that's the reality of my driving! Those twisty country roads sure look good in the brochures, but where are they? LOL
-juice
Add a huge walk-in closet to keep the wife happy. ;-)
-juice
We went up to Congressional Plaza, you should see the right lane heading south bound. They haven't patched the pot holes yet. They'll patch it soon, then probably re-pave it later.
You survivin' those Baltimore City pot holes? Those could eat an entire Geo Metro! ;-)
-juice
-juice
Bob
Steve, Host
Any how, did you watch NBC-4 news yesterday? It was hilarious, they had a timely report on all the potholes in the area caused by the snow/ice and all the plowing and chemicals.
With 16" rims, the 225/60R16 tires on my Forester absorb them pretty well. The sidewall is 135mm.
But I also have a Miata, size 185/60R14, and with just 111mm of sidewall the bumps are pretty bad. My CD player skips on some of them.
So I could see 17" rims on a Forester, maybe. With a Plus One you lose 25.4 mm total tire height, divide by two and it's 12.7mm less sidewall for every inch up in wheel size.
18" rims on a Forester would basically ride like my Miata, so I'd pass.
Of course I realize the FX has a bigger overall tires size so the 18" rims still probably have a pretty good sidewall.
The dubs are madness! ;-) They do look schweet though. Kind of the opposite of many SUVs, which appear to have rims too small for their size, for instance the CR-V has just 15" rims.
-juice
FWIW the Forester has a full size spare, I think the X3 and FX have donuts.
My wife's Legacy had a donut and I actually replaced it with a full size wheel and tire. She's already used it once.
-juice
Ditto on the full size spares - my luck runs like Juice's wife. And we have relatively few potholes around here. Curbs are my nemesis. I get one or two flats a year and often in the boonies.
Steve, Host
http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2585
I think the X3 will sell well, if only because it's the lowest priced BMW SUV.
I think BMW could put their logo on a pet rock and people would buy it just to own the key chain.
The drops in sales in the other models don't surprise me, every new BMW model is uglier than the car it replaced. Run and get a left over 5 series, for a while they had a $4000 incentive, that would have been a real catch.
-juice
If there is any justice in the world, BMW will take a huge hit as the direct result of Bangle's uglification program, and he will then be summarily dismissed without any opportunity to foul up future replacements.
However, the current 3-series hasn't yet suffered from his curse. If anything, I'd expect sales figures for current 3-series cars to be going through the roof as Bimmophiles rush to buy them before the next generation replaces them. If I were in the market for a 3 anytime in the next year or two, I'd be buying one today. If there was a 4-door or wagon version of the M3, I probably already would have bought.
Pretty Bizarre. GM promoted the guy who designed the Aztek, too.
S4 is just lovely, but a lots and lots of ex-Audi owners end up in Subies because they weren't happy with Audi reliability. Who doesn't know at least one person that was burned by a VW or Audi lemon?
-juice
However, my hands-down favorite engine layout has always been the inline six. There's nothing sweeter, and (IMO) nobody has ever done a better one than what's in today's M3. If BMW offered an M3x AWD wagon, that's what I'd be driving today instead of an XT.
If he doesn't get the axe, let's hope he gets promoted to a figurehead position where he can never again degrade the look of future BMWs.
Audi's Avants are among the most handsome cars in the market at any price.
-juice
I'm not buying it for a second. It's a titular deal... spin at its greatest... a platinum parachute. A direct firing of him would be the most negative PR imagineable... an admission of guilt and suicide for their sales.
-juice
I've been a BMW (and VW/ Audi) fan for a long time - they deserve to lose their shirts over this Bangle debacle. I was at my BMW dealer the other day and the lot was full of new cars, a huge row of ugly Z4's, quite a few hideous 7's and a few nasty 5's. I saw one X3 which I think is almost as ugly as the others. They had a good supply of 3 series of all types and a few X5's. When I leased my 01 X5 this dealers lot never had very many cars in it.
This forum is turning way too warm and fuzzy for me:
If I had to choose between the X5 and the Forester XT today I'd probably opt for the XT - no kidding.
That XT ad doesn't publish the XT's most impressive performance spec: 97 mph in the quarter, with a 13.8 sec ET. These numbers aren't empty claims by Subaru; they're the results of Car & Driver's complete road test from the August issue.
I always tweak my performance cars in the aftermarket and base my performance car decision on what suspension and engine enhancements are available for it in the aftermarket.
All that said I can tell you that the XT has a huge, huge amount of untapped potential. That 5.3 0-60 is nothing but a starting point. It is true that the XT is based on the Impreza which has a rich race and rally heritage. It's engine is based on the same 2.5 litre 300 HP monster that's in my STi (0-60 in 4.7 stock)- the internals are identical, the only difference is the XT has a smaller turbo and intercooler, the engine management is more conservative as is the exhaust system. The aftermarket is just now starting to develop meaningful engine management for my STi, adding another 100 crank HP will cost me a little over $2k. The STi suspension is increadable but Subaru markets Japanese JDM parts over here that take it to the next level. Everything is painted bright pink, I'm in the process of installing pink springs, lateral links and control arms in my STi for even better handling - the STi holds 97 g's on a skidpad stock - that's Ferrari territory, these enhancements will take it to another level. Add another 100 HP and it'll hang right with the really exotic european performance cars.
Anyway - Everything I'm doing to the STi would bolt right up to the XT, Subaru markets STi pink springs specifically for the XT (lowers it a little over an inch), the lateral links and control arms bolt right on, STi struts, sway bars. The engine can easily and relativly cheaply be taken to 300 HP (way beyond for more $$). All this would cost maybe $4k and you'd be blowing the doors off C5 Vetts and Cobra Mustangs in the XT - forget a 350Z and you'd be hanging right on the back bumper of a $60k BMW M3, even when the road gets twisty. Plus it wouldn't lose the everyday practicality for the family of 5 and dog. AND you could take to the auto cross course and track events on the weekends and terrorize just about everything there with some practice. With that level of performance you'd want to upgrade the brakes though - another $3k+. The STi has the most increadable Brembo brake system of any car I've ever driven standard - which would bolt right onto an XT, it's more in the range of a $6k braking system.
most Porsches and you Subaru.
A good friend of mine sold his M Coupe for an STi after I got mine, the STi is a way more potent performance car. Another friend has an 03 M3 SMG cabrio that I regularly embarras.
It really is ironic that Bangle did what he did to BMW's - turned them into ugly lumps. It proves that the typical BMW lemming would buy a Yugo if it had the blue and white propeller on the hood - how pathetic - and I drive one.
I could care less what the Subaru looks like - I bought it for it's performance.
BMW is not the end all be all performance car it once was. Before the M3 I owned a 911 and can tell you without a doubt the STi will out perform any 911 except a turbo or GT2/ 3. Bring on your ugly M5 V10 lump - the current M5 is not even the remotest competition to an STi, I have a friend with one of those too.
Or you could dump $10k in aftermarket enhancements into a Forester XT and do the same thing for a total of $35k - that alone makes me want to rethink the X5 purchase. You have no idea how much I'd like to terrorize the gold chain wearing BMW M3 crowd in a Forester XT.
Steve, Host
Hey thanks for the compliments! If my Subaru was a teenage boy's dream car then I'd be embarrassed to drive it for fear of being accused of having a mid-life crisis! And if the fashion conscious US public (with its overwhelming emphasis on form over substance) was infatuated with the XT then I'd really be second guessing my purchase :-) As far as German drivers are concerned, I do hold them in high regard but they pretty much don't like SUVs period (which they view as a useless sacrifice of handling). In fact BMW doesn't even sell the X5 in Germany right? Does the same hold true for the X3?
-Frank P.
It may not mean much to Bangle-haters, as his replacement is reportedly a Bangle disciple.
Interesting to note, despite all the criticism here and elsewhere, the Bangle-styled 5-series has been a big hit in the USA, but not so in Europe.
Bob
What the country-club badge-buying set doesn't seem to appreciate is that what you wrote above is exactly why we prefer our Subarus.
If Subaru is so great why are their sales so low compared to BMW? I guess you guys are right and the US public and Germany are wrong.
Exactly. Proving, once again, that P.T. Barnum was more right than he ever realized.
Most people that own BMW's like the looks, the looks are a lot better than any Subaru model.
Not since Bangle's debacle.
I think the 3 Series is too conservative and needs to be updated more like the 5 series.
Note to BMW: If you want to completely destroy your one remaining good-looking model range, follow Scott's advice and restyle it to look like the new 5-series.